GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Hatsan Airguns => Topic started by: aom22 on February 18, 2024, 06:47:21 PM
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It is possible to convert a Hatsan 135 QE Vortex gas-ram to a metallic spring/piston version?
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Well, it is, but why would you want to?
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Longevity ... thinking infrequent use coupled with spurts of weeks/months of non-use.
Not sure how well a gas-ram would maintain full-power ... I know a metallic spring will.
I have a .25-caliber, metallic-spring, Hatsan 125 Sniper that has held-up to such use since 2012.
LITERALLY ... Pulled the Trigger on New .25 Caliber H125 Sniper with Black Stock (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=35627.0)
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i believe the 135 has the same Type 2 gas spring as the Mod. 95.
At least it has the same breech block end on the Vortex.
I think that the parts to convert the 95 to spring are available.
It is possible that the 135 has a longer stroke than the 95...can't remember...
If so, it would require a longer spring and spring guide.
Check this out: https://hatsanairgunsusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Mod135QE-Exploded_View-April2015.pdf
Do you have a spring compressor??
I have resealed several Hatsan Vortex springs. I just did a Mod. 135.
The O-rings that I have replaced in every Vortex gas spring were brittle and crumbled when I removed them.
I replace w/new 90 durometer O-rings that should last for years, especially if stored muzzle down so that the silicone oil pools at the rod gland.
Just my $.02........
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I thought the original 135 models were spring/piston powerplants.
As such, off-the-shelf parts were available - spring and guide included.
https://www.airgundepot.com/hatsan-model-135-177-caliber-air-rifle-walnut.html (https://www.airgundepot.com/hatsan-model-135-177-caliber-air-rifle-walnut.html)
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Yes, they used to come with coil springs. Parts not always available, but...
Mod135 parts needed to convert from air spring (Vortex) to coil spring:
488 polymer disc
533 steel coil spring*
489 steel washer
490 polymer washer
499 polymer (plastic) spring guide
493 polymer end plug (3 hole = for coil spring)*
The Vortex air spring in some of these rifles has been designed/redesigned to WORK WITH a shortened 2-hole end plug. There is STILL a 3rd HOLE in the comp-tube but that pin goes through a hole in the Vortex base. The 2-hole end plug CANNOT be used during a coil spring conversion. I have (one time only) fabricated an adapter that effectively converts a 2-hole end plug to a 3-hole. Getting all the dimensions just-right so the Quattro trigger group fits and works properly was a LARGE & DIFFICULT effort for me and I will NOT be doing that again.
MUST HAVE PARTS:
533 steel coil spring
493 polymer end plug (3 hole = for coil spring)
There is an alternate spring from Vortek (https://vortekproducts.com/products/142-wire-840-od-spring) that can work also. I buy them full length 44 coils open and close/sand/polish the ends myself. Vortek will do it for free if you request it during the order.
The polymer end plug is just too difficult for me to make/modify. Last one I got for a Vortex-to-Coil conversion was for a Mod95 and it was ~$10. WELL WORTH IT!
SUGGESTIONS:
488 polymer disc
Don't bother, not really needed. I find them shredded to bits or missing in most of my refurbs. I think polishing the spring ends and adding a dab of moly paste is a better option.
489 steel washer
490 polymer washer
This forms a thrust bearing that allows the spring to rotate on the LOOSE factory spring guide. The steel washer prevents the last spring coil from shredding plastic and the polymer washer allows slippage and MAY provide a tiny bit of vibration reduction. I MAKE both washers from parts in my scrap bins and size them to fit MY custom spring guide. I have re-used the factory washers but did need to re-size them to fit the custom guide.
499 polymer (plastic) spring guide
... is a bad JOKE. Way too short and way too loose IMO. I make my own spring guides for ALL my Hatsans. The Mod125/Mod135 guides are described here...
https://michaeljbernard.wordpress.com/2020/02/24/2020_02_23_hatsan_mod125_spring_25_refurb/
https://michaeljbernard.wordpress.com/2023/11/12/2023_11_09_hatsan_mod125-177/
The Vortex air spring CAN be rebuilt with new o-rings. A cheap hand pump and Hatsan probe will "air them back up" and they may stay strong for years. I'm up to 5 failed Vortex air springs in my "repair someday" parts bin. I'm a big Hatsan fan... but no longer have any love for their Vortex air spring.
Once these coil spring rifles have a PROPER length PROPERLY fitted spring guide they shoot as smooth as the Vortex air spring versions. I see NO BENEFIT at all from using the Vortex and only the liability of having a LIMP rifle when I need one to dispatch a home/garage invading pest.
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so, which is more difficult? Converting to coil spring or replacing gas piston o-rings? My handtools consists of wrenches, screwdrivers, hand drill, hammer, circular saw and I don't have an air pump.
I just bought a new gas piston for my .25 135 and its now pushing ftt's at 590fps with that brand new gas piston. I also bought a new gas piston for my .25 Edge and its pushing the same pellets at 550fps with its new gas piston.
So, obviously the brand new, straight from HATSANUSA gas piston isn't at full power and I can't fix it. I don't even have the time and energy to try to send it back to them.
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so, which is more difficult? Converting to coil spring or replacing gas piston o-rings? My handtools consists of wrenches, screwdrivers, hand drill, hammer, circular saw and I don't have an air pump.
I just bought a new gas piston for my .25 135 and its now pushing ftt's at 590fps with that brand new gas piston. I also bought a new gas piston for my .25 Edge and its pushing the same pellets at 550fps with its new gas piston.
So, obviously the brand new, straight from HATSANUSA gas piston isn't at full power and I can't fix it. I don't even have the time and energy to try to send it back to them.
You pose an interesting and somewhat complicated query.
The beautiful thing about resealing the 135 gas spring is that, if you have the means to precharge the spring, you can rebuild without a spring compressor.
The gun can be reassembled and charged after assembly.
You obviously have a spring compressor as you just installed a fresh gas spring in another rifle.
The process of resealing a Vortex gas spring is really not that difficult, but, without means to charge it up, the point be moot......
You either gotta send out for reseal/recharge or convert to coil spring...
As for the new replacement Vortex units, I would contact Hatsan about them............
Hopefully your piston seals are good.
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so, which is more difficult? Converting to coil spring or replacing gas piston o-rings? My handtools consists of wrenches, screwdrivers, hand drill, hammer, circular saw and I don't have an air pump.
I just bought a new gas piston for my .25 135 and its now pushing ftt's at 590fps with that brand new gas piston. I also bought a new gas piston for my .25 Edge and its pushing the same pellets at 550fps with its new gas piston.
So, obviously the brand new, straight from HATSANUSA gas piston isn't at full power and I can't fix it. I don't even have the time and energy to try to send it back to them.
Moss---Are you SURE its not the piston seal itself (not the Vortex ram)? Those fps numbers are really low for these rifles. I guess if you really want to find out, get yourself (or find someone that already HAS these items if possible...) a Hatsan fill probe and a hand pump. Once the barreled action is out of the stock, you can then easily check and increase the "precharge" pressures (if need be) in those Vortex units that way. Ronno6 has done this, check out his work in these pages. As an aside, he has said that the process to rebuild these Vortex rams is "not that difficult". Not too sure about that statement...MAYBE after you've done a few.. ;) ;D
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The beautiful thing about resealing the 135 gas spring is that, if you have the means to precharge the spring, you can rebuild without a spring compressor.
The gun can be reassembled and charged after assembly.
That is very interesting. As much as I've had my guns apart and reassembled, I never thought about that.
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So, does anyone have any links to information on how to reseal/revive a vortex gas ram? I've been looking but coming up empty
I'd like to see if I can revive the gas rams that died on me. I figure I can't hurt them if they're already dead.
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I'm sure we've covered it on here somewhere........
If not, I can talk you thru it.......
Is the Vortex air spring out of the rifle?
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i believe the 135 has the same Type 2 gas spring as the Mod. 95.
At least it has the same breech block end on the Vortex.
I think that the parts to convert the 95 to spring are available.
It is possible that the 135 has a longer stroke than the 95...can't remember...
If so, it would require a longer spring and spring guide.
Check this out: https://hatsanairgunsusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Mod135QE-Exploded_View-April2015.pdf
Do you have a spring compressor??
Ronno, I'm pretty sure that, by now (3/22), you know the 95 Vortex has a "Type 1" gas spring...Right? Just sayin' ;D
I have resealed several Hatsan Vortex springs. I just did a Mod. 135.
The O-rings that I have replaced in every Vortex gas spring were brittle and crumbled when I removed them.
I replace w/new 90 durometer O-rings that should last for years, especially if stored muzzle down so that the silicone oil pools at the rod gland.
Just my $.02........
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I know that somewhere there is a comparison chart for the Vortex air springs......
Wherever it is, it ain't in my head.........
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Vortex list is on the Turkish website. Can't supply direct link until i get home.
The stroke length for Edge & Mod 95 are the same. Tube & piston-seal diameter are also the same so Vortex models for those rifles have the same stoke length.
Stroke length for Mod123/135 is longer so those model Vortex air springs will be different from the Edge/Mod95 models.
Mod135 tube diameter is 30mm verses Mod125 diameter of 29mm. The extra swept volume allows more spring energy to transfer to larger bore pellets. That is why Hatsan makes a 30 cal version of the 135 but stops at 25 cal for the Mod125.
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https://hatsan.com.tr/vortex-gaz-piston-en/
OK, mikeyb.....................you are frying my brain again.........
If the ROD diameter is the same, how does a larger cylinder develop more force?
WOW.. it's a conundrum wrapped inside an enigma inside a puzzle............
????????????
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Long answer...
The COIL springs in the Mod125 and Mod135 I have are IDENTICAL... SAME coil spring.
The FPE ratings (from Hastan) on the Mod125 are the same as the FPE ratings on the Mod135.
The swept volume of air is important as an energy transfer medium from spring to piston to air to pellet.
The difference between the Mod125 and Mod135 is the Mod135 piston mass is slightly larger and the swept air volume is slightly larger.
This makes little or no difference in calibers (& bore volumes) 177, 22, and 25.
When the Mod125 air volume expands into the larger bore volume of a 30 cal barrel the force on the pellet drops off too quickly.
The extra volume present in the Mod135 (and likely the added piston mass) transfers a little more of the spring energy to the larger pellet.
This gives the 30 cal pellet acceptable velocity/energy when launched by the Mod135 engine.
I don't think Hastan planned this from day-one as I don't think they ever planned to make a "carnivore" springer.
I believe they tested the Mod135 power plant in 30 cal and found it was just large enough to work well.
Behold... the 30 cal springer is born!
Next up... Hatsan develops their Vortex air spring as a coil spring upgrade.
Hastan's own website says it is the SAME Vortex in the Mod125 and Mod135.
Now Hatsan has an option to change the FACTORY pressure between the Mod125 and Mod135 Vortex air springs.
I do not know if they change factory pressure or not, but I suspect the Vortex springs are identical like the coil spring models I have.
The larger piston mass and swept volume of the Mod135 are really all that is needed to make the "carnivore" 30 cal work.
Hope that answers the question :-)
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OK...I got Vortex on the brain.........not coil.........
Been that kinda day........