GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => China/Asian AirGun Gate => Topic started by: Methuselah on March 10, 2024, 05:27:24 PM
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Just received yesterday, first group 17 yards had lots of flyers that seemed to coincide with cheek weld, so 2nd group barely made contact cheek-to-stock.
Looks like the 14.43 JSBs aren't quite THE pellet, but maybe the flyers will go away with a barrel cleaning? My understanding is it's broken in already.
It does look like with the right pellet it should shoot better than I do...
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If you've never cleaned the barrel that's the starting point. I would use something like Ballistol or Hoppe's Number Nine. Either will detonate so be sure to follow with several dry patches. You may still get some slight detonation until solvent dissipates from the pores in the metal.
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Steve, I think you will get better groups as you get used to the rifle. Also, play around with the second stage trigger screw to adjust the release weight. There are two screws in front of the trigger blade. The one farthest away from the trigger will help you fine tune the 2nd stage release weight. Turn in clockwise 1/8th of a turn at a time (this will make the 2nd stage release ligther) until you are satisfied with the release. I think the fliers will go away once you get used to the shooting cycle and get the trigger light enough to your liking! Certainly cant hurt to try other pellets either.
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Hi Hassan, glad you jumped in, wasn't sure you would want to ;D
It cronied (is that a word?) 660 first shot, now after posted groups was 680 and no cold bore flyer. I'm thinking the same thing, just shoot it a bit more.
I haven't adjusted the trigger but it seemed OK, and have a gage, 2 - 3# is what I'm used to ... for other readers, Hassan is the original owner and it's got 2nd screw mod and MM tune.
A wet patch with goo gone, simply green, or patch-out (followed by alcohol), and mopping dry might not hurt but I usually bronze brush new acquisitions or even jb bore paste for flyers sometimes. Wasn't going to try the latter three thinking MM already did.
Those groups, so far, are no "fully" bench rested, and I reckon it is a magnum springer with challenges I'll need to get used to so I appreciate your insight ;)
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If you've never cleaned the barrel that's the starting point. I would use something like Ballistol or Hoppe's Number Nine. Either will detonate so be sure to follow with several dry patches. You may still get some slight detonation until solvent dissipates from the pores in the metal.
I just added some history to the thread, what do you think about using goo gone? I'll probably try for another group or two with better rest first to see if the groups shrink...
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As I recall Goo Gone is a brand name for several different compounds. If you're talking about the one that smells like naptha or old lighter fluid it should work great just remember about the detonation. As far as the trigger adjustments, unless the second screw mod has been performed you'll only have one adjustment as the clones have the clone of a Diana T05 trigger. It's easy enough to add the second stage mod should you choose to do so and it makes a world of difference on the trigger pull.
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As I recall Goo Gone is a brand name for several different compounds. If you're talking about the one that smells like naptha or old lighter fluid it should work great just remember about the detonation. As far as the trigger adjustments, unless the second screw mod has been performed you'll only have one adjustment as the clones have the clone of a Diana T05 trigger. It's easy enough to add the second stage mod should you choose to do so and it makes a world of difference on the trigger pull.
It's got the 2nd screw mod
First things first will probably just shoot another group to check for flyers, maybe with front and rear bags this time at short(er) range...
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On Bags, front and rear pushing down on the rear bag (inconsistent pressure), and just the front bag, with my hand between bag and rifle, palm-up. Both grazing the cheek weld.
Trigger pull looking good, 1# 13.8 oz, 1# 9.1 oz, 2# 0.4 oz, 1# 15.1 oz, avg 1# 13.6 oz.
Some pellets fit with some resistance on insertion, some just drop into the breach. There was some fuzz stuck in the breach seal that I removed, and closing the breach can be "variable" or slightly inconsistent depending on whether or not I'm paying attention when I close it.
I'm guessing Hassan is right about needing to get used to the shooting cycle, but I'll probably go ahead and run a few patches through it.
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If the pivot screw is too tight lockup will be inconsistent. Watch the rear stock screw - it can tend to come loose and elevation will vary.
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On Bags, front and rear pushing down on the rear bag (inconsistent pressure), and just the front bag, with my hand between bag and rifle, palm-up. Both grazing the cheek weld.
Trigger pull looking good, 1# 13.8 oz, 1# 9.1 oz, 2# 0.4 oz, 1# 15.1 oz, avg 1# 13.6 oz.
Some pellets fit with some resistance on insertion, some just drop into the breach. There was some fuzz stuck in the breach seal that I removed, and closing the breach can be "variable" or slightly inconsistent depending on whether or not I'm paying attention when I close it.
I'm guessing Hassan is right about needing to get used to the shooting cycle, but I'll probably go ahead and run a few patches through it.
Steve, your groups are getting better. Vertical stringing usually comes down to hold. Or it can be due to pellets not fitting consistently. I have heard of people having really good results with RWS Superdome .22 Cal, 14.5 Grains in the XS25. As Roadworthy mentioned, check the pivot screw and loosen it a bit and see how your groups change. It took about 200ish pellets to get my hold right on this rifle. I was using it for pest control. I have taken down many a targets at 25-35 yards with great consistency. Hoping you find the right hold and pellet combination that works for you as well.
It seems you are using a scope, have you tried to shoot at this distance with open sights just to see if anything changes?
Good luck and if you cannot get the result you want, reach out to MM and see what he has to say. Maybe a breach seal is in need for replacement but that is all speculation at this point.
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The barrel pivot is probably close enough, as once cocked there are places where it holds position and other spots where it doesn't.
If I wanted to get it more consistent, I suppose one could add valve grinding compound to the surfaces and work it until it "lapped" the surface flat but it seems to shoot consistent if I just pay enough attention to make sure it is moving as it crosses the detent ball.
That first round flyer does seem to come and go, could be if the first pellet fits loosely - I'd have to pay more attention to know.
Agreed though, that I could ask Mike if I run out of ideas, but I reckon I also need to shoot it some more to see if I can learn how it wants to be held.
I stretched it out a little earler today and it wants to hit the same spot...
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If the pivot screw is too tight lockup will be inconsistent. Watch the rear stock screw - it can tend to come loose and elevation will vary.
When I checked all were tight including that one. I'm very tempted to lapp the barrel, but I'd have to remove the stock and barrel, yes?
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If the pivot screw is too tight lockup will be inconsistent. Watch the rear stock screw - it can tend to come loose and elevation will vary.
When I checked all were tight including that one. I'm very tempted to lapp the barrel, but I'd have to remove the stock and barrel, yes?
I am not sure if MM lapped the barrel but it certrainly cannot hurt. It might actually improve consistency and perhaps get rid of the flyers you are getting.
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New rifle? Don't worry about acc. to much for the first 100 to 200 shots, new hone in chamber and new seal will take that long to seat, then give it a light clean.....also breaks in shooter
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Try some Crosman Premier Domes.
Also H&N FTT.
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@mikeiniowa over 750 rounds into break in when I got it.
Anther 5 round salvo earlier this morning.
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Argh! Still plodding my way through this --- tried CPHP's this time. All fit snug in the leade but one and it went where most others did, so I suppose that's progress, if you call what's on the target I'm posting progress.
The range was a close 11 yards, the "base" not particularly sturdy and it was rested a square of closed cell foam padding. It didn't seem to care if the padding was up against the trigger, or at center of weight farther toward muzzle at balance point.
As before, a solid cheek weld throws the POA quite a bit. My thumb on top opposing trigger finger, no change if removed. Maybe 20-25 rounds in that big hole. Looks like two groups, seen that before.
Then the top 3 rounds, two on bottom hole. Strange, just strange.
Maybe I'm just being lazy, I have a vise and some grips for holding a gun barrel in the (plastic) jaws. I suppose it can stay cocked long enough to bronze brush it and run some patches. I thing that's my next step, along with perhaps ordering some other pellets to try (?)
It makes enough noise I'm not sure if I hear the piston hitting the end of the chamber or not, but quite the kick for an air gun at 13 Fpe. I'm beginning to wonder if the scope is whack, as paralax settings are way higher than actual.
Here's the target
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Argh! Still plodding my way through this --- tried CPHP's this time. All fit snug in the leade but one and it went where most others did, so I suppose that's progress, if you call what's on the target I'm posting progress.
The range was a close 11 yards, the "base" not particularly sturdy and it was rested a square of closed cell foam padding. It didn't seem to care if the padding was up against the trigger, or at center of weight farther toward muzzle at balance point.
As before, a solid cheek weld throws the POA quite a bit. My thumb on top opposing trigger finger, no change if removed. Maybe 20-25 rounds in that big hole. Looks like two groups, seen that before.
Then the top 3 rounds, two on bottom hole. Strange, just strange.
Maybe I'm just being lazy, I have a vise and some grips for holding a gun barrel in the (plastic) jaws. I suppose it can stay cocked long enough to bronze brush it and run some patches. I thing that's my next step, along with perhaps ordering some other pellets to try (?)
It makes enough noise I'm not sure if I hear the piston hitting the end of the chamber or not, but quite the kick for an air gun at 13 Fpe. I'm beginning to wonder if the scope is whack, as paralax settings are way higher than actual.
Here's the target
Steve, the mention of piston hitting the end of the chamber could mean the piston seal is the issue maybe? I am no expert but it shouldn't kick like you describe, being a 14fpe springer.
Are you comfortable opening it up and checking the seal for damage?
Do try it open sights to eliminate the possibilty of the scope being an issue.
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Steve, generally inconsistencies on vertical axis are due to velocity variations. sit there and give yourself a good 20 shot strging through a chrony... check for any variation larger than 4% of average. Make sure that you close the barrel and tug it up as to close the breach as consistenly as possible. The b25 (and related rifles) sometimes need that breach seal replaced.
Also it was mentioned before, that screw that holds the rear of the rifle into the stock, loosen it up a bit and then snug it, but not to hard. group it and then tighten it a bit more, try again. compare the results and see if your gun could use some stock bedding... Generally at under 12 fpe those guns dont need it and are quite the shooters... but at 680 ish as you mentioned (that is almost 15 fpe) sometimes bedding will help swallow some recoil.
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If the rifle came from FDAR originally it is under warranty until opened by customer.....just send it in with a note, will fix or replace....
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Now that is a warranty!!! :) when the tuner prompts you to send the gun in, that is standing behind yourbwork… thank you Mike. This is why we buy airguns from You. Bravo!
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If the rifle came from FDAR originally it is under warranty until opened by customer.....just send it in with a note, will fix or replace....
Hi Mike! I'm told it did, it has your extra screw trigger mod :-)
I'd like to make sure it's not me not knowing how to shoot it before I did that. Chrono just now:
714
702.7
702.7
694.8
715.7
703.5
690.9
707.5
714.8
689.4
Crosman Premere Hollow Points, 14.3 gr.
3.7%,16.3 fpe?
If I send me in, can you fix me ;-)
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If I send me in, can you fix me ;-)
+1. God knows "I" could use a tune, and my trigger is a little to light... (and my main spring is probably bent, or just broken... My wife says i could use new seals, especially after mexican food)lol.
Those numbers are still pretty hot. generally they settle down in the 660 to 670 range, and they are quite consistent. Are you sure that gun has 750+ shots through it? it just seems to me as a rifle that has not settled in yet. I had 2 of them in .22, and one was a 650 fps gun, and the other i detuned even further (590 fps). but they were consistent (maybe within 5 fps) and very easy to shoot accurately. I mean, your gun is shooting an avg of 703.6 fps and the variation between the lowest shot and highest is about 26 fps. i would shoot it some more, clean the bore and do a breach seal test.
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If I send me in, can you fix me ;-)
+1. God knows "I" could use a tune, and my trigger is a little to light... (and my main spring is probably bent, or just broken... My wife says i could use new seals, especially after mexican food)lol.
Those numbers are still pretty hot. generally they settle down in the 660 to 670 range, and they are quite consistent. Are you sure that gun has 750+ shots through it? it just seems to me as a rifle that has not settled in yet. I had 2 of them in .22, and one was a 650 fps gun, and the other i detuned even further (590 fps). but they were consistent (maybe within 5 fps) and very easy to shoot accurately. I mean, your gun is shooting an avg of 703.6 fps and the variation between the lowest shot and highest is about 26 fps. i would shoot it some more, clean the bore and do a breach seal test.
I was the previous owner and it most certainly has been shot more than 750 times. I get the feeling it might need Mike's touch. Perhaps something need to be replaced, breach seal, piston seal? Not sure but Mike will get it working again if Steve decides to send it in.
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Personally I would notice such deviation, I like to see 12 fps spreads or better with a well functioning springer.
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Something is very wrong...fix is no problem, just send it in...spring? seal? or replace....
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Something is very wrong...fix is no problem, just send it in...spring? seal? or replace....
I reckon I'll have to, took off the scope and did the tissue test on the breech seal - it's good. Switched to Exact Jumbo Express 14.35 gr which Hassan said was it's favorite, 5 shot string:
633.6
627.8
614.1
648.9
657.1
Rifle is boxed up and well packed
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XS25s is back ... Mike sent a new one along with two tins of pellets for break in, wow, very nice!
First shot right through a gallon container of water.
After below group:
721.5
726.6
723.2
723.2
710.7
719.8
715.7
709.9
710.7
719.0
All fit snuggly in the breach (2%?).
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Couple surprises. First, I was re-reading the "instructions" ... I had thought Mike shot 50 for break in, he asked me to do it. Fair enough, it was to be pointed pellets. No idea why, but I had fired about 25 of the wad cutters already, so gathered up some pointed - the only ones on hand were Crosman pointed.
The last five of which I decided to shoot at a target. Suprise #1, very good group, much better than yesterday. At first I was wondering if they were missing the target altogether. Nope, they were pretty much going through the same hole...
Just for s's and grins, back to wadcutters - wasn't break in, the XS25 likes the Crosman's a lot more than the wadcutters. BTW, all fit well in the breach.
Surprise #2, tried the Chinese wadcutters in the 2260 which wasn't shooting particularly well. Only one "flyer", probably damaged when I forced the bolt because it got stuck in the hole over the screw that mounts the barrel. They all tried to hang there and you have to tip it upward and finesse it a bit.
Will edit from phone to add the pics...
I'm trying to find the Chinese pellets, I want to buy a few tins for the 2260 (no luck so far). I took Mike's advice and ordered some H&N 5.52 tins and the JTS 18.1's as well, but I couldn't help also ordering more of the Crosman pointed "just in case"...
I'm debating whether I'm going to put the scope back on it ;D
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Very few Crosman pointed left in the tin, figured better do it now while I have enough, ten over the chrono:
701.1
666.3
630.4
678.0
674.3
668.5
665.6
684.8
664.2
670.0
Expected better given the group but some did fit better than others and note it "settled" and was shot some before I went for that group as well. No matter, I've put less than 100 rounds through it and the other (recommended) pellets ARE on order so will see how they group and then crono with them...
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Steve,
Genuinely happy to see the rifle shooting well for you and its not even broken in yet. Plus if Mike suggested JTS as the pellet of choice, I imagine you will be grouping really tight groups with the preferred pellet and after proper break-in of a couple of hundred rounds down the chamber!
Hassan
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(Ouch)
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Too late to edit... should not have indicated a problem (ouch).
I had it rested on a towel over the deck railing. Irons come into play with increasing range, and who knows if pellets doing decent at 11 yards will behave beyond...
I'll need to be patient and just keep shooting it until it's got me trained ;)
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Steve,
It took me around 200 ish rounds to get everything working. Meaning, I had to understand the gun, how it likes to be held and understand the shot cycle. While all that learning was happening, the internals are breaking in too.
Springers are a test of patience and I learned that the hard way a long time ago. I know you have several springers so what I am saying is not new to you. Give it time and once you use the right pellets, you will see the rifle will surprise you. Mike stands behind his product and I am certain if he says the JTS 18.1 will give you best results then try them and hopefully you get the performance you are looking for 8)
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Steve,
It took me around 200 ish rounds to get everything working. Meaning, I had to understand the gun, how it likes to be held and understand the shot cycle. While all that learning was happening, the internals are breaking in too.
Springers are a test of patience and I learned that the hard way a long time ago. I know you have several springers so what I am saying is not new to you. Give it time and once you use the right pellets, you will see the rifle will surprise you. Mike stands behind his product and I am certain if he says the JTS 18.1 will give you best results then try them and hopefully you get the performance you are looking for 8)
The JTS's are backordered expected 5/7, so it will take me a little while, but in the meantime I'm still using up the last of the Crosman Pointed and have a few others I can try in it ... I'm just as you say, figuring out how she likes to be held, etc.
Trigger weights were all over the place, but when I shoot it feels very consistent. Same lesson, since it feels the same I am obviously not testing it the same way every time with the pull gage. Just gotta learn the details really matter with a springer.
1# 13.8 oz
2# 5.1 oz
2# 3.7 oz
1# 14.4 oz
1# 8.6 oz
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Still Crosman Pointed, new tin, old pellet design. Ten, not particularly taking my time, 34 feet. Didn't measure, but all would have hit a dime (barely).
Found the screws had come loose and tightened them before shooting this group.
Wanted to scope it for this round but was still inches high at 5 or 6 yards with the erector bound. Breech seal is very close to surface of block. Reverse mounted drooper rail, shimmed ring, floss behind the breech seal, or bend the barrel?
It shoots smoother now that the screws are snugged up :o
Maybe also notable, more pellets from new tin were a loose fit in the breech.
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Next try at ~25 yards 3 or 4 inch "group", checked the screws again. Loose.
Will have to Loctite, or maybe that new stuff (I forgot what it's called).
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Vibra-tite.
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Vibra-tite.
Yup, thanks
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Steve,
It took me around 200 ish rounds to get everything working. Meaning, I had to understand the gun, how it likes to be held and understand the shot cycle. While all that learning was happening, the internals are breaking in too.
Springers are a test of patience and I learned that the hard way a long time ago. I know you have several springers so what I am saying is not new to you. Give it time and once you use the right pellets, you will see the rifle will surprise you. Mike stands behind his product and I am certain if he says the JTS 18.1 will give you best results then try them and hopefully you get the performance you are looking for 8)
The JTS's are backordered expected 5/7, so it will take me a little while, but in the meantime I'm still using up the last of the Crosman Pointed and have a few others I can try in it ... I'm just as you say, figuring out how she likes to be held, etc.
Trigger weights were all over the place, but when I shoot it feels very consistent. Same lesson, since it feels the same I am obviously not testing it the same way every time with the pull gage. Just gotta learn the details really matter with a springer.
1# 13.8 oz
2# 5.1 oz
2# 3.7 oz
1# 14.4 oz
1# 8.6 oz
I am waiting on update on the rifle's accuracy after you have had the chance to try JTS :) Looking forward to seeing good results.
As for the stock screws becoming loose, yea that happened to me as well. I remember one day I was shooting and couldn't get the gun to shoot right and was scratching my head as to what's wrong. It was shooting just fine the day prior but I guess it doesn't take many shots to knock loose the stock screws and the accuracy fall off. Especially during break-in period when the gun shoots harsher than it would otherwise.
Looking forward to an update!
Hassan