GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: bobster on January 18, 2012, 07:18:23 PM
-
My last 3 crosman purchases resulted in 0 usable guns (nitro venom, 1377, 1377). That is totally unacceptable to me. I know a lot of you guys buy these guns knowing the trigger will be bad, scope will be bad, and you'll have to replace the seals etc. but I don't want to do that. I want to buy a gun that works, not a base platform to rebuild everything. Their quality control is so bad I must abandon this company altogether.
Plus if you read that underlever thread http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,10550.100.html (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,10550.100.html) , Crosman clearly asked for input from us, ignored it, then rebranded a chinese copy of an air arms gun and doubled the price. They say on the ad for that copied gun that they are an innovator and always developing new technology. Amazing that they can say that on the very website of a copied gun and not feel ashamed.
I cannot live with this deceptive company anymore. Whatever I buy, it will NOT be made by Crosman. There has to be some kind of consequences for deceptive marketing and totally shoddy products. I'm going to vote with my feet despite having been a very loyal crosman customer in the past, and having owned my first Crosman 27 years ago.
I'm currently looking to replace my junk PC77 (1377) with either a browning break barrel pistol or a Gamo Co2 (550FPS) PT-85. I love Crosman's designs but I hate their poor build quality and deceptive practices.
-
pick up a disco, mrod, or a custom shop 2400kt and it will change ur mind..
you need to understand the break barrels are made over sea's with qc isnt what it should be.. but the pcp's and custom shop crosman pistols and carbines are made right here in the usa and have 3 times the quality control that the over sea's products have... so you cant really base ur view of crosman on its over sea's counter parts when you havent yet had one of its made in the usa guns...
btw their pcp's are top frickin notch...
-
I believe the M-rod has foreign componets in it but I do not know what componets. I do not know the source of these components so to me that does not make it a USA made gun. My Ruger, Kimber, and S&W were/are USA made.
-
I feel badly that you had a bad Nitro Venom, but... you've been posting how "shady" Crosman is for a couple of days, based on a day one blog post about the new underlever.
You were not alone in making assumptions about the gun, but as details come out, it appears that much of the early criticism was ill-founded. The whole story is still not known, but it's allegedly improved over B40, and the price is nowhere near what was originally claimed. It's time for everyone to just let the thing come out and see what we've got, rather than going to the moon over speculation.
The 1377 is a much-loved $50 gun. It is cheap, and fairly cheaply made. The love comes from what can be done with it, not what it is... it is what you get for 50 bucks retail.
I don't think there is anything deceptive about any of this. The cheap guns are cheap (but cool), the expensive guns are nicer, and the new guns are new. Just a little perspective?
-
I'm currently looking to replace my junk PC77 (1377)...
How much for the junk PC77??
-
I'm going to return it. It is only accurate for 5-10 shots immediately after oiling. After that it is all over the place. I assume it is bad seals? IMO a base gun for rebuilding is all you are buying in many cases with these guns.
-
Sorry to hear you are having so many problems i guess you got all of there lemons. i have been shooting and buying Crosman guns for at least 35 years and had my share of problems with crosman products but they have always made things right for me. I no how frustrating is in to get something and not work properly. As someone mentioned get a P Rod or a custom shop gun before you swear off Crosman. I have about 20 classic crosman guns the newest one from the early 80s and they all still work, of course some of them needed a fix like a O ring or a seal at some time. As far as the 1377s go i own 15 of them and never had a problem. I really hope things turn out well for you and hope you chose a nice gun that you are happy with.And if it's real good please post i just might follow you and get one.
Mike
-
...and the price is nowhere near what was originally claimed.
The price of $530 was posted by Crosman themselves, not claimed by non-crosman employees. It looks to me that they backed off that due to well-deserved public outcry.
...Just a little perspective?
My perspective comes from personal experience. Let's put it this way, if a person bought 3 new cars of a particular brand and none of them were useable (or usable only after rebuilding the engine and replacing parts), that person would probably have an extremely poor opinion of that brand. From what I have seen, I think Crosman has a real quality control problem and I choose to not buy their products anymore, despite my past loyalty.
Also, I totally agree with Mike that my 1970s/80s Crosman guns were bulletproof and those are the guns that built my loyalty. My latest experiences are what destroyed it.
Just a guess but I would think that a person's willingness to live with poor quality control is greatly affected by how skilled they are at working on guns. For example, if it's no big deal to change seals, or if you were going to change them anyway, then it's not a big deal if the gun came with shoddy seals. For me though I want it to work right out of the box. I'm no Beeman fanboy in the slightest but I bought a Beeman rifle a year ago and it's been fantastic without doing any work to it at all. Again, we all base our opinions on personal experience but I have also seen tons of Benji NP problem posts for example so it must be more than just me that are seeing these quality control probems.
-
My experience with Crosman has been the exact opposite of yours, my Titan is a shooter with charlies trigger and nothing else. And its new not a refurb, and I bought it at Walmart. Why dont you call Crosman up and talk to them about the rifle and pistols. I bet they hook you up good.
-
I was wondering how much time and money it would be to test a product before packing compared to shipping a bad product back and forth to a customer being that it seems to be a lot of this. There still is handling cost from reshipping. On top of that reputation can hurt a company a lot.
-
bobster I hear you man, and believe you have presented your case openly and honestly. Respect!
It's your money after all, and if any brand doesn't have your trust you are right to walk. This is free market, and for you (and others) the Crosman marketing model just doesn't cut it. At the same time, some folks are willing to buy and forget or to return/mod - understood that is their thing, and Crosman's marketing strategy caters to those who either buy and file or fix or mod. I don't remember the source, but somewhere I saw it written that most of the airgun product retailed through box stores get fired a few times, then put away. Us avid shooters (frequenters of good forums like this one) are the minority consumers of their products. Maybe this is why they can afford such great customer support. I can't imagine there is that much profit in a Quest, or a Titan, or a Trail, to allow 2 replacements to be shipped (not counting the costs of the hardware itself).
I think I would still buy another Crosman rifle, but for me it won't be a break barrel as the loose lockup on their B18/19 models has me totally miffed.
-
get a disco with pump and you wont be buying break barrels anymore... heck if i had the money id buy you the disco with pump and if you like it then you pay me and if you dont you send it back to me cuz i could sure make a few awesome things with the extra parts...
-
i see you complaining that crosman didnt listen to the people in the Other thread but you do realize Crosman Looks for input in more places than just the GTA right?
Sure they didnt listen to some peoples requests but they listened to others
They upgraded the bbl in the gun, they upgraded the trigger, redesigned the latch system as well as a better stock than the original just sayin
-
Why dont you call Crosman up and talk to them about the rifle and pistols. I bet they hook you up good.
This. Call them. Tell them what's happening. I've been in manufacturing and service and can tell you that people not complaining to the company is the best way to continue to get a bad product from them. If Crosman doesn't know you're having a problem, Crosman won't fix it. End of story.
I was wondering how much time and money it would be to test a product before packing compared to shipping a bad product back and forth to a customer being that it seems to be a lot of this. There still is handling cost from reshipping. On top of that reputation can hurt a company a lot.
There's no point in pre-sell testing on most products that Crosman, and other inexpensive weapon producers', air rifles. It's too expensive. Look at it like this:
What's a proper test? It can only be tested by firing, and then how many time is a proper test? 50 rounds? A full break-in cycle? I spent an hour the other day firing 50 rounds at assorted target distances, making adjustments, and then properly cleaning. An hour. Just picking a pay out of the air here, but if they pay this guy $15/hr, that will add up in a hurry.
A $15/hr employee costs an employer on average $23/hr. An hour's worth of pellets? $3. Lets make it an even $25 in additional cost to the mfg to test a gun for an hour. How much mark up do they want? Usually 100%, but we'll run with 50%. That's an additional $37.50 they're going to charge for a retailer to carry it. Then lets say this is a Crosman Titan GP that Wal-Mart sells for $149.99. Wal-Mart buys those guns for $84 a pop (PM me for details if interested). That's over a 75% mark up. The additional cost from the mfg, coupled with that mark up, makes that $150 gun...which, in my opinion, is a pretty fair bargain...a $215 gun.
Because of one hour of testing.
Edited due to language
-
If you don't like Crosman anymore, Than you don't like Crosman anymore!
We are the minority of there sales, we want something better and use there platforms to get it. The information is provided by great places like this place.
For the most part, these guns are purchased for the youth, why have an airgun when you can have a powder burner, Right.
The majority of people do not know about bad seals, poor workmanship or the ability to tune these.
Buy a Crosman and put it in the hands of a youth, they would love it and rave about the pop cans they killed.
With 430 million people in the US and 40 million here let alone around the world where crosman is sold, one cry of a bad gun is silenced by the cheers of the many.
Crosman is atleast asking for input from the few, despite a massive following of the un-educated shooter (tuning wise).
Rob
-
After having my share of the basket of lemons, I can say, as of now I have 2 Crosman guns that are dead on and no problems. The service that they deliever is out standing. Slow on shipping but still very good on making things right. They are still in business no matter how many guns are returned. Money is being made by them so there has to be a huge markup. I have not seen any USA government assistance like many USA operations. The return guns do not make it back where they were made. Again most people are not into these guns as many of us are. Some just master the issues and shoot the thing and some do not know any difference between a good gun or a lemon. There are lemons in ever thing made. Just read the forum on any topic and some one has an issue with any brand. Maybe more on the Crosman guns because of the selling price vs the higher end guns. More sold, more people, more problems compared to the lesser sold. Most of your air guns are made by an overseas company anyway. Quality was at one time lead by the USA till we out sourced for cheaper labor. Now it is quantity for pennys vs no quality. What can you expect for $9.00 a day labor vs $15.00-$30.00 an hour labor. The last Trail I tore down looked much better than the ones I have had. When you get a good one or do your mods these are still great shooters.
-
dukemeister and the kid, I think you have it right on about the "target" audience. It's pretty funny when I search on youtube for an airgun review. It always comes up with some kid doing a "review" of an airgun which consists of him reading the outside of the box verbatim. Then they say, "so that's my review of ..." And I'm like, "wait, when is the review going to start?" But to many who buy these guns, that is the only level they get to. I guess the target audience is not discerning and their expectations are very low.
I suppose it's accurate to say the guns are built down to that level of the target audience, which to me, not worthy. I do think it's fantastic though that people have the knowledge and desire to make them something much better via custom work etc. That is a very cool thing. I don't have that knowledge or time for that though so I guess I have to try to find a better product out of the box. Also from the comments, I gather that the PCP guns etc. are built at a much higher level so that is encouraging.
I guess the problem really comes about when we have higher expectations (from say a mid-range cost gun like some of the springers for example) and poor quality control. That was certainly the case with my nitro venom. It seems to me these guns (which not super cheap like say the 760 price range) shouldn't have broken seals etc. the first week you use them. But there is a ton of evidence of these kinds of problems.
-
Crosman marketing is just horrific
-
Crosman marketing is just horrific
Is that a bendy stick in your avatar? lol
/threadjack
-
I don't have a problem with your decision, based on your experience. I can think of one major auto manufacturer that I will never buy again, based on my experience, after repeated attempts to resolve and escalate an issue. And it was a long time ago. And I will never ever buy one of their products again, even if all the people involved are retired or dead, now.
I just think a lot of people teed off on Crosman's new introductions without all the facts. Your decisions are up to you.
I have found Crosman to be anything but shady or deceptive, and I am going to resist that characterization. But, perfect? Far from it. And I don't think the marketing magic of their name on an unacceptable product is going to change its acceptability. Still, I am happy to see them trying... not a whole lot else new coming out of AG land at this Show, apparently.
Crosman has been a trendsetter in the larger general airgun market lately. They may not invent nitro pistons, for example, but they can sure introduce the technology to a big slice of the market. Disco and Marauders changed our world forever and they are putting out some quality stuff if you pick and choose. The Nitro line has been a hit and we'll see what they can do with the underlever (not a category that interests me, at all). If the new pellets are really just the Skencos then I don't think they will go far with forum-dwellers.
I am more excited about the NP Pistol, myself. ;D
-
Crosman marketing is just horrific
Is that a bendy stick in your avatar? lol
/threadjack
Sure is, ...homemade silent Killer :)
-
Car experience is a good analogy.
At one point in time (may or may not be true today) Ford made good trucks. That was what they were good at (simplified to one model type). If you wanted a good small compact you would look at Honda.
Crosman makes good pcp's. That is was what they are good at. If you wanted a good springer you will look at?
Companies are not good at too many things. I learned about this in business management. When you really look at a company for what the essence of what they do is, It is very limited. Just my two cents.
-
It is just my opinion on testing would be checking parts down the assembly line. Testing 50 to a 100 shot in a air rifle would be like testing every new car for 500 to 1000 miles. Having production quality checks through assembly is why some car companies have less complaints than others.
Maybe have not read enough but seems what I have read seems most problems are with NP guns.
-
The 1377 is a much-loved $50 gun. It is cheap, and fairly cheaply made. The love comes from what can be done with it, not what it is... it is what you get for 50 bucks retail.
Heck, I hit starlings at 75 feet a couple of times, just shooting it as a pistol out my window, lol. :D
I'm happy with the gun for what it is. ;D
-
I was wondering how much time and money it would be to test a product before packing compared to shipping a bad product back and forth to a customer being that it seems to be a lot of this. There still is handling cost from reshipping. On top of that reputation can hurt a company a lot.
The total cost of poor quality can run 15-30% of operating expenses. Its one way a lot of companies try to save money on QC and save themselves right out of business.
-
It is just my opinion on testing would be checking parts down the assembly line. Testing 50 to a 100 shot in a air rifle would be like testing every new car for 500 to 1000 miles. Having production quality checks through assembly is why some car companies have less complaints than others...
That's correct. They say you can't inspect quality into a product, but you have to be %$# sure the system is set up tp eliminate defects before you give up on all final inspection beofre shipping.
-
I will address this since I, in part, kind of kicked this snowball down hill when resurrecting that old under lever thread on the other gate.
A fellow on another forum got in touch with Crosman and they have assured him that this MAV77 is not the standard B40 but a revamped model with improved trigger, barrel, cocking ratchet, etc. AND the price will be about $350, which I think is a combo. Granted, the scope is probably going to be lower tier but still useable for the price. Heck, if they have "fixed" some of the problems that the B40 came with, it would be fair considering what your time is worth to you in correcting them. Some figure the actual street price to be $300 or south of that. Conclusion, they did listen to us but decided it might make more business sense (especially in this economy) to incorporate some of the suggestions into a proven product.
Crosman has also brought back the 1322, which will be welcome to many who like the excellent 1377. Hard to find a better pistol for the money these days. So, let's not rag them to death over a couple of products.
-
besides its not like you have been buying their top line stuff either. I have alway been taken care of by them .....not sure how you could have alienated their customer service. All they ever wanted to know from me is "what will make you satisfied?"....they have never told me NO to any of my requests when they asked that
-
besides its not like you have been buying their top line stuff either. I have alway been taken care of by them .....not sure how you could have alienated their customer service. All they ever wanted to know from me is "what will make you satisfied?"....they have never told me NO to any of my requests when they asked that
Tom, who are you referring to that was "alienated by their customer service?" I never mentioned anything of the sort if you are talking about me.
-
Well a lot of us have mentioned the importance of having contacted Crosman about problems experienced. Forgive me if I am mistaken, but you have not mentioned your experiences with Crosman customer service or support. This implies that you either never bothered to contact them about your issues, which is, among many other things, about as lazy as one can be, or that they provided a less than satisfactory solution.
-
I assumed that since you had a few you were unhappy with you had had some sort of let down by their customer service activity. Did you even try them for your issues...even on their low end line stuff they took care of me
-
...which is, among many other things, about as lazy as one can be, or that they provided a less than satisfactory solution.
Lazy? Come on, Give me a break. Why in the world would I go through all the trouble to call the company, package up a gun, wait for the ups shipping back and forth etc., when I can just take the gun back to the store where I bought it and get my money back?
Some poeple love companies that sell poor products but always replace them with new products when customers complain. Often these companies expect the vast majority of the customers to NOT complain (see discussion regarding target audience above). I do not like such companies.
Let me give an example of what I am talking about. We have a tire store near here that sells poor quality tires but gives outstanding service. I personally have had 2 of their tires blow out on me on the highway. Last year I saw a guy pulling into a restaurant and his rear tire was flat. I told him, "did you notice you had a flat tire?" he was an elderly gentleman and said he just got the tires about half an hour ago at this particular tire store and they were fine when he left.
He will go back and they will replace it with a smile. And the tires they replace it with will be the same poor-quality tire. Maybe that guy will be happy about that, I don't know. I assume that if he had that hassle enough times though he would not be happy and realize they are selling poor quality products, but again I don't know about that particular guy.
I can only speak for myself. I'm not going around that treadmill. It should work as advertised. If not I take it back to the store. And after having the two bad tire experiences I will never shop at that tire store again. How many failures does it take to realize they are selling poor quality products? Should I just keep going back and back to their great customer service?
I am not into paying for junk tires and for them to gladly replace it with more junk tires. It used to be that this tire company wasn't bad in terms of quality. But now when you talk to the average Joe they are wise to the quality control issues. It took a while for the public to catch on but now most people know.
It's clear that the model of selling products with poor quality control but providing great service to quickly replace it with the same product works in terms of making profit, at least until people catch on anyway. But I as a customer don't have to willingly engage in that cycle, I can opt out. Which is what I am doing.
-
Lazy? Come on, Give me a break. Why in the world would I go through all the trouble....
It would have been less trouble, likely, than the effort you put into writing that, and probably more rewarding, because I didn't read anything past what I quoted above. You've summed up everything about this matter by that point.
-
bobster, whenever ur ready for the darkside. please understand crosman's quality goes way way up when it comes to their pcp's.. if i lived near you id loan you my disco or 2400kt for a weekend for you to see first hand that crosman does make good quality products.
-
Mckenzie, You just proved the point about the target audience, saying, "I didn't read anything past that".
There are a lot of posters on this thread who made very good observations and points, and are contributing to everyone learning. They can discuss with respect and I respect their ideas and eagerly look for truths in those ideas I may have missed, even if I may not agree with them. Then there are guys like you. I'm glad this forum has more of the former and less of the latter.
-
bobster, whenever ur ready for the darkside. please understand crosman's quality goes way way up when it comes to their pcp's.. if i lived near you id loan you my disco or 2400kt for a weekend for you to see first hand that crosman does make good quality products.
Mustangmike, you may well be right based on what I've heard. I certainly don't hear about tons of returns on those products but I don't frequent the darkside forums, and of course I don't have personal experience with them so I can't say from that. I would probably guess that if I tried one of the discos etc. I would feel similar to you that way but I don't know.
-
He might not feel like pumping the disco up... or connecting it to a tank. That is one big hurdle $ wise those darn accessories.
Sounds like he returned the 1377s b/c of bad seals? Was the barrel accurate, the pump stoke problem free,and was the trigger fine? (every company has problems with seals, just the ones with tight QC seem to catch it).
Heck i just bought a bunch of cheap 'defective', made in china (of course, get used to it folks), led flashlights. Popped out the led-portion, put in a o-ring, reinserted the led assembly, and now they all work just fine. Learning what you can do with seals is part of owning an air gun. It never hurts to physically inspect something made in china. Sometimes the quality is there... sometimes.
Has anyone bought anything badly manufactured from germany? I have yet to see something worse then cosmetic damage.
-
bobster: You are 3 for 3 on bad quality and I cannot blame you for your decision. And... even a $50 pistol should pump, shoot straight and last for a few 1000 rounds, fully agree. As noted by others, we are the fringe of input to Crosman because we know the mechanics and shortcomings of their guns, that's why they ask us, we are a "focus" group, not their target market.
Still, an American company should do better and my experience has been just the oposite of yours, all my 1377s shoot lights out, I just modify e'm cause I can. Same with my 2240 pistol, I know going in that it has a 20 lb trigger but, I know how I want the trigger to work and I have the ability to do/fix it, many folks don't. As for reviews, yes, you are so right, some 14 yr old ex air-soft dufus with comments like... "this gun rocks man, I totally eliminated 10 beer cans with it"...HUH? Thanks Beavis, tell B-head we said hello! I'll get a real review somewhere else.
Are you considering any of the really good co2 guns like the QB78 rifles or... even the (sorry) Crosman custom shop carbines?
-
Bobster, why are you having to oil up the pc77? May I ask what are you oiling up as well as that may be the problem? (As mentioned in reply #5 by Bobster.)
-
Bobster, why are you having to oil up the pc77? May I ask what are you oiling up as well as that may be the problem? (As mentioned in reply #5 by Bobster.)
Previous 1377 made a nasty scraping sound very early on (maybe 20-30 shots after new or so) when pumping and became extremely hard to cock with a hard "stop" in the pumping stroke for lack of a better term. Never really was accurate IMO. That one was really bad. Second one was incredibly accurate at first and then became inaccurate. Seal looked pretty dry to me so added 2-3 drops on seal and letting it work into chamber and worked pump back and forth. Immediately was very accurate again. Soon shooting all over the place and stayed that way. Then oiled it and very accurate for 5-10 shots. Then all over the place again, and the same cycle continued that way. Accurate after freshly oiled only.
-
Hmm to be honest i would have returned that 1st one you described as well (sounds like it had 2x separate mechanical issues). Probably on the 2nd one i woulda been... cursing up a storm @ crosman... then taken it apart and tried to fix it myself. Then i'd remember to look online :P. Anyway different strokes for different folks. I wouldn't call the 1377 easy to take apart and re-assemble the first time. Some of the roll pins really didn't want to come out on mine, which led to frustration, but eventually i worked it out.
Heck i though crosman's mfg was top notch til i got my sheridan... now they built WELL. Amazing, mind blowingly well. To bad that kinda quality is gone in today's market.
-
bobster, whenever ur ready for the darkside. please understand crosman's quality goes way way up when it comes to their pcp's.. if i lived near you id loan you my disco or 2400kt for a weekend for you to see first hand that crosman does make good quality products.
Mustangmike, you may well be right based on what I've heard. I certainly don't hear about tons of returns on those products but I don't frequent the darkside forums, and of course I don't have personal experience with them so I can't say from that. I would probably guess that if I tried one of the discos etc. I would feel similar to you that way but I don't know.
i think you would be happy with a disco and pump.. pumping a disco isnt all that bad.. i dont mind it to be honest, im waiting till my pump goes to buy a tank or untill my birthday when i will be buying a tank of a member
-
bobster, whenever ur ready for the darkside. please understand crosman's quality goes way way up when it comes to their pcp's.. if i lived near you id loan you my disco or 2400kt for a weekend for you to see first hand that crosman does make good quality products.
Mustangmike, you may well be right based on what I've heard. I certainly don't hear about tons of returns on those products but I don't frequent the darkside forums, and of course I don't have personal experience with them so I can't say from that. I would probably guess that if I tried one of the discos etc. I would feel similar to you that way but I don't know.
i think you would be happy with a disco and pump.. pumping a disco isnt all that bad.. i dont mind it to be honest, im waiting till my pump goes to buy a tank or untill my birthday when i will be buying a tank of a member
darn mike you gonna talk me into buying a disco yet,,lol
-
every one should own a disco or some other pcp.. its awhole nother level of airguns..
-
Do it now Get the disco It is the Cheapest way into PCP plus ya can do lots to it if ya wanna get crazy go stock and be into it around 300 bucks or do as I did go into it DEEP Get a Guppy tank , customize the Disco to 31 FPE add a decent scope and base, Full shroud and spend $1100 LOL