GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Machine Shop Talk & AG Parts Machining => Share Your Simple Home Projects (TRICKS-N-TIPS) => Topic started by: GTA-Airgunner on December 08, 2011, 09:59:04 AM
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Hello all,
Someone suggested that I post my recent Take AIM here in the Shop Talk. I guess I'll start posting all my Take AIM videos here as they all deal with the day to day "how to" of airguns.
Before I post this, I just want to say, and confess that I certainly don't know everything about airguns and I'm sure that most of the folks here know a lot more than I ever will about tuning and repairing airguns.
So here goes. I hope you all enjoy the video and find it helpful. I use a custom designed spring compressor that continues to work very well for me. I'll get with my machinist / welder friend and get the plans together so folks can build them if they like.
Cheers
Rick Eutsler
AirgunWeb.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeQQ6S6WgHc#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeQQ6S6WgHc#ws)
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Excellant write up rick. I have been following your vids and reviews for about a year. This is a great teardown and explanation for the new guys, this vid should be stickied. Also, was going to ask you, i take my dremel and debur the cocking slot so it doesnt chew up the seal. I also ran a brake cylinder hone on a drill through my Trail XL to clean off the paint on the inside and cross hatch the cylinder before i molyd it. What a world of difference! I average 905fps with 14.3gr cphps with and extreme spread of 3 fps. I am convinced the extreme spread is due to ammo imprefections though. Again, awesome write up rick. Keep up the good work man. I love your unbiased writeups and reviews of new guns!
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Thanks.. I wanted to polish the chamber on my Trail as well.. I'll give your method a try.. Ultimately I'd like to work up a set of wooden jigs that can be covered with something like a scotch bright pad and run in and out of the chamber while attached to a drill. Also something that I can turn the pistons on as well. I don't want to have to purchase a lathe just for that.. but it may give me a reason to build that extra workshop off the house ;)
Cheers & Thanks!
Rick
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I spoke for quite a while on the phone with Rick last week. Quite a guy. His video reviews have been very helpfull to many of us. Worth watching in my opinion. Rick cuts them no slack when something is not right....:) And I also like Rick's new beard..:) It becomes him..
I would like to stop here and share a few words of wisdom.
Although Rick is great at his reviews after watching his video on rebuilding an NP gun from Crosman.
I do have some issues with this video. I would like to be as objective as possible here.
For example. I certainly would not try and do video reviews on air guns...:) I know my limits..:)
OK Ricks video on the tear down and reassembly of the NP is just that. As you can see there is not real tuning going on here. I am sure Rick knows that and meant for the video to be just a general how to do video only.
I commend Rick for showing all of us how an NP can be torn down and reassembled. There also are many techniques on how to skin a wabbit as well...:)
When Rick mentions polishing, the only think I can think of polishing are trigger parts. Polishing combustion chamber or piston would be a disaster. I am sure he knows this. Especially if you reinstalled a new seal. Combustion chambers need to be cross hatche to do it properly. You only apply a light coat of moly one inch from back of seal back on the piston and one inch on rear of piston. There are parts that need to be deburred and done properly.
All I want to point out is this video good as far as depicting tear down and Assembly of the Crosman NP.
Take no offense please.
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Thanks Gene,
None Taken :)
Rick
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Good video....just need some close-up shots when removing and replacing the little spring that holds the cocking linkage to the trigger assembly. And a close up shot on how to push out the E-clip. That would help a beginner.
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I agree with Gene on certain aspect's of this video and actual tuning procedures and applying lubes in the right places in the right amount's is very important. Ed
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Rick, so glad to see that you post on these forums. Like your honest product reviews. Been watching your videos since the start.
/me waves to Naomi :)
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I agree with Ed and Gene. This is certainly not a tuning guide by any stretch of the imagine but basically just disassembly and assembly of the gun. And one thing for sure... you certainly do not want to polish the chamber or piston. Tuning goes far far beyond what is in the video.
CDT
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Always good to see the footsteps in the snow, so to speak, so you don't wander off the trail when doing things mechanical like this.
One thing I'm sure no one has pointed out is the title of the thread. Nothing like buying a new gun only to "rebuild" it, is there? Ironic. Current discussion of the same over on the Crosman Gate.
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I appreciate the video. It is a good tutorial on the break down and reassembly of the rifle. I have seen a lot of rifles apart, but I can't recall seeing a video of the process. That spring compressor looks handy. Very unique. Is there any chance of it damaging the scope rail? I don't know how much force you must apply to remove the end cap.
Again great job on the video, your reviews are great.
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Hey there guys..
I just wanted to jump back in for a moment and clarify something. I used the term "polish" with regards to the compression chamber and piston which was obviously the wrong term. I've conferred with my associate about the scotch bright pad concept and it does the same "cross hatching" (forgive me if I did not spell "hatching" correctly) as a hone. Having never tried either, I'm eager to see how they work. I have enough guns here to test!
Also, I do want to reiterate that this was never meant to be a "how to TUNE your airgun" video. I've got a lot of learning to do before I would ever claim to know what I'm doing in that area. This was simply a video to show how these guns come apart and go back together and what basic tools and lubes are needed, i.e. Molly Paste.
As for the spring compressor and the scope rail. I've used it on everything from the NP guns to the Gamo Hunter Extreme. It's held up to anything that I've thrown at it so far. My original design had a shorter compressor screw that has been upgraded to be 2" longer.
In working on this for about a year now, there are a variety of other "parts" that you need to work on various guns, but the basic compressor works really well. I'm going to get the plans from my welder and post them on my site. I'll let everyone know once they are there.
Thanks to everyone that has jumped in and commented on this post.
Cheers
Rick Eutsler
AirgunWeb.com
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good video
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Rick,
Nice video and I enjoy your airgun reviews on the YouTube (one of the reasons that I am addicted to AGs now, thanks).
The upside down scope mounting technique for the compressor is real cool, I don't think I've seen that approach before.
John
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Still a good how to break an airgun down vid and a good stepping stone for the new guy wanting to take a peek inside his or her shooter. Ed
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I would like to say that the style of spring compressor that Rick has come up with is ingenious. When buying different kinds of springer's/gas rams there can be a difference in spring pressure. Some need special adaptors relieve pressure off of spring in order to remove them. Some springs are extremely powerful and very hard to compress.
Using scope mounts does raise a flag with me. They may work just fine with light duty springs but I would be hesitant to use this setup with a magnum springer.
Scope mounts are made to hold scopes and not designed to withstand high weight applied to them. It would seem to me that the 11 mm and 3/8" rail system would allow for slippage with extreme pressure applied.
These scope mounts for the most part are cast aluminum machined for specific millimeter scopes. They could break easily under pressure.
JMO with a bit of logic thrown in..:)
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The scope mount compressor is not a new idea and somebody was playing with the idea 6 or 8 years ago. I even toyed with the idea myself. It was tried by several people but because of the length required to compress a spring it put a lot of pressure on the rear of the mount and the upward pressure that sometimes occurs sheared the rails. And there is no way of telling in advance when the failure is going to occur. With that in mind, I wasn't about to take a chance. I'm sure that is the reason why it was never marketed. A lawsuit in the making.
In my opinion it is not a very safe mount and under the pressure of a spring can cause a dangerous situation. It certainly isn't something that I would ever use with the exception of perhaps a gas ram. To me, it is just an accident waiting to happen and I wouldn't want to see anybody get hurt but to each his own.
Just my opinion.
CDT
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Hey there.. It's Rick here again.
I wanted to explain a bit about how the connection between the rifle and the compressor is made so that, without assumption, folks can make up their own mind.
Again I want to say that who am I compared to wealth of knowledge of folks like Gene and CDT and I would certainly encourage folks to carefully consider their input.
I use a 2 step approach to hold the gun securely. Again, I've tested everything from a simple NP gun up to the Gamo Hunter Extreme. I've also used it with guns like the Tech Force 89 that has the miserable trigger block that sits down in the chamber. With any tool that is used under pressure, you have to be extremely careful. This is no different.
I use a 1" tube and a set of inverted weaver mounts. If you are working on guns that have them, then you are all set. No other attachments are necessary and they are rock solid. Most guns still use the 11mm rail which gets a bit tricky. What I do in these cases is to use the UTG 11mm to Weaver adapter with the stop pin which has been 100% successful in my tests.
Now the most difficult are guns that don't have a hole for the stop pin. These are a problem and you have to get creative. I've used the BKL 11mm to Weaver mount, which holds like iron, and I've used scope stops, whichever seems to be the safer choice given the task at hand.
Whenever you are testing something for the first time there are bound to be issues that come up.. But the test pilots and test drivers do get to have the most fun. At some point you have to just see if it is going to work.
So far, and again what is my experience compared to that of others, I've had great success with the design. Does it have it's limitations.. of course it does.. it must. There is always that circumstance that will trump the tool.. That is why we have so many different tools.
I'm working on a short article about the compressor and how I came by the design. Once it is done I'll post it on my site.
Cheers and have a great weekend.
Rick
AirgunWeb.com
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Well I surely thought the spring compressor idea was new when I came up with it in nov 2011!
Nobody seemed to know anything about it then.
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Hey there Bob,
Seems like a simple solution for securing the gun. I couldn't imagine that I was the first guy to try it. So far I've had great success with it. You still need to be careful and pay attention to what you are doing or it will bite you. But, that is the case for whatever you use to work on these guns.
I'm going to have a post soon (hopefully) that will be a close up look on how I put it together. Maybe you can help me refine the design from your experiences? I welcome any help that makes it more versatile and safer.
Cheers
Rick Eutsler
Airgunweb.
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Hey Bob P. I did see your article regarding your compressor but I didn't say anything at the time and I never saw anything after that.
However, it was not a new idea and there was a guy about eight or nine years ago that had come up with the same idea and was thinking about selling them. Talked about how safe it was and could not fail. I thought at the time it was dangerous and that it was surely an accident waiting to happen. ::) Sure enough, he was using it to install a new spring in a gun and it let go and ripped a big chuck out of his bicep muscle I believe it was. :'( :'( There may be some of the old timers around that remember it. Anyhow, that ended that. It was a good thing that he hadn't started selling them yet because that could have just as easily been a customer. He would quite easily have been paying someone for the rest of his life. :( :o
And it's also probably why you have never seen any spring compressor of that kind of design on the market either. A lawsuit in the making. :o
And I'll say this... just be extremely careful when you use yours (if you still have it) because it is in my opinion an extremely dangerous design and again, an accident waiting to happen and over time is almost guaranteed to hurt or under the right conditions, possibly even kill somebody. :o :'(
In fact, I'm going to discuss it with Gene and quite possibly remove any reference to the design and mount from our forum. I consider it to be that dangerous.
CDT
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Not for nuthin, but even given that the potential for the mounts breaking loose exists, that seems quite a lot of force to cause the damage you just described Charlie. Point being, wer'e not looking at a fully compressed spring, but only preload. I have no doubt you could lose a couple teeth, maybe even crack a jaw if one got loose and hit ya just right, but tearing a chunk of flesh out of an arm seems a but much. I've recently done some testing of springs in regards to my own admittedly possibly misguided efforts, and loading an inch or two as with preload doesn't seem near enough energy to rip through inches of flesh. Severe bruising perhaps, but not tearing and ripping.
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I got news for you Paul68. You need to read more regarding this and my post above and related information as well as other videos. In one video he is referring to, using it and making and selling it as a full spring compressor. In fact, he talks above about using it on a Hunter Extreme. You are talking about 3-400 lbs and even more on some magnum guns of loaded spring pressure at near coil bind getting away.
Gene and I were working on a gun and installing a new spring and it was almost fully compressed. It slipped off the Delrin block at the rear and let go. It just missed Gene and flew across the room and tore a chunk of wood out of a cabinet door about 12 feet away. And there have been plenty of stories and articles out there over the years about people getting getting ripped open, severely injured or badly hurt by flying spring blocks, springs or spring compressors failing. So don't tell me... or Gene... and all the others that have been hurt about what it can or cannot do.
The safety of our membership is paramount so don't even think of minimizing to our membership the dangers and injuries in the event that something like that occurs.
CDT
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Hello again Folks.
Just as a note. Given the controversy and potential liability of building and selling anything to work on spring guns, I have no intention of trying to market this product or its design (I had already come to that conclusion a while back). I will post photos and other data on my own site when I have the time to do so in case people want to experiment on their own.
I have used it personally for over a year now on all manner of guns, yes including the Hunter Extreme, and have found it to be very useful. There are dangers inherent to this kind of work regardless of what you use. Diligence, comment sense, and never forgetting the energy that these guns can store just sitting still, is critical to avoid serious injury.
For example.. if you are working on a gun that is suspected to have a partially compressed broken spring, you would never want any part of your body in front of where that spring could come loose. It would be like looking down the barrel of a black powder gun that had a misfire. You'd want to take the same caution when working on a new gun that you are unfamiliar with.
Most of the guns that I use this compressor with are gas ram guns or gamo/crosman spring guns, i.e. very little preload on the springs. While I've used it on more powerful guns without incident, they require even more concentration and attention to what's going on while you work. Personally, I don't even like working on those guns. I've done so simply to prove the concept to myself.
I certainly don't want to get into a big diatribe over this. My intent for the original post was to show a folks how to simply disassemble and reassemble a basic NP based Crosman gun so they can get the most out of their airgun, not try and sell or promote a spring compressor.
Regards,
Rick Eutsler, Jr.
AirgunWeb.com
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And I "got news for you" as well Charlie. I was not referring to a fully compressed spring, and I see no other references to such as well. I don't disagree at all that a fully compressed spring is a serious hazard, but that is not what I was talking about. Perhaps YOU should pay a little more attention to what YOU read, and learn a little more regarding tact and respect for others even though they may not accept 100% of what you say as gospel or accurate. That skin of yours seems a might bit thin to be honest. I've been noticing this quite a bit as I've perused this forum, and this less than cordial response of yours is a fine example.
There is no denying your intents are well placed, and safety is indeed of utmost importance, but rather than take a minor disagreement as an opportunity to explain and teach, you've instead appeared to have chosen to blow it far out of proportion and misrepresent my position in order to defend and protect an ego.
At any rate, my observations are confirmed, and for that I thank you. I'll be taking my leave of this forum now, as I am not interested in , nor do I need, condecension or scolding.
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Hey Rick… I was already aware of the fact that you stated that you were not considering making the spring compressor to market. What I was doing previously in my response to Bob P was relating the fact that many years ago somebody was considering the same spring compressor concept. In that response I also related to the results what had happened and injury that it had caused. :( I was making no reference to gas rams in that post.
Paul 68 evidently did not read in its entirety or misread what I had said and/or took it out of context. ??? ??? He also evidently did not read your reference to the Gamo Hunter extreme and it being used as a spring compressor. ??? I made no reference to any gas ram application but only as a spring application in that post. :D
I certainly did not mean to blow anything out of nor do I think I blew anything out of proportion and I am certainly not thin skinned but can be a very critical when it comes to safety. And it is certainly not a question of defending or protecting my ego. It's just that I am very critical of anything that can be dangerous when it comes to protecting and preventing the possibility of any injury to the forum membership because of any misunderstandings or misinformation. ;D
My problem is that I sometimes can be very blunt and to the point and some people can't handle that and take it personally. If that happens, my apologies.
I certainly understand your intent of your original post and what it is that you're contributing to our forum and that is much appreciated. And using the design of your compressor in the way that you're using it with a gas ram, and not as a true spring compressor, certainly greatly reduces but certainly does not eliminate the dangers.
Thanks again Rick and we looking forward to further contributions from you. ;)
CDT
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Paul68…. I’m asking you not to leave and to reconsider it but that is your decision. My intentions were not to be condescending or scolding or show you any disrespect. If that is the way that you perceived them then I apologize to both you and the members. But I do have my opinions and state them sometimes rather forcefully for lack of other terminology. That is especially true when it comes to any safety issues.
CDT
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I'm still working on finalizing the design for my spring compressor.
This thread has caused me to take a very cautious, careful look and make a couple of changes.
I'll post pics in a new thread, once construction gets under way. The design is definitely "overkill", to put it mildly ( you'll see what I mean later . . . LOL ! ), but my "changes" were mainly in the way the rifle action is restrained and supported.
I happened to have a bunch of "odds & ends" lying around and these are the basis for my spring compressor .
Thank, guys !
Dave
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Though Ive had no problem using the design on some powerful springers,there is a first time for everything! Think Ill just stick with my drill press..
Thanks Charlie