GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Benjamin Airguns => Topic started by: SquirrelSniper25 on February 12, 2012, 01:26:01 PM
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I'd like to start off by saying thanks to Nate the airgunner for letting me in on his secret hold for the trail xl 1100. I explained to him on Facebook how my trail was shooting baracudas good one day, and not the next, and the poi was changing. He informed me to try tightening my hold a little instead of laying the rifle flat on my palm. All I can say is that changed everything in my group sizes. I get about a .75 5 shot group with Baracudas at 20 yards and groups under .5" with the Beeman FTS at that range are possible also! Can't wait to see what a GRT III will do to these groups! :D :D :D
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anytime trev! :D
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The GRTIII will make your smile bigger! ;D
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My XL is exactly the same, likes a nice firm grip. Glad to hear you got your dialed in :)
Jeff
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The GRTIII will make your smile bigger! ;D
That's what I've heard. Just gotta save a few more pennies. LOL! ;)
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I thought you had just recently sold your Trail Np Xl?
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I thought you had just recently sold your Trail Np Xl?
Nope, I thought I had. I guess my asking price was too high. Oh well, I don't need to sell it anyway. :D
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I don't have a XL but have found that a firmer grip works best with my Gamos. I like to snug up the gun to my shoulder with a fairly tight grasp on the pistol grip and fore hand. This way I know I have it shouldered in a good place, then I relax my grip a bit as I exhale and squeeze the trigger. This works for me in all shooting positions.
I have never had any luck with the classic artillery hold as described so often and couldn't imagine hunting with the loosey goosey when winded or on less than ideal ground. Once when experimenting with the open palm, I actually missed my 4'X8' back stop at 20yds! I find that if my scope is still on target after the recoil my hold is working.
-T
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anytime trev! :D
What's your youtube?
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anytime trev! :D
What's your youtube?
Its named after my Favorite airgun, Its BENJItrailNPxl110, some of the videos are very amateur, but I havent the gear and equipment to make them 5 star quality.
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anytime trev! :D
What's your youtube?
Its named after my Favorite airgun, Its BENJItrailNPxl110, some of the videos are very amateur, but I havent the gear and equipment to make them 5 star quality.
Ahh, i've already been subbed to you for a few months lol.
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This is interesting, I have been shooting my Benjamin Trail XL with a loose hold and have been terrible results. I going to try a tighter hold and see if that helps.
Thanks
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This is interesting, I have been shooting my Benjamin Trail XL with a loose hold and have been terrible results. I going to try a tighter hold and see if that helps.
Thanks
It will most liekly help.
anytime trev! :D
What's your youtube?
Its named after my Favorite airgun, Its BENJItrailNPxl110, some of the videos are very amateur, but I havent the gear and equipment to make them 5 star quality.
Ahh, i've already been subbed to you for a few months lol.
Sweet lol,
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I too have found the Trail XL prefers a slightly firmer grip.
I always go through a mental checklist.
Is my front grip still at the same place on the piece of sticky tape I stuck there.
Is my middle grip the same and am I squeezing the trigger straigt backwards?
How does it sit in my shoulder.
I might add that Squeezing the GRT straight bakwards helps accuracy a lot.
If you have any sideways pressure on the trigger then the rifle jumps out of alignment at recoil.
Jim
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Read this yesterday and just had to try it w/my Titan and R7 (yes, even the sweet little R7)...Had nothing to lose but maybe doing away w/flyers and wondering if I was ever gonna actually find the secret light artillery "hold" that seems to be the preference for the AG community...Everything I read tells me to hold the gun lightly...don't force it...you can't overcome bidirectional recoil...blah..blah...blah...all good in intent but doesn't work well for me...Frustratiing.
So I tried it and my groups at 10 yds started shrinking as I played w/it...pull the stock in, grip the fore end tight (trying to find the same place everytime...get consistent)...not so tight...tight again...Took a few shots to make me think everything I've read doesn't apply to me!...Groups w/both guns have tightened up considerably...touching now w/an occasional flyer out maybe 1/4"...bad pellet? Me?...Don't know yet...I'm going to play w/this some more and see if I can get it acceptable...wow...a lot like shooting any rifle as it turns out!...So far so good. I'll try it again when I can get out to 20 yards. Thanks to Squirrelsniper and to Nate for the suggestion. I'd tell any shooter to give it a try. If it helps...good. If not...go back to what you were doing. A simple moment or two and you'll know. It may defy conventional wisdom and lots of preaching but if it works it just works.
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As discussed here
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,11401.msg96061.html#msg96061 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,11401.msg96061.html#msg96061)
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,25380.msg230386.html#msg230386 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,25380.msg230386.html#msg230386)
the artillery hold is touted as something you must do if you own a springer. That is wrong. There are numerous cases where artillery hold is the worst hold you can do. It is one of the holds a person may want to try but there is a lot of misinformation out there saying it is what you have to do to make a springer accurate. Really we need to de-bunk this myth IMO.
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Read this yesterday and just had to try it w/my Titan and R7 (yes, even the sweet little R7)...Had nothing to lose but maybe doing away w/flyers and wondering if I was ever gonna actually find the secret light artillery "hold" that seems to be the preference for the AG community...Everything I read tells me to hold the gun lightly...don't force it...you can't overcome bidirectional recoil...blah..blah...blah...all good in intent but doesn't work well for me...Frustratiing.
So I tried it and my groups at 10 yds started shrinking as I played w/it...pull the stock in, grip the fore end tight (trying to find the same place everytime...get consistent)...not so tight...tight again...Took a few shots to make me think everything I've read doesn't apply to me!...Groups w/both guns have tightened up considerably...touching now w/an occasional flyer out maybe 1/4"...bad pellet? Me?...Don't know yet...I'm going to play w/this some more and see if I can get it acceptable...wow...a lot like shooting any rifle as it turns out!...So far so good. I'll try it again when I can get out to 20 yards. Thanks to Squirrelsniper and to Nate for the suggestion. I'd tell any shooter to give it a try. If it helps...good. If not...go back to what you were doing. A simple moment or two and you'll know. It may defy conventional wisdom and lots of preaching but if it works it just works.
No problem! Glad I could put this out there and help people, I always thought you HAD to shoot a springer with the artillery hold too.
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Hi Guys,
Using my Trail XL, I practiced my hold first across a bag . First the forehand then the pistol grip and trigger and finally the butt against the shoulder.
Attached is a picture showing the results I arrived at eventually at 25, 50 and 75 yds
At 25 yds you see the two 3 shot groups on the left target. I shot the lower group and then adjusted the scope for the 2nd group.
50 Yds group is on the right and 75 yds is above the 25 yard target which shows quite a spread.
Jim
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I have a fairly large springer collection and while I do have a few rifles that respond well to the artillery hold I find that the rest of my springers respond best, for me, with a traditional, firm grip like I use on my PB's.
Jeff
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bobster, thanks for that post. The artillery hold is just a place (method) to begin. For my spring guns, each has a different need for hold; Bronco, grip it and rip it, HW97K any hold will do, I even shot it for a day with loose stcock screws and lost about a whole .25" ctc accuracy! (it's an HW, what can I say?)
Hatsan 95 .177 likes a medium firm hold with zero cant if possible, artillery hold with this rifle is just spray and pray.
I think Mr. Gaylord and others have over-played the universal need for the artllery hold only.
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Hi Guys,
Using my Trail XL, I practiced my hold first across a bag . First the forehand then the pistol grip and trigger and finally the butt against the shoulder.
Attached is a picture showing the results I arrived at eventually at 25, 50 and 75 yds
At 25 yds you see the two 3 shot groups on the left target. I shot the lower group and then adjusted the scope for the 2nd group.
50 Yds group is on the right and 75 yds is above the 25 yard target which shows quite a spread.
Jim
When my trail shoots like that at 25 yards, I'll probably feint. I didn't know you could get that accurate with a springer/nitro piston. Is your trail tuned??? :D
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Tuned?
I installed the GRT trigger and set it pretty fine. Not a hunting type pull.
I polisherd the heck out of the barrel but beyond tightening down the stock and scope screws several times I haven't done much else. My greatest gain apart from the GRT trigger was in how to squeeze te trigger "Straight back" without any sideways pressure to cause deflection when the piston fires.
I still have to clean out the barrel every 30 to 50 shots or the groups open up. I know this flies in the face of wht a lot of other guys say.
Jim
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Same thing here .... having had a barrel break springer these past 25+ years never had an issue doing awesome shots with it. Gun broke down fall of last year and sat idle waiting to get fixed by Mac1, then rebuilt the Diana 75 that had been down for years ....
Christmas time a PCP came into use and again between the RWS and PCP was shooting recoil-less for near 4 months !!
Got my FWB 124 back from the rebuild after 1st of the year and started shooting it again ... only fair accuracy as I fought trigger pull and all that recoil !! .... dang had gotten spoiled big time.
Shooting the RWS and PCP the HOLD is typically dead loose and UN-tensed up & relaxed.
Once shooting the FWB again my shoulder hurt and accuracy using an Artillery hold that had become the normal of late WAS NOT WORKING !!
So like others here are saying ... YUP, firm into shoulder, tight against fore grip with hold and it shoots GREAT !!
Funny I had near forgot how to shoot the springer after just 4 months away doing so ... Age is my excuse and sticking to it ???
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Tuned?
I installed the GRT trigger and set it pretty fine. Not a hunting type pull.
I polisherd the heck out of the barrel but beyond tightening down the stock and scope screws several times I haven't done much else. My greatest gain apart from the GRT trigger was in how to squeeze te trigger "Straight back" without any sideways pressure to cause deflection when the piston fires.
I still have to clean out the barrel every 30 to 50 shots or the groups open up. I know this flies in the face of wht a lot of other guys say.
Jim
What do you mean by "polishing" the barrel. Sorry, new to some of these terms here. haha. Whenever I clean mine it usually takes a while before it starts shooting good again.
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Trevor, your experience is the more common one, ie a shiny clean barrel doesn't shoot as well as a "seasoned" one.
"Polishing" is usually done with JB Bore Paste or equivalent polishing compound and... for many guns, like yours, it takes 20, 40, or maybe more shots after the polishing before accuracy returns or improves. It's just the microscopic leading of the barrel.
Keep in mind that AGs don't foul like PBs so, cleaning and polishing is not nearly as critical, and some would argue, necessary at all. Many Olympic 10 meter shooters never touch their barrels and they shoot 1000's of rounds just in practice.
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Well what I have found is that when I polish with JB paste I still go at it with Maas or Flitz. Prefer Flitz because that is what I have.
I then clean out the gunk and polish with Hoppes #9 and dry it out with a bore mop.
Next step is to treat the bore with a stuff called Lansinoh which is a Lanolin lube. Lanolin is used on 22 rimfire target ammo a lot. lanolin is a lube extracted from Sheeps wool.
Its available from most drugstores and is used by nursing mothers for sore nipples. I apply a small amount of the Lanolin into the bore and then push it through with a fresh mop trying to get a good distribution through the whole bore.. Don't saturate the mop with the LAnolin but try to have very little left in the bore when you are done. If you have too much in there it will just shoot out and the rifle will take longer to settle down.
It only takes about 10 shots to get it to settle down and start to shoot tight groups. My barrel is relatively new so after about 50 shots it starts to open up and the groups spread a bit to maybe 3/4" at 25 yds. I merely push the Lansinoh clean out mop through the bore a couple of times and the accuracy returns. Incidentally the pellets I use are CPHP's and I believe they have some sort of lube on them. I don't wash my pellets.
I must stress that there is only the barest trace of LAnolin spread in the bore .
When you do your initial clean with the JB paste. Put a short length of 1/4" or 5/16"dowel into the front opening of the shroud and stand the rifle on its muzzle to hold it in place.
If your rifle doesn't have a shroud and just the open muzzle, then just stand the rifle on its muzzle on a piece of board or cardboard. This is to stop the cleaning mop or jag coming right through the muzzle. The mop or JAg bangs against the cardboard.
Short stroke the mop loaded with the JB paste through the barrel at least 100 times from the breach end. By short stroke I mean short 6 inch strokes as you advance through the barrel. Standing the barrel on its muzzle prevents the mop and JB paste coming out of the muzzle so the polishing ends at the muzzle but doesn't come out any further. This prevents wear on the crown.
Do the same with Flitz polish then follow up with the Hoppes clean and the Lanolin treatment.
I presume that some pellets leave a trace of lead in the bore and that causes fouling and destroys accuracy.
A lead-fouled barrel is an inaccurate barrel despite what others will tell you.
High scoring Target shooters have already got their barrels so conditioned that they don't need to clean as often as we do but then they have high priced air rifles with highly lapped polished bores and we don't.
I hope you can make sense of these instructions.
Jim
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Well what I have found is that when I polish with JB paste I still go at it with Maas or Flitz. Prefer Flitz because that is what I have.
I then clean out the gunk and polish with Hoppes #9 and dry it out with a bore mop.
Next step is to treat the bore with a stuff called Lansinoh which is a Lanolin lube. Lanolin is used on 22 rimfire target ammo a lot. lanolin is a lube extracted from Sheeps wool.
Its available from most drugstores and is used by nursing mothers for sore nipples. I apply a small amount of the Lanolin into the bore and then push it through with a fresh mop trying to get a good distribution through the whole bore.. Don't saturate the mop with the LAnolin but try to have very little left in the bore when you are done. If you have too much in there it will just shoot out and the rifle will take longer to settle down.
It only takes about 10 shots to get it to settle down and start to shoot tight groups. My barrel is relatively new so after about 50 shots it starts to open up and the groups spread a bit to maybe 3/4" at 25 yds. I merely push the Lansinoh clean out mop through the bore a couple of times and the accuracy returns. Incidentally the pellets I use are CPHP's and I believe they have some sort of lube on them. I don't wash my pellets.
I must stress that there is only the barest trace of LAnolin spread in the bore .
When you do your initial clean with the JB paste. Put a short length of 1/4" or 5/16"dowel into the front opening of the shroud and stand the rifle on its muzzle to hold it in place.
If your rifle doesn't have a shroud and just the open muzzle, then just stand the rifle on its muzzle on a piece of board or cardboard. This is to stop the cleaning mop or jag coming right through the muzzle. The mop or JAg bangs against the cardboard.
Short stroke the mop loaded with the JB paste through the barrel at least 100 times from the breach end. By short stroke I mean short 6 inch strokes as you advance through the barrel. Standing the barrel on its muzzle prevents the mop and JB paste coming out of the muzzle so the polishing ends at the muzzle but doesn't come out any further. This prevents wear on the crown.
Do the same with Flitz polish then follow up with the Hoppes clean and the Lanolin treatment.
I presume that some pellets leave a trace of lead in the bore and that causes fouling and destroys accuracy.
A lead-fouled barrel is an inaccurate barrel despite what others will tell you.
High scoring Target shooters have already got their barrels so conditioned that they don't need to clean as often as we do but then they have high priced air rifles with highly lapped polished bores and we don't.
I hope you can make sense of these instructions.
Jim
Thanks! Think I may of figured out the changing POI. One of the stock screws was only in about half way and the other was almost out! DUH! haha :D I turned em in all the way and then backed em off a hair so the gun would cock.