GTA
Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 and springers ,rams => Scopes And Optics Gate => Topic started by: RM on December 28, 2023, 05:45:34 PM
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I bought one of these version 2 mounts several years ago. I recently started using it. It is very tight and I cannot detect any wiggle visually. I have it mounted on a D54. I just noticed that it had 2 O-rings on the sliders but at the end that would never get any impact. I also detected that there was a metal to metal sound when the scope was moved from stop and returned to rest. I couldn't see how this was protecting the scope.
I just installed two thin O-rings on each post at the impact end. After some shooting it started making the sound again so installed one more O-ring on each end. After the last O-ring install I backed off the center set screw slightly as I wasn't sure how detrimental this conical screw was to keeping the moving mass centered. Is dampening the action correct or should I let it slam metal to metal?
Accuracy is good and currently I get one hole groups at 25 yrds when I do my part. I am just trying to save this scope from being sent in for another repair after being thrashed on the UTG DN T06 mount.
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Steven;
If you have the time, read these two articles:
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/a-high-speed-analysis-of-the-way-the-zr-mounts-work
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/march-14th-2016
The essence of the system is that the mount "floats" the scope while the shot/recoil cycle is going on. There is NO "dampening" per se. The mount just "floats" the scope/
The front cone is ONE of the points that define a plane where the scope sits; THREE points in space define a plane, the other two are the ends of the steel rails. If you prevent this cone from making solid contact, then the scope may not "register back to zero" as it should.
With usage you will see that the cone and the base "mate" themselves to each other. Which means that a ZR mount takes some time to "settle down", IMHE, about 200 shots.
The Orings are supposed to be at the back, and they are there to measure how much travel the moving section takes in YOUR gun.
Well tuned guns will back between 3/16" and 5/16" depending on the power level. If your piston is slamming, then the mount will recoil more than the 5/16"
Just move them manually forward before shooting a 5 shot string and register/measure after shooting. Note this measurement and when in doubt, re-measure again.
Scopes are DESIGNED for the recoil of firearms, means that shocks going backwards, usually are protected from. The end of the stroke is when some airguns recoil FORWARDS, and that is when the ZR mounts have the scope floating. SO the scope is isolated from the forward recoil and reaching the rearwards end will not hurt the scope.
The other aspect is that airguns vibrate a LOT, and those vibrations tend to loosen stuff everywhere, the inside of the scope included!
Once things are loose they will start breaking by bouncing around.
So, if you want to allow the mount to do what it was designed to do, then remove the "dampening" elements and let the scope go back on the impulse of the return spring in the mount that is just a fraction of the energy of the first, backwards, recoil of the rifle.
HTH, keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Steven, Hector is the unchallenged expert on these mounts. I had the metal to metal sound on my ZR mount, too. I disassembled my mount making careful note what parts went where. I then cleaned the rails and rubbed in a bit of molybdenum disulfide powder on each rail. The metal to metal sound disappeared on reassembly. Of course break in may achieve the same effect. By the way, the stop screw is not necessary as the gun is only recoiling against the low mass of the base mount not the mass of the scope.
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Thank you for the information.
I'll remove the O-rings I recently installed.
I was being overly cautious.
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I removed the O-rings I installed and after shooting about 100 pellets today the travel is right at 5/16 inch.
This rifle had a recent ARH breech seal replacement, VRT spring kit installed and Tesla piston seal replacement. FPS is 770's with ES of 11 FPS.
I'll get over the metal to metal sound. I actually only hear it when I manually move the scope and let it go. The conical screw head does have a bare metal wear mark now.
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The conical screw head does have a bare metal wear mark now.
That's good. It means things are "mating" to each other.
Keep us posted!
HM
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With the scope mounted and rifle on a steady rest I do notice some verticle movement of the crosshairs at 25 yards. This is observed by slightly pushing on the top rear of the scope while looking through it. Maybe 1/2" max of observable movement at 25 yards. This can explain why the rifle shot better groups with the solid mount.
I was thinking a couple set screws with nylon tips after drilling and tapping the mount over the two sliding rails. However finding nylon tipped set screws seemed to be an online only order. Even Ace Hardware let me down. I ended up tapping two holes with a 6-32 tap and dropping a very tiny sliver of nylon under a steel 6-32 set screw. That eliminated the vertical wobble as well as any observable horizontal movement. This also filled my afternoon with busy work. A few shots on a target was very promising.
One thing I found interesting was an O ring folded up inside the hole where the rebound spring sits. I left it out when I reassembled.
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;) I removed the $100 barrel tuner, $300 scope and $80 mount and re-installed the factory front sight after realizing I was getting too obsessed with accuracy from this magnum springer pellet rifle.
I have custom centerfire and rimfire rifles and pistols that do that job far far better without adding or subtracting an O-ring or two or installing set screws and hoping for the best. Or worrying about destroying a nice scope. ZR mount assigned to the spare parts bin for now.
It was fun while it lasted.
Iron sights at 34 yards was actually a blast from the past today, even wearing my crappy multi-focus glasses.
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Springers have a way of amplifying every mistake I ever made in marksmanship. With springers, when the shooting is good life is great and when the shooting is bad.. life is still great but the shooting I blame on my sights.
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Well said,
This D54 shoots very good. I am amazed at some of the groups.
After destroying one scope with a solid mount I tried the ZR mount. It is a little finicky due to design.
I really enjoy using a higher magnification scope. One benefit is not having to bring my spotting scope. Downside is that I can't afford a good compact one. The one I was recently using is 15" in length. Way to long on this rifle to get a good cheek weld, shoulder the rifle and get good eye relief at the same time. Not to mention having enough room to insert the pellet. The one I destroyed is almost the same size.
The stock 4X32 RWS scope is the perfect size with the solid mount. The very thick cross hairs not so good.
After purchasing a barrel tuner and spending much time experimenting I was seeing amazing groups. After I switched back and forth from iron sights I could never quite get the same accuracy again. Six set screws on a loose fit didn't help so I think. Tuner went in the spare parts bin with the ZR.
Iron sights: it took me quite a few shots and adjusting to get on center but I didn't give up. The final results were rewarding for an old man.
Original RWS 4X scope with solid mount will be my scope setup when I switch back. It shoots good enough with that.
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;) I removed the $100 barrel tuner, $300 scope and $80 mount and re-installed the factory front sight after realizing I was getting too obsessed with accuracy from this magnum springer pellet rifle.
I have custom centerfire and rimfire rifles and pistols that do that job far far better without adding or subtracting an O-ring or two or installing set screws and hoping for the best. Or worrying about destroying a nice scope. ZR mount assigned to the spare parts bin for now.
It was fun while it lasted.
Iron sights at 34 yards was actually a blast from the past today, even wearing my crappy multi-focus glasses.
Really? A well shot springer should be just as accurate as a decent PB'r at realistic ranges.
A well shot PCP will be MORE accurate than a PB'r at some unrealistic ranges.
-Y
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LOL
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I wish I had the money to get into PCP's now days. Being retired I'm stuck with what I got.
I'm sure any decent PCP could easily out shoot my little pea shooter at 600 yards with both eyes closed.
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600 yards????
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I wish I had the money to get into PCP's now days. Being retired I'm stuck with what I got.
I'm sure any decent PCP could easily out shoot my little pea shooter at 600 yards with both eyes closed.
5.56 NATO at 600 yards with issue ammo? Need to see that. Or, perhaps it is a 7.62? hard to judge with no scale. You do have a great scope there, congrats!
In any case, the factors of scale always prevail. Ballistics are the rulers we need to use to compare mandarins and grapefruits.
From the external ballistics point of view: a 12 ft-lbs 0.177" domed pellet of good manufacture (H&N, JSB, QYS) at 55 yards/50 meters is the ballistic equivalent of a 7.62X51 NATO 147 grs issue ball at 350 yards.
Same drop, same drift, same ToF.
Regardless of what powerplant you use, airgun shooting at more than 45 yards is a challenge. Large caliber PCP's can do good at 100-120 yards in 0.25" cal and above 50 ft-lbs of ME, but then it is like shooting a 7 mm Rem mag. Not standard issue NATO cartridges.
Now, comparing clementines to mandarins, some RF competitions are disqualifying some PCP's because they CAN be more accurate at the same ranges (out to 150 yards), when they choose to shoot targets out to 300 is where the things tilt again in favor of the RF's.
Is 150 yards an unrealistic range for springers? YES, by all means, yes.
But they do make for tremendous practice and marksmanship skills development out to 55 yards.
;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Sorry I was just venting on a TROLL post before I realized that I got suckered in.
I have been making my own .223 ammo since 1979. I know what will ring steel at 600 yards. I have 2 pea shooter rifles that do it with ease. I quit shooting any .224 caliber bullets of less than 77 grains several years ago. I've never seen a PCP rifle ringing steel at 600 yards although it surely can be done.
Today I brought my D54 springer rifle to the 50 yard range. Even though the 50 yard lanes are semi protected from the wind the gusts were averaging 15 MPH. After about 100 pellets I was embarassed at the accuracy. Maybe 3 rounds in one hole but the next all over the place.
Next up was my old $275 stock competition model Savage 22LR. I only shot 15 rounds as it was a waste of even cheap match ammo hitting the 1' bullseye center every shot. I never shoot this rifle less than 100 yards anyway as it is too boring.
So much for springer to 22LR comparison.
Next up were 2 Ruger 22 LR 6.78" barreled pistols. More challenging but at least I had an excuse for spread out groups.
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5.56 NATO at 600 yards with issue ammo? Need to see that....
My son who was in the USA Marines in the year 1999 qualified at 500 yards with a standard issue M16 and standard NATO 5.56 ammo. Granted a 12' target but with iron sights.
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@ RM :
Glad we agree. 77 grains and fast twist is good combinations at long range.
I used to shoot the 7.62 out of a Steyr SSG '69 between 300 and out to 1,000 yards, Iron Sights (peeps), English Match (prone) at Liverpool, UK. Being a coastal town, you can imagine the winds. Service rounds, Radway Green arsenal.
I also hunted in Scotland and, twice, I brought my hunting rounds (Sierra 168 GK's) to the Match, and yes, there was a difference. Obviously, my scores for those days did not count LOL!
In Field Target we shoot at 1½" holes (meaning that the pellet has to pass CLEANLY through the hole) to bring down the faceplate at undefined/unkown distances between 39 and 55 yards, 1" targets are shot between 22 and 39 yards, 25/32" at between 10 and 22 yards. Sitting position no slings.
Can I bring the 55 yards target down EVERY time with my springer?, nope! but most of the time, yes.
And this is the difference. Shooting spring-piston airguns puts a LOT more emphasis on the shooters' performance than on the equipment.
Take the 54 for what it is. A tool for learning and HOLDING a good shooting form that will carry over to ANY form of shooting you care to do. With less money spent on ammo.
Enjoy the differences.
BTW, Congrats to your son!
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Thanks,
I’m the first to admit at my age I’m not even half as good as I used to be. I know better than to rely on my past achievements as a younger man to impress myself as well as others. It is my fault and not the equipment if I can’t achieve what I expect.
I have recently found the D54 more fun to shoot with iron sights. Don’t need finicky mounts or destroy good scopes either. Much more satisfying targets also.
In my mind the ZR mount will always be a POS unless it is re-engineered and built as a precision tool which nobody will be able to afford then.
The 54 is a very accurate starter rifle for my youngest grandkids. I’ll move them up to firearms like the others when they are ready. At least they can practice in the back yard for now.
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Senior Medina,
If Diana could engineer the ZR mount to incorporate four bronze bushings in the aluminum housing at the exit points of the sliding rods I believe that would be a solution worth pursuing. That would be a cost effective modification in my mind without creating a whole new design.
Drill out the four points and press in four bushings for the rods to slide in.
Maybe a $120 mount instead of a $80 mount? No drilling or set screws needed by the perfectionist shooters.
Myself having worked for the Germans for six years of my career I'm sure it would get some pushback. Especially from the engineers with the last name ending in ski. LOL
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Senior Medina,
If Diana could engineer the ZR mount to incorporate four bronze bushings in the aluminum housing at the exit points of the sliding rods I believe that would be a solution worth pursuing. That would be a cost effective modification in my mind without creating a whole new design.
Drill out the four points and press in four bushings for the rods to slide in.
Maybe a $120 mount instead of a $80 mount? No drilling or set screws needed by the perfectionist shooters.
Myself having worked for the Germans for six years of my career I'm sure it would get some pushback. Especially from the engineers with the last name ending in ski. LOL
DM
At present, the effort has been to get the maker get better and better at keeping good tolerances and quality. The current crop is not bad as far as hunters and plinkers are concerned (which covers 95% of all airgunners).
Bushings would be a good solution, but what happens with wear?
Screw adjustable buttons have the advantage that you can take up the wear, like any gib in a machine tool would allow you to do.
I'm making a few Accurized ZR mounts per month, so I know the demand is there.
It's not the first, nor it will be the last, time that DIANA does not pay too much attention to my suggestions. ;-)
Thanks, keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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I found some 6mm ID X 8MM OD bronze bushings. I'll install when I can devote time to this. I wanted to be able to screw them into the mount for easy exchange of worn ones but that is proving too difficult. Press in bushings will have to suffice.
I am also working on a two piece barrel tuner. Lower half secures the barrel shroud and has outer threads at the end. The upper half is of larger diameter, has internal threads and screws onto the lower half. Looks like a proper tuner IMO.
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I am also working on a two piece barrel tuner. Lower half secures the barrel shroud and has outer threads at the end. The upper half is of larger diameter, has internal threads and screws onto the lower half. Looks like a proper tuner IMO.
Yes it does.
My battle with "adjustable" tuners was unsuccessful because the vibrations of the action. No thread proved to be up to the task. Fine ones, coarse ones, acme, whitworth, all of them ended "dis-adjsuting themselves with use. AND it was that "self-dis-adjusting" that caused the demise of the commercial one.
Maybe you can solve the riddle, hope you will.
Keep us posted!
HM
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Sorry, I had a couple major family events happen so haven't been able to devote any time to this project.
Hector, you have to sometimes think out of the box to solve a problem.
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Sorry, I had a couple major family events happen so haven't been able to devote any time to this project.
Hector, you have to sometimes think out of the box to solve a problem.
Good!
Keep us posted.
HM