GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Big Bore AirGun Gate => Topic started by: Fado71 on January 04, 2024, 12:50:51 PM
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I am new here and this is my first post.
I was inspired to share some photos and info on my gun by Nervoustrigger as he has a good post about his M25 but dont want to hijack his thread with my questions and thought it could help have some more info about this gun available for others in a separate post.
I started reading about tuning pcp rifles and learning about common issues before buying my gun and i think i might have an issue with my barrel but would really appreciate some input from you guys who have much more experience in this than i do.
I have only had it about 3 weeks and have had a hard time sighting it in, i just bought a chrono so i can check velocity etc as contributing factor or not.
After shooting just over a tin of Snowpeak domed 81grain pellets i'm getting about 825FPS, which i think is a little low.. Still getting terrible 5 inch grouping and fliers
sighting in at 50 meters from a table.
I couldnt find any decent feedback on these pellets but read a hint they might not be that good in Nervoustrigger's post, wish mine would group like his same pellets did.
Can you guys give me any feedback on them please...
I have read about barrel issues on various makes of guns but not much on the M25 .35 and found again Nervoustrigger's post to be about the first showing this barrel and some defects...and am looking forward to see what he does with his.... so i have taken my barrel off to inspect.
I think my crown has already been worked after seeing other pics in that post, I have not touched mine and as you can see it is bare metal on the crown and looks different to the others in those photos. I can see some marks on the lands and would love some feedback on this.
I can take some more photos to see if i can get some clearer pics.
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Here are some pellets i have pushed down the barrel.
Some show the mark inside the skirt from me pushing them into the leade because of the force needed... 3rd pic.
When using the gun it does not feel this tight but by hand using a plastic pen casing it is very tight but once the pellet is just fully in the barrel it is very snug rather than very tight and then opens up after an inch or so.
Seems to be a few rough spots on the way down and as i have said it feels choked over last few inches and is nowhere near as tight as the leade.
Do any of you with an M25 barrel have this issue?
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There does seem to be damaged lands just inside the muzzle.
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Two things, The tight lead is swaging down the pellets making them a loose fit in the rest of the barrel. I would lap the lead, or bore it out past the tight spot. Then push some pellets through to see if the fit feels uniform going through the barrel.
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There does seem to be damaged lands just inside the muzzle.
Going to try and getting sharper pics tomorrow. Thanks for confirming
Now what to do about it :-\
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Two things, The tight lead is swaging down the pellets making them a loose fit in the rest of the barrel. I would lap the lead, or bore it out past the tight spot. Then push some pellets through to see if the fit feels uniform going through the barrel.
Thanks for the input!
I was sat here looking at my (terrible) pics and thinking about it and came to the same conclusion, appreciate the confirmation.
A little shocked about the lands and hope i dont have to cut and re-crown it as i need the threads for the air stripper and moderator.
I am re-reading the very good ' barrel troubleshooting' post now.
Will take some better pics before any work tomorrow and then try as you have suggested and hope i can also get a better view of the lands.
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I polished my barrel following along with Jason's guidelines he laid out in the thread. My crown was a mess when I got it as well. I would buy some different pellets. Jsb and fx. I've learned the hard way that most airguns don't care much for cheap ammo lol. I shoot the fx hybrids in mine. Here is a couple pics of my last outing. That was at 50 yards shooting off the trunk of my car and the m25 was on a bipod.
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Thanks Bear air.
I wish i could get groups similar to yours!
I looked through your posts but only found your replies in posts about your barrel, do you have a photo of your damaged crown, gives me some hope polishing it might help as where i am in Spain there is nobody to do this work. Jason has done some great posts and read them all.
Today or tomorrow i will get some better pics of my crown and give it a polish.
Thanks for commenting
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Alex, how deeply does the damage extend? As long as you can retain enough of the threading to get at least a couple of turns of engagement with the muzzle adapter, that is plenty. In which case the fix is well within the realm of hand tools. Hacksaw off the damaged portion. Use a file and machinist’s square to square off the end (use magnification to get a good look as you sneak up on it). Then finish by applying a beveled crown with a round-head screw and abrasive.
For example on mine the damage only went down a little over 1/4" (6mm) or so. There was plenty of threading left once the offending portion was removed.
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Hi Jason,
i struggled to get some better pics yesterday, only got a couple of clear ones.
I will look to see how far the damage goes inside later today, i have read your posts and pdf on cutting the crown.... some great info there!
Assuming/hoping/praying :-X after cutting the threads and if leaving me enough crown threads left am i right in thinking i would have to cut down the muzzle adapter the same amount removed from the crown and also the barrel shroud.
If all this should work out i would be interested in knowing how you came to work out how you needed to cut your spring. I understand how it is done with an adjustable HSpring, starting with it out and then winding it in until you see the knee but how did you know without being able to adjust the HS and chart the curve.
Ive been thinking about it with my little knowledge and cant think how you knew to cut the spring as you didnt mention you made any test shots or graph anything.
I will check the damage later after i have milked 40 goats.
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Scratch my comment about cutting muzzle adapter, i hadn't had my second coffee and the brain box wasn't working.... silly question.
I seem unable to edit or delete my last posts so added this here.
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If all this should work out i would be interested in knowing how you came to work out how you needed to cut your spring. I understand how it is done with an adjustable HSpring, starting with it out and then winding it in until you see the knee but how did you know without being able to adjust the HS and chart the curve.
Well, I had a pretty good idea it was operating way up on the plateau based on the muzzle report (a whooshing sound of air leaving the barrel) and the terrible efficiency. So I decided to go ahead and cut a little off of the spring. Back the chronograph and the velocity hadn't changed. So I continued shortening it until the velocity just began to fall, taking it from 830fps down to 805-810fps.
The result was 33% less air use but retaining 95% of the energy.
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Very minimal fpe loss presuming you were using 82 gr pellets.
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So I continued shortening it until the velocity just began to fall, taking it from 830fps down to 805-810fps.
The result was 33% less air use but retaining 95% of the energy.
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That's good to know, and mine seems very loud also.
I dont know if you read my idea on installing a HS adjuster into the cap using a thin headed bolt.
(I was thinking of drilling out the back of the hammer to compensate for the head of the bolt that would be behind the spring inside the cap but would then add even more unwanted spring pressure, that was assuming i would not cut the spring, but now you have cut the spring with good results i think i would no longer need to drill the hammer which i didnt want to do as it would lighten it.)
Do you think installing an adjuster would be a worthwhile addition and feasible?
My only concern after drilling and taping for the bolt threads would be if the alloy cap would hold up under the spring pressure and not bust out the newly tapped threads but it seems reasonably thick allowing for enough threads.
Back to my work at hand.
So i spent a little time yesterday on the barrel clamped in a wood backed vice, being very careful to take each step slowly and pushing plenty of pellets to check progress with a wooden dowel... less is more attitude.
I started and worked a little on the leade as it seems extremely tight!!... when using the gun normally, with the bolt, i dont notice this tightness.
What ever i use to push the pellet in, making sure my push tool, 4/5mm drill bit using the dull end, sits inside the pellet and not touching and flaring the skirt, i have to push so hard my push tool starts to hurt the palm of my hand!
It is still tight, like above, after a few minutes of light work with the sandpaper on a dowel method, using 500 grit paper and then some work with a shoe lace with a snug fitting patch covered in autosol.
How tight should the resistance be by hand pushing a pellet into the leade?
The first pics shows some pellets after this work and i have pushed into the leade 3 inches and then pushed back out in reverse to check the pellet.... it seems to be marking the whole circumference of the dome still but now with less smearing of the dome so i am doing something right but it is the tightness that still concerns me.
The leade seems tight for about 3-4 inches before opening up to a good feeling resistance.
The barrel has a few tight spots on the way down but i will work on that after i get the leade about right.
I hope my pics are clear enough as i cant seem to get a truly clear pic even with macro and lighting.
The last photo is; left pellet before any work, this was pushed out of the muzzle end, right pellet after work and pushing into leade and back out.
I just dont want to go too far with this leade work and ruin the barrel beyond any factory defects it has.
I have read all Jason's (and others) articles on this subject and learnt a lot, im just finding this resistance in the leade a bit much, by hand. but wanted to thank those of you for your replies to such a new member with so many questions. 8)
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The lead is still to tight. You don't want it swaging the pellets down, you can see from the flattening of the circumference of the pellet head. You only want to see very light rifling marks, no flattening.
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What do some of you guys think about just drilling the ID of that barrel out down to the messed up rifling and not chopping the barrel at all? I have a Made for Crosman by Mendoza that I know for a fact is stock factory that had been drill to (I assume) remove some bad rifling and it shoots just as good as the other twin gun that was not drilled. I know it's factory because I got the gun from the original owner.
You can see it here in a side by side picture.
That counter bore goes more than 1" deep.
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The lead is still to tight. You don't want it swaging the pellets down, you can see from the flattening of the circumference of the pellet head. You only want to see very light rifling marks, no flattening.
Got it, thanks James... so just the lightest of rifling marks, the poor finish of the pellets makes it hard for me to see the damage ::)
Gives me some hope as after a tin of pellets and getting 6 inch groups at 50mtrs i was pretty disappointed.
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Regarding the 3 - 4" portion near the breech, yes ideally you want to work it until it is no longer perceptible as a tight region. However if you are so fortunate that the bore becomes tight again right at the muzzle, then I would recommend stopping short of completely opening up the breech and re-test for accuracy. Reason being, using an abrasive on a dowel is preferentially removing the lands without doing much to the grooves, and it will produce something of bell mouth.
In other words it would be nice to be rid of any breech tightness, but it isn't strictly necessary so long as it snugs up again at the muzzle. However, in order to get an accurate assessment of tightness at the muzzle, the damaged portion first has to go. Otherwise its very easy for the pellet to drag on the damaged lands and be mistakenly perceived as tightness.
Having said all that, my guess is you won't be so fortunate--just as I wasn't--but I wanted to go ahead and step through it so you can adapt the ideas to your particular situation. That's about all I can think of at the moment except I want to pause here for a moment and tip my hat to you for your overall approach...how you dove in and investigated, found online resources to help you interpret your findings, and promptly rolled your sleeves up and got to work. That's awesome.
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Thanks for another very helpful reply Jason and the kind words , being able to read and gain info from articles is only because people like you go out of your way to write those articles, well written and full of the right info!...so the hat is also tipped back at you sir! 8)
I started reading about tuning and many other related posts a while before i actually bought my gun and could see nearly all guns would probably need shooting over a chrono to get them shooting efficiently and tune to best fps for pellet or slug weight and then came across posts about this subject of bad barrels produced by many makers and knew i had a lot to learn.
I read your articles and thought the 'work' was well within my scope but i can see it is also an 'art' in some ways with each and every barrel being different requiring different approaches, so i am taking my time with mine as once i go to far i have at best a shiny fire poker.
I was looking at my pellet photos last night, from first to last and looking at the effect on the pellets of the work done so far and i also could see that i would only be working down the lands with dowel and paper.
Would it be better but slower, which i am fine with, to use patches on a shoe lace and compound to carry on removing material, my thinking it would work both the grooves and lands?
I also think from my muzzle photos and going to measure this morning, that the damage to the lands go about half way down the length of the outer threaded portion and hope that will be enough threads to hold the AS.
I am also very lucky then, as my barrel does tighten up, almost as tight as the breech, at the choke, a good few inches back from the muzzle.
I will mark along the barrel on some tape where the tight spots are and post a pic shortly before i do any more work inside the barrel.
With some luck i might have cut the bad part of the muzzle off this morning but will see how things pan out.... again thanks for your post as i was going to work on removing more from the breech this morning 8)
My comment i made about removing some of the AS and shroud is not that incorrect...i dont think..... i noticed that when the AS is fitted my muzzle tip eclipses the AS holes, will post a pic shortly..... and if i remove some threads from the barrel the AS will bottom out as normal against the barrel but then the muzzle tip will be short of eclipsing the AS holes..... i am not sure if that is a good or bad thing,,,,, hence me thinking i might have to shave the same amount from the AS so it bottoms out and still has the eclipsing at the AS holes.
pics to come asap.
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Here are the pics i have just taken of the tight spots.
Pink areas are the tight spots.
The marks on the tape for lands to remove i had placed slightly further in than the actual damage.
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Pics with vernier calipers is the actual extent of the damage internally, maybe a few mm's more but will check once i actually cut the offending part off.
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And here is the AS showing the muzzle tip eclipsing the holes
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I didn't like that the air stripper holes were blocked by the barrel either. I'm enjoying your thread Fado. I appreciate you taking the time to post your efforts and results. It sure looks like your on your way to having a good shooter.
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I didn't like that the air stripper holes were blocked by the barrel either. I'm enjoying your thread Fado. I appreciate you taking the time to post your efforts and results. It sure looks like your on your way to having a good shooter.
I would think that the AS holes would not be covered by a muzzle tip on most guns but i dont have enough general gun knowledge to know for sure. Was yours the same, did you do anything to it?
I am having to cut my crown back and with some luck the right amount it should resolve this problem, 2 birds with one stone.
Glad to hear your enjoying the ride 8), I am happy to be able to leave the info for others who are likely to have similar problems, giving a little back for the great info i am receiving here from you guys.
Just a shame the barrel is in such bad shape right out the box but i am enjoying learning a new skill, so long as i dont ruin it in the process..... got all fingers crossed it does end up a decent shooter.
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Im not even sure what I could do with the stripper holes Alex. I did contemplate putting a dab of jb weld on that side of the hole and then use my Dremel to make them proper air stripper holes. Cutting your barrel should fix that small issue. I'm a sucker for a cheap airgun lol. Plus I really enjoy learning from the guys here like Jason and so many others. For under $300 to my door I've actually been keeping an eye out to see if they are back in stock lol.
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There is a shroud right? If there is a shroud the AS might not bottom out on the threads leaving the AS holes clear of the barrel end.
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Would it be better but slower, which I am fine with, to use patches on a shoe lace and compound to carry on removing material, my thinking it would work both the grooves and lands.
That’s the right idea, and yes I think it would be better in that respect. However my concern is that the word slower will not do it justice :)
The preferred approach would be a cast lap and start with a rather coarse abrasive in the neighborhood of 120 – 180 grit. If memory serves, it took me about 2 hours of intense lapping effort on my barrel to work out the tight region. How long would it take to remove a comparable amount of material with a fine abrasive on a compressible patch? Wild guess…10 hours?
Might be worth acknowledging that it would certainly soften the profile of the lands along the way, but as compared to a dowel wrapped with sandpaper which will ultimately remove the lands altogether, it’s still a better approach in my opinion.
I am also very lucky then, as my barrel does tighten up, almost as tight as the breech, at the choke, a good few inches back from the muzzle. I will mark along the barrel on some tape…
Once you have the damaged rifling removed, please check it again and advise if the tightness remains constant all the way until the head of the pellet is right at the point of popping out into the world. If so, that’s very fortuitous. My guess is you’ll probably detect a little relaxation right at the end because the bore of a button-rifled barrel tends to open up slightly when the OD is turned down for threading.
Regarding the air stripper, I agree that it is preferable for the radial holes to be unobstructed. So shortening up the threaded portion to get rid of the damaged lands is beneficial here as well. Though in a scenario like this where groups are multiple inches at 50yds, I don’t expect it is a major contributing factor. Which reminds me, I strongly recommend you get your hands on some of the JSB or FX domes if you haven’t already. Because even if you turn in the most amazing smithing effort of all time, you may not be able to recognize it if all you have for testing are the Snowpeak domes.
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+1 on the jsb' & fx pellets.
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The deed has been done!
I have cut the crown back, i cut it back an extra two threads more than my last pics showed with the vernier's.
Gave it a quick bevel with a fine conical stone i had that fits in my drill, added autosol paste to lessen the stones cut and no pressure pressing down on the crown, finished with a coach bolt and more compound.
I only used autosol and mixed it with a little autobody coarse clear coat polishing paste for the coach bolt work as i can not find my valve grinding pastes anywhere.
Crown is perfectly 90deg from outer barrel edge.
Only thing is i think i can see one land still with some marking :( ..
I noticed this before i beveled the crown, I thought i would do it as a practice in case i have to cut again and wont get a second chance to mess up and have to cut even more off those threads, think i could bevel a little more but was fairly happy with the result of the bevel, better than the burnt and gouged original anyway, it's a long way from being called finished.
Jason,
As i have some more barrel work to do i wondered, and here is my lack of experience showing, so going to ask anyway :D.
Will the needed barrel work (if i cast a lap) 'help' correct that last land imperfection at all, keeping well clear of the crown edge, it looks like the least damaged land that i had.
I guess the only real way to know is try shooting it but want to get the barrel polishing/lapping further along before i test and hand pump, still waiting on a compressor to come.
Or is more hacksaw the only way at this point?
I know you cut off more off your barrel but I am worried to take any more off and the AS be lose or not sit in a good alignment, i know you said a few good turns would hold it but it worries me as like i say, im new to this, not doubting you in anyway!
As for muzzle tightness, before any cutting i could feel the pellet loosen a little just at the start of the AS threads just like you described, less so than the choke.
(my 'tight' marks i put on the tape/barrel were as accurate as i could get them)
Obviously i would like to get the barrel shooting as well as can be expected for the price.
But this is for dealing with the wild hogs that destroy my farm every night.... max distance 50 meters, this isn't for field target shooting although i am a believer if your gonna shoot something then it should be done so it doesn't suffer and achieve and instant lights out.
As the pellets go, even back in my day spending a little more on pellets always paid off, i only got these to try the gun out and sight it in.
And mainly to see how 81grain punches from a modern pcp as the last air rifle i shot was a springer possible with 20flb's :P
Being as it is for hogs i will be looking at the JSB's and possibly some good solid slugs something like 120 grain later down the road.
I didn't think the AS eclipsing issue would effect the accuracy in anyway, i was more thinking it wasn't right and hope it might help reduce the report a little, happy to say after the cut the holes are now unrestricted.
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There is a shroud right? If there is a shroud the AS might not bottom out on the threads leaving the AS holes clear of the barrel end.
Good Point, i will measure that before i cut anymore off the crown but i think it runs up flush by some marks left on the AS base.... appreciate the input!
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No problem... worse case would be to cut a bit off the shroud. I would have a close look and see if I could catch enough threads and clear the stripper holes in the AS.
I wonder if you could screw the AS onto the barrel just enough to keep the AS holes clear then take the measurement for the shroud.
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Nice work Alex. That barrel looks great. I think your going to be happy once the compressor and new pellets come. I've seen a great deal of improvement since I went through the process. Excited to see how it does and how it well it dispatches the little menaces.
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Today i have bought some supplies to make a handle for a cast lap.
But after searching the internet i cant find anything on where to cast the lap inside the barrel to get a good sized lap, maybe over thinking it with some saying to tap the end of the lead lap occasionally to make it swell and carry on lapping. Maybe i am over thinking it but the last thing i want to do is ruin the barrel.
My breech is the tightest part of my barrel so wonder should i cast it there or at the muzzle end ? :-\
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A muzzle pour that is 3” to 4” long is pretty much always a good choice.
The option to do a breech pour is only viable if you’re working with an unmachined blank, else the lap will get stuck in the leade and/or barrel port. And only useful if it’s an unchoked blank because otherwise the lap will not be able to get into the constricted region (as contrasted to a muzzle pour which is long enough to occupy both regions).
There is no scenario I am aware of where a mid-range pour would be advantageous. Not to mention the challenge of getting it to fill out well.
Start by making sure the bore is clean and dry (no oil), and preheat the muzzle with a heat gun or propane torch to help obtain a well filled out casting. I prefer a heat gun because there’s no way to overdo it…and to whatever extent it is slower is of no consequence because I have it going while I’m getting set up for the pour.
By the way, I no longer bother with occasionally compressing the lap to expand it. When lapping with an abrasive coarse enough to perform any useful surface leveling, the particles occupy the infinitesimal gaps between the lap and bore where they perform the desired scrubbing action.
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A little update on the lead lapping progress.
With only one gun shop close by and they only had cleaning kits for rifles and shotguns the only thing i could get my hands on today to make a rod was some wooden dowel and some 4mm threaded rod.
With the lack of any decently stocked shops around me i also bought some 'fine' valve lapping compound.
I had read conflicting reviews on it's use, some say ok some say *(&^ no it will inbed itself.
In the UK i owned a large bodyshop and garage for most of my life and i have re-built hundreds of classic and modern engines and probably hand lapped a thousand valves and seats.
I know we are talking totally different materials here but to get a valve to seat and on some old classics if they dont seal 100% the old girl wont fire up, in order to get that perfect seal the faces must be free of any imperfections so my take (and in the gun world i am probably wrong and just made that shiny fire poker out of my barrel) is that even if some does inbed it will have been smoothed off by the other broken down compound and the lap. and I only used only a very fine smear.
Please feel free to tell me i just made a new fire poker :-\
I chose to use the threaded rod as the threads will grab the lead better and thought the dowel might char anyway.
I sleeved the threaded rod with some fine rubber hose, like used in aquariums to prevent metal to metal contact and it actually worked pretty well, also with a good gap between it and barrel so as not to do any lapping with any compound stuck to the tubing.
Using an old pellet tin lid bent to form a spout as the wife wasn't happy i was looking in the spoon draw ;D
I used a gas torch to melt down some of the first pellets i slugged when i started this and used those to pour a 2" lap, keeping the tip of the rod 1/4" in from the end of the lap to prevent scratching.
I'm not sure it looks like the lap has taken a good form when poured? the lands dont look very defined to me.
Partly pushed it out of the muzzle and cut a shallow grove around it to hold some compound.
I only used a very fine smear of the valve paste on each run.
It worked well with very little flex from the rod even passing the tight spots and with a light grip on the hose covered rod it rotated very well in the rifling.
After about 10 strokes i ran a clean patch and cleaning solvent down to clean out residue and slugged the barrel to check progress.
Keeping away from the crown i did about 6 sessions like this and worked a little more on the breech area which is now better, a little snug up until about 4" from the
breech but stopped the lapping there.
Now pellets are coming out without smearing but leaving a rifling mark, think i might need to take more pics tomorrow of the pellets, my phone needs day light to get a good macro shot.
The lands at the muzzle also look to have cleaned up, i cant see the greyed out marks in my last pics anymore, again not great pics and I really cant see much by eye.
I have stopped early on my work today for a few reasons, 'less is more' i think is the right way to go for someone like me without having ever done this before and secondly in case you all come tell me i have left fine valve paste in-bedded in the barrel and would hope other compounds and shooting would sort that out anyway but it can't be worse than it was.... i hope!
Thanks for all the input so far, you have all helped me with your advice and experience.
I just hope i haven't made you all gasp at your screens over the compound i used.
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Pellets from after the work.
One pic has a before and after comparison.
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A muzzle pour that is 3” to 4” long is pretty much always a good choice.
The option to do a breech pour is only viable if you’re working with an unmachined blank, else the lap will get stuck in the leade and/or barrel port. And only useful if it’s an unchoked blank because otherwise the lap will not be able to get into the constricted region (as contrasted to a muzzle pour which is long enough to occupy both regions).
Start by making sure the bore is clean and dry (no oil), and preheat the muzzle with a heat gun or propane torch to help obtain a well filled out casting. I prefer a heat gun because there’s no way to overdo it…and to whatever extent it is slower is of no consequence because I have it going while I’m getting set up for the pour.
By the way, I no longer bother with occasionally compressing the lap to expand it. When lapping with an abrasive coarse enough to perform any useful surface leveling, the particles occupy the infinitesimal gaps between the lap and bore where they perform the desired scrubbing action.
Was just making my last post when you posted.
I'm not sure i got the barrel warm enough, i think my lap looked a little 'dull' and clearly a little short, do you think it is worth pouring a new one tomorrow and giving a few more laps, i have just posted pics of results so far.
From breech for about 4" it is now snug not tight, then loosens a little and the ridges have calmed down, then about 4" from the muzzle it tightens again, breech and muzzle feeling more even in the snug feeling.
The lands seem to have cleared up but i will take some clearer pics tomorrow and if any different will post them for reference
Thanks again for taking the time to reply to my posts Jason and to others who have commented, you could have left me to Jason's and the Internet's articles without spending the time to give out such helpful words of wisdom.
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Very cool…I like your ingenuity with the threaded rod and tubing. Regarding the poured lap, it does indeed appear that it may not have filled out well. Granted it’s kinda tricky to tell even in person after it has been used, let alone in a photo. What I would say is it should be nice and shiny with distinct features when you inspect it shortly after pouring.
To your question, yes I agree it’s probably a good idea to pour a fresh one and do another run and go ahead and spend a little more time working the tight region near the breech end. By the time you feel some improvement there, the abrasive will have broken down a bit and you can do a few passes further down to gauge things. And based on how it feels, decide how much or how little scrubbing you want to do there. If you are still seeing some land damage, you can make a judgement call on how far to carry it.
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I’ve been following along. Jason always gives great advice in these matters. Good on you for following through with this project, it looks like you are making good progress. The only thing I might add is if you decide to do another run, make sure you get the good fill out of the lap that was discussed.
Thanks for sharing your project with us and documenting it well.
Dave
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See Alex? I told you not to give up on this thread.
The GTA is a great place to be and that's because of it's members. ;)
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I poured a new lap the other evening, heating the barrel until too hot to touch by hand but cautious not to over heat it.
The lap was bright silver in colour but sill not really seeing the lands clearly defined, sorry forgot to take a picture, so i only worked a little on the breech end and have called it quits at this point.
As soon as the constant rain leaves i will try shooting it, fingers crossed i see some improvement in accuracy.
I will post again when i have shot it and then if all being well i shall work on the hammer spring.
So thanks again for the all the input you have all really helped me in this process. 8)
I got plenty of night time visitors to a new area where i have built a raised hide.
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I own also a M25 9MM.
Noticed that the groups are better without the bipod, just use a sandbag.
Without the silencer gives also better results.
Use the JSB pellets. I still have some flyers sometimes.
Here a 5 shot 50 meter group.
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Also modified the bold linkage. It is originally to weak for the 9MM.
Added an additional one.
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Some more 5 shot 50 meter groups.
Also added a regulator pressire gsuge
Removed the silencer and shortened the airtube
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I own also a M25 9MM.
Noticed that the groups are better without the bipod, just use a sandbag.
Without the silencer gives also better results.
Use the JSB pellets. I still have some flyers sometimes.
Here a 5 shot 50 meter group.
Thanks for your reply Keesbo.
I have seen your work on another site, i really like the regulator gauge you fitted and if i can get mine to shoot groups as well as yours i will look at fitting another gauge.
I am also going to look at the bolt, the bolt hitting you in the face does not sound good!
My gun also has a tripod and think that could be making my groups open up, i have now made a sand bag to rest on but i have a lot of heavy rain here so at the moment sighting it in is going to have to wait.
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Have you had a chance to shoot it yet? I've been dieing to hear and see how the work improved your groups.
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Have you had a chance to shoot it yet? I've been dieing to hear and see how the work improved your groups.
No i havent, i have new goats being born everyday and i just havent had 5 minutes to myself.
I am still also waiting for my compressor to arrive, as soon as i have some time i will post results, i am dying to know if it has improved things or not.
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Thanks for the update Alex.
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Hi to everybody,
i am finally back, it has been about 8 months or so and i have had some time to get back fixing this gun.
I bet most of you thought you would never hear from me again and i dont blame you but i have been back in the UK to restore and old Mercedes 250sl and then returned but it is fire season and way too hot to pump up this gun, 50+ degrees means escaping the heat.
So sorry for the massive delay but i will see this through 'till the end and will share all of it here.
I ordered a compressor but it never arrived and took ages to get my money back and as that never arrived i did not bother to order any JSB or other better pellets.
But i think the work i did on the barrel has made an improvement!!
Obviously i had to sight it in again, this time when adjusting the scope i could see the next pellet land in the direction of adjustment, getting closer to POA.
First pic is of my 3rd mag of 6 shots, first two mags were used getting pellets on paper so wont show those, distance is 51 yards.
I got 3-4 shots grouped pretty well and then a flyer or two but then i am still using the snowpeak pellets ::) but this is a huge improvement on accuracy before the work on the barrel.
So happy to finally get some time to check out the work done.
Normally shots would land in random areas and not react to any scope adjustment which i am seeing now after the work!
I started on first photo target, 51yrds but the wind blew my cardboard over so i decided to try a target i set at 31yrds, left pic of two targets, because that is exactly the distance my hide is from my feed site.
I took 6 shots as air went down and didnt want to pump again but you can see i had one flyer but the other 4 were in a decent enough group for my needs on a wild hog at 30 yards but i am still a long way away from trying that yet, i need to confirm this is consistent and try improving the accuracy and new ammo before i try a hog.
Right pic of two targets, second go at 31yrds, i am still getting used to finding a good hold on the gun.
Post-it note, was one shot at my feed sight, set at same distance as the wild pigs feed.
one thing to mention is i have removed the bipod and have made some sand bags and, it not only feels better but also helping with accuracy....... the more i shoot the more accurate i am getting so maybe the rest is down to me..... a few more mags will tell.
I have now made an adapter for my chrono to sleeve over the barrel.
I made some tests, before any barrel work in my shed and here is a string starting at 210bar.
210Bar
821-fps
817
811.1
785.3
818.3
803.6
789.4
781.8
769.3
754.4 ending with 150Bar
The gun seems excessively loud, i am not really hearing a whooshing sound just a very loud gun :D..... wife says it sound like an air powered nailer.
Like others i am down to only 4 sections of the moderator because of any possible clipping throwing off my sighting in.
Those of you that have drilled out the hole, how much did you drill it out to?... mine is reading 10.68 - 11mm as original.
Would the excessive air cause me problems with accuracy? or is noise and wasted air about the only negative.
Jason i have checked your thread and not seen any updates, how did yours come out in the end,did you improve on your grouping you weren't happy with?
So i get to the point i am fairly happy at 31yrds and my trail camera show a group of 14 pigs on my feed sight for several days.....
i set up in my hide at 8pm and they didnt turn up, so i go lay down and wait for my phone to tell me they are there via my trail cam well i woke up at 11pm, i could hear some sirens, sirens of fire truck and then could smell thick smoke, looked out the hide and could see a big red glow..... then my wife called a big fire coming our way!!
I run home and get our fire defences going, then when we realized it was probably going to hit our farm we went in and recovered my trail cameras.
I can post the video if anyone wants to see it, but at about 4 AM the pigs are there, a fire 50 meters away from them, fire trucks and noise all over and they are there eating away like nothing is happening, hot embers dropping all around them without a care!...... at one point my son in law and I are coming in to collect the cameras shouting which way to go and they dont leave until we are 20 meters away from them!.............. other nights you break a stick and they are gone ::) ;D
Thankfully we stopped the fire right on our boundary and didnt lose land our my new hide i built.
so a few more days delay in writing here as going around checking and wetting hot spots so we didnt get any flare ups.
Sorry the post is a bit random but a lot gone on since i was last here.
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I hope i am ok to post a YT link........ here are the pigs eating while a big fire burns 50 meters from them and dropping embers all around them.
The light behind the trees is the flames.
The picture is my view that evening before i had to leave..... next time piggy
https://youtu.be/-XX9g3OvP5g
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Nobody got any comments, i was pretty happy with the results shown on my first targets.
Since then 2 shots on one night, two pigs down, 2 days later 3 shots and 3 pigs down, all dropped like a stone....... so 5 pellets - 5 pigs all at around 35 yards with the snowpeak pellets and a Oneleaf NV100 clip on night vision one of them was a large sow.
I was hoping to do some more work on the gun and keep posting it here but seems there is no interest now with no comments, still i appreciate all the help i did receive.
I wanted to ask peoples opinions of heavier slugs as it seems JSB exacts are good but only 81grain and from wanting to be ethical i wanted to use some heavier lead.
Now the new ZAN's look good and have great feedback but wondered if going to hand loading the longer heavier slugs, over 80grain would be worth it, anyone tried heavy slugs in this gun?
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I've used 100+ grain slugs. IIRC, just some 9mm reloads I ran through my swaging tool. The swager came with my ShinSung 9mm lever action PCP; just so happens to be the perfect size for the M-25, too. The slugs were an assortment a neighbor gave me; I think 107 grain and some 120s, but don't quote me on that ( I weighed them so they may underweight 110s?). Either way, the slugs put nice holes in what you aim at and they land where you aim. We've been too busy to do any shooting over 80 yards, but at 80 yards, the M-25 will put a smile on your face.
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Hi Antisquirrel.
I have only been shooting to 50 yards max so far while i fixed the barrel defects and doubt i will use it beyond 70 yards max.
My thoughts on slugs was to have better stopping knock down power although these domes had no problem, the large sow i took between the eyes, i checked entry wound which was pretty big, passed through the back of skull and pellet was found half way down her neck.
I hear good and bad things about slugs and accuracy, i think i am now happy the gun has more than enough power for my problem pigs but accuracy is everything no matter what we use, how did you find the slugs accuracy? im assuming you have an M25?
I can find ZAN slugs but are hollow point and cant help but think they might deform too much on impact and not have so much penetration if a shot is slightly off mark.
The only other slugs Krale stock are hunters supply which look pretty rough in the photos but have solid points, then NSA which dont "look" great, no dish in the base and an unstable "looking" short slug.
Then it leaves the limited choice of pellets,, the JSB exacts which i hear good things on accuracy but i really would like to use the guns potential and use something heavier.
I cant find any info on the barrel and twist rate, wether it likes slugs or not and not found much about the M25 using slugs and accuracy so still have a lot to learn and understand as i really dont have the cash to keep spending on slugs just to try and hope they will work well.
This week is forecast lots of rain so i will be in my shed and working on the hammer spring and getting the gun tuned and also looking at fixing the bolt issue as dont like the sound of that hitting me in the face.
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Alex, nice work with the M25 on those hogs! Thanks for the write up and pictures.
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I only used the ZAB 80Gr slugs, and they performed very bad.
Just keep on shooting the JSB .35 at 50 meters.
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Thanks Jason, All the help you gave me is what made all of them drop like a stone8), i have replied to you on your thread
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I only used the ZAB 80Gr slugs, and they performed very bad.
Just keep on shooting the JSB .35 at 50 meters.
Thanks for the information Keesbo, for me priority is accuracy so yes i think i will stay with the JSB's
Can i ask, where can i find the thread of yours yours i think you mentioned about where you showed all the work you did to the M25, i have seen the photos here but no in-depth explanation of what you did, if there is one.
I want to start some work on my gun, fixing the bolt is my first priority but dont think i am able to do the masterful work you did, i just dont have that sort of machinery.
Any input would be gratefully received.
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Hy
Here is my story about the M25 .35 on a Dutch Forum in the Artemis/Snowpeak tread.
https://www.luchtbuks.net/index.php?/topic/128344-het-grote-artemis-knutselprojecten-topic/page__st__990
You have to read some pages. ;)
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Awesome pesting Alex. That one hog looks to be a pretty good sized pig. Please post your shot string numbers, so far I have only shot mine as it came from the factory. And haven't taken the time to chrony it and get actual numbers. I thought it to be comparable to a 22 rimfire power level only in 357!. I have enjoyed mine and always read new threads and new posts on older threads when they pop up.
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Bear air, thanks buddy....
From what i have been reading a .22LR has similar power as the M25, 120/160 FPE, im getting 120 right now and is why i was looking at slugs... dont forget my feed site is 31 yrds and took the girl in the bucket at about 20, didn't weigh her but i had trouble dragging her 20 yards!
Another 100 fps and a 125 grain would give a considerable increase in FPE and with hogs and thick bone/gristle every little helps but an accurate 80 grain at 820-fps is more than sufficient i think up to 50 -60 yards on a brain shot..... but it has to hit the mark for a drop and clean kill.
Mine is factory settings, i have only worked the barrel because of the defects it had, i will post numbers as i go.
I wasnt too pleased with my initial 50 mtr groups after my work but also im still pretty new to the gun so that might have been something, but the grouping at 31yrds was more than tight enough for me to try a pig at the same range.
Can i post a video/s i have of my NV-scope on these pigs, not sure if it is allowed in this section?
Speaking of my statement above about what i have read about similar power of the M25 and a 22LR, are the grain weight's measured the same for live ammunition as for lead pellets/slugs.
Just the articles i read stated about a 40 grain slug/bullet in the 22LR giving the 120/160 FPE.... that would be half our grain weight and has me a little confused
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Keesbo,
Thanks for the link, i will read it with great interest, i hope you will keep an eye here and help guide me, the bolt security worries me a little and i know i cant achieve the same solution as you did.
Are you still enjoying the gun, has your grouping stayed good at 50 mtrs?
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Keesbo,
Thanks for the link, i will read it with great interest, i hope you will keep an eye here and help guide me, the bolt security worries me a little and i know i cant achieve the same solution as you did.
Are you still enjoying the gun, has your grouping stayed good at 50 mtrs?
Yep, still enjoy the rifle. Accuracy is good enough at 50 meters. Use the M25 about 2 times 50 shots a month.
I only used a drillpress and a Dremel machine.
Just good old handwork.
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Keesbo,
I have just translated your post and read it all, thank you for showing your work.
When i first saw your post without translating it i assumed in the photos it was a milling machine, not a simple drill press :D
It looks like you really improved the grouping and more so the FPS seems very stable between shots. Can i ask how did you polished the barrel at the leade end?
I removed my bipod also and now shooting from a sand bag and have also found it to shoot much more accurately but i am using 4 pieces of the silencer without any current issues but i will surely try it without.
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Alex you are correct in similar power levels between the two. However I have learned in the last five years actually the last three how devastating an energy dump is on game. My experience is with smaller game but I imagine it would be the same on medium to larger game as well caliber appropriate. I was impressed with how quiet mine is with only three baffles. Glad your enjoying it.
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I think that I used a big Brass screwhead and polish paste.
Barrel in the lathe and the screw in a cordless drill.
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Hi, i meant how did you polish it to such a shine where the pellet enters the barrel.
I could see you had removed burs but it also looked very shiny and highly polished, great looking work!
Thanks
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Hi, i meant how did you polish it to such a shine where the pellet enters the barrel.
I could see you had removed burs but it also looked very shiny and highly polished, great looking work!
Thanks
Ah, used sandpaper, 240-400-600-1000 grid.
And set the barrel in the lathe offcourse at 300 Rpm
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Just the articles i read stated about a 40 grain slug/bullet in the 22LR giving the 120/160 FPE.... that would be half our grain weight and has me a little confused
Speed makes the difference. 22LR is way faster.
My heavily tuned .25 M25 makes 144fpe with 45gr slug.
(https://img.aijaa.com/m/00890/15295325.jpg)