GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Crosman Airguns => Topic started by: Jeff in Smithville on February 10, 2012, 01:18:52 AM
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The .177 Nitro Venom Dusk that had almost convinced me it just needed TLC and more break-in is back to asking me for a trip back to Crosman. My other rifles of comparison are a well worn Gamo Cat in 17 caliber and an NP Trail AW in 22. Shooting each from the same position off of the same front rest ("Winchester" bean bag) at the same distance at the same board or sheet of 1" Birchwood-Casey stick-ons the Nitro Venom just continues to stand out as erratic. All have GRT III triggers. Although the other two can still manage an occasional flier or two, they both continue to make groups of touching and overlapping holes all withing the confines of the 1" circle and they tend to be inside the half inch circle. The Venom will on occasion put even the first or a random shot right down the little black diamond in the center. But is more likely to produce inexcusable fliers. Let me see if I can move this towards a question. The Venom's "fliers" are mostly displaced vertically, both up and down. And I can't get them near the center diamond, except occasionally as a total surprise that I can't follow up.
Anybody have an experienced guess as to what is causing this piece to shoot so erratically?
Scope is nailed down well. Stock is tight. Pellets are CPHP.
I've been meaning to broach the subject of how necessary it seems to be with springers (break barrels ) to have more than one, just for sanity check. If I had only one and it was shooting like the Venom, I'd go jump off a cliff or just give it up.
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Since you've mentioned you have only used CPHP's, I recommend trying different types of pellets. It sounds like your Nitro Venom likes domed pellets based on your statement of them going inside the diamond then "flying" away. It's probably a quality control issue from the CPHP's. Try some JSB or H&N. Good luck!
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If you cant get it to group with better pellys, my vote is your poston seal is toast. Mine looked like to came out of the bottom of a deep fryer when i took apart my xl. My experience with .177 cphp's are that they are much more uniform and consistant then the .22 cal versions. Some other things to check, you are suffering from "vertical stringing" which is indicitave of one or more of the following issues. An inconsistant barrel lockup will cause high/low because the barrel may be pointed a fraction of a degree up or down every shot. This can be caused by a poorly cut alivejam or weak spring behind the jam,... Or itcould be your breech seal has given up the ghost giving you both bad lockup and inconsistant velocitys. The scope issue looks like you have alresdy addressed. The last thing is that piston seal and unfortunately you wont know if you dont get your gun over a chronograph. If you are seekng more then 10fps or so variation from your shots, i would say one or both of your seals are done for. I hope this helps you out man. If there is any play in your barrel "up and down" give it the tissue test. If air is escaping your breech seal, carefully pry it out, put some dentalfloss down in behind the seal and put the seal in backwards. If its still twacked out, you might have to uild a spring compresor and put in a new piston seal. I did the cylinder cross hatch on my xl, shes a tack driver now!
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:( Great reply from Brewerja above.
I had the venom wood ,.22 out of the box it had weak power and did the same thing I was very disappointing, I sent it back to pyramid air.
I had a benjamin Trail .22 great power but did the same thing shot all over the place, and after chasing down all the little demons it was better but was never staying consistent for long, I returned that also to pyramid air.
You know out of the box a cheap beeman rsr, was so accurate i though I was seeing things.
I always clean the barrels and tune the rifles but it has to show me something up front 1st out of the box. There are plenty of rifles out there that do just that.
I would remove your grt111 trigger, reinstall the original, and return it or sell it and move on.
Just a example..
the hastan mod 95 Turkish walnut wood is 149.00 you get actual 800 fps in .22 it looks jaw dropping insanely good, and the quality of the steel from raw material is like German rifles, no need for a replacement trigger either. the rifle is one of many of the hottest selling Hastan rifles.. Rick Ustler on air gun web will be doing a review on it soon!
best wishes and good luck
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My .177 nitro venom experience was just like Mike 4888blues's. I keep saying Crosman quality on many guns is going in the toilet to which everyone replies "they have such great customer service". Unfortunately the customer service department does not build the gun, all they can do is replace it with the same gun. I had one usable Crosman gun out of 5 purchases (not counting old purchases back in the day). That is a ridiculously low number. What if new car makers made 1 usable car out of every 5?
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It is a shame but it is true. It is obvious there is no improvement on there designs, there's no reason to have horrible triggers
no reason to not of improved them, and all the other issues they keep having.
The Hatsan co has the Quadro trigger, as well as and many unique and improved designs.
A long time coming to all manufactures. who either copy or never improve or even care to change.
Rick Ustler has tried and tried to have Crossman do reviews on there rifles but they wont have it.
Look at it this way..
If The Crossman Co was my company you could bet your last dollar that it would go thru a complete over haul ,on everything that was made, and models with problems would be solved or taken off the shelves period.
what we need folks is a general Patton to come in a redefine the company. It seem like the owners are sitting back living off there income doing nothing. to old to change to old to care.
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Just my two cents since the bases seem well covered. I just put my Storm back together recently, and had it dialed in at 25 yrds to doing a 1/4" ctc and punching out large single ragged holes. After about 500 pellets, it suddenly opened up and began hitting high to the left and throwing fliers. Everything was tight, nothing sounded different, and all the normal stuff was, well, normal. I was using Crosman Premier Hollowpoints which had been working very well and had nearly emptied a 500 count tin, and so tried some JSB exacts, which had been working nearly as well. The JSB's were even worse.
Did a little looking online, and had seen a couple notes how Crosman pellets had fouled others barrels in less than 1,000 shots, so I ran 4 dry patches without any cleaner through my barrel, which showed there was indeed a lot of buildup present. My tight groups instantly returned.
Might be worth checking since your'e using the Crosman pellets. This video link shows how dramatic the difference between a fouled and a clean barrel can be. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHltqsdySYU# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHltqsdySYU#)
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Just my two cents since the bases seem well covered. I just put my Storm back together recently, and had it dialed in at 25 yrds to doing a 1/4" ctc and punching out large single ragged holes. After about 500 pellets, it suddenly opened up and began hitting high to the left and throwing fliers. Everything was tight, nothing sounded different, and all the normal stuff was, well, normal. I was using Crosman Premier Hollowpoints which had been working very well and had nearly emptied a 500 count tin, and so tried some JSB exacts, which had been working nearly as well. The JSB's were even worse.
Did a little looking online, and had seen a couple notes how Crosman pellets had fouled others barrels in less than 1,000 shots, so I ran 4 dry patches without any cleaner through my barrel, which showed there was indeed a lot of buildup present. My tight groups instantly returned.
Might be worth checking since your'e using the Crosman pellets. This video link shows how dramatic the difference between a fouled and a clean barrel can be. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHltqsdySYU# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHltqsdySYU#)
Hi Paul That was Excellent, That info should be put in the library.
I recently saw a you tube video on a member washing his pellets, he seem to think it was graphite powder.the ideal after washing is to spray the pellets with a wd 40 lightly.
which I will not do after seeing your video, but the washing may be the answer.
there were lead fragment and dirty water left over from washing the pellets.
I thought the grey on my fingers was from the lead transfer of the pellets during the course of shooting, hmmm maybe it is graphite and lead , I bought a small strainer , because i thought it was a good ideal. have not tried it yet but
Maybe you could test for the same and see what the results you get and post the results
I would use your video in a separate post as well & re title it,and maybe gene will use it in the library
Thanks for your great input, again a great job :D
best regards Mike
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Aint my video, just one I found when looking for possible reasons for my sudden loss of accuracy. It IS a very good demonstration though, that's for sure.
I'm probably going to try a few more pellets and see if I can find some that give the same accuracy as the CPHP's in my Storm so I can avoid all the graphite Crosman leaves on theirs. The JSB's are ok, but they just arent as consistent or tight as the CPHP's. I've gone through Crow Mags, Red Fire, Crosman Pointed, JSB exacts, Beeman Rounded, Crosman Destroyers and only the CPHP's have been truly effective. They're just too "dirty" is all. Far as I'm concerned, there shouldn't be anything but lead going through a barrel.
Clean that barrel with some dry patches and see what happens.
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It would be interesting to know how other rifles are effected with the cphp like my RWS Dianna 34 and RWS 350 and my Stoeger and Crossman optimist
the test would be to see how long it takes before the rifle barrel starts to shoot off center.
I am wondering if crossmans barrels design gets to easily affected because of how its made.
I like the cphp because they are inexpensive and shoot well so maybe It will work out when i wash them and dry them thoroughly ( I hope Jeff see's his post reply's )
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i was wondering if you tried cleaning the barrel. i keep hearing "i never clean my barrel" i use a nylon brush dipped in gunzilla followed by however many patches it takes to come out clean and i clean my barrels about every 50-100 shots sometimes less . but remember a clean gun is an accurate gun. some say it wears the barrel out if you clean too much, but if thats the case why doesnt mild steel loose thickness when you use a brush vigerously ? i think if a brush wears your barrel out from too much cleaning what kinda cheep metal did they use? heck soft mild steel will take hard brushing i used to clean up steel sheets at a trailer factory and used a large hand grinder with a hard steel brush never seen any thickness lost . just my 2 cents worth but do try a good cleaning before giving up on it
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Well, I'm going to use up my tin of JSB's and see if it holds groups. If it does, I'll run some patches through and go through a tin of CPHPs and see if it loses accuracy again. If so, that should be pretty clear indication that they are fouling the barrel.
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I would say get atleast 3 different types of pellets and try em. My XL was all over the place with predators, JSBs, Beeman FTS, and all the crosman pellets. I ordered some H&N Baracudas and they all go through the same hole at 20 yards, with a few fliers that I know is me because of the horrible trigger. The gun is more accurate than I am with the baracudas, the right pellet will make a huge difference, from 3" groups to .5" groups.
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Just as a data point, cleaning did nothing to solve my nitro venom's issues. Neither did numerous different pellets, remounting scope, retightening everything, differnt hold techniques, etc. the only thing I didn't due to fix it was tear it apart and replace the seals.
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Thanks guys. I don't think it is a pellet issue. Been sharing the same CPHP batch with the Cat. The barrel closing seems very precise--better than the NP Trail in 22, which outshoots it by miles.
I hit the barrel with dry swabs on occasion and have found nothing to be alarmed by.
Latest investigation was yet another change of scope: BSA Essential 3-9 X 40 came off and the "stock issue" Center Point 3-9 X 32 (OK, joke scope, but what the piece comes with) went on and everything that comes loose got tightened. In fact I did an all around scope mount tightening on the other two rifles. Of course that good deed went punished and I had to chase all of them a little. Ah, the wisdom of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." The Cat and the Trail got back to nice shooting, but the Nitro Venom remained vertically all over the map. Darn thing gave me maybe one ringer through the center diamond, and then it is back to Loony Tunes. Of course, then I am wondering if I have offended the Great Marksman in the Sky and I am doomed to make shotgun patterns one pellet at a time for eternity. So I go get the Big Cat: A couple quick dead on shots, a pause and I notice a horse fly on my back stop. One shot and the the huge fly drops. Life is good and spiritual high fives to the Big Guy.
The Venom is going back to Bloomfield.
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The only thing I think is the problem is the barrel lock up, some brass washers put in place of the nylon one crosman puts in will hopefully fix it, and its very cheap to do.
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Just as a data point, cleaning did nothing to solve my nitro venom's issues. Neither did numerous different pellets, remounting scope, re tightening everything, different hold techniques, etc. the only thing I didn't due to fix it was tear it apart and replace the seals.
Yes and I liked the looks and weight of the nitro venom wood, but hey my spider scences kicked in and I knew i was going to send her back and move on to better waters!
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Thanks guys. I don't think it is a pellet issue. Been sharing the same CPHP batch with the Cat. The barrel closing seems very precise--better than the NP Trail in 22, which outshoots it by miles.
I hit the barrel with dry swabs on occasion and have found nothing to be alarmed by.
Latest investigation was yet another change of scope: BSA Essential 3-9 X 40 came off and the "stock issue" Center Point 3-9 X 32 (OK, joke scope, but what the piece comes with) went on and everything that comes loose got tightened. In fact I did an all around scope mount tightening on the other two rifles. Of course that good deed went punished and I had to chase all of them a little. Ah, the wisdom of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." The Cat and the Trail got back to nice shooting, but the Nitro Venom remained vertically all over the map. Darn thing gave me maybe one ringer through the center diamond, and then it is back to Loony Tunes. Of course, then I am wondering if I have offended the Great Marksman in the Sky and I am doomed to make shotgun patterns one pellet at a time for eternity. So I go get the Big Cat: A couple quick dead on shots, a pause and I notice a horse fly on my back stop. One shot and the the huge fly drops. Life is good and spiritual high fives to the Big Guy.
The Venom is going back to Bloomfield.
Jeff do your self a great favor. send it back move on and buy the Hastan 95 in Turkish walnut wood .22 if your into .22
the only thing with that is maybe you may have to replace the piston seal ,I ordered one from air rifle head quarters a j m seal that will require some adjustment on the piston buton to make it fit properly, its a known fact that most factory piston seals are to small and it causes piston slam.
the mod 95 is accurate gorgeous inexpensive and built very well high quality with the latest Quardro trigger
Gene from GTA highly recommends that as well, as so many others & the Hastan website pictures not so good so unless you read in the Turkish gate everyone loving there mod95 hatsan its the onkly way you know its gorgious &* accurate 20 yds less then 1/2'' groups that's 60 ft 800fps in .22 using 14.3 grn pellets
best regards Mike
p s what i did was i bought a crosman optimist and bought parts from the Benjamin trail and made the optimist into a nitro just to have one nitro, cause i like spring rifles better.
tune a springer properly and man it will be a great rifle.
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send it back
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Thanks, again. Will be exploring brass washers in the future I bet. But for now it is still under warranty. And a certain woman thinks I have too many "projects" going. Crazy thing is that the earlier NP Trail that couldn't....had problems....came back a sweetheart of a shooter, I suspect, just from a little hands-on at Crosman, which they should be doing in the first place. Won't even get to remove the GRT III or box it up for at least a week.
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Thanks guys. I don't think it is a pellet issue. Been sharing the same CPHP batch with the Cat. The barrel closing seems very precise--better than the NP Trail in 22, which outshoots it by miles.
I hit the barrel with dry swabs on occasion and have found nothing to be alarmed by.
Latest investigation was yet another change of scope: BSA Essential 3-9 X 40 came off and the "stock issue" Center Point 3-9 X 32 (OK, joke scope, but what the piece comes with) went on and everything that comes loose got tightened. In fact I did an all around scope mount tightening on the other two rifles. Of course that good deed went punished and I had to chase all of them a little. Ah, the wisdom of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." The Cat and the Trail got back to nice shooting, but the Nitro Venom remained vertically all over the map. Darn thing gave me maybe one ringer through the center diamond, and then it is back to Loony Tunes. Of course, then I am wondering if I have offended the Great Marksman in the Sky and I am doomed to make shotgun patterns one pellet at a time for eternity. So I go get the Big Cat: A couple quick dead on shots, a pause and I notice a horse fly on my back stop. One shot and the the huge fly drops. Life is good and spiritual high fives to the Big Guy.
The Venom is going back to Bloomfield.
Just because the CPHPs shoot good outta your Cat doesn't mean they should shoot good outta your Nitro Venom. 2 entirely different barrels made by 2 entirely different companies. I just went through the same thing bro and once I found the perfect pellet that my rifle liked I was set.
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I hope you find out what is up with yours .I took my out Saturday and it was doing the same thing and then all of the sudden my scope rail fell off .So back to Crosman I guess
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do you mean the weaver rail that post to be welded or brazed on to the tube just feel off i have a venom nib never shot it the rail on mine is welded on crokid not centered right
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Yes just fell off not happy!!!
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well they must do poor job welding them cause one i have is not centered right
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Hi Jeff
well remember re install your venom's trigger if they see you removed it it will void the warranty
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well newbie here i just figured out how them linkages on the venom get bent from over cocking shot mine this morning and about the 10 shot i kinda pulled down a little to far after gun was cocked did not think i put that much presure but after than shot i looked at it was bent and the next time i cocked it it went way over to the side and started shaveing the stock and on the weaver mount it was not welded on crookid but the frount and back of it where to goes the the recever there was a gap under it i bet in time it would broke off also looks like to me if a person going to use a venom things i would do weld the cocking linkage or order one for a trail and even maby take gun apart and have base tiged up lol
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Will be removing that trigger before sending it back. Wouldn't want Crosman to see what a real trigger looks like. ::) At least my Weaver rail is still on, last time I looked. Reason I have shot mostly CPHP pellets is that with the non-camfered breech, they were one of the few that fit without getting a kiss on the skirt each time the barrel closed. Don't think it is pellet related, but I'll try others when I get it back. My gut response has been that it was scope related, which would mean that several scopes have come down with same disease at the same time. (Big hmmmm, maybe give that Weaver rail shake, but I don't think so.)
And so it goes.
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I always use a empty pen to seat the pellets properly . cos if the skirt get damaged even a tad ir will throw the pellets flight off every time
I learned that on pyramid air from Paul Capella :D what ever his name is lol
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I use baracudas, and jsb heavies in my .177 venom, and its a tack driver. Powerful and accurate. Its my favorite .177. With the right pellet, it is more accurate then my mrod and Cometa Fusion. You really need to try different pellets before you crucify the gun. I still have the Crosman trigger in mine.
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i agree barracuda domed pellets work best in my nitro venom. If you are using the stock scope however you may never get the thing to group!!! A gun like that deserves a better scope and personally i would like it if they sell the gun minus a scope but include a decent trigger.
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Be assured I have tried other scopes that work fine on other springer/gas piston rifles. The original equipment was merely the absolute worst. Will be auditioning other pellets (and I don't mean Daisy!) after it comes back and I put a little camfer on the breach. At this point there is something just wrong with this piece.
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If all else fails, return it or send it to be tuned.Personally before i used mine i sent it in to be striped down and lubed, the gunsmith told me it was bone dry in the compression chamber.If i had put it through 500 pellets or so being there was no lube,the piston seal would have been history.If the folks at crossman forgot to put lube in a gun what else might they forget.
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New poster, and perhaps you've already resolved your issues. I too had big problems with a Nitro Venom Dusk .177. At first, it turned out to be the screws coming loose. But soon after, despite tightened screws, it was all over. At one point I actually SAW a pellet after I shot it. The darn gas piston must have had a leak. Returned it for a new one and this new one has been working perfectly. Sighted it in with the first 20 shots, and it has held its zero for the past few hundred shots despite the fact that it usually takes a 100 shots or so to settle in. Sounds to me like you might have a lemon and should return it. I went insane trying to figure things out....different pellets, different variations of artillery hold, swapped scopes, etc. Crosman is hit or miss in my opinion when you buy one of their guns. Another example, I bought a G1 Extreme a couple of years ago. Broke soon thereafter. Returned it and Crosman sent me a Phantom. That gun has been reliable as all get out. Like I said, hit or miss. Just my two cents.....
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Jeff in Smithville,
FYI - I have 2 Nitro Venoms in .22 and .177 and they both have had sterling performance since day 1. They are not in the least bothered by scope problems, pellet types or weights or anything else that has been discussed here. They both have GRT3 triggers and the .22 has a Remington summit stock on it and they both have Summit barrel breaks. I have NEVER had the least problem with their performance or accuracy and the .22 has over 50 squirrels to it's credit.
The first Nitro Venom I bought had a weak Nitro Piston in it and I IMMEDIATELY sent it back and received the one that I am bragging about above. No extra cost, no fuss, no muss!
I am only telling this because we just have to realize that sometimes break barrel ARs come from the factory full of problems and it is not worth our time, energy and frustration to keep beating our heads against the wall in trying to fix them when nothing seems to help. As soon as I find an AR that is not performing up to expectations, I call the manufacturer or distributor and put it in their laps; that is what warranties are for.
My heart goes out to you for what this rifle has put you through and I just pray that the one you get back is as good as mine was.
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Thanks Pappa, and I am hoping that I have the same luck as I had with the 22 caliber NP Trail All Weather: terrible until I sent it in. Since its return/replacement, it is usually my go-to rifle. The well aged Big Cat gives it a good run, sometimes out shooting it and sometimes not. I am accepting the certainly that I will eventually wade into the world of tuning and tweaking. Need to get a "few" projects out of the way before I take on yet another.
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Jeffrey,
Where is Smithville, TX? I was born and raised in the lower Rio Grand Valley and graduated from high school in Edinburg, TX, in 1955.
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Well, Smithville is in Bastrop County. East of Austin more or less on Hi Way 71. And near (drum roll) Bastrop. I am actually about equidistant from Smithville or Bastrop, but the tax base, School district, post office and powers that be say I am in Smithville. Your basic Central Texas as opposed to The Valley. Doing a sloooow move from Houston area after 38 years. It is great getting back to the sticks.
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Anyone here near San Antonio?
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what amazes me is we buy new guns and before we can shoot them they need to be overhauled . what a joke . mabe we shouldnt buy those who need work from the start. i wouldnt buy a new car or truck that needs new engine work before i drive it home just cheep junky quality.
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I don't really go along with that entirely. Will a full tune improve a brand new, out of the box gun? Of course it will, but that doesn't mean that it's a requirement. I have plenty of rifles that I bought that shot good right from the box, are still bone stock and still shoot good and I have no intention of either sending them for a tune or tearing them down myself and doing it. I'm not being "anti tune", far from it as I think a good tune is the best money you can spend on your rifle, but that's if you have the $ to spend on a tune and you want it done. Just my own personal ramblings :)
Jeff
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Replacement is on the way back. I guess we'll throw the dice again!
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what amazes me is we buy new guns and before we can shoot them they need to be overhauled . what a joke . mabe we shouldnt buy those who need work from the start. i wouldnt buy a new car or truck that needs new engine work before i drive it home just cheep junky quality.
I was thinking last night ...why Did I buy this AG. (My Titan LV is giving me grief))
Crosman used to mean you bought something you could own with pride.
Always ready and always there. Just grab it and go. My old pumpers never got cleaned.
They got Used and They oiled..but that's it. Having to rebuild before use. No .....won't go there again. My NP is just fine and my Titan is love / hate right now..
However: I bought an AG to go shooting ...not for working on.
No more new Crosman's for me. ( I cancelled my pre-order on the NP Pistol)
I'll stick to my Vintage stuff. Lol.....
I want to see a Trail NP or Venom that still shoots after Fifty or Eighty Years. :P
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Hi guys, A smooth shooting rifle "out of the box" is everyone's dream, however getting one that shoots like a tuned rifle is rare. I think that manufactures should be more stringent about the quality of their products. I have a nitro venom that had no lubrication, I have returned a titan gp that had some serious inconsistency [even after 100+ pellets I was getting as much as 80 fps spread between shots, needless to say it did not group], I received a phantom that shoots like a dream, i prefer it to the venom, so i guess u just have to wait for that keeper.