GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: parkerd on February 14, 2012, 10:56:29 PM
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I'm on a budget and both of these guns are available at the local wally world! ;D So which one is better I like the idea of having a .22 but is it Chinese made? Which is better for out of the box accuracy also could someone school me on the hold sensitive idea and how to fix it?
Thanks,Parker
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I would go with the beeman. Its most likely chinese made. Both guns need to be broken in to shoot accurately. You can research the artillery hold on youtube and practice once you get a rifle. Fixing the hold sensitive idea is learning how to shoot using the artillery hold. Either that or getting a rifle thats not so hold sensitive.
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Yup the Dual Cal RS2 is made in China. I have one. I LOVE it. Mine had issues with barrel droop, though, even with the factory supplied scope, but it was easily compensated....I didn't have a bad problem with it until I went to larger scope. It's a little more expensive than the Phantom but it's a better made gun.
I had pretty fair accuracy out of the box. The little .177 crosmans I've dealt with had a longer break-in period, but you can expect to have to run a tin of pellets through either rifle before you have a settled shooter.
I keep reading about this "hold sensitive" thing but I have yet to experience it. I have been shooting rifles of all varieties my whole life and can't tell what I'm supposed to be doing different with my air rifles. Once I got my optics dialed in my patterns tightened up a lot and it doesn't seem to matter how I hold the gun.
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I have the beeman ram22, same as the dual caliber but is only .22 and comes with a bigger scope. I have not put in on a chrony but have shot it next to a crosman quest in .177, and the beeman is more accurate(out of the box), this is mainly because of the trigger IMHO, but also the fit and finish is better on the beemans. I would tell you that the beeman was more powerful as well but that is hard to say since the crosman was not a .22. Mine shoots around 1/2" at 20-30 yards.
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If you were really needing to save money, though, I would still dodge the Phantom. I don't know why but I just don't like it. I would rather have the Quest or Ruger Air Hawk for just $10 more a piece.
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With the Crosman line of spring rifles figure on about $32 more for and aftermarket trigger. The Beeman triggers may need some if little polishing but are adjustable. The Ruger Airhawk know to be sold at Walmart is a copy of the RWS 34 also has an adjustable trigger.
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Both made in China, both under $100. I recommend the RS2 because I have it and it is great, the Beeman has a hardwood stock, and the Beeman is in two calibers.
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Alright a couple more questions! I hear alot of people taking the screws and putting Loctite into them? What does that do!? I had a Ruger Air Hawk but got one that couldnt shoot goups at 10 yards.. I put over 250 Pellets through it.. I only really shoot CPHP's because there cheap and shoot well.. Do these shoot well out of the Beeman?
Thanks,Parker
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Another Vote for the Beeman RS2. Great Rifle for the $$..
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Just my 2 cents but i have the phantom. I bought if off craiglist. A guy had a phantom and crossman nitro 22. I tried them both. Both were accurate. I went with the phantom. I didnt want to deal with 22 cal pellets. I all ready had another 177 and wanted to stay with that. Plus for plinking i didnt see the need for 22. My phantom was broken in all ready which was a plus. I got it for $45. Its very accruate. Shooting dimes at 20 yards. I hear lots of bad things about the beeman. i almost bought one of those too. Some one had one for $70 on craigslist. Just to much info about it not being accurate, plus i know i would never change out the barrel. I only need one barrel. Good luck with what ever you choose. I would like to know how you like the beeman.
Craigslist is a great place to look to look for guns.
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I check Criagslist everyday see alot of Gamo's which isn't my style.... If you haven't checked it out before Look up Tempest.com Criagslist! IT shows everything for sale within a 100 nile radius... I have a .22 and love it so I would much rather a have a .22 What about the Titan GP I think? 149.00$ at Wally if I remember correctly Jim shockey is on the front of it!?
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I would suggest you read up on Crosman quality control here http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,25899.0.html (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,25899.0.html)
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,24850.msg225983.html#msg225983 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,24850.msg225983.html#msg225983)
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,24664.0.html (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,24664.0.html)
and many other threads. $149 for titan is before the mods that many people feel are needed for this gun such as new trigger and new scope. Add shipping onto to those mods and you are going to be way up there in cost. Beeman RS2 .22 at Walmart for $128 already comes with an excellent trigger and 3x9 scope. I've had excellent luck with my Beeman dual caliber one and would buy it again over pretty much any crosman product except for their PCP guns. My last 5 crosman purchases resulted in 1 usable gun.
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Alright a couple more questions! I hear alot of people taking the screws and putting Loctite into them? What does that do!? I had a Ruger Air Hawk but got one that couldnt shoot goups at 10 yards.. I put over 250 Pellets through it.. I only really shoot CPHP's because there cheap and shoot well.. Do these shoot well out of the Beeman?
You really need to review the mass of good advice on this board!
In the meantime you must get a few concepts firmly planted between the ears:
1. Springers shake when shot---violently. Things that shake loosen up. The faster they shoot the more violently they shake.
2. A rifle with loose stock screws and scope mounts will NOT shoot straight! Buy a small bottle of blue LocTite and use it----after thoroughly cleaning both male and female threads of all traces of oil or grease.
3. Springers are highly diet specific. Until you determine what your individual gun likes it will not be accurate. Even consecutively serial numbered guns may not like the same pellet!
4. Even if the rifle is in good fettle and shooting the pellet it prefers it will not shoot straight for YOU unless you master the way it demands to be shot. In most instances that will be the 'artillery hold'.
5. The 'ultra-magnum' springer is the most difficult shoulder fired weapon on earth to shoot accurately.
The Crosman ammo sold by W-M and other big box stores is noted for inconsistency. The CPHP are particularly indicted for widely varying head and/or skirt size.
Until you fully grasp those concepts the chance of you being happy with a springer lies between slim & none.
Harsh? Perhaps---but obviously needed. Tom
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So? Don't waste my time? I have bought 2-3 500 tins of CPHP and they all shoot fine and everything? I have much time to waste so I think I will buy one of these who knows maybe both!?
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Parkerd
CP domes shoot diffently from CPHP. H&N FTT have different sizes in .22 and are reasonably priced. You may try these. Archer Air Guns and Flying Dragon Air Guns have cheap pellets that might work in your rifle if you are lucky.
Crosman, Ruger Air Hawke, lower end Beemans all made in China. Any Chinese air rifle is hit or miss. Best option on Chinese air rifle is to have it professionally tuned
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How much does that cost?
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I have the RS2 Beeman and Extreme and both are excellent shoothers. I did lube/honing tuning on both and it's day and night difference. The RS2 has a real 2 stage trigger and the crosman has a pseudo 2 stage trigger and will need a trigger upgrade (GRT III) to make it shoot better. I found the RS2 to favor the .22 barrel, IMHO the .177 is overpowered and shoots not as smooth as the .22. The crosman has an articulating cocking and Rs2 has single arm and requires manly arm to cock it.
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CP domes same price as CPHP
H&N FTT $14.50 for 500 tin (watch out for size differences 5.53 about the same as CP at the skirt)
Pyramid Air you buy 4 tins and get one free (check for 10% discount offers) + shipping
Peak Pellets .22 $24.75 flat rate shipping USPS 2000 pellets ^&$@_=s (Flying Dragon Air Rifle had a bulk speacial)
Just my opinion on hold sensitivity. Don't give up on magnum springers to easily. May be the rifle. But could be a lot on the shooter also. A small difference in grip and the way you pull the trigger will change in POI. The recoil has to move in line of fire. Air rifles need more time to exit the muzzle. For me anyway it isn't easy. But can be done with practice. That is why a good tune is emphasized smoother the action the better.
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Thanks I went and shot my Ruger Air hawk just for laughs still cant be accurate with it I'm 90% sure it's the pellets... I'm more than likely gonna go with the RS2 or the dual caliber one hahaha On the box it say's RS2/Grizzlyx2.... Loctite the .22 barrel...
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I would think on the Ruger Air Hawk or any gun one of the quick checks is the muzzle crown. A bad crown will affect accuracy and should be a quick fix usually.
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How do I check the crown?
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Don't have the Beeman dual caliber, but do have the .177 Crosman G1 Extreme (Sister of the Phantom with no open sights). Very accurate and powerful out to 40+ yards. Started to lose accuracy due to barrel sway after 1000+ shots...turned out they put too much lubricant on the barrel pivot bolt. And the lube got into the threads and was loosening the barrel everytime it was being cocked. Once cleaned, Blue Loc-Tited and bolted back in nice and tight....accuracy was back on. Seems the Phantoms and G1s have this problem....haven't read about the other Crosmans doing this (Yet).
As for the Beeman dual caliber I've read that most shooters will end up shooting one caliber. Waste of time to keep on switching calibers/barrels: Barrel off, barrel on, Blue Loc-Tite, wait 24+ hrs. and sight in. Much easier to just buy another rifle.
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I have a .177 crosman phantom for the last 2 years and have had to problems except that the stock spring broke. It is accurate as far as I know, I can hit a quarter at 35 yards with a crappy $15 scope without a bench rest, although not every shot, like 1 in 3, but I'm not a good shot. It is powerful, I recently took a crow at 35 yards with a heart shot, the crow was dead instantly. So far for the price I like it, but I'm not very expierenced.
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If you decide to give up on your air hawk I'll trade you some wire figures for it :). I'm looking for a project .177.
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Haha I put it on Craigslist and I'm meetin a guy here... But when I buy the RS2 I will prolly put the barrel for sale if you want it..
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For the RS2, if you are planning to stay with .22 caliber I would get the dedicated .22 at walmart, not the dual barrel one. The .22 version (not dual barrel) comes with the 3x9 scope for $128. The dual barrel one has a 4x scope.
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For the RS2, if you are planning to stay with .22 caliber I would get the dedicated .22 at walmart, not the dual barrel one. The .22 version (not dual barrel) comes with the 3x9 scope for $128. The dual barrel one has a 4x scope.
It could be a 2~50000 X ∞ and still not be worth keeping lol...in general, anyway. I'm sure some of them are decent but the China-Beeman scopes have been pretty lackluster in my (limited) experience. I would buy the cheaper one just to have the few extra dollars to put toward a better scope.
Haha I put it on Craigslist and I'm meetin a guy here... But when I buy the RS2 I will prolly put the barrel for sale if you want it..
How much are you asking? If your current arrangement falls through and you got a good askign price I may bite...
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I agree with Makenzie, mine came with the Beeman 3-9x and is a pretty sorry scope. focus is not adjustable and it is fairly dim as far as 32mm scopes go. That said it does hold zero and if you don't mind leaving it on 3x or 4x it is usable.
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Parkerd
This is kind of late. I was skimming through this thread. I was just wondering if you had ever cleaned the factory grease out of the barrel?
As for the barrel crown. Take off the muzzle break. The crown would look like some sort of countersink. Different guns have different types of cuts when crowned. The crown should be clean, smooth and even.
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No I haven't... I don't have very many tool's to do the job though... But if you could give me a simpple how to with stuff at home I might be able to... I some Hoppes NO.9 and a few rods but no cleaning patches..
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parkerd: A lot of good info in this thread for you to digest but, don't go into info-overload! I made a quick summary for you below with a priority from 1 to 5 for spring gun shooting/accuracy. (IMHO)
1) Inspect, clean and lube any new spring gun, including cleaning the barrel, silcone oil on breech seals and... check all stock screws and trigger guard fasteners etc and clean and tighten as needed ( a little blue Loctite after cleaning threads of all oils)
2) Use a good mid-weight pellet, dome shape or wadcutter to start out with and for accuracy checks and consistency, at least for the first 100 or so shots. Don't use any of the so-called alloy/ultra lite pellets, they aren't accurate and worse, they will harm the gun from spring fatigue and piston slamming. Fast doesn't equal accurate.
3) The guns mentioned can both be good, the Beeman get's a lot of good comments and the Wally-world connection makes it a no brainer if you don't like it or it has quality issues. Beeman or Crosman, a break barrel may have barrel droop from day one, you can compensate for this with a very thin shim of plastic, brass or aluminum on the REAR scope mount, lower cradle. Just use a .020" or less thickness so you don't tweek your scope tube from stress. Gently tighten from rear to front and repeat until all mount screws are tight but not "death grip" tight. Use a little blue Loctite on these screws too. If your scope has plenty of vertical adjustment, then you can ignore the barrel droop issue completely, for now.
4) Trigger and "artillery hold" stuff. This could take days so I'll cut to it... The artillery hold simply means letting the gun recoil without influencing it by a heavy-handed grip on the forearm or the pistol grip area of the stock. The butt-pad should be square and vertical in your shoulder but, not held tightly like you would a 12 gage shotgun or magnum rifle. Ok, so is that a 100% rule? No! My HW97K will shoot lights-out no matter how I hold it, even on a bag or rest. You will need to experiment a little with greater and lesser grip on the gun stock until you find the sweet-spot. Likewise, trigger control is important and is not much different than a powder-burner. Your trigger finger pad is all that should touch the trigger and.. keep that finger clear of the stock or other influences at the same time. If your stock trigger is too heavy or grungy, the levers and sear can be polished and moly lubed but don't grind away any of the sear or engagement shapes, that can be dangerous.
5) Start shooting at paper at 20 yards if you have that distance available and keep at it till you are satisfied. At minimum, pellets at 20 yards should always be in a 1.0" bullseye, that's plenty good for figuring out your Hold, Pellet Type and Trigger Control. If you can plant e'm in a 1" circle at 20 yards, over and over again, move out to 30 and eventually 50.
Sorry for the long-winded response but, why go crazy over your spring gun when guys like me (and others here) have already done it for you!?
PS you can check the Crown of the barrel by taking a q-tip and gently rub it around the end of the rifling where it meets the face or crown of the barrel. If it snags or the surface pulls any of the fibers away, you probably need a Crowning. That's a whole other subject but, it can be done with simple tools and a hand drill.
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You can make yourself with any of these springers. Like it was suggested earlier. Do a lot research on GTA about hold's, tune's, trigger, and pellets. I believe with the effort and practice you can get just about any them to perform. Trigger and pellet choice seem to be the fastest and easiest way to get them close. ( under and inch @ 20 yds) the tunes and specifice holds will dial you in from there.
You can order pellet samplers from PA and get several styles and weights for the cost on one tin and try them. You'll be amazed at what different pellets do. ( Diet sensitive can be an understatement )
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If you have a question on any subject go to a gate and on the top right there is a search window. For cleaning a barrel on a airgun being the barrel is a softer metal than a PB (powder burning) gun it is not recommended to use cleaning rods. There are different opinions on cleaning but a lot of people use Goo Gone should be easy to find. Get some weed eater line melt one end of it and make a nub at one end to keep patches from slipping off and a sharp point on the other end. You need to get some patches. Clean the barrel with the Goo Gone till clean then with a dry patch till dry. You may need to shoot a tin of pellet to season the barrel for accuracy to get better. If accuracy improves do not clean the barrel till accuracy starts to fail again. Some like clean their barrel every few hundred shots. Lots of different opinions on this.
What Saade suggest is good info. If you get into a lot of shooting you need to learn to tear down your gun and learn minor lube tuning. Most air guns at your price range need cleaning even where the spring and seal are in the commpression tube. In my opinion the air gun should be torn down and cleaned and inspected before shooting.
Check the China Gate if you haven't yet. There is a post on a Tuned Ruger Air Hawk
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To Lube do I just take it apart and rub all the oils from the screws and such!? I'm still quite a novice to AG's...
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Clean threads with rubbing alcohol or windex unitl no black stuff shows up on rag, do the screws and the holes they went into on the gun.
As for other cleaning and lubing, there is a ton o' info in our Library and on the web, waay to much for here but, just remember the 3 primary rules of lubing spring guns...
1) Never put any flammable oils or liquids into the piston/chamber (the little hole that emits air into the barrel) one drop of PURE silcone oil is ok now and then but that's all.
2) Use silcone oil on your breech seals to wipe them clean (the small o-ring shaped seal on the barrel/breech where the pellet goes) Harsh detergent oils will eat up most o-rings, don't use automotive oils.
3) A light coat of moly grease on your trigger parts will help but.. if you are not ready to tear into that trigger just yet, then just flush out the trigger housing with spray WD-40 or LP type lube and then clean & dry as best as possible.
Read up on how to clean and lube your mainspring, it is not easy to do without a tear down of the gun so be careful. If you can see most of the spring thru a slot, then work on cleaning with q-tip or chopsticks and rags etc, don't leave q-tip stuff and rags in there, and do the same after cleaning with a heavy tar-like grease, not moly or lightweight greases.
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There are some videos on Youtube it may give you some basics. Different spring guns may have a different procedure usually at the trigger location. Pyramid air has a ton of written information on different subjects on airguns and airgun reviews. Even has a series called Airgun Academy.
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Thanks guys!! Saade I did the mainspring part I don't have any Silicone oil that I could find but man that mainspring had a bunch of junk in it went through about 15 Q-Tips and everyone except the last was coated in black.. Can this effect the gun?
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Thanks guys!! Saade I did the mainspring part I don't have any Silicone oil that I could find but man that mainspring had a bunch of junk in it went through about 15 Q-Tips and everyone except the last was coated in black.. Can this effect the gun?
OK, you did good, now lube the spring coils as best you can with a very heavy grease, almost like tar. Just take your time and your "chopstick" and get a film onto as much of the coils as you can, not heaping gobs o' grease, just a good solid film. All the grease does is dampen some of the vibration, so keep it out of the trigger parts and the piston area (front of spring nearest to the breech). This won't be a perfect lube job on the spring but that's ok, some of the grease will migrate across the coils anyway. Everything else is hinge pins or cocking linkage and friction areas so just use a good, clean gun oil and keep it out of the chamber/piston area for those areas.
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Could you give me a brand or anything? I mean I do have tar! ;) haha What about WD-40? OR is that a big no no?
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You need some molly based grease in the piston chamber. Just because the there will be a lot of heat generated and cause detonation of the grease. Some use moly grease used on Honda motorcycles for the main spring. There is moly grease in any automotive store. The best to use would be moly grease and spring tar grease from Air Rifle Headquaters (online store). The spring tar will smooth out firing cycle and get rid of spring twang. The piston chamber must cleaned out really clean. When adding moly grease to piston seal and a little on the rear of piston just a little (less the better). When putting piston back in the cylinder be careful not to damaged the piston seal. It would better to file all sharp edges on what ever slots in the cylinder before cleaning.
WD-40 is more like a cleaning solvent base not as good lubricant.
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Thanks for jumpin in there Kailua,
And NO, NO, WD-40, it will detonate/diesel and burn stuff like seals!
It's fine fo cleaning parts or in the trigger guts but not near the compression chamber or piston.
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I think I forgot to mention moly lubes are non petroleum.