GTA
Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 and springers ,rams => Optics, Range estimation & related subjects => Topic started by: PaulFWI on October 21, 2024, 08:15:47 PM
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I may be crazy, but I've realized that I like my "cheap" Hawke Vantage as much more more than the considerably more expensive Airmax and Frontiers.
I have a 2-7x32 Vantage on my FX Crown, an Airmax 30 SF Compact 6-24x50 on my M3 Impact, and a Frontier 30 FFP 4-20x50 on a Tikka .17 HMR rimfire rifle.
Within the max mag range of the Vantage, the more expensive scopes don't look any better to me, optics-wise.
And that is the range I almost always use for hunting. I hunt rabbits and squirrels out to 60Y with the airguns and very rarely need or want more than 7-8x. (When trying to see if a 50Y bump is a flattened squirrel, maybe I'll turn it up. That's rare.)
The .17HMR is capable of much longer shots by virtue of being .5" flat out to 125Y; maybe the higher power will prove itself there. (Yes, I have had 100Y shots on late-season squirrels.)
But here's the big thing: I love the simple duplex reticle on the Vantage. I am old-school and just shoot within the range my gun is reasonably flat, because outside of that range usually wind/accuracy are the deciding factor anyway. And you can't get that nice, clean, simple reticle on the more expensive scopes!
Am I missing something? Sure, if I A/B'd the optics, I'd probably note a difference. But I think it's small.
I think that $130 Vantage is a complete steal. Oh, BTW, it's super light (12.8oz) also.
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I don't own any of the higher end Hawke models, but I do have a Vantage, and I am a fan of it! The lightweight is one of its great feature. It has been mounted on my Urban, and I am still quite happy with the pairing.
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I have a 2-10X Vantage on the R1.
Excellent scope.
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I like the Vantage line. I have three 2-7 Vantage non AO 30-30 reticle. They're on a 223, 243, and 7mm-08. I have a 3-9 non AO 30-30 reticle on a 17hmr. I have a non AO 4x Vantage mildot reticle on my 177 Hw50. My wife has a Vantage IR 2-7 AO on her Hw30. I have a Vantage 3-9x40 AO shop mule that's been on dozens of springers including a few R1s..
Airmax.
I have a 2-7 Airmax on my hw30. I have five 3-9 Airmax on my 2 Hw95s, R9, Hw98 and my R1. I have a 4-12 Airmax on my Hw97.
Oh i forgot my wife's CZ has a Vantage 3-9x40 AO too.
The Vantage scopes are high value scope in my opinion.
BTW yesterday DVOR had the Vantage 3-9x40 AO on sale for $100. That's a darn good deal if you ask me.
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Seems we all agree the Vantage are great.
Is it possible the more expensive scopes hold zero better? Or have some other advantage I'm not thinking of? I honestly don't know.
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Seems we all agree the Vantage are great.
Is it possible the more expensive scopes hold zero better? Or have some other advantage I'm not thinking of? I honestly don't know.
I recall members mentioning that the Vantage line aren't spring gun rated. A lot of times, glass is what really shoots up the price on scopes.
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Seems we all agree the Vantage are great.
Is it possible the more expensive scopes hold zero better? Or have some other advantage I'm not thinking of? I honestly don't know.
I recall members mentioning that the Vantage line aren't spring gun rated. A lot of times, glass is what really shoots up the price on scopes.
If that's a difference it's not one that Hawke touts or even mentions anywhere that I can find.
One time Pyramyd Air told me that all the scopes they sell, which includes that line, are spring-rated.
Also, I think the (vast) majority of those using the Airmax & Sidewinder lines are using them on PCPs. (Frontier seems to be intended more for firearms.)
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Seems we all agree the Vantage are great.
Is it possible the more expensive scopes hold zero better? Or have some other advantage I'm not thinking of? I honestly don't know.
I recall members mentioning that the Vantage line aren't spring gun rated. A lot of times, glass is what really shoots up the price on scopes.
If that's a difference it's not one that Hawke touts or even mentions anywhere that I can find.
One time Pyramyd Air told me that all the scopes they sell, which includes that line, are spring-rated.
Also, I think the (vast) majority of those using the Airmax & Sidewinder lines are using them on PCPs. (Frontier seems to be intended more for firearms.)
I don't have a definite answer. As I stated, it was something I heard mentioned by some members. In any case, it's a non-issue for me.
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Seems we all agree the Vantage are great.
Is it possible the more expensive scopes hold zero better? Or have some other advantage I'm not thinking of? I honestly don't know.
I recall members mentioning that the Vantage line aren't spring gun rated. A lot of times, glass is what really shoots up the price on scopes.
The glass is noticeably better on the Airmax scopes than the Vantage. The Vantage scope glass is very good for the price. Its why I have them on several powder burners. The glass on the regular Vantage line is better than the Vantage SF and IR line. They skimped on the glass for the extra whistles and bells.
Hawke will tell you the Vantage line is good for upto 12fpe springers. Over that they tell you to use an Airmax. I will tell you I have a 3-9x40 Vantage AO that i use as a shop mule. I can't kill that thing. It's been on a 23 fpe RX1, a few R1s and over a dozen other springers. Important to note all the guns had droop corrected. Droop kills as many scopes as springs.
The Airmax gives you a finer glass etched christmas tree reticle that's better for target and long distance work. The thicker easier to see Vantage reticle is better for general short range use and hunting areas with dark busy backgrounds.
Oh and the turrets are better on Vantage than the Airmax. The Airmax are inconsistent and are often mushy and inaudible. Not a big deal if you don't often make adjustments or do so in quiet environments. The Vantage turrets are consistently pretty tactile.
The Airmax are as close to springer indestructible as you get. If you mess one up. The gun probably has barrel droop.
That's my synopsis of the Vantage and Airmax lines. I have and had other brand rifle scopes of higher and lower tiers so I do have something to compare the Hawkes with. Generally they're a high value product.
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Excellent summary(based on hands on experience), Ron!
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Yes, that's a good summary.
I can't tell the diff in glass, offhand. I don't use those silly IR reticles. And I like the thick reticles better overall. And I don't have springers (save an R7 I'll be buried with).
I spent too much!
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Important to note all the guns had droop corrected. Droop kills as many scopes as springs.
I didn't follow your meaning here. Why is that? Are you saying that having a scope at the limits of its (vertical?) adjustment is bad for it?
Thanks.
P.S. About to buy a Tikka Lite in .243 for the family and will probably put a Vantage scope on it.
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Following...........
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Important to note all the guns had droop corrected. Droop kills as many scopes as springs.
I didn't follow your meaning here. Why is that? Are you saying that having a scope at the limits of its (vertical?) adjustment is bad for it?
Yes. Absolutely having the scope adjust at its limits is never good. Having it close to the upper elevation limit is the worst. The reticle is held in the erector tube within the scope body. That tube is what the turrets move around. Both turrets push against a tension spring at the 7:30 clock position (or lower left). With the elevation near maxed out that spring becomes fully extended and doesn't have enough tension to hold the reticle steady and the scope loses zero. In some cases the erector tube rubs on the roof of the scope body and aluminum dust is created that can be seen inside the scope.
Proper scope mounting is critical to longevity. A new scope should never need more than a turn and a half in any direction to zero. Ideally less than a turn. Scoping a rifle properly is more complicated than most people know. When it's done right you'll have few problems with decent scopes.
Also good choice on the Tikka, great guns and a great caliber.
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Seems we all agree the Vantage are great.
Is it possible the more expensive scopes hold zero better? Or have some other advantage I'm not thinking of? I honestly don't know.
I recall members mentioning that the Vantage line aren't spring gun rated. A lot of times, glass is what really shoots up the price on scopes.
This is correct. Hawke only reccommends the Vantage line for springers 12fpe and under. All my air guns are springers and they all wear Hawke scopes. Most have Airmax and a couple sub 12fpe models have Vantage. My shop mule Vantage has been on 20+fpe piston guns and still kicking. Ymmv. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a Vantage for a 15 fpe springer if it's mounted correctly to match the barrel angle.
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Yes. Absolutely having the scope adjust at its limits is never good. Having it close to the upper elevation limit is the worst. The reticle is held in the erector tube within the scope body. That tube is what the turrets move around. Both turrets push against a tension spring at the 7:30 clock position (or lower left). With the elevation near maxed out that spring becomes fully extended and doesn't have enough tension to hold the reticle steady and the scope loses zero. In some cases the erector tube rubs on the roof of the scope body and aluminum dust is created that can be seen inside the scope.
Thank you. I'd never heard this.
I have a Hawke Frontier, one of my most expensive scopes, on a Tikka .17HMR and the elevation is at the min.
I will have to do something about that.
Also good choice on the Tikka, great guns and a great caliber.
Yeah, they're great. I have one in .17 HMR and one in .243 which i'm hunting in WI with right now. The T3x is only 6.6lb in .243. Both are tack-drivers.
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Yes. Absolutely having the scope adjust at its limits is never good. Having it close to the upper elevation limit is the worst. The reticle is held in the erector tube within the scope body. That tube is what the turrets move around. Both turrets push against a tension spring at the 7:30 clock position (or lower left). With the elevation near maxed out that spring becomes fully extended and doesn't have enough tension to hold the reticle steady and the scope loses zero. In some cases the erector tube rubs on the roof of the scope body and aluminum dust is created that can be seen inside the scope.
Thank you. I'd never heard this.
I have a Hawke Frontier, one of my most expensive scopes, on a Tikka .17HMR and the elevation is at the min.
I will have to do something about that.
Also good choice on the Tikka, great guns and a great caliber.
Yeah, they're great. I have one in .17 HMR and one in .243 which i'm hunting in WI with right now. The T3x is only 6.6lb in .243. Both are tack-drivers.
We have six Tikkas in the house and everyone is a tackdriver
Onto air guns. I wouldn't worry about the minimum elevation as much as maximum elevation. Especially in such a low recoil application.
Here's a simple diagram to show what I tried to explain earlier.
Good luck with your hunt. I'm on my way out the door in a few minutes myself.
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I was thinking that. At min, the spring is compressed, not extended. Should be Ok.
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I never even knew all these anatomical of a rifle scope. More great info, Ron!
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I never even knew all these anatomical of a rifle scope. More great info, Ron!
Don't you X-ray everything?
???
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I never even knew all these anatomical of a rifle scope. More great info, Ron!
Don't you X-ray everything?
???
Everything human, yes.
Although, I once xrayed a see turtle.
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DO any of you use or prefer illuminated reticles?
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DO any of you use or prefer illuminated reticles?
For hunting, yes! Otherwise, I don't care for the extra weight!
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I hate both illuminated and fine-line reticle. Or fancy MOA stuff for that matter. Give me a duplex and I'll kill whatever needs killing.
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i bought a Hawke Vantage 2x7 AO scope about 5 years ago and it looked great. I sighted it in at 30 yards at 7x on a rimfire with no problems. Then I shot another group at 4x. The POI shifted about 5/8in to the right. I turned it back to 7x and the POI moved back to center. I had heard a lot of good things about Hawke, so I just assumed I got a lemon. I sent it back and got a replacement. Before I mounted this one the rifle I put the mounts in a vice, picked out a target and sighted on an object at 7x, then began to change the power setting down to 2 and you could literally watch the crosshairs move to the right and down abut 5/8 in. Could have been both the original scope and the replacement were miss assembled by the same workman, who knows. I ordered a Leupold EFR 3X9 and it was perfect at all power settings.
I do own two different model Hawke Airmax scopes and neither had any problems, but I now stay away from the Vantage line. I also now do this test on all my new scopes, but have not had this problem with other brands.
As to drooper mounts on air rifles, I have used Sports Match, and some other off brands, and they do work, but limit you in how you can mount them, and what scope you can use. I have been switching to Burris Signature mounts with the plastic inserts and have really been impressed with them. With the plastic inserts you can compensate for quite a bit of droop, or you can use them to create added up angle for long range shooting. I optically zero my scopes, mount them in the Burris 0 rings to see if and how much droop is present. Then you can use +5, +10, or -5, -10 rings to get the scope as close to center as possible, then you should have plenty of elevation knob to fine adjust to perfect center without ever coming close to the upper end of elevation adjustment. You can also use the rings to correct for windage issues, though none of mine have ever needed it. The first time I used the rings the setup seemed a little tedious, but after getting it right once the others were setup pretty quickly.
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What mechanism can cause a scope to shift POI based on mag setting?
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Pretty sure it has to do with the alignment of all the lenses and crosshair. If everything isn't absolutely perfectly lined up, then when the power setting ring is turned it throws the image/reticle alignment out of whack. Some companies do extensive QC checks, and some just trust it will all work out. As I stated before I have two Hawke Airmax scopes with no problems, and one of Hawke's crossbow scopes, that my only complaint is that it is big and heavy but works fine. I'm sure there are many scopes out there that have this problem, but owners don't know to test the POI on both lowest and highest powers to check for shift. There are some who won't buy multi-power scopes because of the added complexity and potential for issues like this.
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I too am a fan of the cheaper Hawke scopes, but I do lean toward the Airmax line. I have a couple of Vantage and several Airmax and they all work fine. Unfortunately, I thought I would buy a higher quality Hawke, so I sold a Vantage 2-7X, (great scope) and an AM 4-16X and bought a Sidewinder 6.5-20X, worst scope I've ever had. The eye box was horrible, made it like looking through a fish bowl. So, not to be deterred, I bought a Frontier, can't remember now which one, and it was ok, not great like you would imagine, but ok. Well, long story short, I'm back to using the Vantage and Airmax scopes without a single complaint.
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Glad I'm not alone in this experience/opinion.
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UPDATE:
Not to be discouraged by a bad experience, I bought a Frontier 4-20x44 one inch tube scope and it is a gem. Very, very clear, no CA or distortion of any kind. It's a great scope. I had an Athlon Midas Tac 4-16x and it was the gold standard of scopes for me. So clear, it was amazing but no illuminated reticle, so I had to find another optic for evening shooting. Anyway the Frontier is very close to the Athlon, I'd have to have them side by side to pick a winner, and the Hawke has a lighted reticle.