GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Benjamin Airguns => Topic started by: Toolmaker on December 13, 2011, 09:59:15 AM
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My 397 is two years old. Right after I got it I did the "isolated check valve" mod. Since then all I've done is shoot it. It has had a good number of shots through it. I would occasionally give it a few drops of non-detergent 30wt oil. It started giving problems a couple of weeks ago. The valve was leaking out the intake side. When I pulled the valve I was shocked! Lots and lots of corrosion! I had a tough time just getting the valve screwed apart. It looks really bad on the inside. Thankfully I have an extra valve that I'm going to use. Not real sure I can save the original, it's that bad.
All of the Crosman and Benjamin / Sheridan pumpers built in the last few years have aluminum valves. This includes but not limited to the 1377, 760, 2100, 397, 392, Blue Streak, etc. If they are not lubed this WILL happen! Compressing air creates condensation (water) which oxidizes and corrodes the aluminum. The older guns have brass valves which are not as prone to this problem. I'm not sure when Crosman switched from brass to aluminum for their valves.
LUBE YOUR PUMPERS OFTEN TO PREVENT THIS!!!
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Thanks for the good advice Matt.
Richard
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man, that is a real shame. so even though you were adding oil every now and then it still corroded? i've been hearing more and more about this lately but have yet to see and actual picture of it.
i bought a 760 a little over 8 years ago. i kindof forgot about it after a while and it sat around for the last 5-6 years. last year i decided to finally take it apart. it had a brass valve and it was in pristine condition with just a bit of old gross looking pelgun oil in it. i can understand using a cheaper material to make a gun thats supposed to be cheap in the first place, but they should have left the benji's alone. after all, arent you paying all that extra money to get a GREAT gun? how much could the brass valve actually add to the price? i wouldnt mind paying it...
the washington monument is topped by a pure aluminium pyramid. they picked that metal because of its resistance to corrosion. i was watching "life after people" on the history channel once and it was talking about how that little pyramid would last for thousands and thousands of years.
so whats the deal with these aluminium valves??
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Made In China?
I just acquired a new 392. Looked all over the unit and the box. Doesn't say anything anywhere as to it's origin .
Or, is it made here with "Globally Sourced Parts"? Dunno, But I can say , It is one ugly AG compared to my Silver Streak.
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Washington Monument aluminum was etched and hard anodized in and out. Hard anodize is about .003" to .005" thick and tough stuff. Standard anodize is only .0002" or slightly more.
Crosman valves probably have no anodize at all?
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I was just thinking about that! It could be hard Anodized .
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so...how often do you think we should lube these guns nowadays...I lube my old 761xl around every 250 shots....just a few drops of nd 30w oil.....
but I got a new 1377 for Christmas...whats everyone else doing with these for lubrication frequency?
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I think that lube is proportional to how much and how often (more importantly) you shoot the gun(s).
A drop or two on the pump wiper and one drop on any breech bolt o-ring every few hundred rounds is what I do on my Benji 397 and the Cros 1377.
Too much oil with too little use of the gun is not good. Most oils tend to congeal with age (get sticky/ugly).
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thats real bad..likewise on the 150 to 200 shots i'll add a few drops to the bolt/orings.sense this post i'm going to add a drop or two right now..
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I just put a couple drops of some synthetic skate lube every couple hundred shots.
Man those seals and valve look bad lol
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Lube where and with what?
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My '08 Benji 392 has an aluminum valve. I had to replace it a couple of years ago due to corrosion and the intake check sticking open. I lightly oil it before every use now.
Funny thing is, my aluminum valve 1377's and 760's don't have near the trouble that Benji has. Have some from '07 still with their original aluminum valves. I oil them about every second or third time I use them.
I have one old 1377 from 1978 that has a felt wiper. None of the newer guns do. I just put a drop of oil (I used 30wt ND too) on the visible portion of the pump cup and on the pivots.
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Benjihunter: "lube where and with what?"
C'mon now, you are kidding right? With a Mac1 steroid, surely you have a bottle of Tim's secret sauce lube?
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Lube where and with what?
I lube the back of the pump cup, the top of the piston and the pivot points with non-detergent 30wt motor oil. Pellgun oil, automatic transmission fluid, and Mac-1 secret sauce are also good pumper lubes.
I'll also say too much lubing would be better than not enough. Gunky oil can be cleaned out of a valve, corrosion can not! I was lubing my 397 about every 3rd shooting session. That obviously wasn't enough. I will lube it (a few drops) every time now.
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Benjihunter: "lube where and with what?"
C'mon now, you are kidding right? With a Mac1 steroid, surely you have a bottle of Tim's secret sauce lube?
Sure, I lube the gun with that but Tim told me to lube the pivot points only, so that's what I have been doing.
And it's stamped near the pump cup, by the air hole. "Do not oil"
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Thanks for the good advice Matt.
Richard
+1 ;D
if i lube the piston occasionally (from the outside) will that not make it to the valve.? or do i need to disassemble it too? ;D guess i already know this one but want to hear what you have to say. ;D
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The lube will migrate into the valve if you use secret sauce on the piviots and pump arm
if you lube each time u shoot you should be fine!
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lube every time?....really? Isn't that excessive?.....
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The lube will migrate into the valve if you use secret sauce on the piviots and pump arm
if you lube each time u shoot you should be fine!
That's is what I read on the Mac1 site and that's what I will continue to do. ;)
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lube every time?....really? Isn't that excessive?.....
it may seem excessive but tim knows his stuff and this was direct from him
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judging by the looks of that one valve, we should all make sure to oil those threads real good too
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Lube it or lose it! 30 wt non detergent is OK if you want to break in your lawnmower but water displacing, anti wear (AW) class lubrcants are the only solution to making sure the Alluminum in your Crosman Pump system does not go OFF like the one you show.
Every oil starved valve will do the same. If an adequate water displacing lube is used it will carry the corrosive contaminants out with the fired charge while eliminating wear to pivots and abrasion of seals.
This is what is inside of your pumper if you do not religiously put lubricant through the valve system every shot.
On the Benjamin/Sheridan piston the guide end of the piston is a porous part. The design is such that the guide end should always stay saturated so it lays a film of lubricant down on the tube every stroke.
A portion of this film enters the valve each stroke and mixes with the moist air charge. If there is no moisture in the system it will not corrode. The only way to reliably counter the tendency for the aluminum to become a sacrificial anode is to constantly introduce lubricant to the inlet side.
When the valves were Brass, oil starved guns still corroded the spring like you see but the Brass was immune. 6061 T6 isn't going to be happy in a multi metal layout. It will always become the collector of junk till you add a zinc piece.
Get Secret Sauce and use it. We still see no problems in Steroids that have been using alloy valves for years now.
A 60 year old 140 with alloy valve will still be good as long as someone had the tendency toward lubrication.
Those 60 year old valves often will not unscrew just like the 2 year old one you show.
They are not worth saving since a new valve is so cheap. What isn't cheap is all the custom work that has to get pitched everytime someone runs one of the Steroids dry.
I have decided I cannot afford to fix this issue as I give people the lube with every gun I fix or sell. The customers that don't use it will pay to fry their gun just like always.
I lube every gun like it is the last time it will ever see Secret Sauce. Unfortunately a very high percentage of people NEVER read instructiuons and a Fried pump cup and trashed valve body is their first hint of what that bottle of sauce was all about.
It is for internal consumption. The guns. Use it or lose it.
These guns will last for decades if properly maintained. They will not last qanymore if they are not lubed generously.
Sauce is $3 for small dripper and $10 for 10oz refill size.
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and a small bottle will last a LONG time
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Old bump, I know -but Wow, that Benji's valve is horrifying! :o I've been using a couple dabs of pelgun oil the piston tip with my aluminum valved 1377.
Does anyone know whether the pelgun oil would be suitable for displacing water vapor etc in the valve? I really hope crosman listens to their customer base and goes back to brass, especially since they still use it on their co2 guns from what I've heard.
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lube every time?....really? Isn't that excessive?.....
i get the feeling you might be thinking too literally "everytime you shoot it". it means every time you have the gun out and are shooting it. so, every "session" really....
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My 1969 Benjamin Sheridan .20 still shoots well after only oiling 3 times in its lifetime.
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My 1969 Benjamin Sheridan .20 still shoots well after only oiling 3 times in its lifetime.
Yeah, but isn't that a brass valve?
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i lube my benji steroid after each use , a drop , you wont hurt it , keeps them pumping and shooting nice
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OK... here is my method....with lots of research and emphasis to the experts like Tim at MAC1...
When my pumpers dont "pssst" when opening the pump arm/piston, They get a drop of Mac1 sauce on the pump cup.
Only time will tell if my aluminum valves will last like my '80 766 & 71' and '75 Blue Streaks.
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A drop is just an expression.
Give it a bit more than a drop each time you use it.
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Don't forget the bolt probe o-ring every once in awhile too.
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Take a look at Lubrisol. This is a lube invented by the Germans in world II not petroleum based and works well on every toy I own. Research it on the web; you may like it. Doesn' gel up either
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DON't Put oil on Cup,
It will get there. The guide end of the Piston where the link picks up the piston is porous. It will soak a bunch of oil up and lay a film down on the tube every stroke so the cup/valve, probe etc gets what they need. The PIVOTS of the lever will wear out if you lube only the cup.
The design is intended to take care of itself as long as you lube the pivots. In the newer guns I tell people a few drops onm the front pivcot and lever rivet and three to four times that on the link to guide pivot so you saturate the porous piston guide.
The porous part is your oils reservior and will take care of business just like the felts in a Benjamin.
I'm not a fan of Pellgumoil. I've been wire brushing that stuff off parts for decades and it is not what I would call modern.
Secret Sauce is a Modern Anti-Wear(AW) properties hydraulic lubricant that has US patent associated with the development.
It eliminates wear and it eliminates the possiblity your gun will go down due to valve body corrosion.
It really is amazing stuff but it only works where it flows to, and the lube will not flow to the pivots if you only lube the Cup. It will flow to the cup if you lube the pivots.
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My 1969 Benjamin Sheridan .20 still shoots well after only oiling 3 times in its lifetime.
It's funny you say this because I have had the same gun since the mid 70's and have never lubed it! Still functions like it was new.
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My 1969 Benjamin Sheridan .20 still shoots well after only oiling 3 times in its lifetime.
It's funny you say this because I have had the same gun since the mid 70's and have never lubed it! Still functions like it was new.
Yeah, I know! My uncle lubed it once, and i've lubed it twice in 4 years.
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My 1969 Benjamin Sheridan .20 still shoots well after only oiling 3 times in its lifetime.
It's funny you say this because I have had the same gun since the mid 70's and have never lubed it! Still functions like it was new.
And the gun has been shot how many times?
Unbelievable comes to mind, heavy on the UN part.
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Linkage wear ls always going to limit how much wear the gun will see as the stresses plummet with the head pressures. Guns that never see lube saw right thru the pivots and the gun is pumping a fraction of the original air and shoots pretty anemic.
It always cracks me up when the guys who hardly ever shoot say stuff like the 2 lubes in a guns lifetime stuff. I deal with heavy users and heavy users burn their Dans up regularly if the run them oil starved.
If you shoot twenty rounds a day and pump it higher than most do you need a high performance lube. The gun will not wear out if you do this religously.
If you shoot twenty rounds a year it doesn't matter what type of maintenance the gun sees. in 50 years it shoots 1000 rounds and it is a gem to find.
If you use it Lube it or lose it. It will still function unlubed but it will be tired and gutless unless you maintain it. Like any machine if you feed it the good stuff and it treats you right. Anyone who pushes the envelope will tell you don't do it without considering the maintenance products being utilized.
What works for the high performance sector also works for the standard stuff. It is all about using the best AW(ANTIWEAR) products to get the most from our pumpers.
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Not sure if it's been said already, but that looks suspiciously like "dissimilar metal" corrosion. That' where you have a nonferrous metal (such as aluminum) contacting a ferrous metal (such as steel). That's why the Navy uses brass instead of aluminum. About the only thing you can do is to disassemble and clean. I don't believe lubes help much.
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Good call Deane, that's why Boeing and others use a primer for what they call "wet-install" of dissimilar metals (steel bushings into alum is typical).
Any good primer like Rustoleum will work or MIL-PRF-23377 if you buy in bulk! LOL
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Not sure if it's been said already, but that looks suspiciously like "dissimilar metal" corrosion....I don't believe lubes help much.
What lubes do is keep the debris & minerals coming from the Air charge being condensed into a concentrate inside the valve chamber from accumulating in the chamber. This is 3 generations talking here so please understand I know what I speak.
When a gun is run oil starved all the contaminants from the Air Accumulate inside and infront of the valve. The accumulation wants to eat the alluminum valve as that is the softest metal in the Scheme. When the valves were Brass all that got eaten by the corrosives was the steel valve spring buit now oil starved guns will shut down.
When a lube is used on these guns that keeps he debris and minerals going out with the air charge we do not see the valve get huit down with corrosive build-up.
I gaurrantee oil starved valves will fail. Lube doesn't change the aluminum to brass but we have had no problem with corrosive debris build-up or valves corroded to death when Secret Sauce has been used.
The steel doesn't touch the aluminum so a disimilar corrosion by touching metal isn't an occurrence except at the rear steel action fastener that screws directly into FINE aluminum threads. This is the weak link in the system and the butt stock(yes stock fastener is screwed into the valve fixing fastener). This is where the Fastener needs to be heavily blue loctited so that the thing won't come unscrewed but also so the aircharge doesn't leak past the threads and/or fastener upon firing gun.
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I sent Crosman a customer feedback message on their site telling them to go back to brass valves on their pump guns. I just can't understand for the life of me why they've switched over to aluminum on their classic 13xx series and especially the very expensive Benjamin line of pumpers. Now, I can see if they want to cut corners on the flimsy $30 760, fine, but don't do this to the classics! In my opinion, they could never bring the 13xx line to the custom shop without brass valves, they just wouldn't be up to proper quality levels. This ridiculous move is way worse than them dropping the 1322, as they are making a myriad of guns that will self destruct over a year or so for average users. I'm sorry, it just really ticks me off. <end rant>
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I had a '63 Sheridan for 9 years(bought new) and have no trouble with my "73. The first one I religious oiled once, and have oiled the '73 twice(only because the seal was a bit dry). Yes, the brass is the key to that kind of abuse. Those with the newer aluminum might want to try coating the parts in question with an antioxidant used by electricians on aluminum wire connections. I've seen some nasty, waterlogged service panels with just about everything inside corroded, except the ends of the aluminum wire. Worth a shot in conjunction with the proper lubes.
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;) I am a huge fan of Balistol (bet you never heard of it). invented by the Germans during world war II. They had some good scientists over their. No oil based. A little hard to find, but that is what the internet is for. I use it on every thing I own, from leather to steel.
Darrell
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seeing this makes me glad all my pumpers have brass valves and are lubricated well stored with 2 pumps
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didnt the germans lose the war?
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It's too bad that with all the aftermarket parts for the 1377 no one makes brass valves to replace the aluminium ones with.
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You beat me to that idea.
Easy $15 or so that most people would gladly pay for. But aluminum alloy (think typical aluminum cookware) is just a cop-out. What this means is that the new models are essentially dry-weather only guns until they've had brass parts put in.
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Hmmmm, dry weather is questionable.......the condensation is a natural by product of the heat generated, I believe....
Notice on all of your pumps (pcp)the good ones have a dry pack, to protect your reservior from corrosion.
Ever fill a 30 gal shop compressor to only 120 psi, then drain it? Water pours out.
Lube is essential for these guns, both pressure point AND corrosion resistance. Probaly just a bean-counter initiative....aluminum has more moisture resistance than steel.....
Likewise the bbl being brass, on the Benjis.....2 reasons....moisture resistance and flexibility.
Nothing is made to last anymore, proprietary and short duty-cycle construction...."guarantees" that you will come back.
God bless,
Farmer
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15 dollars? i dont think so. the demand would be so high (i think so anyways) that it'd probably be more like 50-60 or so if some guy were making them in his garage or whatever... i saw an old brass 1377 valve on ebay a while back go for over 40 bucks...
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I guess I'm not that imaginative but I have a hard time picturing how lubing just the pivots will get enough oil to the cup on a 1377. Also, the manual specifically states to put oil on the pump cup.
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the blowby lubes everything else
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I don't see it listed on Mac1's site, where is secret sauce obtainable from?
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I don't see it listed on Mac1's site, where is secret sauce obtainable from?
Secret Sauce is in stock. Give the shop a ring @ 310-327-3582
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Check this out. A possible fix for aluminum valves...
http://www.network54.com/Forum/275684/thread/1335201072/Crosman+aluminum+valve+protection+accidently+discovered (http://www.network54.com/Forum/275684/thread/1335201072/Crosman+aluminum+valve+protection+accidently+discovered)!
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I guess I'm not that imaginative but I have a hard time picturing how lubing just the pivots will get enough oil to the cup on a 1377. Also, the manual specifically states to put oil on the pump cup.
The piston is going up and down the tube every stroke and gravity it also feeding lube down into the valve. The Pivots need lube to fight friction. The lube gets transfered down to the valve and goes thru the gun and out with the air charge every shot. Try to lube the pivots and NOT get lube on the piston cup in a few strokes. It is impossible. One end of the piston is the pivot and the other end the cup only a few inches away. Secret Sauce would migrate that far uphill in a few streokes.
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so... lube it, then stroke it. got it! ;D
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so... lube it, then stroke it. got it! ;D
Classic!
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From DWK54
"Take a look at Lubrisol. This is a lube invented by the Germans in world II"
I Googled this and found nothing but about Warren Buffet. I did Find it as Ballistol at Midway or you can buy it from the source at Wiseman Trading & Supply. ;)
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From DWK54
"Take a look at Lubrisol. This is a lube invented by the Germans in world II"
I Googled this and found nothing but about Warren Buffet. I did Find it as Ballistol at Midway or you can buy it from the source at Wiseman Trading & Supply. ;)
The last time Lubrisol came up someone commented "didn't the Germans lose that war"? I thought that was pretty funny.
TECHNOLOGY in the 30's and 40's is just that. ANTIQUE and not worth mentioning.
AW (Antiwear) properties lubricants and Multi viscosity bubrications are a modern development that cannot be ignored when seeking the best solution.
GUN LUBES have so little in common with Airgun Needs it is ludicrous to consider them. They are about lubing metal on metal vs metal on seals. I kinow it is what Gun guys have sitting there. Use it on the guns. I've seen the stuff used on all sorts of applications and I'm certain I've washed it off me 100's of times.
Hydraulic Lubrication technology patents are dominated by a few companies who have the resources to develop the lubricants I've adopted as Secret Sauce. This is technology that makes earth moving machines go 5 times the normal service intervals when the Sauce replaces the normal juice in those Hydraulic Systems.
I found the stuff because I knew who was doing the best development and started testing all of their lubes recommended for severe service conditions. They were trying to solve a wear issue with advanced lubrication technology. IT WORKS.
We ran a Steroid 20 rounds a day for 10 years. 14 pumps every shot. After 70,000+ rounds there was no measurable wear in the linkage system of a factory Sheridan pump lever.
The stuff also saves the factory raw aluminum valves from certain death. I'm sure there are other ways to do things but the corrosion issue has been front and center for a few years now and I was the first to point out this was something you could not ignor. If there is any way to consistently coat the factory valve with something that would eliminate the possibility of corrosion that would be awesome, but till then the Sauce is working.
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id rather lube it then "pump it" ill leave the stoking for you guys!!!!!
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Just ordered some Secret Sauce from Tim tonight,Great Guy!
$6 shipped for some Protection on my investments. Cheap Insurance!
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its good stuff
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I discovered the same problem of corrosion around the valve and gauge port of my Benjamin Marauder. It has been leaking for a couple weeks and was driving me crazy. At first I thought it was the pressure gauge but soon discover it was the corrosion that formed under the o rings which caused the loss of the seal. After completely tearing it down, carefully removing the o rings and cleaning off the corrosion fallowed by relubing, the problem is finally resolved. If I had access to a lathe, I would machine out the valve and gauge port from brass to avoid future headaches. The bright side is that it shot better after the internal cleaning and holds air!
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Do you pump, shoebox, get painball or use dive-air?
I believe the answer is key to the real issue.
Heavy use, pumps as primary airsource and moist environment are a bad combination for the future of any pump pnuematic or PCP.
A combination of the dry and moist is not all that much of a problem.
Hand pumps have no way of flushing the cpontaminnats corrosives and debris and it just acculmulates a nasty sludge inside the pump that CAN MIGRATE TO THE GUNS.
In pump pnuematics the sludge can get flushed thru but hand pumps don't benefit from that flow thru and they are just a nose that never gets blown only to sieze up when it is overwhelmed by crud.
The oring seats in a pump get eroded till there is not enough material left to seal on. I feel for anyone trying to make a living rebuilding these sludge accumulators.
At least you can pitch the valve assy and start from scratch relatively cheaply. It is such a simple swap out there is not much point in complaining but if someone made brass valves again they would be a hit.
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How in the heck are they not making the m-rod valves out of brass when they are making the lowly 2240 valves out of brass (at least that's what my 2300 has.) This whole aluminum valve crud is really ^*%$#@ me off, especially if I'd bought a $500 m-rod. The brass in that valve might cost a couple bucks. What the heck are Crosnman and their engineers ripping in bongs?
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Took my 392 apart and found out how much a mess pellgun oil makes. So I ordered some secret sauce from Tim. What an awesome experience talking to him ! I plan to send my 392 off this fall to be steroided!
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How did you get the valve apart?
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How did you get the valve apart?
You're aware this topic is 5 years old? To answer your question, the valve halves just unscrew from each other. You'll want to use soft material between the valve and pliers/vise jaws, such as aluminium, copper tubing, wood or even leather so as not mark the valve. HTH
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5 years old but new to me, and interesting.
Could this corrosion be due to electrolysis ?
Iron and Aluminum makes kind of a galvanic cell. Since the aluminum is of lower electrochemical order than iron, it get's solved over time (hypothetically).
BTW - If the pump-tube/piston gets lubed from time to time, the valve internals should be lubed sufficiently automatically by the way.
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Dissimilar metal corrosion, I see it all the time in electrical. Two metals of vastly different make up will corrode when in direct contact for extended periods of time.
The inside of the valve threads corroding is because of the compressed air and moisture inside the valve. It CAN happen with brass as well but would take much longer. The best way I have found to prevent the aluminum valve from seizing shut is to remove them and apply 100% dielectric silicon grease to the threads, never had a stuck valve since and it seems to seal things up even more.
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Great read !!