GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Artemis/SPA Airguns => Topic started by: Nvreloader on April 06, 2025, 12:41:18 PM
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Hey Guys
I got a New Dragon Fly I, 22 cal rifle, it's the 1st model of this series,
and it is a beast to pump as compared to my Model II cal version.
I got a strong itch to see what makes it twitch and if I can make it
slightly easier to pump up.
There is a VAST DIFFERENCE between these two models.
I can tell you now, I WON'T be doing 3-5 shot groups per each pump level test,
for the average, not the way this thing pumps.
I compared it against my Sheridan's and the Sheridan is easy, next to this DF I.
Anyone else have this same model?
What are your thoughts and suggestions?
Tia,
Don
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Subscribing.
I’ve been interested in the Dragonfly since it was introduced. A wood and steel pumper with a magazine? Sign me up!
But the response to the first model was not good. High pumping effort seemed to be the most common issue. Then the mark II came out. Completely different pump arm geometry. So obviously the pumping effort was a big enough problem that the manufacturer felt they had to fix it. The mark II seems to be an improvement but the gun has never been as popular as I expected. I’m interested in hearing your opinion of the mark I. This gun is on my “List”. I intend to own one eventually I just got temporarily distracted by PCP’s. ;D
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BPSam
I don't know if you have read my post on the DF II 22 cal tests I did,
go to here:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=195725.0
And start at pg 17, post # 324 for all the info I found out about this DF II,
there is hidden power inside, you just have to find it....
I plan on doing the same with the DF I model, with less pumping...Lol
Tia,
Don
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So the pump handle of the DFs end with a block of wood as a forestock that meets up neatly with the stock proper, the part that holds the receiver, trigger etc. Grab this forestock and pump away. But what if one made a replacement forestock that extended below the stock proper, like a hamster, so one could grab the hamster and pump, with added leverage?
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Don's DF II thread is the most in depth I am aware of!
I don't shoot it much anymore, but I shot the DF I nearly everyday for a couple of years.
The transfer port on mine needed some cleaning up. I made a barrel band of sorts between the muzzle cover and the bottom tube. This eliminated the POI shift I had been seeing.
I prefer the heavier cocking. Find the right posture for pumping and its enjoyable exercise. Putting some cushioning material in the pump handle can help dampen the clack. I wish the arm was longer, however, kind of like the 362 length.
A correctly and securely attached scope can serve as a pump handle for leverage. I used a simmons at first, but since I shot it so often I put a hawke vantage 2-7 on it.
I often shot 1 or 2 pumps, chasing my curiosities about low velocity accuracy. The ftt greens and spitzkugels typically did well.
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I made up an extension, have not installed it yet, I just pump to 4 or 5 or get the DF2 and pump to 12 :)
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/gallery/17377-060425184043.jpeg)
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I can tell you this bit of info, from just handling the DF I model,
it will not be as accurate as the DF II model.
I can slip a .010" thick feeler gage between the bbl and the rear sight mount....
there is that much slop between the bbl/sight mount, all the way around the bbl,
and if you put any pressure on the bbl muzzle.
You can almost make the muzzle touch the end of the pressure tube, with very little pressure on the bbl..
I will see if the DF II front sight can be fitted to the DF I, to reduce/stop this sloppiness
of this bbl..
Back Roads,
Where did you find that add on pump handle, I LIKE it, a lot.
Bolt on, or replacement of the pump handle?? Dimensions??
I need some more info, Please.
Tia,
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Great idea, James!
x2 on "tell us more"
I just remembered that over a few years of heavy use, the trigger changed into a two stage trigger.
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I just laid it out on cardboard then cut it out of some 3/4 ply. I am re thinking this now and may try a larger chunk of wood and make it a one piece. My original idea was just to bolt it to the wood pump handle as seen in the photo.
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James, are you thinking of cutting the stock piece with the trigger back a bit. For instance, the 362 (and maybe the mk II?) have the stock piece by the trigger shorter and the pump handle longer for better ergonomics.
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SB
That won't help on the 1st model I of the DF.
The stock action screw for the rear sight is approximately .850" from the end of the stock and where the cut is for the handle pump'. so it can close down completely.
James design will work, I think a whole new 1 pc pump handle with the longer rear section (like his photo shows), would be the Cat's meow...
By rough measurement, the front section would have to be around,
6.00" long x 3.00" deep, 1.500" thick, (stock width) and the
long end would be about 12" x 1.500" wide..
I have got a pc of Pine wood 2" x 4" x 15" long, I make a rough shape of it
to see the results.
It's going to have to be from a tough type of lumber, ie: Oak, Hickory, Locust
to be able to take the leverage of pumping.
Your thoughts and suggestions....
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Hickory is hard to stain (blotchy) but a good choice for weight and toughness. Locust takes a stain better than hickory and it is harder but more prone to cracking. IMO I'd go with Locust.
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Thanks for the reminder, Don. Memory is a funny thing. Found myself wondering where that screw was.
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Guys
I am sorry to tell you this,
But, I can't find any "O" rings for the barrel in the US,
so until I can seal this bbl and stop the leaking, I'll hold off doing any testing.
As soon as I get the bbl sealed, I start the tests, like I did on the DF II 22 cal model.
I am thinking real hard on re cutting the OEM Grooves to a more common size,
as there is a little bit of room to work with.
Sorry,
Tia
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Well Guys,
It's Off to work I go, hi ho, hi ho...
A very nice lady sent me 4 "o" rings to fit the dragon Fly I - 22 cal rifle bbl.
I plan on doing the same type of test as I did on the DF II -22 cal,
I can tell you it won't be a 5 shot test per pump number like the DF II,
as this thing is a bear to pump once you get above 5 pumps, and per the instructions
the max pump number is 8 pumps per shot, I may go to 10 pumps max.
I'll detail and take photo's, when I check internal pump rod depth,
along with all the other spec's and diameters etc,
so here is your chance to add any info to check/test be for I start the test,
I just wish I had a 177 bbl to go along with this test.
Your Thoughts and suggestions...
Tia,
Don
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I'm curious about the 1 and 2 pump data, Don. The manual says 3 pump minimum but Ihave done a ton of shooting at 1 and 2 pumps in .177. In.22, 2 pumps might be closer to 1 pump results from the .q77 accuracywise, but we won't know til you try.
Excited for your tests, the df2 tests were incredible and thorough.
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I did mount and test the pump handle extension over the weekend, it makes 8 pumps doable, make sure to leave maybe 1/4" more gap than I did as at 7-8 pumps my 3/4" plywood flexes.
I mounted it by pre drilling the OE handle for grywall screws, then pre drilled the ply to take the threads without splitting. Holding solid. Six pumps is doable easily, one thing though is one has to reach their arm out fully to get a full pump cycle similar to the DF2.
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OK Guys
Here is some information from the Dragon Fly I 22 caliber rifle.
I started tearing apart at the muzzle end of the DF I.
Remove the 2 tiny Allen head screws on the sides,
then slide the cover cap off the end of the pressure tube,
then remove the pump arm pivot pin, Remove the pump arm.
Push the pump rod out the top of the pressure tube, and remove the pump rod.
The center pump rod is a round steel rod .470" in dia, with the top end
that is threaded with a lock nut, into the part that the top pivot pin area that attaches
to the pump handle.
This pump rod is approximately 7.125" long which includes the pump head that is inserted
inside the pump rod via a 250" dia rod
and has a .300" slot that allows the pump head to move and held in place via a .125" split pin when pumping and there is O ring at the end of the pump head for sealing while pumping...
There is a hard rubber ball that is .620" in dia, .455" thick which is sandwiched between 2 steel washers,
a .248" hole that fits over the pump head shaft. This rubber ball expands under pumping pressure, which creates the hard pumping etc.
I have an Idea on how to reduce the rubber ball swelling and pressure, more later...
I marked and measured the depth of this pump rod head, which was 6.880" long,
the depth of the valve head was 6.910" deep measured from the lowest point of the "U"
notch in the pressure tube.
Bbl hole is .134" Dia,
Action/breech TP Hole is .124" Dia,
Brass TP has a hole Dia of .136" x .295" tall x .356" dia,
w/a step on each end that fits into a rubber "O" ring on the action and the valve,
Hammer spring is 22.5#'s at max compression, (coil bound), 3.150" long,
.390" dia O/S dim, x .300" I/S dim, wire thickness = .036" with 15 coils.
Hammer weight is 882 grains x .760" dia x 1.790" long x with a 1.572"
spring tunnel x .400" in dia, and .960" hammer stroke.
Main valve is 2.520" long x .765" dia, and has a TP hole of .136" with an inside spring
with a plastic pointed cones and a 2 piece shaft, metal shaft fits inside the poppet seal
and has .185" of valve protrusion past the of the valve body end.
The valve spring is 1.550" long with .022 " thick wire, poundage rating of 5.5#s
when fully compressed, there is the same 2 white plastic tapered valve seals,
as the DF II Valve has.
More later...
your thoughts or suggestions....
Tia
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Well, it's done and here is the first test for the Dragon Fly I - 22 caliber rifle,
this was a 2 test per pumps number and averaged out.
This is a completely OEM stock rifle,
I did replace the barrel "O" Rings as they were leaking air during any shots fired.
Crosman 14.3gr pellets used for all tests:
1. 293.9 fps/89.6 mps
2. 396.8 fps/121 mps
3. 446.1 fps/136 mps
4. 475.7 fps/145 mps
5. 511.8 fps/156 mps
6. 531.4 fps/162 mps
7. 541.3 fps/165 mps
8. 561.0 fps/171 mps
9. 567.5 fps/173 mps
10. 561.0fps/171 mps
Check the post above for the OEM spec's and dimensions.
IMHO, there is more under the hood, (I would LOVE 700+ fps at 10 pumps),
like the transport air holes, that run .124" breech/action, and .136" everywhere else,
hammer weight, hammer spring weights, (I'll be using Flat wire springs), and testing
some Ideas I have about that hard rubber ball on the pump rod.
I want to go back thru the DF II Tests and review the tests, if I can find that post...
Your thoughts or suggestions....
Tia
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I will pump mine up over the crony a few times, and see IIR I was faster with a 17.9 gr pellet, no mods except pump rod adjustment way back when.
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Guys
Here some more info I found on both models of the Dragon Fly I & II, also in both calibers.
Photo's of the DFI pump head, showing all the parts.
https://airgunwarriors.com/community/airgun-talk/that-daffy-dfly-piston/#post-9353
https://airgunwarriors.com/community/airgun-talk/some-dragonfly-mk2-numbers/#post-57059
https://airgunwarriors.com/community/airgun-talk/that-daffy-dfly-piston/paged/1/
https://airgunwarriors.com/community/airgun-talk/results-of-tinkering-with-the-dragonfly-ac-ssp/#post-11475
Tia,
Don
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OK I did a few 8 pump shots over the crony with 17.6gr Normas, 688fps, I was not imagining higher FPS LOL
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/gallery/17377-190425102010.jpeg)
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Higher than the mk ii or higher since moding the stock [chuckling]?
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I have an Artimis lr700 .22 new with no modifications .
620 @ 8 pumps, crosman 14.3 pellets.
I think it’s the same as the dragonfly1.
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Yes they are the same. Mine had a loose pump adjustment that I had to tighten to the proper specs out of the box, never did and valve or hammer spring mods.
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BR
Is this rifle a DF 1 or 2, caliber 17 or 22?
Since I have all of the air holes that are .134" thru .136",
but the breech/action hole which is .124".
I think that I'll open It up to .136", and see the results,
as that will give me a good base line to work from.
Here is some of the DF II tests for comparison,
Summary of some of the tests,
the "F" thru H-1 tests are the DF II 22 cal tests,
F & G tests were with tp holes at .145"
H & H1 tests were with TP holes at .156"
The "A" test is for the DF I- 22 cal, OEM STOCK.
Test F G H H-1 "A"
1 pump = 269--262--252-236 1. 293.9
2 pumps= 393--377--305-367 2. 396.8
3 pumps= 452--390--383-449 3. 446.1
4 pumps= 479--436--416-495 4. 475.7
5 pumps= 538--488--449-511 5. 511.8
6 pumps= 623--498--524-574 6. 531.4
7 pumps= 646--639--567-597 7. 541.3
8 pumps= 652--754--600-613 8. 561.0
9 pumps= 708--810--633-757* 9. 567.5
10 pumps=728--833--690-813*10. 561.0
The asterisk is the level I am working towards at 10 pumps.
Your thoughts or suggestions......
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Never had the DF I but I did own the DF II for awhile.
A couple things I didn't like about the gun...
The edges of the wood pump handle were sharp and hard on my hand to pump. But I quickly learned that the pump arm does not need to be completely closed between strokes. That helped.
The other thing was that I was always nervous that I would bend that butterfly linkage. Just seemed to me that it needed to be beefier.
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Don it is a DF1 .22 17.6 gr Norma pellets.
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OK Guys
Here is the 2nd test,
I opened the Breech/action tp hole to .140", The OEM hole was .124"
I could not find my .136" reamer, but it's in the shop some where...
"B" Test
Crosman 14.3gr pellets used for all tests:
1. No reading, no air retained during pump??
2. 282 fps/86 mps
3. 341 fps/104 mps
4. 433 fps/132 mps
5. 449 fps/137 mps
6. 492 fps/150 mps
7. 528 fps/161 mps
8. 557 fps/170 mps
9. 561 fps/171 mps
10. 531 fps/162 mps
11. 587 fps/179 mps
12. 590 fps/180 mps
13. 600 fps/183 mps
14. 587 fps/179 mps
15. FPS were lower than the 14 pump test
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"A" Test, OEM stock
1. 293.9 fps/89.6 mps
2. 396.8 fps/121 mps
3. 446.1 fps/136 mps
4. 475.7 fps/145 mps
5. 511.8 fps/156 mps
6. 531.4 fps/162 mps
7. 541.3 fps/165 mps
8. 561.0 fps/171 mps
9. 567.5 fps/173 mps
10. 561.0fps/171 mps
11. FPS were lower than the 10 pump test,
No retained air from pumps.
No air leaks.
I don't know what is going on,
I had 1 pump results before and gained nothing over the 10 pumps on the "A" test,
Your thoughts and suggestions....
Tia
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BR
Thanks for the info, I didn't relies Norma pellets were that weight,
as I don't have any in my pellet data base.
Tia
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I disassembled my LR700 today and checked some things and made a few sketches to machine parts.
I am going to drill the transfer path to .170 and valve throat to .196
Undercut the valve stem to.080
There is a counterbore at the air inlet valve hole. Going to plug that and drill.062 hole to reduce headspace.
I measured the valve internal volume at 2.8 cc. I will turn an eighth inch off the threads and chamfer to bump that up to 3.2 cc.
The pump rod is a mess with the rubber donut. Going to press a new piece on the shaft to eliminate that.
The upper section of the pump rod where the link connects is made of plastic on mine so a brass one will replace it.
I see the barrel orings. One of them looks damaged. It came with a couple spares but a source for them would be nice.
We will see but maybe 750 to 800 could be done at 8 pumps.
Good luck on your project .
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PSI Pumper
If you can give me the size of O rings you need, I probably have them, and will send them to you, no payback needed. You have helped me several times. I do have the O rings for the DFY II valves.
This is were I get my O rings, once I figure out the size.
Found the DF II barrel O ring here.
https://www.theoringstore.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=368_12
Tia,
Don
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PSI
If I can ask a question, How do plug a hole in the valve"
I have been using the set screw method, then drill/ream the correct hole as needed.
Tia,
Don
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PSI
If I can ask a question, How do plug a hole in the valve"
I have been using the set screw method, then drill/ream the correct hole as needed.
Tia,
Don
Lathe turn a piece of aluminum to .1625 diameter an eighth of an inch long. Drill a .062 hole through it and press it into the valve. You don’t want to have to use excessive pressure pressing it in so the first 1/16 could be .161 diameter.
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Could you also add a drop of thread locker?
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Well,
I found the problem, I tried the rubber glove and rubber band trick,
I found out that there was air leaking past the poppet, even with the tapered poppet end...
So, I remove the valve and lapped it in, button every thing buttoned up and got these results: (it holds air now).
I opened the Breech/action tp hole to .140", The OEM hole was .124"
I could not find my .136" reamer, it's in the shop some where...
Removed the front crushed bb screen in the inlet hole of the valve.
I need to find 81 fps+ = 10 pump test for 700+ fps average,
and I'll be Plumb Happy with this DF I, 22 cal.
Maybe open all air holes to .140"....?
Your thoughts and suggestions..... :-\
Tia
"C" Test
Crosman 14.3gr pellets used for all tests:
1. 291 fps/88 mps
2. 367 fps/112 mps
3. 433 fps/132 mps
4. 479 fps/146 mps
5. 521 fps/159 mps
6. 551 fps/168 mps
7. 574 fps/175 mps
8. 593 fps/181 mps
9. 606 fps/185 mps
10. 616 fps/188 mps
11. 629 fps/192 mps
12. 643 fps/196 mps
13. 646 fps/197 mps
14. 659 fps/201 mps
15. 666 fps/203 mps
16. 682 fps/209 mps
17. 688 fps/210 mps
18. FPS were lower than the 17 pump test
"B" Test = (same as above)
Crosman 14.3gr pellets used for all tests:
1. No reading, no air retained during pump??
2. 282 fps/86 mps
3. 341 fps/104 mps
4. 433 fps/132 mps
5. 449 fps/137 mps
6. 492 fps/150 mps
7. 528 fps/161 mps
8. 557 fps/170 mps
9. 561 fps/171 mps
10. 531 fps/162 mps
11. 587 fps/179 mps
12. 590 fps/180 mps
13. 600 fps/183 mps
14. 587 fps/179 mps
15. FPS were lower than the 14 pump test
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Could you also add a drop of thread locker?
Yes , thread locker helps with a light press fit.
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A small step forward...?
Opened the Breech/action tp hole to .140", The OEM hole was .124"
Removed the front crushed bb screen in the inlet hole of the valve.
The only change on "D" test was the TP Hole opened to .140"....
was .136" OEM, all other are passage ways are OEM .134" to .136"
"D" Test
Crosman 14.3gr pellets used for all tests:
1. 262 fps/80 mps
2. 379 fps/115 mps
3. 439 fps/134 mps
4. 488 fps/149 mps
5. 524 fps/160 mps
6. 554 fps/169 mps
7. 580 fps/177 mps
8. 593 fps/181 mps
9. 613 fps/187 mps
10. 629 fps/192 mps
11. 643 fps/196 mps
12. 646 fps/197 mps
13. 662 fps/202 mps
14. All pump tests were lower than the 13 pump test
"C" Test
Crosman 14.3gr pellets used for all tests:
1. 291 fps/88 mps
2. 367 fps/112 mps
3. 433 fps/132 mps
4. 479 fps/146 mps
5. 521 fps/159 mps
6. 551 fps/168 mps
7. 574 fps/175 mps
8. 593 fps/181 mps
9. 606 fps/185 mps
10. 616 fps/188 mps
11. 629 fps/192 mps
12. 643 fps/196 mps
13. 646 fps/197 mps
14. 659 fps/201 mps
15. 666 fps/203 mps
16. 682 fps/209 mps
17. 688 fps/210 mps
18. FPS were lower than the 17 pump test
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That's nearly identical to the performance of my Crosman 1400's. I don't push them past 10 pumps so I don't know what the upper end would look like. Honestly, I expected more from that gun. I thought it would be good for 17 or 18 FPE.
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Looks like it flattens out on fps after 10 pumps. Could have something to do with the rubber donut in the pump rod or excess headspace. I would recommend removing the oring from the pump piston and checking/adjusting the pump rod length so the piston touches the valve.
I have also determined the bolt probe is blocking the transfer port .
Photo is modified pump rod to delete rubber piece. I made it slightly different from the print to leave a place to add a felt wiper of some sort.
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The only change on "E" test was the TP Hole opened to .150"....
was .136" OEM, all other are passage ways are OEM .134" to .136"
"E" Test
Crosman 14.3gr pellets used for all tests:
1. 269 fps/82 mps
2. 374 fps/114 mps
3. 443 fps/135 mps
4. 492 fps/150 mps
5. 531 fps/162 mps
6. 557 fps/170 mps
7. 587 fps/179 mps
8. 600 fps/183 mps
9. 620 fps/189 mps
10. 643 fps/196 mps
11. 656 fps/200 mps
12. 666 fps/203 mps
13. 679 fps/207 mps
14. 695 fps/212 mps
15. 698 fps/213 mps
16. 702 fps/214 mps
17. 715 fps/218 mps
18. 721 fps/220 mps
All pump tests were lower than the 18 pump test,
I went to 20 pumps, could not handle any more pumps.
I am tired......
"C" "D" DIF* "E" Dif**
1. 291 262 -29 269 +07
2. 367 379 +12 374 +12
3. 433 439 +06 443 +04
4. 479 488 +09 492 +09
5. 521 524 +03 531 +06
6. 551 554 +03 557 +03
7. 574 580 +06 587 +07
8. 593 593 00 600 +07
9. 606 613 +07 620 +07
10. 616 629 +27 643 +14
11. 629 643 +14 656 +13
12. 643 646 +03 666 +20
13. 659 662 +03 679 +17
14. 666 ------------695 000
15. 682-------------698 000
16. 688 ------------702 000
17. -----------------715 000
18. -----------------721 000
The Dif *column is the difference between C & D for the .140" TP Hole change,
the Dif **column is the difference between D & E for the .150" TP Hole change =
A whole lot of Pumping.........I am beginning to wonder if it is worth it...
Your thoughts and suggestions.....
Tia
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PSI Pumper
Thank you for that information on the bolt probe, I'll check it asap,
Did you cut off and shorten the nose and install a new longer probe to make up the difference?
When I first checked out the pump rod, the adjustment nut was loose by a couple of turns,
I pulled the "O" ring and adjusted the overall length, with .025" - .030" clearance and locked it down.
Unknown what the OEM setting was??
Your thoughts and suggestions..
Tia
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BPS
Thanks for the information,
I decided to go with the max pumps, until there was "NO GAIN", just to know the information.
On this rifle, I'll probably stop at 10-12 pumps max, this rifle is killing my shoulders,
pumping.
I'll play with removing that rubber ball.....LOL
I have never shot a 1400, all I have had is Sheridan's (4). But ammo is hard to find,
but I can reform Crosman's Pointed 22 to 20, so I am happy.
Tia
"That's nearly identical to the performance of my Crosman 1400's. I don't push them past 10 pumps so I don't know what the upper end would look like. Honestly, I expected more from that gun. I thought it would be good for 17 or 18 FPE."
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PSI Pumper
Thank you for that information on the bolt probe, I'll check it asap,
Did you cut off and shorten the nose and install a new longer probe to make up the difference?
When I first checked out the pump rod, the adjustment nut was loose by a couple of turns,
I pulled the "O" ring and adjusted the overall length, with .025" - .030" clearance and locked it down.
Unknown what the OEM setting was??
Your thoughts and suggestions..
Tia
I did not remove any length.
The photo shows where I turned it down.
Before turning it, I colored the bolt with a black sharpie. Assembled the barrel in the breech. Then scribed the bolt through the transfer port to know how far to turn it back.
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PSI Pumper
Thank you for that information, I'll check that bolt nose, tonight.
Which model do you have
DF 1 or DF 2?
Since I both, I'll end doing both, if needed.
Tia,
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Nvreloader
I have an Artemis LR700. I purchased it new in November 2024.
It is a clone of the DF 1.
Is yours badged “Dragonfly”?
They have been out of production a while. There may be some new design and features added since?
Mine has a threaded barrel and an included moderator.
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PSI Pumper
Both of mine are Badged Dragon Fly 1 & 2.
The DF 1 has been out of production, since the introduction of the DF 2,
and have threaded bbl, but no moderator.
Where can I find this Artemis LR 700, does this LR 700 have the Butterfly pumping system?
Can you buy parts for it?
I would love to find the longer bbl for the DF 1, as there is almost a 2" difference,
which means a loss of 20-30 fps, as compared to the DF 2 barrel length.
Tia
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PSI Pumper
Here is what I found by removing the obstruction of the bolt nose, a slight change....lol
Thanks
The only change on "F" test was , I removed about .062" of obstruction from the bolt nose,
over the TP hole from the valve, no other changes were made.
"F" Test
Crosman 14.3gr pellets used for all tests:
1. 265 fps/81 mps
2. 374 fps/114 mps
3. 443 fps/135 mps
4. 462 fps/141 mps
5. 531 fps/162 mps
6. 561 fps/171 mps
7. 587 fps/179 mps
8. 600 fps/183 mps
9. 620 fps/189 mps
10. 639 fps/195 mps
"E" Test
Crosman 14.3gr pellets used for all tests:
1. 269 fps/82 mps
2. 374 fps/114 mps
3. 443 fps/135 mps
4. 492 fps/150 mps
5. 531 fps/162 mps
6. 557 fps/170 mps
7. 587 fps/179 mps
8. 600 fps/183 mps
9. 620 fps/189 mps
10. 643 fps/196 mps
I would bet that I could gain another 20-40 fps if I had the longer DF 2 barrel
on the DF 1 rifle....2" makes a difference ?? lol
The thoughts and or suggestions from the Look'y Lou's...
Tia
-
Artemis LR 700 has the conventional pump mechanism like the DF1.
The place I bought it from no longer has it listed on the site. Knivesdist.com
Being discontinued ? I don’t know.
The barrel is 22.375” long.
Does the front end of yours look like this?
-
PSI Pumper
Yes, that is the same as the DF 2 model, and has the same threaded bbl.
The bbl length is approximately 23-1/4" long for the DF 2.
The bbl length on my DF 1 is 21-3/4" long, IMHO that is why the DF 1
doesn't have the same fps ballistics as the DF 2, it's 2" shorter.
Tia
-
Psi Pumper
My front sight length that fits over the bbl/pressor tube is 5.100" long,
with approximately 1/2" of threaded muzzle past the front sight base .
There is a threaded ring/nut that holds the front sight on the bbl,
and 2 small screws are that tapped/drilled into the end of the pressure tube cap,
to also hold the front sight in place..
Yours appears to b 4.900" long with a 5/8" threaded muzzle extension.
The rear end of the front sight is about 1" past the end of the pressure tube.
Tia,
-
2 inches makes a significant difference, but more importantly you would gain the threads for sound protection!
-
SB
That is what I was thinking,
I am looking for Parts Gun, or bbl off a DF II - 22 cal, Storm Rider or any bbl
that is at least 23" long, then I'll put the DF 2 bbl on the DF 1 and do some more tests...LOL
I went back thru the DF 2 tests (now that I have found it ...lol),
and I'll apply best tests to the DF 1, and I have removed that rubber donut,
and made a Delron spacer to replace the rubber donut,
so far there is no change in the fps section, BUT IT IS EASIER to PUMP now. :o 8)
I have about .025" to .030" of headspace between the pump head and the valve face,
and I am max's out in the headspace Dept.
So it's down to the air passage ways for the most power gain,
I would like 700+ fps at 10 pumps, that'd my goal...lol, but will accept anything over
700fps.
Thoughts or suggestions.... glady accepted....
Tia
-
Are you able to measure the df I pumping force with the delrin mod and post the numbers? That mod could be very significant for some members who struggle with or dislike the heavy pumping of the df I.
I like the heavy pumping, personally, but airguns are my workout. [chuckling]
-
SB
I'll have to figure out a way to do that, let me work on that,
I compared it to my Dan's and it is slightly harder, but there is no direct correlations
for the mechanics of the arm length and pressure tube dimensions etc.
Tia
-
Some folks put a scale on the pump arm and see where it peaks. Gives a general idea.
-
Looking through some old posts and found a modded one. Seems he was doing very well.
-
Thanks HPP
That was some info that was needed, that I can understand, Back to the work bench,
I go....lol
Tia
-
Guys
Here is some more info/results...
Slowly getting there, waiting for parts to get here...
Dragon Fly 1, 22 cal
Summary of test results/and changes made during tests,
Barrel = 21.750" long: 14.3 gr Crosman pellets used in all tests,
Changes made for each test, under the FPS section.
Pumps
"A" test "B" "C" "D" "E" "F" "G"
1. 293--No Air--291--262--269---265--
2. 396 --282----367---379--374--374--
3. 446 --341----433---439--443--443--
4. 475 --433----479---488--492--485--
5. 511 --449----521---524--531--516--
6. 531 --492----551---554--557--547--
7. 541 --598----574---580--587--570--
8. 561 --557----593---593--600--593--
9. 567 --561----606---613--620--616--
10. 561--531---616---629--643--636--
11.-------587---629---643--656---652--
12.-------590---643---646--666---669--
13.-------600---646---662--679---679--
14.-------587---659---------695---688--
15.--------------666---------698---698--
16.--------------682---------702---700--
17.--------------688---------715---------
18.---------------------------721---------
*10. Looking for 700+ fps @ 10 pumps
Changes made during any tests:
"A" test = OEM stock 22 cal rifle, changed bbl "O" rings (leaking),
14.3 gr Crosman pellets used in all tests, chrono results = fps
"B" Test =Opened the Breech/action air hole to .140", the OEM hole was .124" dia,
Poppet is leaking air pressure, changed bbl "O" rings, leaking air.
"C" Test = Fixed leaking poppet, Lapped in, Removed rubber donut,
replaced with a Delron bushing same spec's as rubber bushing, reduced pumping effort, now.
"D" test=Opened the TP (Brass) air hole only to .140", (was .134").
"E" Test=Opened the TP (Brass) air hole only to .150" (was .140").
Note: All tests above the "F" test were shot using OEM hammer/spring
"F" Test=Oem hammer weighed 882 grs with a .400" spring hole, 1.675" deep.
Opened Oem hammer spring tunnel to .420" Dia, weighs in at 837.5 grs,
Oem hammer screws holes were off by .150" from centerline of hammer axis,
rubbing on sear release contact area, back of hammer etc.
I am going to use the 11# flat wire spring, for the rest of the upcoming tests,
added DF II front sight to support bbl muzzle, pending accuracy tests,
0.10" slop around rear sight base/barrel.
"G" Test=Pending
-
Thanks, Don!
How are the arms feelings after all that pumping?
-
SB
Like wet rubber noodles in the shoulders/neck, no problems with the arms.
I am having fun ?? I think.... ;D
I am waiting for some more reamers, and a hunk of Oak wood to fit the pump arm,
I am stealing/adding Back Roads pump handle Idea, "Thanks, Back Roads",
which will work very well around here, as I am always resting the forearm on
rocks/sage brush for shooting, will save the OEM forearm from lots of abuse... ;)
Also making a long 6" piece scope base to dovetail/fit on/between the rear sight
and front section of the action, along with a 3" section the rear section,
all Dovetailed and screw attached. Then I'll have approximately 9" to mount my
normal variable scopes, as I can't see Irons any more, old tired eyes.
Note: There is a difference between the DF 1 and 2 rear sight action/spacing,
the DF 2 is shorter distance than the DF1, by 1" approximately, in the rear sight
spacing/distance, as I found out.
And I have a WILD HAIR that growing and needs scratching, this DF 1 or 2 will
become a 20/5mm caliber, or a 177 cal, or 25 cal, as I don't have any in those
calibers that are pumpers.. Yet, Except for the 4 Dan's.
More later,
Tia
-
A DF 20!?! Now that is a novel idea!
-
I just got mine reassembled. The chronograph says 784 on 8 pumps.
-
Holy Snack Bar PSI,
What are you running in that beast, Nitro??...lol
That's better than the DF 2 results,
By any chance did you record any spec's/air passage ways holes on that valve?,
it's got to be different valve than the DF 1/2 valves, and or pump head setup..
I know you do have a longer bbl, which helps.
What caliber .177?
Tia,
Don
-
Nvreloader, it is.22 . 14.3 CPHP
I will check it tomorrow and list the numbers for 1 to 10 pumps.
Transfer port is .167” throughout.
I enlarged the throat hole to .196”
The stock hole is too small so this is a bottleneck to support larger transfer ports .
So I did basically the same thing the other guy did that I posted about on page 3 and a little more.
I did install a nice oil wiper on the pump head and got rid of the rubber donut.
The pump and valve are the same as the dragonfly .
-
I have the numbers for 1 to 10 pumps:
1 277
2 433
3 521
4 588
5 651
6 702
7 746
8 784
9 821
10 825 (21.6 fpe)
Not sure why it only gained 4 fps on the 10 pumps? I think I counted right. Did not have any retained air.
Pretty happy with it like it is for power. I don’t want to stress or damage it from over pumping.
-
PSI
Very nice,
Jerkin the rug out from under me Huh...lol
Well, I'll be following along behind you,
I have my doubts about this DF 1, we'll see.....
Thanks,
Don
-
Guys
Results from "G" test,
I am going backwards, and I know this short bbl is NOT helping. :o
Summary of test results/ changes made during tests,
Barrel = 21.750" long: 14.3 gr Crosman pellets used in all tests,
Changes made for each test, under the FPS section.
Pumps
"A" test "B" "C" "D" "E" "F" "G"
1. 293--No Air--291--262--269---265--237
2. 396 --282----367---379--374--374--357
3. 446 --341----433---439--443--443--417
4. 475 --433----479---488--492--485--469
5. 511 --449----521---524--531--516--500
6. 531 --492----551---554--557--547--535
7. 541 --598----574---580--587--570--574
8. 561 --557----593---593--600--593--584
9. 567 --561----606---613--620--616--612
10. 561--531---616---629--643--636--619
11..-------587---629---643--656--652--622
12..-------590---643---646--666--669--630
No retained air left after any shot.
"G" Test=
Reamed valve throat to .191" from .170",
reamed valve exhaust exit hole to .160" from .136",
removed valve filter, valve intake hole reamed to .076",
with a long nose to fit intake hole of .076" x .200" long,
fills the intake hole from tapered end of the inside tapered valve,
has a .185" long poppet shaft at the rear of the valve,
used OEM valve spring @ 5.5#'s.
Used 11# Flat wire hammer spring.
I am checking to see if I have any leaking...
Thoughts and or suggestions...
Tia
-
Hey Guys
By any chance would anyone KNOW the correct thread size for these DF valves?
I have a couple of thread gages and they do not show/indicate the proper thread size.
The threads diameters measure on top of the points = .626" = + / - .001", outside dia,
and measures .690" +/- .001" inside dia, on the points ...
I do have tap/die for US 5/8 x 24 tpi and 5/8 x 18 tpi, fits Crosman threads?
that fit very close to the DF dimensions...
Your thoughts and suggestions.......
Tia
-
It is going to be a metric thread .
24 tpi is very close to a 1 mm pitch but not close enough to work.
What is the diameter of the male threads on the valve?
-
PSI
The male outside thread diameter is .626/7", measured across the thread tops.
The inside diameter across the thread tops is .591/2".
I have metric thread gages, but I can't get a match.....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note:
The .690" measurement in post #68 is wrong,
I did not catch the error in time and could not correct the mistake, my Bad.
Thanks,
Don
-
Nvrloader,
M16x 1 matches those dimensions.
Try rechecking the pitch with the 1.0 gauge again.
-
Thanks PSI
will do.
I want to experiment with a different type of valve seat,
and will have to machine a new top sections.
I think/know, I have some sealing problems going on with this DF 1 rifle. >:(
Thank you,
Don
-
Well guys,
I am thru messing with this DF 1 -22 cal rifle,
I had another air leak in the "G1" test, so I lapped in all the valve seats,
and did a careful check over everything, put it all back together and got these results
Summary of test results/ changes made during tests,
Barrel = 21.750" long: 14.3 gr Crosman pellets used in all tests,
Changes made for each test, under the FPS section.
Pumps
"A" test "B" "C" "D" "E" "F" "G" "G2"
1. 293--No Air--291---262--269--265--237--269
2. 396 --282----367---379--374--374--357--374
3. 446 --341----433---439--443--443--417--429
4. 475 --433----479---488--492--485--469--469
5. 511 --449----521---524--531--516--500--505
6. 531 --492----551---554--557--547--535--528
7. 541 --598----574---580--587--570--574--554
8. 561 --557----593---593--600--593--584--567
9. 567 --561----606---613--620--616--612--574
10. 561--531---616---629--643--636--619--593
11...------587---629---643--656--652--622--606
12...------590---643---646--666--669--630--613
No retained air left after any shot.
"G2" test same as G1, just lapped the valve seats,
But, I still have an air leak...... from these results
It won't get any better without a longer bb length either.
Thoughts or suggestions.......
Tia
-
Well, I got curios about the results of shooting results with a longer bbl,
pulled a bbl off the DF 2 and put it on the DF 1, both are 22 cal,
I am kind'a disappointed with the results,
but there is now a record to refer back to.
Summary of test results/ changes made during tests,
Barrel = 21.750" long: 14.3 gr Crosman pellets used in all tests,
Changes made for each test, under the FPS section.
Pumps
"A" test "B" "C" "D" "E" "F" "G" "G2" "G3
1. 293--No Air--291---262--269--265--237--269--219
2. 396 --282----367---379--374--374--357--374--347
3. 446 --341----433---439--443--443--417--429--423
4. 475 --433----479---488--492--485--469--469--472
5. 511 --449----521---524--531--516--500--505--511
6. 531 --492----551---554--557--547--535--528--538
7. 541 --598----574---580--587--570--574--554--557
8. 561 --557----593---593--600--593--584--567--570
9. 567 --561----606---613--620--616--612--574--600
10. 561--531---616---629--643--636--619--593--613
11...------587---629---643--656--652--622--606--612
12...------590---643---646--666--669--630--613--619
No retained air left after any shot.
"G3" test same as G2,
just added a 1" longer bbl from a DF 2 rifle = 22-5/8" length,
DF 1 bbl length is 21-5/8" long. Air holes were the same diameter.
Note: I am not 100% sure that the air passage ways were completely in line,
as the test results are not what, I think they should be.
Your thoughts or suggestions..........
Tia
-
Bummer about the results, but it is now in the record for the rest of us to learn from. Thank you, Don!
-
Thanks SB
I should have done it the correct way and removed the action
and made sure the air ways were lined up.
The next time I'll align the air way thru the action etc.
And I still have an air leak, somewhere?
It's either the pump head "O" rings or the valve, I'll find it sooner or later.
Tia,
Don
-
Summary of test results/ changes made during tests,
Barrel = 21.750" long: 14.3 gr Crosman pellets used in all tests,
Changes made for each test, under the FPS section.
Pumps
"A" test "B" "C" "D" "E" "F" "G" "G2" "G3 "G4"
1. 293--No Air--291---262--269--265--237--269--219---237
2. 396 --282----367---379--374--374--357--374--347---341
3. 446 --341----433---439--443--443--417--429--423---390
4. 475 --433----479---488--492--485--469--469--472---446
5. 511 --449----521---524--531--516--500--505--511---472
6. 531 --492----551---554--557--547--535--528--538---501
7. 541 --598----574---580--587--570--574--554--557---508
8. 561 --557----593---593--600--593--584--567--570---531
9. 567 --561----606---613--620--616--612--574--600---561
10. 561--531---616---629--643--636--619--593--613---574
11...------587---629---643--656--652--622--606--612---597
12...------590---643---646--666--669--630--613--619---606
No retained air left after any shot.
Here is the "B" test,
I opened the Breech/action tp hole to .140", The OEM hole was .124"
"C" Test = air leak...
"D" test =The only change on "D" test was the TP Hole opened to .140"....
was .136" OEM, all other are passage ways are OEM .134" to .136"
"E" test = The only change on "E" test was the TP Hole opened to .150"....
was .136" OEM, all other are passage ways are OEM .134" to .136"
"F" test =The only change on "F" test was ,
I removed about .062" of obstruction from the bolt nose,
partially covering the TP hole from the valve, no other changes were made.
Note: All tests above the "F" test were shot using OEM hammer/spring
"F" Test=Oem hammer weighed 882 grs with a .400" spring hole, 1.675" deep.
Opened Oem hammer spring tunnel to .420" Dia, weighs in at 837.5 grs,
Oem hammer screws holes were off by .150" from centerline of hammer axis,
rubbing on sear release contact area, back of hammer etc.
"G" test = Reamed valve throat to .191" from .170",
reamed valve exhaust exit hole to .160" from .136",
removed valve filter, valve intake hole reamed to .076",
with a long nose to fit intake hole of .076" x .200" long,
fills the intake hole from tapered end of the inside tapered valve,
has a .185" long poppet shaft at the rear of the valve,
used OEM valve spring @ 5.5#'s.
Used 11# Flat wire hammer spring.
"G1" test = Air leaking, re lapped the valve & seats, did not post test results,
"G2" test = Same as G1 test, air leaking,
"G3" test same as G2,
just added a 1" longer bbl from a DF 2 rifle = 22-5/8" length,
DF 1 bbl OEM length is 21-5/8" long. Air holes were the same diameter.
"G4" test, made new valves seats & poppets, and lapped in, NO LEAKING,
holds air overnight. Not sure what the air passage ways dimensions are,
will note when checking valve. OEM bbl,
I think I need slightly more inside air volume in the valve...
Thoughts and or suggestions........
Tia
-
Checked the valve, "H" test = changed the air intake hole diameter,
"A" test "B" "C" "D" "E" "F" "G" "G2" "G3 "G4" "H"
1. 293--No Air--291---262--269--265--237--269--219---237---252
2. 396 --282----367---379--374--374--357--374--347---341---351
3. 446 --341----433---439--443--443--417--429--423---390---419
4. 475 --433----479---488--492--485--469--469--472---446---456
5. 511 --449----521---524--531--516--500--505--511---472---498
6. 531 --492----551---554--557--547--535--528--538---501---524
7. 541 --598----574---580--587--570--574--554--557---508---541
8. 561 --557----593---593--600--593--584--567--570---531---557
9. 567 --561----606---613--620--616--612--574--600---561---587
10. 561--531---616---629--643--636--619--593--613---574---603
11...------587---629---643--656--652--622--606--612---597---623
12...------590---643---646--666--669--630--613--619---606---639
No retained air left after any shot.
H = throat = .180", exit =.161", TP = .161", valve air intake = .076",
(changed the air intake from .062" to .076"), lapped poppets/seats
11# Flat wire spring, hammer weight = 837.5 grains
Note: All tests above the "F" test were shot using OEM hammer/spring
Thoughts or suggestions...
-
"H-1" test
"A" test "B" "C" "D" "E" "F" "G" "G2" "G3 "G4" "H" "H-1"
1. 293--No Air-291--262--269--265--237--269--219--237--252--252
2. 396 --282---367--379--374--374--357--374--347--341--351--360
3. 446 --341---433--439--443--443--417--429--423--390--419--413
4. 475 --433---479--488--492--485--469--469--472--446--456--469
5. 511 --449---521--524--531--516--500--505--511--472--498--518
6. 531 --492---551--554--557--547--535--528--538--501--524--534
7. 541 --598---574--580--587--570--574--554--557--508--541--561
8. 561 --557---593--593--600--593--584--567--570--531--557--580
9. 567 --561---606--613--620--616--612--574--600--561--587--597
10.561--531---616--629--643--636--619--593--613---574--603--616
11.------587---629--643--656--652--622--606--612---597--623--619
12.------590---643--646--666--669--630--613--619---606--639--646
No retained air left after any shot.
H-1 = bbl hole = .152", valve throat = .180", valve exit =.152", TP = .161" dia,
valve air intake hole = .146" with .140" dia x .240" long nose, lapped poppets/seats,
11# Flat wire spring, Alum hammer weight = 396.0 grains
-
"H-2" test
"A" test "B" "C" "D" "E" "F" "G" "G2" "G3 "G4" "H" "H-1" "H-2"
1. 293--No Air-291--262--269--265--237--269--219--237--252--252---259
2. 396 --282---367--379--374--374--357--374--347--341--351--360---364
3. 446 --341---433--439--443--443--417--429--423--390--419--413---429
4. 475 --433---479--488--492--485--469--469--472--446--456--469---476
5. 511 --449---521--524--531--516--500--505--511--472--498--518---500
6. 531 --492---551--554--557--547--535--528--538--501--524--534---539
7. 541 --598---574--580--587--570--574--554--557--508--541--561---564
8. 561 --557---593--593--600--593--584--567--570--531--557--580---603
9. 567 --561---606--613--620--616--612--574--600--561--587--597---613
10.561--531---616--629--643--636--619--593--613--574--603--616---636
11.------587---629--643--656--652--622--606--612--597--623--619---646
12.------590---643--646--666--669--630--613--619--606--639--646---659
No retained air left after any shot.
H-1 = bbl hole = .152", valve throat = .180", valve exit =.152", TP = .161" dia,
valve air intake hole = .146" with .140" dia x .240" long nose, lapped poppets/seats,
11# Flat wire spring, Alum hammer weight = 396.0 grains
H-2 test = bbl hole = .164", valve throat = .180", valve exit =.164", TP = .162" dia,
valve air intake hole = .076", .340" long poppet shaft, (OEM shaft length .240" long)=
Hammer hitting back of valve, lapped poppets/seats, 11# Flat wire spring,
Alum hammer weight = 396.0 grains, 14 gr Crosman pellets used for all tests.
-
Looks good stick a fork in it ;)
-
Thanks
BR
I have been testing and checking out most of the combo's of valve options,
I have 5 different valves, (all DF types) and just today, found a major problem,
I have over .100" of total overall valve lengths, within these 5 valves.
With the .030+" of pressure compression, (built in headspace), when pumping,
and then adding the length differences, of almost .080"+ of headspace,
no wonder I was getting such a variance in the power readings,
with the variance in headspace totals.
I am checking some other items, more later.
Tia,