GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Vintage Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Scratch on March 05, 2012, 01:32:34 PM
-
There's a question that's been bugging me and I hope that the collectors here can shed some light my way.
I have an affection for old guns and have restored a few.
Lately I've become very interested in AG's, particularly the Benjamin 392 as my first purchase.
Naturally I also have been looking at the offerings in used models at online auctions.
Earlier models of these, including Crosman/Sheridan, appearance wise, resemble the BenJ 392. Those that show up are generally 1n the $100 to $150 range.
My question is:
Is there any real value in purchasing one of the earlier models, construction, materials, etc. outside of nastalgia.
Besides the auction price, I'm sure that a reseal is generally in order. It may also need worn parts replaced and there is always the possibility of a shot out barrel. Would not a new 392 be the smarter purchase particularly since they appear so similar.
Lastly please be assured that I'm not trying to wet any one off.
The reason I'm asking is that I do have an interest in restoring vintage rifles. i enjoy reading thet posts and pictures that many of you present.
Thank you for any help.
Scratch
-
Not so sure I can shed any light but I will say that there appears to be at least two categories of the 392. The early guns are known as "transition models" and can be easily identified by the stamped metal trigger guard (like on a Blue Streak) and a rear sliding tab safety as on the Benjamin 342. (Haven't had a 342 but my 392's looks the same.) Some of these have a New York address, as well. The later guns are those with the cast trigger guard and cross-bolt safety. If I were buying a 392, it would be the later gun. My old model is nice but the trigger is pretty stiff and there is not much can be done with it. The new guns have some tweaks which can be performed and there was something called a Big Ed's SuperSear that reportedly gives them a much better pull. (I think Charlie was in on that venture so you can figure it is a pretty good product.) Nicest thing about either 392 is the ability to mount the Williams 5D peep sight.
Oh, yes, forgot to address the pricing question. I, personally, would not pay a premium for a transition model. While I guess it is of interest to collectors, the new guns are probably superior as regards actual performance. Again, it's that trigger.
-
Many thanks RedFeather.
You have helped me greatly as this will be my first airgun.
I like the traditional look of the Benj 392 and feel its a good fit for me.
I'll research that trigger and any other tweaks that can be done by myself.
Don't think I'll do a peep sight. Old man eyes.
Probably go for a scope.
-
Im finding that a peep is a nice choice at closer distances.
Thanks RedFeather ... I learned something too.
-
As I've said before, with old guns, much of the value depend on your own values. :)
I like old guns, and I will at times pay more than the *market value* because I want the particular gun. I would never try to make it into a profitable business though. :D
-
I can give you the benefit of my personal experience.... I've purchased a few Crosman 140s, 114's, and a 1400.... They cost me an average of $100 plus shipping each.... I spent about 25 hours per gun, on average, stripping, resealing, rebluing all the metal, and refinishing the stocks.... They have all sold for about $250 each including shipping.... That works out to about $4.00 per hour, plus materials....
I can catagorically say that there is NO money to be made in restoring vintage Crosmans.... I did it to learn about them, and I happen to delight in turning a dingy old Crosman stock into the thing of beauty that lies beneath.... Do I regret doing it?.... a most definite NO.... Will I do it again?.... only if the right gun comes along, cheap, and I have nothing better to do....
Bob
-
I'm with lizzie.... I'll buy a particular gun solely because it strikes a chord with me....if It's a good deal and worth something ,that's just icing on the cake.
Just do what makes ya feel good.
-
<Is there any real value in purchasing one of the earlier models, construction, materials, etc. outside of nastalgia.>
Indeed there is! Quality. The older Model C Sheridans and 312/317/342/347 Benjamins were just built better. The triggers wear in over time and use to be delightful---no lawyer in THEIR design teams! The newer guns have various parts made of plastic and the valves on some are being made of aluminum leading to dissimilar metal corrosion that can destroy a gun in as little as a couple of years in a worst-case scenario. The older 'Dans & Benjis were brass and bronze inside and out. My '49-'51 Silver Streak is still operating just fine from it's last rebuild---the early/mid 60s of the past century. The brass valve components in my 1948 Model 101 Crosman were only dirty with aged oil and grime when I resealed it a few months ago.
I doubt any of the 'engineering plastic' on current production will even exist when the guns reach their 60s.
<Don't think I'll do a peep sight. Old man eyes.>
'Old man eyes' do just fine with a peep since an aperture actually functions as a focusing lens. My 72 year old eyes really prefer a GOOD peep like the Williams.
<I have an affection for old guns and have restored a few.---The reason I'm asking is that I do have an interest in restoring vintage rifles.>
You're instincts are good----follow them & they won't lead you astray.
But---ENJOY!---whatever course you pursue. HTH, Tom @ Buzzard Bluff
-
just bought two guns at auction, a 392p racine wisconsin 392a 91 model i believe and a 342 new old stock in box, personal experience, the 342s were the best guns in my opinion, the rifling is a little different, every one i have ,and i have 3 is a tack driver, they outshoot my 392s. the stock and steroids, i dont think the barrels really get worn down bad on these guns, the best guide is the value to you, the 342 i paid 325 for new old stock in box never fired , its absolutely mint, i have never seen one in this condition , i prefer them over the 312 ,392 stho i do like those , the 392 p , the racine wisconsin guns are supposedly better guns and they do seem beefier , you absolutely cant go wrong with the old 20 clal sheridans either , these guns as far as value , i also percieve them as works of art
-
generally speaking, with regard to the multi-pumps, older is better. "they don't make em like they used to"
Better materials were used. As time progressed, rising costs, caused many to substitute cheaper (yet still decent) materials or processes into the equation.
I was going to say some more, but i see that Tom's already covered it.
The new guns are still a good buy. There are some advantages that others have already covered with the new ones.
pre-tapped for the peep sight is a BIG one.
I own a '64 and a newer 392, and i honestly prefer the wood's stock shape of the '64, safety... i just wish it'd been pre-tapped for the sight. It feels better to pump and aim the older one.
-
Good replies, folks, and I do agree that the even earlier guns (true Benjamins and Sheridans) are even better guns. I only addressed the 392 since that was the specific gun he was asking about. If I were looking for an older pneumatic pumper, it would be a rocker safety Streak, 342/347 or Crosman 1400. The Crosman might be available for a bit less and have a following comparable to the Streaks.
The number one thing to look for in an old air gun is condition. If you purchase a gun at a bargain price and it's missing a rear sight, etc, you may end up literally buying a second gun for the part. Something to factor in to the original purchase. This is exactly the same as purchasing an old car for restoration. It's always much, much better in the long run to pay even a premium for a good specimen than to pick up a "barn find" only to end up spending even more during the restoration.
-
well stated point red, usually tho your going to pay more for a good quality but like you said will be worth it if you dont have to buy 3 guns to make one, i absolutely prefer the 342 , picked one up new in box old stock was siting in a closet for 26 years , never saw one in thi great condition , its 99 percent , prob is when i pump it , it catches a vacuum sometimes and sometimes it doesnt .have it soaking in pell gun oil with six pumpsand i take it out and heat it slowly with a dryer for a half hour very day, will keep it like this for a week and hope is helps those seals , got this gun in the box looks brand new no fade no tears , but the real value to me is when i can finally shoot it!!!
-
Yeah, they don't shoot, it's kind of pointless. I picked up a late model Milbro for not a whole lot. Sort of like a Diana 27. The seller shipped it in two parts and I couldn't find the trigger spring which is for adjusting the sear contact on this model. Emailed and he said there was this little spring left over on his bench, checked his waste paper basket and found it. The spring arrived a few days later and looking a bit sketchy. At first I thought it was the wrong spring as it didn't really fit or work well. Kind of squished up. Turns out it was probably a ball point spring and not the original. I tried about a half dozen springs stretched and trimmed a dozen times. Still sitting there with no spring. Chambers has them, so I'll probably have to order from them and pay the freight. Such a deal I got! :D :D :D
-
it happens , sounmds like the gun is worth it tho, , this 342 definately is, going to be patient have it under prssure 6 pumps hopping it will pressure form back into shape, will give it a week if not will reseal
-
Thanks gentlemen:
Your replies have piqued my interest again.
I understand about the quality from years gone by.
Springs: I have have a small collection from reworking triggers.
Seals: Are seals still available for some of these older models. I understand that some of them were leather. Possible to refabricate?
-
You can get parts or have resealed almost any pumper. The older Streaks don't need any trigger work.
-
had to send the 342 out , tried to keep it pumped hoping it would reform dsat too long in box tho sent ti to a feller named dave gunter in oregaom very meticulous
-
"Your replies have piqued my interest again."
Excellent!!!!
"Springs: I have a small collection from reworking triggers."
Even better! My spring collection (assembled from many widely diverse sources) is my treasure! Seldom am I stumped by a recalcitrant trigger.
"Seals: Are seals still available for some of these older models. I understand that some of them were leather. Possible to re fabricate?"
Easily! Google "making a new leather piston seal" and jump back! In short it's as easy as drilling an appropriately sized hole in a piece of wood and pressing a piece of thoroughly water-saturated leather into it with a male plug (sockets are traditional) allowing it to dry, trimming to length and treating it with silicone oil before installation.
But if you're in need of parts for domestically built airguns then Ron Sauls at Bryan & Assoc. in S. Caroline is THE man---and the definitive 'Southern Gentleman' to talk to. If he doesn't charm you with knowledge, helpfulness and parts then it's time to check for a personal 'charisma leak'! ;) ;D
For obscure (and common) Euro guns then Chambers in London is extremely helpful.
Failing all else seeking advice at American Vintage Airguns Forum puts you among the experts who delight in helping people revive veterans from ALL sources.
You'll find yourself both surprised and delighted by the sheer eagerness of the airgunning community in keeping veteran airguns alive and well. Enjoy! Tom
-
Did just that, Tom. Surprized, looks very do-able.
Thanks also for the resource: Bryan and Assoc., is not very far from where I intend to settle in S.C..
One more question, please.
Barrels: Replacements possible? Its usually my biggest concern when looking at used powder burners on line.
Scratch
-
"Barrels: Replacements possible?"
Replacing the soldered barrels on Benjis & Sheridans is possible but is generally considered as not economically practical. Tim McMurray at Mac1 re-soldered loose barrels at one time----for a price, but I don't know if he still offers that service at any price since it is so time and labor intensive.
The Crosman guns are much simpler. They have always used a 7/16" OD barrel on everything except the shrouded 'soda straw' barrel guns. I have re-barrelled many Crosmans from the M-101 up with the modern 24" Crosman .22 cal. 2260 barrel or 1760 barrel in .177. I use the same barrels on many custom builds as well. They are readily available from Crosman Customer Service when in stock for extremely reasonable prices. Should you order a custom barrel length from any of the services that offer them you may be confident that it has been cut to length and re-machined from a Crosman barrel unless specified otherwise.
The only caveat is that the Crosman barrels---while generally quite good---can vary in accuracy from batch to batch. Whenever a particularly accurate batch comes along I try to stock up for future needs. HTH, Tom
-
The Crosman 114s, etc. (CO2 rifles and pistols of that era) had the barrel soldered to the breech and main tube, and the front sight was soldered on.... I'm pretty sure even the back half of the valve is soldered in, along with the stock bolt, IIRC....
Bob
-
Interesting...thanks Bob.
If the price was right for a damaged gun, I think I would attempt the re-soldering.
Always willing to learn.
Whenever a particularly accurate batch comes along I try to stock up for future needs.
Makes sense. 8)
I need to do more research as some of these old timers are in there own class.
Scratch
-
The Crosman 114s, etc. (CO2 rifles and pistols of that era) had the barrel soldered to the breech and main tube, and the front sight was soldered on.... I'm pretty sure even the back half of the valve is soldered in, along with the stock bolt, IIRC....
Bob
Thanks for pointing that out Bob! I obviously suffered a brainfart at that juncture.;o) Tom
-
I'm a collector and try to pay as little as i can just like anyone else so what i do is get a price in my head just what i want to pay for a gun i want and dont go over that price. Time is on your side if you can wait for that price to come. Most of the time i buy a gun that don't work but is in mint condition and do the repair myself big savings that way. As far as value if you have the money and really want something then buy it. I go to yard sales flee markets and gun shows all the time and do find real good deals. Post ads on the internet and the forums of what your looking for.
Mike 8)
-
i come by mine mostly by auction , but have picked a few up via yardsale , ya never know when that pearl of your eye is going to pop up
-
I have the feeling that I will eventually own a lot of old Dianas. The old models can be found on auctions here for cheap, and quite often.
I like old technical things that work well and look almost like new. Very satisfying for me.
The price being low anyway, I will spend more for a decent piece.