GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: JungleShooter on May 12, 2024, 06:41:23 PM
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Seriously:
💢 Talk me into KEEPING a .25cal PCP!
What does .25cal do that .22cal can't?
I wanted a gun that trashes the feral pigeons in a spectacular manner.
But no hollow point or slug I have tried even at 60+ FPE could accomplish that.
So, now I have a .25cal P2 Prophet II Compact Performance
with 500mm RPB [slug] barrel
and I wonder what I should use this gun for....
➠ ❓ What does my .25cal do that my .22cal P1
Prophet I Compact Performance
with 400mm CZ barrel
does not...?
Help me out am I missing something?
Maybe I AM missing something because I have noted a lot of airgunners that buy
compact .25cal PCPs.
➊
Pigeons out to 100y:
Both P1 and P2 shoot with precision, and they shoot slugs. Dead is dead.
➋
Bigger game:
In Peru we don't get to shoot much bigger game than ducks, hares, and vizcachas:
Both P1 and P2 would kill them fine. Dead is dead.
➌
Long range shooting say 200y:
The P1 will do OK out to 100y.
On my first try the P2 did a pretty good group with ATP Smooth slugs.
But the 500 compact barrel seems a limitation....
➍
Better BC:
What surprised me is that .25cal pellets usually don't have a better BC than .22cal pellets (the .25 Heavy dome at 33.95gr being the exception).
So, no big advantage there....
➎
What am I forgetting? 🤔
❓ What does my .25cal do that my .22cal does not...?
Thanks, 😊
Matthias
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WACK That's what a .25 does !!! .....Franky
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If you are thinking you might have sellers remorse, get a probe, mag and barrel in .25 for the P1 before selling the P2.
Ive had .25s but dont now. My 22s do everything I want.
Good luck in your decision!
Dave
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.25 pellets are durable and easy to load
Easier to cast .25 than .22
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More expense for basically the same result.
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A bigger hole!
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Those .22, 25G, JSB Ultra Shocks leave really big holes & carry plenty of weight to dump energy into prey.
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Those JSB MKII 33.95gr blew open a couple of squirrels at 75 yards the last time I used my .25 cal. tuned to 55 FPE. It was kinda grewsome and shocking to see. I use my .25 or .30 cal for more retained energy at the longer ranges. My .22 wasn't doing the trick is how got into the larger calibers. This because my .22 is best tuned for the 18.3gr.
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I have an AV Avenger and a Hatsan 1KV break barrel in .25.
I cast 250 27 HF pellets and the AV loves them... the 1KV, not so much. It likes 24 - 25 gr production pellets.
I don't hunt but I do pest fur and feather.
I am strongly considering selling the 1KV mainly due to the cost of the ammo it likes. If the AV didn't shoot my cast pellets accurately like it does I would sell that gun along with the mold.
I get my lead free from a buddy that owns a tire shop.
On the other hand.. not much puts a school boy smile on my face like the sound of a 27gr hunk of lead smacking a steel target at 40+ fpe.
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I've been a bit surprised that my P35-22 drops squirrels as well as my P35-25. They used to be tuned to the same fpe, about 32. The 22 would penetrate deeper but the 25 made a bigger hole. Both normally shoot through a squirrel. More recently I put a power plenum on the 25 and retuned it to about 50 fpe. I have not shot any animal with it since. But if I see an adult raccoon it is the gun I would reach for. I killed a little one with the 22 but I am more confident that the greater power and penetration of the 25. I suspect a wider hole would be more important on a larger animal.
For head shots I doubt it make a difference how big the hole is. 177 seems to work fine and drop them just as quickly on brain shots. Body shots seem to take a few second longer to drop them with a 177. I think you can have success with a high power 22 on some pretty large animals if you restrict yourself to well positioned brain shots.
My P35-22 cannot reasonably reach 50 fpe or more, even with a larger plenum. It's regulator has to be about 135 bar to get to 32 fpe. The hammer spring won't open the valve past 150 bar. Might not make it all the way to 150 bar. My other higher power 22 is my Caiman. It makes low 30s easily with a regulator setting of 100 bar. It's favorite pellet is a 18 grain, however. I've tried 21 grain and 25 grain and accuracy was poor. I haven't tried slugs seriously yet. It did shoot one H&N slug I had on hand reasonably well but not as well as it shoots it's favorite 18 grain pellet. I'm sure there is a way to get it shooting a heavier projectile well so power would go up significantly but since I have a couple 25s I don't currently see the point. A high shot count accurate 22 shooting 18 grain pellets seems like a pretty good thing.
So I think it depends some on what guns you have and what sort of shots you want to take. For an animal up to 3 lbs or so, I don't think you need more than a ~30 fpe 22 caliber airgun for shots at 50 yards or less. But if you want to take body shots at animals bigger than this, I think a 25 caliber may be indicated. If you have a 45-55 fpe 22 you can go up some on the size of animal but if you use an expanding projectile to make a bigger hole it will significantly reduce penetration. When you get up around 10-15 lbs I would rather have a 34 grain 25 caliber pellet than a 25 grain 22 caliber pellet going faster. The wider heavier pellet will give you a wider and still quite deep hole in the critter.
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Those JSB MKII 33.95gr blew open a couple of squirrels at 75 yards the last time I used my .25 cal. tuned to 55 FPE. It was kinda grewsome and shocking to see.
Keith,
thanks for the comment. 👍🏼
I'm not sure what you found that looked gruesome and shocking because your projectile "blew open" the squirrels.
Let's compare: ● Your .25cal JSB Heavy 33.95 hit them critters with about 680fps (35FPE) that's pretty slow and low-ish in power. ➠ You got achieved a high level of destruction. ✅
➠ vs. ➠
● My .25cal JSB Heavy 33.95 hit my 26-yard pigeons with about 850fps (55FPE). ➠ Yet I just made a couple of holes into them no massive destruction like what you achieved.... ⛔
WHY is that? I'm trying to understand! 👍🏼
Matthias
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Seems like a good question. My 25 caliber squirrels were with 20 grain and 25 grain pellets but they just dropped. Nothing gruesome about it. But I have hit a bird or two on the spine squarely. Last I remember was with a 18 grain 22 caliber pellet. That tore the bird up more than I expected and made a louder sound than normal too. I've hit the spine many times but it seems like centering it makes more of a mess.
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Both work well for me when hunting but I do prefer the 25 cal pellets. For one thing the added size makes it easier for my arthritic fingers to manipulate and I also find them to just be more effective on tough critters like squirrels. Just my 2 cents :)
Jeff
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I have hit a bird or two on the spine squarely. Last I remember was with a 18 grain 22 caliber pellet. That tore the bird up more than I expected and made a louder sound than normal too. I've hit the spine many times but it seems like centering it makes more of a mess.
Jim, 😊
that is a very helpful observation. Thanks.
When you say "squarely" and "centering" do you mean a shot from behind, at exacly 6 o'clock?
Matthias
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Those JSB MKII 33.95gr blew open a couple of squirrels at 75 yards the last time I used my .25 cal. tuned to 55 FPE. It was kinda grewsome and shocking to see.
Keith,
thanks for the comment.
I'm not sure what you found that looked gruesome and shocking because your projectile "blew open" the squirrels.
Let's compare: ● Your .25cal JSB Heavy 33.95 hit them critters with about 680fps (35FPE) that's pretty slow and low-ish in power. ➠ You got achieved a high level of destruction. ✅
➠ vs. ➠
● My .25cal JSB Heavy 33.95 hit my 26-yard pigeons with about 850fps (55FPE). ➠ Yet I just made a couple of holes into them no massive destruction like what you achieved.... ⛔
WHY is that? I'm trying to understand!
Matthias
I'm not real sure. My best guess was just being gut shots. They definitely got opened up. I have not seen that before, but I was not able to do headshots on them that far out like I normally do due to the cheap scope on my Marauder. I have dispatched many at 85 yards with my .30 FX Impact, but all were headshots using 44.75gr JSBs. The JSBs just poked a hole in them.
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Thanks, Keith. 👍🏼Trying to make sense of it all everything helps.
Matthias
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my .25's shoot much longer distances and better accuracy at those distances, my Uragan shoots 33.95 gn JSB MKll's well over 160 yards accurately, I've head shot GS's at 160 yards with it, none of my .22 will do that with pellets, haven't tried slugs.....
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As much as I love .25, I find .22- especially NSA slugs in .22- really work for my needs. Someday I may buy a .22 barrel for our Lelya so it too can enjoy the same NSAs my Leshiy Classic enjoys.
OTOH, I absolutely love my dwindling pile of .25 wadcutters. I love .22 wadcutters but whatever they do a quarter-bore wadcutter does even better- especially reaching out past 35 yards.
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Thanks, Keith. 👍🏼Trying to make sense of it all everything helps.
A lighter pellet going faster has a better chance of expansion.A pure lead pellet has a better chance of expansion than a alloy pellet.Antimony&tin make a hard pellet with little chance of expansion hitting a bird
Matthias
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To me hitting the spine squarely could be from many angles but you have to put the center of the pellet on the center of the spine. When that happens, it seems to be particularly effective in messing things up (on the target).
I think the last one I shot that way was facing me. It was stupid enough to land on my pellet trap while I was shooting. I couldn't resist.
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Ummm
Maybe you are thinking to shoot extreme? Bench rest? RMAC?
Instead of whacking pigeons, you might want to look into Bench Rest and extreme. I hear there's prize money in those sports. unless you are already making money as a pest controller.
Heck, I hear they are even giving away air rifles, pellets, slugs, scopes in those events.
I think most top shooters in those sports are shooting 0.25 caliber or 0.30 caliber. (I could be wrong).
If I had a 0.25, I might look into that.
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To me hitting the spine squarely could be from many angles but you have to put the center of the pellet on the center of the spine. When that happens, it seems to be particularly effective in messing things up (on the target).
I think the last one I shot that way was facing me.
Thanks for that important clarification, Jim. 👍🏼
OTOH, I absolutely love my dwindling pile of .25 wadcutters.
I love .22 wadcutters but WHATEVER THEY DO a quarter-bore wadcutter does even better especially reaching out past 35 yards.
Yeah, I got to ask, I really do, Peter:
❓ What is is that wadcutters DO? Any details are appreciated.
If I remember right, you are making your own WC?
That is not an option to me at this point.
However, I have found two serious wadcutters:
● .22cal: JSB Ultra Shock Heavy 25.39gr (a wadcutter with a narrow, deep hole).
➠ I need to try them, though my gun will only get them up to around 800fps =38FPE.
● .25cal: Eun Jin (rebranded Seneca Dome), that has the shape of a semi-wadcutter, at a whopping 35.80gr.
My gun shoots them at 890fps =63FPE.
➠ However, shooting them into pigeons I was not impressed by their terminal performance. Nothing spectacular during impact. For sure the quarry is dead. But a lowly 25gr dome would have been able to do that.
🔶 Got any insights?
▪ Maybe a particular shot placement on pigeons?
▪ Or the difference between pigeons and the quarry that produces more spectacular kills for you?
Thanks!! 😊
Matthias
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Matthias, Ive been shooting the Ultra Shocks at 50FPE at the muzzled from my Rainstorm-I just to give you an idea. Ive also used them in my Steroided 342 with good accuracy, but not enough FPE to make them expand very much.
Youre right when you describe the Ultra Shocks as a Wadcutter with a hole in it.
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I've never shot a pigeon but my impression after killing a few birds is that it is easy to miss the vitals. I have to hit the upper part of the body to get a clean kill and even then, if they are up in a tree, they may glide down traveling a significant distance. On squirrels I can see where I need to hit them better and if I hit them across the chest I get consistent DRT results. On birds it's easy to place the shot lower than I want and even when I hit them up in the chest they are more likely to travel some distance before expiring if they are up in the air. Squirrels drop from trees, birds glide away.
Have you tried polymags or metalmags? Metalmags were the only expanding pellet to expand at all when shot from my Prod when I tested them in wet paper. Something like them or hybrid slugs that are also supposed to expand more easily than most may give you a bit more pop. You don't need a lot of penetration so that should still be fine. But nothing you do is going to eliminate the ability of a bird to glide away - except maybe a good head shot. But I've shot part of the skull off a bird and it was still looking at me - wasn't going anywhere though. I don't think they are exactly hard to kill but I have found them hard to make stop immediately. I've done it but not as often on birds as on squirrels.
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Have you tried polymags or metalmags?Metalmags were the only expanding pellet to expand at all when shot from my Prod when I tested them in wet paper. Something like them or hybrid slugs that are also supposed to expand more easily than most may give you a bit more pop.
➠ Yupp, I collected quite an arsenal of HP when I got this gun my first .25cal ever:
H&N Crow Magnum
H&N Baracuda Hunter
H&N Baracuda Hunter Extreme
JSB Polymag
JSB Hades
JSB KnockOut
But nothing you do is going to eliminate the ability of a bird to glide away - except maybe a good head shot. But I've shot part of the skull off a bird and it was still looking at me - wasn't going anywhere though. I don't think they are exactly hard to kill but I have found them hard to make stop immediately. I've done it but not as often on birds as on squirrels.
Yes, Jim, that has been my experience also. I'm pretty sure the larger caliber is helping to reduce the number of glide aways some.
➠ I'm just not sure if this advantage alone it is worth to me the extra hassles of this particular .25cal.
Lower shot count Very loud at the current 57FPE setting: I need a huge Shogun silencer, and it still makes a cracking gun shot, whereas the .22 P1 at 36FPE doesn't need a silencer.
Because of the silencer, it's loooong 😞.
Matthias
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For outdoors shooting with some wind, I definitely prefer the .25 cal.
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I traded off a .25, and immediately replaced it with 5 more within a couple years, I do not shoot them daily, but when I need a little more energy and wind bucking capability they come out to play..25 kept me from buying a .30 for many years LOL
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I traded off a .25, and immediately replaced it with 5 more within a couple years.
Thanks for the heads-up, that sounds like a serious problem I might throw myself into if I DO DECIDE to sell this .25cal..... 😱
5 (five!) more!! Wow.
.25 kept me from buying a .30 for many years LOL
Well, I have been a frugal good boy when it comes to caliber choice.
The .177 I stopped using quickly after seeing the difference to a .22.
And I first completed my collection of pretty much all available quality .22cal pellets before the same buy-one-of-each-to-try-them-out hit me with the new caliber.... However, I have not fallen quite as deep into that rabbit hole recovery is possible if I sell the .25cal soon.
🔶 The replacement for the .25 well, yeah, no more messing around after this episode: It's .35cal or bust.
Because I want the pest pigeons to bust. So, I think the Dirty Nive will be the ticket.
Because I have no trust in only .30cal for spectacular hits after my disappointment with the .25cal shooting hollow point pellets (flying ashtray types) and Hybrid slugs almost at 1000fps at short ranges....
Matthias
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I own them all .22, .25 .30, .35, .45, .50 except .177, .177 to small for my big arthritic hands to handle, why do I own all these Calibers? I got them cheap, fixer uppers, leakers, I originally was going to resell them, but I decided to keep most of them, besides I live in Texas, I can hunt just about anything here with them.... ;) 8)
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I own them all .22, .25 .30, .35, .45, .50 I live in TEXAS, I can hunt just about anything here with them.... ;) 8)
TEXAS 🤩
One of the states I could see myself moving to...!
Most of the countries of the Western world are against guns and have extremly strict laws against them. 😖
Take Germany that stupidly restricts airguns to 6 FPE (six!)! 😡
➠ So, I consider the US "the PARADISE" for gun lovers
and Texas would be "the CAPITAL of PARADISE."
Matthias
PS: I have a shread of hope that this .25cal in question might still give me a reason to not sell it. At the end of my range day I could squeeze in a few shots at 200y and they didn't look so bad.
The Altaros Smooth (49.50gr) bested the JSB Heavies (39.95gr). I need to try this again soon! Maybe this is a gun for extreme long range? 😊
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Get the .22. Plink cheap, and never worry about finding ammo. There is something to be said about the diameter of a pellet but I hunt with a .177 and its deadly.
But you could keep the .25 and get a .22 and a .30 because you are an enthusiast and hobbies never make sense financially or otherwise lol.
If you think they are free in Texas, check out Arizona. IMO thats the best pro gun state in the USA.
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Most of the countries of the Western world are against guns and have extremly strict laws against them. 😖
Disarm your population & theyre easier to control. Fortunately, our forefathers came from a country where the government used that to their advantage. God bless America! 🇺🇸
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Most of the countries of the Western world are against guns and have extremly strict laws against them. 😖
Disarm your population & theyre easier to control. Fortunately, our forefathers came from a country where the government used that to their advantage. God bless America! 🇺🇸
Grateful 🙏
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Those JSB MKII 33.95gr blew open a couple of squirrels at 75 yards the last time I used my .25 cal. tuned to 55 FPE. It was kinda grewsome and shocking to see.
Keith,
thanks for the comment. 👍🏼
I'm not sure what you found that looked gruesome and shocking because your projectile "blew open" the squirrels.
Let's compare: ● Your .25cal JSB Heavy 33.95 hit them critters with about 680fps (35FPE) that's pretty slow and low-ish in power. ➠ You got achieved a high level of destruction. ✅
➠ vs. ➠
● My .25cal JSB Heavy 33.95 hit my 26-yard pigeons with about 850fps (55FPE). ➠ Yet I just made a couple of holes into them no massive destruction like what you achieved.... ⛔
WHY is that? I'm trying to understand! 👍🏼
Matthias
Your pellets may be going too fast for a pigeon. At 850 fps, I suspect a 33.95 gr pellet is taking most of it's energy with it on the exit. Maybe try a H&N Crow Magnum at around 600-650 fps and see if it doesn't result in a little more spectacular results.
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"Disarm your population & theyre easier to control." Fortunately, our forefathers came from a country where the government used that to their advantage.
God bless America! 🇺🇸
Yes, may God bless America!! ⭐⭐⭐
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Your pellets may be going too fast for a pigeon. At 850 fps, I suspect a 33.95 gr pellet is taking most of it's energy with it on the exit.
Maybe try a H&N Crow Magnum at around 600-650 fps and see if it doesn't result in a little more spectacular results.
Alton,
that is a very interesting suggestion!
My thinking behind the high velocities was this:
In order for a hit to tear the pest to pieces I need a large area of impact.
➔ Therefore, I want a hollow point projectile.
➔ That HP needs to expand, otherwise it'll just make a caliber sized hole.
➔ Therefore, the HP needs to impact with high velocity, preferrably 800fps or higher (on impact), below 700fps (on impact) there won't be much expansion.
Would you explain your reasoning behind the slow velocity?
Thanks,Matthias
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A lot of weird stuff can happen on impact with a animal. Generally, the faster a projectile moves, the more damage it does. Everything else being equal, a projectile does a lot more damage at 850 fps vs 650 fps. It doesnt just zip through with less damage. But sometimes crazy stuff happens that cant be explained. But i think its because tissue is high in fluid content.
Empty plastic bottles and aluminum cans are different, you can pierce them with enough velocity without a dent.
A full water bottle is more telling. The faster you hit it the more spectacular the result.
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Your pellets may be going too fast for a pigeon. At 850 fps, I suspect a 33.95 gr pellet is taking most of it's energy with it on the exit.
Maybe try a H&N Crow Magnum at around 600-650 fps and see if it doesn't result in a little more spectacular results.
Alton,
that is a very interesting suggestion!
My thinking behind the high velocities was this:
In order for a hit to tear the pest to pieces — I need a large area of impact.
➔ Therefore, I want a hollow point projectile.
➔ That HP needs to expand, otherwise it'll just make a caliber sized hole.
➔ Therefore, the HP needs to impact with high velocity, preferrably 800fps or higher (on impact), below 700fps (on impact) there won't be much expansion.
Would you explain your reasoning behind the slow velocity?
Thanks,Matthias
It limits over penetration (Leaving more of the available energy in the target). I've had the Crow Magnums expand nicely between 650-700 fps, depending on the target. I have some 26 gr FX hollowpoint slugs (.25 cal.) that have enough drag to average around 650 fps from my Benjamin, and they still expand pretty nicely after slightly enlarging the hollowpoint opening. I suspect pellet lead expands at lower velocities than regular firearm ammo. If I could figure out how to post pictures here I'd put a couple before/after examples.
As a general rule, velocity increases the energy potential, but bullets are different than pellets. With bullets greater velocity=more hydro shock and its attendant damage. Pellet rifles don't usually produce those energy levels. At the same velocity and caliber, a bullet would likely contain a lot more mass and add much to the energy. That's why I thought dumping more energy into the target, even with less velocity, might work. If your pellets exit the pigeon at 750 fps they're leaving about 12 ft/lbs in the bird. This is my theory, and I am not a ballistics expert, but I don't have any pigeons to test it on, so.....
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I've had the Crow Magnums expand nicely between 650-700 fps, depending on the target. I have some 26 gr FX hollowpoint slugs (.25 cal.), and they still expand pretty nicely after slightly enlarging the hollowpoint opening. If I could figure out how to post pictures here I'd put a couple before/after examples.
You are spot on with distinguishing firearms rifle ammo from airgun ammo no hydrostatic shock at such low velocities. 👍🏼
I'd love to hear how you achieved expansion with the Crow Magnums and the Hybrids at low velocities:
➊ What medium did you shoot them into? 10% Ballistic gel a squirrel a water bottle?
➋ How much expansion did you get? Did a .25cal projectile with 0.25" diameter expand to 0.31" diameter = an increase of only 25%?
Or what was it? 😊
Matthias
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Search You Tube for squirrel hunting .22 vs .25 comparison on Teds Holdover . Pretty telling results , this is why I got a .25 for hunting .
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Using my Diana 54 in .22 and my marauder .25 I honestly dont see a lot of difference when shooting rabbits, squirrels etc. both have pass through shots. The Diana hunting rabbits jump straight up in the air 3-5 and land dead. I think if I was shooting slugs out of a .22 vs a .25 there may be more noticeable differences. The ability to buck the wind from a heavier slug etc
but realistically, I dont see a huge difference.
The .25 does make a unique smack sound when it hits small game though.
I never intentionally set out to own a .25 pcp. I got mine during covid shortages on everything and found this one available used. I shoot it less than Id like because the cheap pellet options arent so cheap
I still may try converting it to .22
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I agree that the .25 cal pellets have a unique smack sound on small game. I bought all the .25cal Baracuda Hunter Extremes 28g that the local Gander Outdoors marked down to $8 ea when they stopped selling firearms. I still have 12 tins so that will last me a while. They fully open up at 800fps and a solid hit in the kill zone drops the target instantly. Both of my .25cals are built on Disco tubes with the power valves that Magnum Airpower used to sell. The valves are not made from a regular Disco valve but are custom built for more volume and use a Marauder exhaust valve stem. You get less shots with them but more power for a hunting gun in the larger calibers. With the stronger valve mounting screws they can be filled up to 3000psi.
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Your pellets may be going too fast for a pigeon. At 850 fps, I suspect a 33.95 gr pellet is taking most of it's energy with it on the exit.
Maybe try a H&N Crow Magnum at around 600-650 fps and see if it doesn't result in a little more spectacular results.
Alton,
that is a very interesting suggestion!
My thinking behind the high velocities was this:
In order for a hit to tear the pest to pieces I need a large area of impact.
➔ Therefore, I want a hollow point projectile.
➔ That HP needs to expand, otherwise it'll just make a caliber sized hole.
➔ Therefore, the HP needs to impact with high velocity, preferrably 800fps or higher (on impact), below 700fps (on impact) there won't be much expansion.
Would you explain your reasoning behind the slow velocity?
Thanks,Matthias
In my experience if I shoot at high velocity with any caliber at a metal can it makes a small hole with little fuss. If I shoot that same can with a low powered .177 that doesn't pass through it ends up flipping the can through the air making a huge dent and causing something that might be more akin to what you are hoping for your pigeons.
The shape of the pellet doesn't matter in this case - what matters is that all of its energy is dumped into the can and in this case a lower energy pellet dumps more energy into the can than the high energy that zip through. If I want to get the spectacular affect with the higher power I have to hit the can at a place where it is tough enough to slow the bullet a bit (like hitting the bottom of the can edge on)
I'm definitely not trying to convince you to keep any particular .25 gun in spite of this thread title. it sounds like you don't like the gun itself if I read this right although I haven't read it all that carefully.
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The bigger the chunk of lead, the less likely the run-offs and fly-offs will be. This has been my experience, anyway. I started out with .22, then moved up to .25 and then to .30 for this very reason when trying to shoot squirrels under a feeder at 85 yards from a deer stand. Many ran off with .22. A lot less with .25 and practically none with .30. This is the very reason I moved up in caliber. Near fifty squirrels can eat a lot of corn each day and I wanted to thin them out and cook some up back at camp.
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Hard targets at high velocity it zips through, sure. Tissue is the exact opposite.
The most spectacular wounding you will ever see is from the fastest projectile. This is not a new phenomenon.
In the airgun world it is a misconception because most of the time we are comparing small, and or light, and fast to bigger, heavier, but slower.
Same projectiles, same size and weight, the faster one does the most damage. Exceptions are rare but they happen.
Bones maybe an exception, being hard.
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I've had the Crow Magnums expand nicely between 650-700 fps, depending on the target. I have some 26 gr FX hollowpoint slugs (.25 cal.), and they still expand pretty nicely after slightly enlarging the hollowpoint opening. If I could figure out how to post pictures here I'd put a couple before/after examples.
You are spot on with distinguishing firearms rifle ammo from airgun ammo no hydrostatic shock at such low velocities. 👍🏼
I'd love to hear how you achieved expansion with the Crow Magnums and the Hybrids at low velocities:
➊ What medium did you shoot them into? 10% Ballistic gel a squirrel a water bottle?
➋ How much expansion did you get? Did a .25cal projectile with 0.25" diameter expand to 0.31" diameter = an increase of only 25%?
Or what was it? 😊
Matthias
Mostly water bottles, filled with the cap on tight. The Crow Magnums are fired from a Benjamin NP XL with a few minor mods. I came up with a 699 fps average, but that may have been before I upgraded the Nitro Piston. I'll work on uploading the pictures again, as I can't find the pellets to measure them. The Crow Magnums seem to expand pretty easily. I'm not getting any kind of spectacular 100% expansion, just a nice spread of the pellet's head. Purely anecdotal, but the H&N Hornets just go right through a full gallon jug, leaving two equal sized holes at just under 850 fps. My thinking, (loosely defined. LOL) is the Hornet is taking enough energy to pierce the second jug wall and disappear, so the whole 35 ft/lbs isn't dumped in to the target. The Crow Magnum hits the second jug wall, but doesn't penetrate, therefore, leaving all 29 ft/lbs in the target medium. Less potential energy but more kinetic energy imparted on impact.
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I agree crow magnums are spectacular if your gun likes them. I havent seen a perfect mushroom out of them or any pellet, but they definitely do more damage than a dome pellet at close range.
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THANK YOU for sharing your advice to my OP about if a .25cal can make spectacular kills on pigeons.
Thanks for answering my somewhat detailed questions after that.
I appreciate the help I can get here at GTA! 😃
🟠 I have had two more outings with the gun two more chances for the gun to convince me to keep it.... 😉
Same quarry same power but a few more projectiles and scope cam slo-mo recording to make sure I see what's happening.
🟠 My report: Nothing new nothing spectacular. Dead is dead. And that's literally the end of it (if it were not for what happened at the end of the outing....😊)
Though, I admit, a buddy of mine with a 19FPE .22 PCP had a harder time anchoring those pesky pests pigeons. 👍🏼⫐ His puny 13.43gr JSB RS (.22cal) crawled at 800fps for a measly 19FPE.
vs.
ᗝ My mighty 39.95gr JSB Heavy (.25cal) soared at 914fps for a meat-grinding 63FPE more than 3 times his power.
➠ Like many ouf you suggested, higher power usually gives a higher anchoring quota. 🤷🏻♂️
🟠 However, at the end it was already dark I set up my shooting table at one end of the property, and measured 185m = 202y to the other end.
And that's were a little bit of magic happened. ⭐
(I'm waiting to get my target poster back to show you a photo so you can evaluate it.)
➠ Follow-up is coming soon. 👍🏼
Matthias
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Your pellets may be going too fast for a pigeon. At 850 fps, I suspect a 33.95 gr pellet is taking most of it's energy with it on the exit.
Maybe try a H&N Crow Magnum at around 600-650 fps and see if it doesn't result in a little more spectacular results.
Alton,
that is a very interesting suggestion!
My thinking behind the high velocities was this:
In order for a hit to tear the pest to pieces I need a large area of impact.
➔ Therefore, I want a hollow point projectile.
➔ That HP needs to expand, otherwise it'll just make a caliber sized hole.
➔ Therefore, the HP needs to impact with high velocity, preferrably 800fps or higher (on impact), below 700fps (on impact) there won't be much expansion.
Would you explain your reasoning behind the slow velocity?
Thanks,Matthias
In my experience if I shoot at high velocity with any caliber at a metal can it makes a small hole with little fuss. If I shoot that same can with a low powered .177 that doesn't pass through it ends up flipping the can through the air making a huge dent and causing something that might be more akin to what you are hoping for your pigeons.
The shape of the pellet doesn't matter in this case - what matters is that all of its energy is dumped into the can and in this case a lower energy pellet dumps more energy into the can than the high energy that zip through. If I want to get the spectacular affect with the higher power I have to hit the can at a place where it is tough enough to slow the bullet a bit (like hitting the bottom of the can edge on)
I'm definitely not trying to convince you to keep any particular .25 gun in spite of this thread title. it sounds like you don't like the gun itself if I read this right although I haven't read it all that carefully.
Its my understanding which I am sure is imperfect, that at air rifle velocities there really isnt a huge difference based on projectile shape. We are much more looking at energy transfer. Some firearm projectiles like a .17 hmr practically explode when they hit, but those are unattainable speeds for air powered weapons. Airguns are a lot more like black powder rifles, or archery only without cutting broad heads-to my thinking anyway.
They shoot relatively slow, and the goal is to poke a hole in something important aka the kill zone. They arent really killing the same way a modern powder burner does.
My 17HMR will not shoot through both sides of a coffee can filled with water -with standard polymer tipped ammo, the bullet basically explodes transferring all its energy to the water-its a nasty little cartridge, airguns just arent working at those energy levels .
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Sometimes low power is the only way, check these modest powered rigs out.
https://youtu.be/Y9S-VN6Cx2s
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LOL... Move over NOTOS.. except they are comparing a $1200 gun to a $275 gun.. speaks volumes to the NOTOS for me.
The Vixen is a sweet gun but miles out of my price range.
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I wanna say the Prod was dropping them much better, much cheaper.