GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Crosman Airguns => Topic started by: DeathMetalMax on January 31, 2012, 08:37:36 PM
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I just wanted to get some opinions on my technique that I will explain hear. When shooting my Crosman Storm XT, I've tried the artillery hold and after a couple days of shooting offhand, I was hitting my targets, but i wasn't getting the consistency I wanted. Today I tried another method, in which I would pull the gun into my shoulder and hold it firmly. I noticed a huge improvement in the consistency in my shot groups. This kind of bothers me because I constantly hear that it's crucial to use the artillery hold with springers, which the Storm is, but for some reason with the artillery hold I wobble too much. I just don't want to end up developing bad technique. Any advice?
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Experimemt with different pellets. Check for other issues caising your accuracy problems.
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As far as I can tell for many guns the artillery hold is complete bunk. I've tried it on a couple springers now and it makes horrible results. I've had much better accuracy with the traditional hold.
One thing intrigues me about the artillery hold though, and that is giving it "some" freedom to recoil. I tested many different holds in a fairly scientific manner and I did find some benefit to leaving some "looseness" in how tight it fits on your shoulder. This little bit of air, or looseness, between your shoulder and the butt gave it a small pocket to recoil back into. Notice I did NOT say the gun is free to move around and do whatever it wants (this is what TOm Gaylord says to do with the artillery hold). I mean looseness so that it can slide backwards ONLY. Like a gun on a railroad track, it can go backwards only, not a bit up and down or , side to side, etc.
In my test, when the gun was free to do whatever it wants, ala TOm Gaylord's instructions, it was a total mess. No consistency at all. But when I limited movement in all directions except backwards (and even that was limited somewhat) there was a night-and-day improvement.
So I would suggest trying this modified "rail gun" hold and see what happens. Also try a regular rifle hold. you are not alone in finding the artillery hold creates horrible results. There were many people who chimed in on my old thread that said the same thing. But to be fair there are many who report good luck with the artillery hold, so it may depend on the individual gun.
The graph below is from that old test. It was from one gun with one pellet so take with a grain of salt but I was butally consistent in all the tests. If you did this enough times, you would really know what is best for your gun. Anyway I basically used three levels of "tightness" on the hold at the back (butt meets shoulder), middle (rtigger hand) and front (forearm hand). You can see that the looser the front and middle hold, the worse it was. The gun could do whatever it wanted, and it wanted to go all over the place! I did a similar quick test -though without the thorough consistency- on my Beeman and I got the same results. Although for the beeman the looseness in the back doesn't seem to be needed, a regular rifle hold seems to work just fine. But what I'm saying about the beeman is based more on impressions instead of rigorous testing like on the nitro venom. I may do the same rigorous test on the beeman to see if my impressions were correct.
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Accuracy and consistency comes hand in hand. Once you found the hold that puts your poa to your target you're in there. Several factors determines these though...breech and barrel sometimes have lateral movement from the mediocre plastic pivot washer, bad crown, seals etc....then it comes down to the shooter. Knowing how your AG shoot can make or break your shots. Things to consider; scope creep, pos trigger pull, bad seals (can give you erratic muzzle velocity), how long have you had this AG and comparison to your other AG's? A simple lube tune and deburring most times can bring your shooter to it's potential. Visit the GTA Library for tons of info...
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artillery hold for me and my gun is trash as far ans the shoulder/butt connection what i do is i put the butt on the front deltoid (front part of my shoulder muscle firmly but not stiff and that tens to hold it and give adequate room to recoil back into unlike hard bone in the shoulder (Clavicle) . But the artillery hold on the front side of the gun hold true for me a semi open loose grip griping slightly on the stock seems to hold true. It is truly your experimentation with your gun and your body that will yield the best results. Everyone gun/body hold is different.
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As far as I can tell for many guns the artillery hold is complete bunk. I've tried it on a couple springers now and it makes horrible results. I've had much better accuracy with the traditional hold.
One thing intrigues me about the artillery hold though, and that is giving it "some" freedom to recoil. I tested many different holds in a fairly scientific manner and I did find some benefit to leaving some "looseness" in how tight it fits on your shoulder. This little bit of air, or looseness, between your shoulder and the butt gave it a small pocket to recoil back into. Notice I did NOT say the gun is free to move around and do whatever it wants (this is what TOm Gaylord says to do with the artillery hold). I mean looseness so that it can slide backwards ONLY. Like a gun on a railroad track, it can go backwards only, not a bit up and down or , side to side, etc.
In my test, when the gun was free to do whatever it wants, ala TOm Gaylord's instructions, it was a total mess. No consistency at all. But when I limited movement in all directions except backwards (and even that was limited somewhat) there was a night-and-day improvement.
So I would suggest trying this modified "rail gun" hold and see what happens. Also try a regular rifle hold. you are not alone in finding the artillery hold creates horrible results. There were many people who chimed in on my old thread that said the same thing. But to be fair there are many who report good luck with the artillery hold, so it may depend on the individual gun.
The graph below is from that old test. It was from one gun with one pellet so take with a grain of salt but I was butally consistent in all the tests. If you did this enough times, you would really know what is best for your gun. Anyway I basically used three levels of "tightness" on the hold at the back (butt meets shoulder), middle (rtigger hand) and front (forearm hand). You can see that the looser the front and middle hold, the worse it was. The gun could do whatever it wanted, and it wanted to go all over the place! I did a similar quick test -though without the thorough consistency- on my Beeman and I got the same results. Although for the beeman the looseness in the back doesn't seem to be needed, a regular rifle hold seems to work just fine. But what I'm saying about the beeman is based more on impressions instead of rigorous testing like on the nitro venom. I may do the same rigorous test on the beeman to see if my impressions were correct.
I'm going to have to try some of your suggestions there. So far what worked best for me was pulling the gun back into my shoulder firmly but not too tight (leaving room for recoil) kind of similar to the rail gun hold you're talking about. Next I'm going to have to try holding the stock loosely to my shoulder while gripping firmly with my trigger and forearm hand like you said. That seems like it would work pretty good for my gun. Good advice. Thanks.
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artillery hold for me and my gun is trash as far ans the shoulder/butt connection what i do is i put the butt on the front deltoid (front part of my shoulder muscle firmly but not stiff and that tens to hold it and give adequate room to recoil back into unlike hard bone in the shoulder (Clavicle) . But the artillery hold on the front side of the gun hold true for me a semi open loose grip griping slightly on the stock seems to hold true. It is truly your experimentation with your gun and your body that will yield the best results. Everyone gun/body hold is different.
I tried the grip you just explained for about an hour today with mixed results. I just cant hold the front of my gun loosely without wobbling but that's just me. Like you said every body's hold works differently. But holding the butt of the stock firmly against my shoulder like you said definitely helps my consistency.
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If you notice on Tom Gaylords video he is using a Beeman Air rifle with a Reckord trigger.
trigger pull has allot to do with the artillery hold. Too hard a trigger pull and the artillery hold falls apart requiring a more traditional hold.
Consistency in trigger pull and lightness is what makes the artillery hold work, consistent hand placement, cheek and trigger memory is essential.
With that being said every springer and shooter is different, thus it takes time to fully learn the artillery hold.
The artillery hold works for me when bench shooting, with great results especially from my rws air rifles. Giving me Excellent groups and the ability to shoot mice and sparrows in the head for the most part at 24 yards.
Experiment until you find what you like, and if possible swap out the trigger for a better one.
Rob
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I have a Benjamin Trail NP. The pure artillery hold does nothing for my groups. I spent a whole day shooting different targets with different holds and I found that the artillery hold gave me the worst results. Now I lay the front of the stock on the back of my forward hand and pull the rifle medium firmly into my shoulder. Pretty much the same way I shoot my powder guns.
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If I remember correctly, one reason for the artillery hold was that people could not hold/pull the rifle to their shoulder with consistent force shot to shot. So the recoil and thus the PoI of the rifle varied with how hard the held the rifle to their shoulder. If you can hold the rifle to your shoulder with a consistent force, shot to shot, day to day, then you have overcome one of the reasons for using the artillery hold.
@Max
Is the pix of YOU holding your rifle as you are describing?
If so, then yes, the artillery hold with that stance is subject to wobble.
If you pull the rifle into your shoulder with your left arm, you are stabilizing the rifle and your left arm into your shoulder.
If you use the artillery hold, there is no tension on your left arm, hence your wobble.
Try pulling the elbow of your left arm into your side. That will give support to your left arm and should reduce your wobble.
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Experiment. And when you find one hold that goes good with your rifle...stick with that one. Most of my air rifles like to be snug at the shoulder...but not pulled in so you're shaking!!!! And like to be held with a light grip.
Bobster.....I like your graph and stats.
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Thanks for all the advice guys. After about a week of trying different holds, I found that pulling the stock back into my shoulder firmly with my right hand, resting my left elbow on my side, and gripping firmly produced the best results. I still have a while to go till I'm shooting like I want to, shooting 1in groups offhand at 35 yards.
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Another agreement here, the artillery hold does not work for me.
I've been shooting the bejeezus out of my Storm since I put it back together, and spent an afternoon trying different holds. Pulled back tightly to shoulder, left hand holding just tight enough to prevent movement, and a very careful pull on the trigger ( I try to lock my hand in position and concentrate on moving only the trigger finger rather than "squeeze") has been giving best results and good groups. Artillery hold produces poor accuracy and 0 consistency for me.
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My Storm XT is still "seasoning", with only around 100 pellets, but I agree with those who posted that it seems to NOT "like" the artillery hold. The best grip I've found so far is a medium grip at the rear, with slight pull into the sholder, and with the offhand lightly gripping the front of the fore end. To keep my grip consistent, I place the tip of my left ring finger onto the forward stock screw -- this is a small, subtle way of keeping the grip in same exact spot every time...
I haven't started to experiment to see what pellets it wants yet -- just shooting CPHP's, which seem to be OK, but I suspect they are not the best ones to feed this AG.
PS: Please understand that I am not a non-believer in the artillery hold -- I have a couple AG's that won't group any other way...