GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => German AirGun Gate => Topic started by: mozeely on September 23, 2023, 01:17:58 AM
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I have an ARH spring kit for my Weihrauch HW50S. The original seal came out in perfect condition so I'm going to reuse it. My question is about how to lube it.
The kit came with a little jar of what I think must be heavy tar. I also have a small container of Vortek grease from a gun I did a few years ago. I think I will use the Vortek grease on the spring guide and seal, and a thin coating of the tar on the spring. Does all this make sense?
I find it odd that the ARH kit comes with no instructions or recommendations. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
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Main page of ARH's website says "Our target audience is skilled gunsmiths and airgunsmiths. So we supply no instructions or advice on assembly, dis-assembly or exploded diagrams or "how to" books or files. Thank You!"
To answer your question, yes, the jar that came with the kit is heavy tar for the spring. No idea what the vortek grease is.
You can find alot of videos, pictures and guides on here about how to lube your air rifle, which greases to use, etc. Avoid getting any lubricant in front of your piston seal, and remember less is more.
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Main page of ARH's website says "Our target audience is skilled gunsmiths and airgunsmiths. So we supply no instructions or advice on assembly, dis-assembly or exploded diagrams or "how to" books or files. Thank You!"
To answer your question, yes, the jar that came with the kit is heavy tar for the spring. No idea what the vortek grease is.
You can find alot of videos, pictures and guides on here about how to lube your air rifle, which greases to use, etc. Avoid getting any lubricant in front of your piston seal, and remember less is more.
Good advice here to do a bit of reading here and on youtube about how to lube your hw50s. The Vortek grease is a general lubricant (like moly paste) to be used on the the spring guide and sides of the piston/seal (but not in front of the seal as noted). The ARH heavy tar is generally applied to the spring. I’m a big fan of ARH kits and have them in 3 of my spring guns, but I never use the ARH heavy tar. IMHO the benefits are minimal and the tar just makes a mess of everything. Lubes will last a long time and should be used sparingly.
Enjoy your hw50s, that is my favorite spring gun.
R
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Main page of ARH's website says "Our target audience is skilled gunsmiths and airgunsmiths. So we supply no instructions or advice on assembly, dis-assembly or exploded diagrams or "how to" books or files. Thank You!"
Yes I get that. I still find it odd that an engineered product comes with the expectation that the user figure out how to use it. I chose this kit based on opinions of others, and I made my decision how to apply it based on opinions. I'm fine with that. But maybe I'm spoiled because in the environment I'm from, every single seal, coupling, actuator, controller, etc. has technical details available, without exception. Never heard of this arrangement, that's all.
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I emphatically agree with EM. Use the kit with very light amounts of the Vortek grease on the spring and guide. Just a tiny smear around the seal sides and ends of the piston.
Make sure you mop out all the old grease with a paper towel wrapped around a stick first. A little brake parts cleaner on the towel's end will help. Very critical not to have any grease old or new in front of that seal.
You're lucky your seal came out perfect. Most are cut like this by the cocking slot on the way in.
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Out of curiosity, what is the composition of the Vortek grease?
Also, in some of the European videos I've seen them use a lubricant called Mona Lisa. What is that?
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Out of curiosity, what is the composition of the Vortek grease?
Also, in some of the European videos I've seen them use a lubricant called Mona Lisa. What is that?
I'm not sure of the Vortek grease composition. It was tan and was recently changed to another manufacturer and it's red now. Tom at Vortek has explained both to me and I've since forgot the crazy details. I've used the tan stuff in literally dozens of guns with zero problems. I haven't used the newer red yet. Both are high grade mid weight petroleum based lubes and will work well when used correctly.
No idea about the European grease.
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I usually install and test the kit without tar, then open it back up and add tar only if there's vibration. Usually, they don't need tar, but I did get one ARH kit that did need it and it happened to be for the modern HW50S.
For the piston lubrication, the Vortek grease should be fine.
Have fun!
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The ARH kits in my 95 and 50 were installed using a small amount of the arh moly paste on the internals, I did fashion plastic piston liners for both. No spring noise and shoot very nice. Everyone has a slight twist on what they do, not sure there is a best way.
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I don't like using Moly or the Dino Greases that a lot of OEMs use in their guns. I absolutely love the PTFE lubes but they tend to be expensive but are definitely a One and Done...
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Krytox / Ultimox are shockingly expensive, especially coming from across an ocean. But a tiny amount makes everything that needs to very slippery, so it evens out.
I feel the biggest if with the Krytox / Ultimox is the need for absolutely thorough removal of the dino oil that was in the gun previously. A simple degreasing job doesn't cut it.
The worst place inside a springer in this regard is the bottom seam of the compression chamber, which in most guns is porous / ragged and hides tiny amounts of previous lube very efficiently, while being situated in the absolutely worst place for combustion / cross-contamination, or at the end of the comp tube.
Just slightly contaminated Krytox / Ultimox turns sticky, and enables dieseling.
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I emphatically agree with EM. Use the kit with very light amounts of the Vortek grease on the spring and guide. Just a tiny smear around the seal sides and ends of the piston.
Make sure you mop out all the old grease with a paper towel wrapped around a stick first. A little brake parts cleaner on the towel's end will help. Very critical not to have any grease old or new in front of that seal.
You're lucky your seal came out perfect. Most are cut like this by the cocking slot on the way in.
"Most are cut like this"
I have one from a couple decades ago that looked like this when removed along with a pic of a used Beeman R8 piston seal...........
(https://i.imgur.com/7bQ6t3S.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/MKXKqWk.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/Pwz2yL9.png)
I'm guessing that the "abrasion" was from the receiver dowel pin holes/slots that weren't deburred at the HW factory when the seal was rammed into place. IMHO, it's a good idea to check for burrs around the receiver "holes and slots" and then remove them before installing a new seal. Here are a couple pics showing HW95 holes, punch outs and slot..........
(https://i.imgur.com/NhqnQvs.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/8HJOxr2.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/S3ACiZD.jpg)
Personally, I prefer to use non-dieseling Dupont Krytox GPL205 grease for all my springer lubing except for "pressed together parts" like the cocking lever joints that get a drop or two of Krytox GPL105 oil.......
(https://i.imgur.com/2gbPqo0.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/EJSxLJ4.jpg)
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Krytox / Ultimox are shockingly expensive, especially coming from across an ocean. But a tiny amount makes everything that needs to very slippery, so it evens out.
I feel the biggest if with the Krytox / Ultimox is the need for absolutely thorough removal of the dino oil that was in the gun previously. A simple degreasing job doesn't cut it.
The worst place inside a springer in this regard is the bottom seam of the compression chamber, which in most guns is porous / ragged and hides tiny amounts of previous lube very efficiently, while being situated in the absolutely worst place for combustion / cross-contamination, or at the end of the comp tube.
Just slightly contaminated Krytox / Ultimox turns sticky, and enables dieseling.
Yup!
When I switched over to Krytox, i squirted brake cleaner into the comp tube and wiped it out with paper towels wrapped around a dowel, THREE times. I has to be absolutely clean.
-Yogi
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Krytox / Ultimox are shockingly expensive, especially coming from across an ocean. But a tiny amount makes everything that needs to very slippery, so it evens out.
I feel the biggest if with the Krytox / Ultimox is the need for absolutely thorough removal of the dino oil that was in the gun previously. A simple degreasing job doesn't cut it.
The worst place inside a springer in this regard is the bottom seam of the compression chamber, which in most guns is porous / ragged and hides tiny amounts of previous lube very efficiently, while being situated in the absolutely worst place for combustion / cross-contamination, or at the end of the comp tube.
Just slightly contaminated Krytox / Ultimox turns sticky, and enables dieseling.
Yup!
When I switched over to Krytox, i squirted brake cleaner into the comp tube and wiped it out with paper towels wrapped around a dowel, THREE times. I has to be absolutely clean.
-Yogi
<B>"I has to be absolutely clean"
Yes, this is true for "high speed bearings but IMHO, springer innerds aren't bearings. This explains the mixing of petro based lubes with Krytox........
(https://i.imgur.com/6zcKAEd.png) (https://i.imgur.com/fZlsPtq.png)
Personally, I don't class "springer innerds" with high speed bearings so I'm not TOO fussy with the stripping, however REALLY clean is a GOOD thing before using Krytox.
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Ed,
The first time I used Krytox I only cleaned the compression tube once. After 100-200 pellets through, I lost about 100fps. When I opened it up I saw lots of little white globs. Looked a little like little boogers... ;D ;D ;D
-Yogi
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I've tuned a few guns, all of them with Krytox. I clean the compression chamber and hone using dawn dish soap as the swarf solution and then re-lubed with Krytox and have had zero issues with globes.....
Just cleaning with hot soapy water...
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Yes. The key factor here is utilizing a solvent that the existing grease/coatings you're trying to remove is soluble in. You should be able to take a swap of the grease or oil and test with multiple solvents. My normal base approach would be to start with water, methanol, white spirits (stoddard solvent), acetone, and then possibly toluene, xylene, and limonene. You can utilize TEAS charts to plot out a particular grease or oil and see what families its likely soluble in.
Cleaning 5 times with brake cleaner (just an example) if a particular grease is not soluble in brake cleaner will do no good, and you'll only get the mechanical removal from the paper towel swapping. Also important to utilize the least dangerous chemical possible to your own health. There are MSDS and health and safety guidelines on the utilization of each of these solvents and many are recommended only under the use of a fume cupboard or hood.
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I've tuned a few guns, all of them with Krytox. I clean the compression chamber and hone using dawn dish soap as the swarf solution and then re-lubed with Krytox and have had zero issues with globes.....
Just cleaning with hot soapy water...
The only time I had "issues" with Krytox (story posted several times) was with my old .177 Beeman R9 where the induction brazing (I'm guessing) between the receiver tube and "barrel pivot fork" was porous. After a couple years of using petro based molly paste (about 20,000 shots) the molly paste was driven deep into the "braze voids" by pressure and heat so aerosol brake cleaner and scrubbing couldn't dissolve the stuff. After the initial Krytox lubing all worked well but I would get a "light strange whiff" after a shot. After the 1000 shot testing the R9 was broken down and there was "black streaks" in the white Krytox that I had slathered in the receiver to test the "non-dieseling claim". After another brake cleaner soaking, wiping and reassembly I was still getting a "slight strange whiff" but not as noticeable as previous. After the 1000 shot breakdown revealed a small amount of "grey in the white" so there was a third "strip and wipe, reassembly" but the "strange whiff" was gone and the next 1000 shot test breakdown showed no "grey in the white". Curious I took a pic of the receiver ID and this is what it looked like.........
(https://i.imgur.com/xFNkOry.jpg)
I have a suspicion the the Krytox dissolved the "baked in molly grease" that the aerosol brake cleaner didn't dissolve and the "strange whiffs" were simply the dissolved "dinosaur grease" dieseling. A few years lather I bought a new HW95, stripped of the factory "petro grease" and relubed with Krytox GPL205 and had no "strange whiffs". Here is what the braze looked like in the newer HW95........
(https://i.imgur.com/wlKDrlE.jpg)
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I'm inclined to use what they recommend and supply with their product.
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I have an ARH spring kit for my Weihrauch HW50S. The original seal came out in perfect condition so I'm going to reuse it. My question is about how to lube it.
The kit came with a little jar of what I think must be heavy tar. I also have a small container of Vortek grease from a gun I did a few years ago. I think I will use the Vortek grease on the spring guide and seal, and a thin coating of the tar on the spring. Does all this make sense?
I find it odd that the ARH kit comes with no instructions or recommendations. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
I would not mix the two. When using the Vortek kits I use his lube on everything in the powerplant.
ARH kits I use the cold weather tar on the spring lightly, and moly paste on the seal and piston. I find the cold weather tar better in my rifles, it is a thick grease with a heavy dose of moly suspended from what I can tell. The heavy tar I just haven’t warmed up to.
I do strip the comp tubes and buff in Super Lube grease and dry polish before going together with the above.
Jason
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This might help ya some👍
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9A3pvx95zLI
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FWIW, I think the subject of which lubes to use is over-analyzed and marginal.
If the individual tune is done properly ..... both dinosaur and Krytox are excellent lubes.
Jim Maccari wouldn't use what he does if his product didn't work with great results. He has been tuning and perfecting the Springer for 40+ years.
That said, Krytox does provide some advantages even though it's more expensive.
Both are very good products and it's nice to have some choices. I'm sure the lube Vortek provides of very good too.
The most important thing is to have a good fit overall of the internals and have the gun reassembled properly.
I know some folks think this is a low bar or standard, but if this minimum is done we wouldn't have the horror stories or problems we see every day on the GTA.