GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Gamo Airguns => Topic started by: mikeyb on April 13, 2024, 11:56:45 AM
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From thread:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=210737.msg156528358#msg156528358
To here:
With respect to all involved, the thread topic linked above seemed to be veering off into a trigger discussion. To keep the original thread on target I chose to post my comments on triggers here as a separate thread.
Disclaimer: Bad trigger adjustments can be made on ANY type of trigger that will make it unsafe or unusable. It is the responsibility of the individual MAKING any adjustments/changes to understand, accept, and mitigate the risks involved. If you are not willing to take responsibility for your own actions then please DON'T work on airgun triggers.
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I have only worked on 1 older (SAT?) Gamo trigger but MANY of the other triggers I HAVE worked on are very similar in design.
I'm fairly certain the Gamo SAT (smooth action trigger) was supposed to be update of an older version trigger group that more closely resembles the older Crosman (B19) and current Hatsan Edge triggers.
The CAT (custom action trigger) is supposed to be an update of the SAT.
Here is an interesting youtube comparison of the SAT verses CAT Gamo triggers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6M9tjKG6B4
To me BOTH the SAT and CAT are still really 1-stage triggers. The initial movement of the trigger blade is against a spring and is basically a FAKE first stage. It does nothing to move the sear position until a part of the trigger blade actually touches the sear and begins to move that sear. Initial contact with the sear lever is what "feels" like the second stage wall of a real 2-stage trigger.
Seems to me that Gamo had the chance to make a REAL 2-stage trigger for the SAT>CAT upgrade but just didn't follow through(?) Yes the geometry is a little different and so is the adjustment, but they are basically the same 1-stage trigger.
I'm NOT bashing these simple triggers! In fact I actually LIKE them! IMO the equivalent of the SAT in my older Crosman(B19) rifles and the similar version used in my Hatsan Striker/Edge rifles is super easy to safely adjust/modify to get MY nearly perfect springer trigger.
They are just NOT true 2-stage triggers even though they may FEEL like one.
Hatsan Edge trigger... (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/gallery/albums/AirGunImage_shy;s/Dir_1/main_7822.gif)
Trigger groups like the Hatsan Quattro for example are designed to be 2-stage. The Quattro has an additional sear lever but that is NOT what makes it 2-stage. The trigger blade has 2 distinct and adjustable contact points with a sear lever. When properly adjusted the initial trigger blade movement goes through a light "true" first stage which reduces the sear overlap by half or more. The second contact point with the sear then takes over. That feels like an increase in trigger resistance which is usually described as the second-stage-wall. From that point the trigger blade only needs to move a very short distance to finish sear movement and release the piston. Ideally this feels like snapping-a-small-glass-rod to fire.
Hatsan Quattro trigger... (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/gallery/albums/AirGunImage_shy;s/Dir_1/main_7821.gif)
My simple animations are to-scale and are intended to show only basic part motion. The animations do NOT show springs, safety levers, or details about stages and adjustments. The Edge trigger blade only has 1 contact point and the group has 1 adjustment to pre-move the sear (reduce sear overlap). The Quattro trigger blade has 2 separate stage contact points(adjustable) and the group has a third adjustment for pull weight.
*** Regarding the GRT trigger blade ***
https://www.charliedatuna.com/GRT-4G.htm
I don't own any of the GRT trigger blades so I cannot 100% verify my next statement. From the images I see online it really looks to me like the GRT trigger blade has 2 working contact points with the sear. That means it really DOES upgrade the trigger group to 2-stages if/when properly adjusted.
Per reviews MANY people love this trigger upgrade!
Most of my springers that could accept a GRT blade upgrade are overstocks/refurbs purchased for under $100. Many closer to $50 and some even less. I'm just not motivated to spend $30+ on a trigger blade for a $50 springer. I may get a GRT blade someday but for now I choose the low cost mods for my cheap springer triggers.
FWIW... I like to set up my 1st-stage (fake=slack-takeup on the simple triggers) to be only ounces up to the 2nd-stage wall. Length of the first stage doesn't matter to me at all when it is a light pull and I can easily FEEL and hold at the 2nd-stage wall. Then I want a short 2-2.5 lb snap to fire on my hunting/pesting/plinking springers. That is MY IDEAL springer trigger. I have modified/adjusted all my simple springer triggers (except the direct sear Noricas) SAFELY down to that profile. I would NOT TRUST any of my simple triggers adjusted much lighter than this. IMO the smaller sear overlap needed to go lighter would be unsafe.
A 2-stage trigger theoretically has ALL parts designed from the ground up to be a 2-stage trigger and each stage should be adjustable for length and pull weight. THAT trigger group "should" be able to be safely adjusted to have a much lighter trigger pull.
Since the GRT blade is designed to make an existing 1-stage trigger group into a 2-stage, the overall adjustability is limited.
From the GRT instructions pdf "The trigger pull weight cannot be adjusted."
That could be an issue for someone expecting too much from a GRT blade upgrade. It is well designed and well executed but it can't fix ALL the problems people have with the simple trigger groups.
Anyone interested in getting a GRT trigger should READ the installation instructions FIRST. Then they will fully understand the installation/adjustment process and the results they can expect.
Cheers :-)
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Thanks, Michel. Interesting stuff. I don't know enough to disassemble triggers except the simple ones like a B3 or B4. I can do the RC roller bearing mod on Crosmans and install a GRT trigger. You can google that. A GRT trigger makes a good gun a great gun. RC roller bearing is good but not as good as a GRT.
Guns with RC roller bearing mod:
Benjamin Silver model 1500STM 1lbs 15oz
Crosman Fury 1lbs 10oz
Crosman Fury 1lbs 1oz
Remington 777SB gas ram 1lbs 3oz
Remington Summit 1lbs 15oz
Crosman Phantom 2lbs 5oz
Guns with GRT triggers:
Gamo Swarm Gen.1 convert to single shot 13oz
Gamo Shadow 1000 10oz
Gamo Silent Cat 1lbs 10oz
Crosman Storm 15oz
Crosman Storm in a Bemj. TH stock 6oz
Crosman G1 Extreme 9oz
Hope that's informative. Later.
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I agree. The Gamo Theoben/B19, SAT/CAT trigger etc... are single stage triggers with one upon the other incorporating improvements over the years. The SAT can be modified to equal a CAT which is better than original Gamo Theoben. A properly adjusted & modified SAT is a decent trigger. Likewise with the CAT. Original stamped steel Gamo Theoben I don't care for.
The GRT trigger does have two contact points and is a two stage trigger in a subtle sort of way (when adjusted correctly). Otherwise, it is a single stage trigger.
By subtle I mean this: a properly adjusted Rekord and T06/T05/ Diana ball sear trigger adjusted for 2 stages has a distinct wall between the first stage and the second stage. A light squeeze will come to an obvious stop before the gun fires. It's as simple as one - two.
The GRT otoh, has more of a road bump second stage. Go slow and light and the trigger will stop before releasing the sear. Anymore pressure than slow and light and the road bump second stage is little more than a minor observation while firing the gun.
That's my opinion...
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All my GRT triggers and triggers with the RC roller bearing mod are light and have no first stage the way I like them.
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From thread:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=210737.msg156528358#msg156528358
To here:
With respect to all involved, the thread topic linked above seemed to be veering off into a trigger discussion. To keep the original thread on target I chose to post my comments on triggers here as a separate thread.
Disclaimer: Bad trigger adjustments can be made on ANY type of trigger that will make it unsafe or unusable. It is the responsibility of the individual MAKING any adjustments/changes to understand, accept, and mitigate the risks involved. If you are not willing to take responsibility for your own actions then please DON'T work on airgun triggers.
**********
I have only worked on 1 older (SAT?) Gamo trigger but MANY of the other triggers I HAVE worked on are very similar in design.
I'm fairly certain the Gamo SAT (smooth action trigger) was supposed to be update of an older version trigger group that more closely resembles the older Crosman (B19) and current Hatsan Edge triggers.
The CAT (custom action trigger) is supposed to be an update of the SAT.
Here is an interesting youtube comparison of the SAT verses CAT Gamo triggers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6M9tjKG6B4
To me BOTH the SAT and CAT are still really 1-stage triggers. The initial movement of the trigger blade is against a spring and is basically a FAKE first stage. It does nothing to move the sear position until a part of the trigger blade actually touches the sear and begins to move that sear. Initial contact with the sear lever is what "feels" like the second stage wall of a real 2-stage trigger.
Seems to me that Gamo had the chance to make a REAL 2-stage trigger for the SAT>CAT upgrade but just didn't follow through(?) Yes the geometry is a little different and so is the adjustment, but they are basically the same 1-stage trigger.
I'm NOT bashing these simple triggers! In fact I actually LIKE them! IMO the equivalent of the SAT in my older Crosman(B19) rifles and the similar version used in my Hatsan Striker/Edge rifles is super easy to safely adjust/modify to get MY nearly perfect springer trigger.
They are just NOT true 2-stage triggers even though they may FEEL like one.
Hatsan Edge trigger... (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/gallery/albums/AirGunImage_shy;s/Dir_1/main_7822.gif)
Trigger groups like the Hatsan Quattro for example are designed to be 2-stage. The Quattro has an additional sear lever but that is NOT what makes it 2-stage. The trigger blade has 2 distinct and adjustable contact points with a sear lever. When properly adjusted the initial trigger blade movement goes through a light "true" first stage which reduces the sear overlap by half or more. The second contact point with the sear then takes over. That feels like an increase in trigger resistance which is usually described as the second-stage-wall. From that point the trigger blade only needs to move a very short distance to finish sear movement and release the piston. Ideally this feels like snapping-a-small-glass-rod to fire.
Hatsan Quattro trigger... (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/gallery/albums/AirGunImage_shy;s/Dir_1/main_7821.gif)
My simple animations are to-scale and are intended to show only basic part motion. The animations do NOT show springs, safety levers, or details about stages and adjustments. The Edge trigger blade only has 1 contact point and the group has 1 adjustment to pre-move the sear (reduce sear overlap). The Quattro trigger blade has 2 separate stage contact points(adjustable) and the group has a third adjustment for pull weight.
*** Regarding the GRT trigger blade ***
https://www.charliedatuna.com/GRT-4G.htm
I don't own any of the GRT trigger blades so I cannot 100% verify my next statement. From the images I see online it really looks to me like the GRT trigger blade has 2 working contact points with the sear. That means it really DOES upgrade the trigger group to 2-stages if/when properly adjusted.
Per reviews MANY people love this trigger upgrade!
Most of my springers that could accept a GRT blade upgrade are overstocks/refurbs purchased for under $100. Many closer to $50 and some even less. I'm just not motivated to spend $30+ on a trigger blade for a $50 springer. I may get a GRT blade someday but for now I choose the low cost mods for my cheap springer triggers.
FWIW... I like to set up my 1st-stage (fake=slack-takeup on the simple triggers) to be only ounces up to the 2nd-stage wall. Length of the first stage doesn't matter to me at all when it is a light pull and I can easily FEEL and hold at the 2nd-stage wall. Then I want a short 2-2.5 lb snap to fire on my hunting/pesting/plinking springers. That is MY IDEAL springer trigger. I have modified/adjusted all my simple springer triggers (except the direct sear Noricas) SAFELY down to that profile. I would NOT TRUST any of my simple triggers adjusted much lighter than this. IMO the smaller sear overlap needed to go lighter would be unsafe.
A 2-stage trigger theoretically has ALL parts designed from the ground up to be a 2-stage trigger and each stage should be adjustable for length and pull weight. THAT trigger group "should" be able to be safely adjusted to have a much lighter trigger pull.
Since the GRT blade is designed to make an existing 1-stage trigger group into a 2-stage, the overall adjustability is limited.
From the GRT instructions pdf "The trigger pull weight cannot be adjusted."
That could be an issue for someone expecting too much from a GRT blade upgrade. It is well designed and well executed but it can't fix ALL the problems people have with the simple trigger groups.
Anyone interested in getting a GRT trigger should READ the installation instructions FIRST. Then they will fully understand the installation/adjustment process and the results they can expect.
Cheers :-)
Mikeyb--- Thanks for breaking these "simple" triggers down and creating this narrative. Your "bad adjustments" comment is especially relative here, since most of us just want a trigger that "breaks" in such a way as to make the rifle "shoot-able". By that I mean a trigger that is safe, with such a pull that one can use and shoot our rifles accurately, especially in the offhand (standing) position. Even a rifle with a terrible trigger pull can be shot somewhat accurately from a SUPPORTED position, if it can be held on target while the pull is executed. NOT easy to do in the offhand position. A "better" trigger pull/break is really required. However, it is VERY easy to get carried away with modifications/adjustments on these triggers in our quest to get these simple triggers to "break" to our satisfaction. Therein lies the problem... How far can you take these triggers to get them where we want them (shoot-able) SAFELY? The only trigger that I know of, that is built from the ground up to do this is the Rekord. Perhaps there are others, but the Rekord is the most commonly known. The simple triggers that we are discussing here just don't compare. Even the installation of the GRT blade, at an approximate cost of $30, is only a half-measure. But at least it can get these triggers shooting much better for us, and may be the best option available to folks that don't have, say, Mikeyb's abilities to do trigger mods. Like Mikey, I am a bit reluctant to spend the $30+ on the GRT, and so I rely on an adjustment regime that works for me. Typically, that entails the "longer screw" type mods, and polishing of key contact areas. The take-away here though, is NOT to get GREEDY with adjustments. Be happy/satisfied with what I would call a moderate, middle of the road, adjustment that is SAFE. I think that is where you need a bit of discipline, because it is always just SO tempting to take it (the adjustments) further. My advice is DON'T!!
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The GRT triggers do work as a 2 stage trigger when adjusted right. You will feel the first stage move the sear up to break point and the wall. From there a little more pressure and it breaks. There has always been talk of it being dangerous if you pull the trigger up to the wall and then don't fire the gun leaving the sear at the break point. It won't reset back into normal position when let off and that is something to be aware of on almost all these triggers modded or not. I tested it on my stock Crosman trigger and it does not reset either. You can pull it up till almost going off and it will stay there until fired. As far as the Gamo CAT trigger the longer screw mod makes this an amazing trigger when adjusted right. Still technically a 1 stage trigger because 1st stage just takes up the slack to the wall. I shoot these and my GRT triggers along side Rekords, Walther 2 stage triggers, Rowan and Factory along with Air Arms Trigger. The GRT's do have a little more pull weight, but not bad. My Pro Sport came so bad out of adjustment it had a single stage 8oz trigger with know wall. You start pulling back like going through first stage and shortly after it would go off. It felt like like taking up slack it was so light and bang. I'm guessing you could really set this trigger to be a really light 2 stage trigger. I like about 8 ozs on take up, then break at about 1 lb. All you really feel is 8 ozs or so to break 2nd stage as your holding the other 8 already.