GTA
GTA Intro and Help => Boss's Corner => Topic started by: GTA-Airgunner on April 22, 2025, 10:50:13 AM
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Good Morning Airgunners! Thank you for being part of the GTA!
So today's topic is a fruit of some of the shooting I've been doing. I recently received the Crosman Prospect .22, a $400 regulated PCP that pushes about 27 foot-pounds throughout the shot string. I've tested two of them. The first one was great out of the box, although I did not have much time with it before I had to send it back. This sample is mine to keep (Thank you, Crosman!), so I'll have more time to really put it through its paces. Be sure to check AirgunWeb for the video coverage. I'll send it over to the GTA for a proper GRiP review as well, but that will take a bit, given all the other products ahead of it.
Anyway, my new Crosman Prospect needed some TLC out of the box. I actually cleaned the barrel because the out-of-the-box results were measuring up to my other sample. Anyway, after a good barrel cleaning, it started to shoot like I expected, which brings me to today's question. What are your expectations for budget airgun performance? Here are my thoughts.
First of all, my cutoff for budget PCP airguns is about $500. So anything under $500 is budet. From $501 to say $1200 is mid range. And anything over $1201 is high-end. I'm sure folks may have different thoughts, but that's where I'm at on it. So here what I want from a budget airgun.
1. less than 15 fps throughout the shot string on a regulated gun
2. 2" CTC or better at 50 yards for plinking around. 1" CTC or better if it's marketed for hunting - This is not a once off, but an overall average of what it can produce 90% of the time.
I was thinking about all kinds of other things that I want to see, but they are all super subjective. There's shot count, energy, aesthetics, etc. but in the end, I just want something that can shoot consistently and accurately. Ideally I'd love to only ever shoot SUB MOA airguns, but that's a lot harder to find than you might think, especially for $500 or less.
Anyway, I'm curious to know what you all think about the subject. My post tomorrow will be about the value of upgrading a "budget airgun" vs just buying high end up front.
Thanks again for being part of the GTA!
Cheers
Rick
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What do I expect? Decent design but Lots of assembly errors. Poor quality control. The occasional utterly bizarre fault like the gas ram installed backwards or loose screws rattling around inside the mechanism. Cheap materials. Crummy plastic sights. Ergonomics sacrificed for style. Worthless plastic bling. Hype. A short service life and frustrating performance issues.
What I want from a budget airgun? Accuracy. I can cope with or fix the other issues as long as the gun is intrinsically accurate.
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That's awesome feedback. After 18 years doing this work.. I can tell you that your assessment is spot on with budget guns. Getting one that doesn't have some or all of those issues is the exception to the rule. I will say that things have gotten better since I started. Brands like Macavity are a good example. Most of what I run into these days are silly mistakes and poor quality o-rings. Every avenger I've owned has leaked within the first 12 to 24 months.
Thanks again for jumping into the discussion.. and thank you for being a part of the GTA.
Cheers
Rick
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Pardon me. I’m kinda grumpy. I took advantage of your subject to dump a little. We’re all aware of the shortcomings of budget/entry level air guns. I know that styling is important for marketing a budget gun. Look how the styles change constantly. I would like to see a simple, unadorned gun in a traditional looking stock. But styling like that is not going to sell the volume of product that the retailer wants. Crosman’s Summit Ranger of a few years ago is a case in point. A nice conventional synthetic stock, great iron sights, sling swivels, and a barrel unadorned with plastic. Boring. Apparently no one bought them.
I enjoy the innovation that is a big part of the air gun hobby right now. The folks marketing budget guns want theirs to be innovative too. So we have a fad for magazine fed break barrels. Everything has to have a moderator/shroud now. The cheap scope conundrum is well known.
This isn’t going to change. It’s just the nature of the game at this price point.
On the plus side they are cheap and plentiful. If you strip all the bling off you often find a decent air gun underneath.
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What Sam said, and, there is probably a big difference between a $200 budget gun and one for $500, at least I'd expect it to be so. And I think expectations depend a lot on how experienced with airguns a person is.
With respect to pcp guns, it seems like the lower the price, the less adjustability is built in. More expensive guns may have adjustments for the regulator, hammer spring, hammer throw, transfer port, and/or trigger. Cheaper guns aren't as user-friendly for changing things, and make you tear them down and fuss around if you want to. So, I guess my expectation for a cheaper gun is that you accept it 'as-is'.
The other side of that is, a more experienced user would probably be more inclined to do things to a cheap gun that they wouldn't to a more expensive gun. Treat it more like a kit that you have to disassemble, clean, smooth out, and otherwise tinker. There is some satisfaction in taking a cheap gun and making it shoot good.
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It always amazes me the some people consider a $400 - $500 airgun to be a a budget gun. To me $500 is alot of money to spend on anything that is not a necessity.
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It always amazes me the some people consider a $400 - $500 airgun to be a a budget gun. To me $500 is alot of money to spend on anything that is not a necessity.
+1
IMO the only truly budget PCP out there is a Crosman 3622, with the Diana Stormrider and Beeman Chief not far behind.
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One of the best entry level airguns i have touched is the mcavitiy its spot on worst thing is the front rail its kinda flimsey. ill write something up about them, another thing is the reg is externally adjusted, the hammer is easy to adjust. . the one im shooting is a 25 caliber agility its one of the first the newer ones come with 2 gauges.. David
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The Pinty P-Force rifle strikes me as more of a budget gun.
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As the owner of two budget PCP's and the soon-to-be owner of a third I have an interest here. The C3622 is as basic as it gets but it does have an adjustable hammer spring and it's very upgradable. The Beeman Raider has some nice features like an adjustable hammer spring, excellent magazines, and a gauge. The forthcoming Hatsan Flash-R is regulated. I purchased all of these guns for well under MSRP making them real budget guns. More and more features are trickling down to the entry level. The quality of the two guns I have is better than adequate for their price point and it's hard to expect manufacturers to sell higher quality guns for these prices.
Interestingly marketing budget springers seem to be all about the bling and the hype. The advertising and reviews for entry level PCP's seem to be a bit more sober. The features they tout for budget PCP's seem to be a lot more practical than a magazine on a 1200 FPS break barrel. ???
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If I were in the buying mood the Pinty P-Rifle would be right in the center of my radar.
3600 psi regulated.
Wood and metal.
Side lever action.
2 mags included.
Shoots common pellets.
Good reviews on shot count and accuracy.
Tunable.
Light weight and compact.
Pleasing on the eyes.
Right around $200 with discounts. So it won't be a safe queen.
Shrouded but can remove to add a silencer but not needed in my case... it's a non issue.
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Hum..... entry-level pcp under $500.
That would put my Urban in that category.
I have had it for about 3 years now and not a hint of a problem. One shot kills at 50+ yards all day long.
This "entry-level "pcp has turned me off to any future pcp's. It's just to easy! No challenge.
When I need to dispatch something quick I grab the Urban.
The moral to this story is more money doesn't always mean a better gun.
I don't think you can pigeon hole an airgun as entry-level ,ect using cost only.
That's just me.
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Not to argue but I do own the Urban and agree that it's a great gun but I found a couple downsides to it in comparisons to the P-Rifle.
Regulator
Side lever
Composite vs. wood
Expensive non existent mags
Non removable moderator
Parts availability
The Urban gets around 30 unregulated shots per fill... not an efficient gun at all.
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I told my wife this is a cheap hobby.
Okay, stop laughing. Y’all should see what my boating hobby costs. It is obvious that we all have different ideas of what constitutes budget level pricing. I haven’t yet paid more than $200 for an air rifle and I hope I never do. That bars me from owning a lot of fine air rifles I know. But I have a heck of a lot of fun with these cheap ones and I can’t see how spending $700 or $800 is going to reward me with a commensurate increase in the satisfaction I get.
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Bill
I think is all boiles down to personal preference and intended use.
I only hunt with my Urban so shot count,regulated,ect isn't a issue. I got mine turned up and only get about 15 or so good shots.
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I told my wife this is a cheap hobby.
Okay, stop laughing. Y’all should see what my boating hobby costs. It is obvious that we all have different ideas of what constitutes budget level pricing. I haven’t yet paid more than $200 for an air rifle and I hope I never do. That bars me from owning a lot of fine air rifles I know. But I have a heck of a lot of fun with these cheap ones and I can’t see how spending $700 or $800 is going to reward me with a commensurate increase in the satisfaction I get.
Here Here.
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Bill
I think is all boiles down to personal preference and intended use.
I only hunt with my Urban so shot count,regulated,ect isn't a issue. I got mine turned up and only get about 15 or so good shots.
Yes Sir... personal preference and intended use is key. I plink and take pests when the opportunity arises.
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Bill
By the way how is that single shot mag working for you?
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Bill
By the way how is that single shot mag working for you?
Works great... I was using it a couple days ago. I also got my 2 aftermarket mags working good.
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Bill
By the way how is that single shot mag working for you?
Works great... I was using it a couple days ago. I also got my 2 aftermarket mags working good.
Great!!
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I used to be able to buy Airforce airguns for under $500.00. Seneca rifles as well... ah, those were the days!!
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The Pinty P-Force Tactical was a great value. I enjoy shooting it with the laid back single shot loading.
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My expectations for a budget airgun? Disappointment, lol.
As others here have said, poor workmanship, cheap materials and lack of QC are too often present in modern "budget" airguns.
Some manufacturers, not all, have non-existent customer service and/or zero parts support.
I don't consider guns over $200 as budget guns. A lot of folks won't even consider anything above that price.
The industry seems to be trying to get us to accept a never ending parade of new models with escalating prices and tiny incremental improvements. The music equipment industry does the same thing. Fender guitars brings out a new Stratocaster every two years, different paint jobs, minor parts changes and a $200+ price increase; then they hype the #$%# out of it.
I would like to see more simple, dependable airguns made with decent materials in the "budget" range. Could we at least get simple metal sights back?? Offering more value in the budget sector could bring more new people into our hobby. Don't give them a terrible first experience, not everyone wants to repair and tweak their new gun (like I do).
</rant>
Cheers,
G
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Hey there all,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the subject. I guess I should have been more specific and said Budget PCPs, but this has led to some great insights on things. The term "budget" is certainly subjective. When I started, spending $100 on an airgun was a lot of money. That has changed over the years as I've become more involved in the hobby. I bought my Daystate Red Wolf off the back of the AOA van. That's certainly NOT budget. But it's an incredible shooting experience and was worth it to me. I also bought some Air Arms guns over the years, BSA, FX, and Daystate too. As much as I love those guns, I think I get more enjoyment out of my Seneca (Sumatra), JTS, Barra, and Macavity guns. I don't know why, but my "nice" airguns tend to spend more time in the safe or their cases, then they do on the bench.
Do you all have airguns at both ends of the price spectrum? If so, which do you spend more time shooting?
Cheers
Rick
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Nope... I'm a chartered member of the nothing over 300 club. I have, on occasion invested slightly more on upgrades.
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Y’all have heard my opinion. If I win the lottery I might break my rule. Although I’d probably buy a TX200 or a HW.
There are high end springers and there are high end PCP’s. Why are there no high end pumpers? And don’t tell me Benjis and Dans because they never sold for the kind of prices I’m talking about.
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LOL... ever priced a SuperGrade? Yikes !!
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Hey there all,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the subject. I guess I should have been more specific and said Budget PCPs, but this has led to some great insights on things. The term "budget" is certainly subjective. When I started, spending $100 on an airgun was a lot of money. That has changed over the years as I've become more involved in the hobby. I bought my Daystate Red Wolf off the back of the AOA van. That's certainly NOT budget. But it's an incredible shooting experience and was worth it to me. I also bought some Air Arms guns over the years, BSA, FX, and Daystate too. As much as I love those guns, I think I get more enjoyment out of my Seneca (Sumatra), JTS, Barra, and Macavity guns. I don't know why, but my "nice" airguns tend to spend more time in the safe or their cases, then they do on the bench.
Do you all have airguns at both ends of the price spectrum? If so, which do you spend more time shooting?
Cheers
Rick
My most expensive PCP is a gen. 2 wood stocked Marauder, and I got that heavily discounted. I like it a lot but shoot my less expensive guns more, mainly because they are smaller/lighter and I'm not so worried about getting them dinged up. :D
Cheers,
G
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Bill, yeah supergrades bring a lot of money these days. But they didn’t sell new for anything like the dissimilarity we see in standard grade vs premium grades today. There never were a lot of them and they aren’t in production now. That drives the price up. I just wondered why no one offers a high grade pumper today.
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Bill, yeah supergrades bring a lot of money these days. But they didn’t sell new for anything like the dissimilarity we see in standard grade vs premium grades today. There never were a lot of them and they aren’t in production now. That drives the price up. I just wondered why no one offers a high grade pumper today.
I love my pumpers too. No worry about carrying along a separate hand pump, or anything else but pellets. It is a pitty that they seem to have fallen out of favor. But man, the power levels of my lower priced "budget pcps" is just unbeatable comparatively speaking.. I'm with Avator and Blow pipe Sam. I ain't A gonna pay more than the $500 level when I have the fun I have with my "cheap" pcp's.
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Reading this thread with great interest. I'm still debating the PCP rabbit hole, might need a few more years of thinking about it. Not sure if I want to deal with the electric pump, maybe hand pumping will be the workout I need. If I were to buy a budget PCP, I'd have a preference for minimal plastic. Excellent accuracy is a very big deal, great trigger is a big deal. Tacticool is a negative although if it was extremely accurate with a good trigger, I could tolerate some tacticool features. Single shot is OK although a multi shot would be a plus. Probably would want a .22. So I'd want my budget PCP to be very accurate, great trigger, pretty reliable, beautiful or at least decent wood and metal finishes. I don't want owning a PCP to turn into an occupation dealing with problems. Maybe I'm not describing a budget PCP.
Is an HW 30s a budget AG? It was less than $300 a couple years ago. I felt like a was getting a pretty good bang for the buck with that one.
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Question...
What would airgunning be like for you if you knew that every time you pulled the trigger the pellet was going to hit the head of a tack at say, 50 yds? How long would it take to become somewhat boring leaving you with the desire for something more challenging?
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Question...
What would airgunning be like for you if you knew that every time you pulled the trigger the pellet was going to hit the head of a tack at say, 50 yds? How long would it take to become somewhat boring leaving you with the desire for something more challenging?
Great question!
If it took no effort, I would be bored very quickly, less than a tin of pellets.
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Daystate made a higher end pumper some years ago, the "Sportsman" I think. It cost over $500 at the time, which would probably be $700 or $800 or more today. Must not have been profitable for them as they were only made for a few years, then discontinued. So, sure, a higher quality pumper is achievable, but maybe not profitable. Hence probably why nobody is making them.
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Question...
What would airgunning be like for you if you knew that every time you pulled the trigger the pellet was going to hit the head of a tack at say, 50 yds? How long would it take to become somewhat boring leaving you with the desire for something more challenging?
Great question!
If it took no effort, I would be bored very quickly, less than a tin of pellets.
My Akela was easily accurate, so I waited to shoot it at my buddy's 100 yd range to make NUAH in .177. Otherwise, it didn't get shot alot. My new Pinty rifle is stupid accurate it too. Will it suffer the same fate?
Guns that are accurate but demand some effort get shot more I suspect for me.
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Question...
What would airgunning be like for you if you knew that every time you pulled the trigger the pellet was going to hit the head of a tack at say, 50 yds? How long would it take to become somewhat boring leaving you with the desire for something more challenging?
Thats me Bill!
I got bored plinking with my Urban and 2027 real quick they are now strictly just for hunting. I hate to say it but when I just want to have fun I grab what I consider a budget airgun a well tuned B3. When I feel adventurous I grab one of my tuned Ruger Air Magnums. When I feel nostalgic I grab my QB58.
The point being they are all cheap springers.
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Question...
What would airgunning be like for you if you knew that every time you pulled the trigger the pellet was going to hit the head of a tack at say, 50 yds? How long would it take to become somewhat boring leaving you with the desire for something more challenging?
Thats me Bill!
I got bored plinking with my Urban and 2027 real quick they are now strictly just for hunting. I hate to say it but when I just want to have fun I grab what I consider a budget airgun a well tuned B3. When I feel adventurous I grab one of my tuned Ruger Air Magnums. When I feel nostalgic I grab my QB58.
The point being they are all cheap springers.
Exactly. I have guns that hit right where I aim them.. I tend to bring them out more if we have a visitor. When I'm alone I bring others out and challenge myself to shoot them better.
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I have no experience with any PCP and may or may not get one. The touted accuracy and, especially, the capacity for quick successive shots, are appealing. But I really don't mind pumping my guns at all and loathe needing lots of "stuff" to do something that can be accomplished well with other guns, including PB.
I'm still having fun (and challenge, too) with my pumpers. Purchases ranged from $55 to $400. If there actually were a new high-end multipumper made that fit me, I'd be willing to pay the premium price.
Because I don't go nuts buying things (any kind), price is not the barrier as much as simply not seriously wanting anything else yet.
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Great thread Rick. I appreciate the content. I only have budget guns. I have learned from previous melt downs that I need to be ready to resolve issues with a budget gun. Which leads me to the tinkering aspect. Some day I might be able to get a higher end gun but until that happens I'm pretty sure my stable can handle whatever I throw at it. I can relate with keeping the really nice ones put away. I have a .177 marauder that sits in a Steve Corcoran stock and it rarely even gets out of the case.
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Question...
What would airgunning be like for you if you knew that every time you pulled the trigger the pellet was going to hit the head of a tack at say, 50 yds? How long would it take to become somewhat boring leaving you with the desire for something more challenging?
If a challenge is desired, all one has to do is take their super accurate bench rifle and shoot standing/offhand. You will no longer be bored hitting the head of a tack every time at any distance. If you can do that offhand, there'll be a place for you on the Olympic team.
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Question...
What would airgunning be like for you if you knew that every time you pulled the trigger the pellet was going to hit the head of a tack at say, 50 yds? How long would it take to become somewhat boring leaving you with the desire for something more challenging?
If a challenge is desired, all one has to do is take their super accurate bench rifle and shoot standing/offhand. You will no longer be bored hitting the head of a tack every time at any distance. If you can do that offhand, there'll be a place for you on the Olympic team.
That is a very good point!
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My “bench” is a thirty year old picnic table. My “rest” is a fifty caliber ammo can. My “bag” is a canvas sack with five lbs of #4shot in it. That stuff is just for chronographing and diagnostics. Most of my shooting is from the seated unsupported position or the standing unsupported position. I practice year round for hunting season. My XS60C is stupidly, boringly accurate out to forty yards. Even off hand it gets boring quickly. My standard of accuracy for hunting is five out of seven shots inside 1” at twenty yards. Not tack driving but I do it off hand and it makes meat. With the XS60C I can do that all day. The “skinny lady” as I call it doesn’t get used much in the off season but it’s a go-to gun during hunting season. That’s true of my other very accurate guns too. They get coddled and “saved” for hunting season.
The guns I spend the most time shooting are the frustrating ones that keep me awake at night plotting how to cure their issues.
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I never expect much from a budget airgun, most times I am pleasantly suprised. I have been let down more often with higher end airguns, maybe I expect them to work like my cheapos ??? LOL
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My criteria for "budget" air rifles:
NEW spring-piston break barrels under 24fpe ~$125 or LOWER
Refurbished spring-piston break barrels under 24fpe ~$80 or LOWER
NEW spring-piston break barrels over 24fpe ~$200 or LOWER
Refurbished spring-piston break barrels over 24fpe ~$140 or LOWER
NEW PCPs ~$250 or LOWER
Refurbished PCPs ~$150 or LOWER
Some examples I own:
Hatsan Edge Combo new $100
Hatsan Edge refurb $40
Hatsan Mod95 new $125
Hatsan Mod95 refurb $80
Beeman underlever bullpup new $230
Hatsan AT44 new (sale) $240
Hatsan Flash refurb <$130
My criteria for performance is primarily accuracy:
PCPs should be pellet-on-pellet at 30' (my current indoor range limit).
Break barrels should be 20pellets UNDER a penny at 30' using open sights.
I LIKE to see velocity/muzzle-energy NEAR spec but I also KNOW most manufacturers specs are MAX BEST CASE. Muzzle energy 25% below spec is not an issue for me IF the accuracy is GOOD.
For MY budget rifles "NEW" I expect basic function right out of the box. Never surprised by a few minor factory assembly errors but overall performance should be adequate.
For the refurbs I expect SEVERAL defects like poorly formed factory parts, some assembly defects, and some HAM FISTED TINKERING defects from previous owners and/or poorly trained repair staff.
Since I ENJOY working on my own airguns I'll perform all the repair work myself. Pretty certain I'll get BETTER results than from any of the manufacturers repair facilities. They HAD their chance and failed.
Common issues:
malformed parts
assembly errors (like trigger springs in the wrong place)
damaged piston and/or breech seals
BAD muzzle crowns
misaligned open sights
WAY-too-much grease or crumbly sludge where way-too-much grease used to be
loose and damaged fasteners
My expectations are LOW, but so is my cost. I usually get exactly what I paid for :-)
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Had my XS60c out yesterday as well. Still can't get over how accurate that airgun is, and it is the least expensive one I own... :o
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This is such a great thread.. I don't even know where to begin.
I have guns that are "boringly accurate," and they're fun to shoot, but the fun wears off pretty quickly. My Air Arms S510s, Daystate Revere, and my FX Wildcat are all part of that group. But I also have guns like the JTS Airacuda Max and Barra 1100z (gen 1 or gen 2) that can put down some seriously good groups. I do like a challenge, but not too much of one, lol.
I consider mostly all my PCPs as easy to shoot.. the guns that give me the challenge are my spring guns. Those guns give me the most joy, especially when it all comes together.
The one gun that's going to be a challenge with a nice payoff is going to be the new Hajimoto Productions Gauntlet rebuild. Haji provided his results at 25 and 50 yards and I can get close, but I want to be able to match them. The gun is so light. You better have the perfect technique to really get consistent accuracy. It has shots for days and is incredibly consistent. I just need to up my game. I do enjoy shooting a gun like this as it pushes me to be a better marksman.
I need to go post today's topic.
Thanks for all your great input and for being part of the GTA!
Cheers
Rick
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Has anyone mentioned Umarex Notos? For $229 (Amazon), it cannot be beat IMHO. Mine is a tack driver right out of the box. Compact, lightweight, low maintenance, holds air forever and is very quiet. My first PCP and a dangerous invitation to a trip down the rabbit hole.
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the NOTOS.. keep forgetting that gun. We had a pre-launch sample here for Airgun Expo 2022, and it was awesome. I gave mine to our ranch foreman and he's loving it. It's a great option for getting your feet wet with PCPs.
Cheers
Rick
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as per the question, it has to have some guts (~900fps for .177, ~700 for .22) first and foremost. I don't need a 360fps trap tickler.
Consistency and accuracy are of equal importance to me.
Plastic is a necessary evil these days, but less of it is better. Especially for breeches and such.
I could go on but that's a good thumbnail sketch.