GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => German AirGun Gate => Topic started by: north country gal on August 10, 2023, 08:26:23 PM
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After having open heart bypass surgery over the winter and the long recovery that followed, I was eager to get back into some airgun shooting with my HW springers. Of course, for those of you who are familiar with this surgery, you are put on stringent lifting restrictions over that long recovery, given how you lose so much upper body strength as your breastbone heals. In an effort to get back to where I could handle cocking my two HW50s a bit quicker, I added an HW moderator to both.
HW50 in 177, top, and 20, bottom. Scopes are Leupold Freedom 3-9 EFRs
(https://i.postimg.cc/8kFCWHTT/P1110445.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
And adding the moderator did help reduce cocking effort, even though I only grab the moderator around the rear section of the moderator where it fits over the barrel, back over the cut out for the front sight and not out at the end of the moderator.
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4cS1pkq/P1110527.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Grabbing the moderator for cocking in this manner, I've had zero issues with the moderator working loose and have done no damage to the moderator. (Besides, that's as far as I can comfortably reach, anyway.) Just that thicker cocking handle that the moderator provides up where the front sight would sit has made a noticeable difference in reducing cocking effort, though.
The whole idea of adding a moderator, of course, is to reduce noise. On a springer like the HW50, it doesn't reduce noise the way adding a moderator does to a PCP, but it does muffle the sharp crack into a dull thump. It does make a difference. For instance, with the moderator attached on the HW50, I am more aware of the sound of the pellet hitting the metal bullet trap than when I was shooting the HW50 without a moderator.
There's still more to consider than cocking effort and noise reduction when adding a moderator to the HW50, of course. One of these is handling. That HW moderator adds considerable length to the gun, so the short handy HW50 becomes more like my longer barreled HW35E as far as handling the HW50 in tight places.
Another is balance. The change in balance that happens when you stick that moderator out at the end of the HW50 barrel is considerable. It really does turn that light, snappy muzzle of the HW50 into a much steadier animal. That can be good or bad, depending on your shooting position. Me, I like that added weight at the muzzle when shooting my 50 from a rest, but not so much for my offhand shooting.
What about actual shooting with the moderator on the HW50? The moderator does change the POI, considerably, even at the 25 yards I often shoot a lot from our raised deck down to the backstop. Again, this depends on my shooting position. When shooting from a rest, adding a moderator drops the POI by several inches even at 25 yards compared to shooting without the moderator, even with the same settings on my scope. Yup, remove the moderator and groups raise a couple of inches.
It's a bit more subtle when shooting offhand. When I switch from a rest to offhand without a moderator on a rifle or even a handgun, I typically shoot a bit lower when going offhand and have to hold a bit higher if I'm still sighted in for rest shooting. With the extra weight of the moderator on the HW50, the difference when switching between a rest and offhand is a bit more pronounced, so I have to hold even higher than I otherwise would without the moderator.
And then there's accuracy. No, I'm not about to claim that adding the moderator to the HW50 makes the HW50 inherently more accurate. After all, an HW50 barrel is still an HW50 barrel. I have noticed, though, that the extra weight of the moderator does tame the recoil a bit and that has helped me with my follow through. Over the course of a session, it has helped a bit with my average group size.
As a little aside on the accuracy of the HW50 with a moderator, just last week I was shooting my match grade rimfires at 30 yards in the backyard, hoping to find a quiet ammo that would also provide some worthy accuracy. We don't talk about powder burners on this forum, so let me say it was just plain mission impossible and I was getting very frustrated. As a control and to let off some steam, went back in the house and returned with the HW50 in 20 cal and shot a quick group from a rest. Got in a hurry and pulled the first shot, so I settled down and shot 5 more. Still under half inch even with the one I pulled. The other 5 in one hole. What can I say? The HW50 kicked some serious (and very expensive) rimfire butt that day. :)
(https://i.postimg.cc/N0Yykrpp/P1110502.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Interesting. I have a HW moderator that I bought to put on my HW35 when I took the MB that someone installed off. Slipped it on, didn’t like look or feel on that gun, never fired it. Just showed your post to Kim, it might make an appearance on her 50. Thanks.
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You're welcome. Let me know how she likes it if she tries it.
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I designed this delrin muzzle brake to add about 1 inch to the barrel for extra leverage. You don't really notice the addition by looking. Image resizer made it look animated!
(http://)
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Joannie,
I'm with you on the slightly longer cocking handle.
On mine I have a threaded adaptor and screw on an LDC.
When I unscrew the moderator, it shoots 2 inches low at 25 yds. When I attach the moderator the POI rises about 3 inches, go figure... ::)
-Y
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Not surprised at all, Y, given the way springers recoil. Hard to predict what will happen wet you add any weight at the end of the barrel.
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Well Joanie, I was going to install mod on Kim’s HW50 tonight and she decided she likes her gun as is. If anyone needs a HW push on mod for 15mm barrel in .22 let me know. Will end up in Classifieds at some point otherwise. I never used it and I’m not sure previous owner did either. I can’t find a mark on it, even grub screws look new.
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Joanie, I wondered where you had been. I glad that you're up and at 'em.
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Thanks, Greg. Yeah, I'm shooting again on a regular basis and now that I can handle them as far as cocking effort, I'm shooting mostly my springers. That means mostly the HW30s and 50s with some 35E shooting now and then and, of course, the FWB Sport when I really want those steel targets to sing. One of these days, I may actually get around to dusting off the PCPs or the CO2 or the pumpers. Just hard not to grab a springer when I'm in the mood to do some shooting.
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Touche Joanie,
I love your tenacity to keep on living/doing your favorite things 8). Ya gotta do whatever works to keep going .......... ;)
After I had my brain surgery back in '95, it was a 3 year process of discovering what I could still do and being thankful I was still alive.
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You are so right, Kirk and I think it takes something like this to really appreciate that. Yeah, there were days during my recovery when I wondered if it was time to sell off the springers and be stuck shooting PCPs for the rest of my years. So glad I just kept going and was patient.
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You are so right, Kirk and I think it takes something like this to really appreciate that. Yeah, there were days during my recovery when I wondered if it was time to sell off the springers and be stuck shooting PCPs for the rest of my years. So glad I just kept going and was patient.
Yes Joanie,
In retrospect ... the worst part of recovery evolved me not being Patient enough with my progress :P.
Hence ..... is this it?
- Hard work always pay dividends ;).
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Adding a moderator to a full-length barrel does make them a bit long, IMO, the best way to keep things more Ruly is to chop the barrel down or buy a rifle that already has a short barrel to begin with, ;D (https://i.ibb.co/pQ1M43t/SAM-1780.jpg)
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Adding a moderator to a full-length barrel does make them a bit long, IMO, the best way to keep things more Ruly is to chop the barrel down or buy a rifle that already has a short barrel to begin with, ;D (https://i.ibb.co/pQ1M43t/SAM-1780.jpg)
Yeah Yoda,
I know you and Fang came up with this and the "No-Choke" works for you, but I've always had a hard time chopping off the choke.
Maybe pure paranoia, but it's real to me ............ :P
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Joanie, Life is such an adventure. As your experience shows, the adventures change as we get older, but they certainly don't let up. It is good to know your recovery is progressing well.
I am an amateur shooter, with one rifle to my name. I want to ask about your moderator experience. Your posted target is impressive, but I can do that too. Some times twice in a row... But mostly, my groups look quite different from yours. Since you originally posted, have you continued to shoot? If so, has the moderator produced consistent improvement ?
I would like to quiet my gun and have casually looked for a U.S. sourced HW moderator for an R9, so far without success. But if it gives advantage to accuracy, I'll start looking a little harder.
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Joanie, Life is such an adventure. As your experience shows, the adventures change as we get older, but they certainly don't let up. It is good to know your recovery is progressing well.
I am an amateur shooter, with one rifle to my name. I want to ask about your moderator experience. Your posted target is impressive, but I can do that too. Some times twice in a row... But mostly, my groups look quite different from yours. Since you originally posted, have you continued to shoot? If so, has the moderator produced consistent improvement ?
I would like to quiet my gun and have casually looked for a U.S. sourced HW moderator for an R9, so far without success. But if it gives advantage to accuracy, I'll start looking a little harder.
Tom,
Moderators on springer offer just a little moderation, just a little. Sometimes the LDC also acts as an air stripper and then groups can improve.
I believe AoA has them in stock. Otherwise check-out Utah Air Guns. The HW moderator is one of the best and THE longest. ;)
-Y
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Tom, Yogi is spot on. Very nice moderators for HW springers.
As I said in my original post, I can't and won't claim that adding a moderator significantly improves group size, but my recent experience with the HW moderators shows it doesn't hurt accuracy and I do think the added weight on the end of the barrel with the moderator does tame muzzle jump a bit and that has helped with my follow through a bit on the light HW50, so there's that. I apologize, though, if I gave the impression that adding a moderator is a way to improve accuracy. That would be a huge stretch. Consistency with any springer is still shooter form and so on. That comes from experience and trail and error. No shortcut, there. My suggestion would be to add an HW moderator to your R9 for some of the other reasons I listed, assuming that works for your shooting. Just don't spend the money on one as a way to tighten groups.
Yes, I still shoot on a regular basis, typically several sessions a week, since I can just grab a springer and walk out my back door or step out on my deck. This is with a wide variety of air guns, mostly springers and most of them do not have moderators. No, I have no plans to add moderators to all my other springers at this point based on my experience with the moderators on the HW50s. I still shoot my other springers just fine without adding moderators. That includes my FWB Sport and if there's a springer that could use some noise reduction, it's the new FWB Sport. Like it way too much to change anything on it and that includes adding a moderator. :)
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Adding back to this conversation, for me anyway, my rifles are tune up by me, using ARH spring kits, I have used a lot of different piston seals, but have mainly stuck with the AUSSI seals, which for me work very well, to take real advantage of a moderator's sound reduction you need to tune the power plant to eliminate as much noise as possible, moderators can also aid in accuracy with their weight to reduce barrel harmonics, sticking a moderator on an untuned gun to me is kind of pointless, your going to still hear the spring noise and any dieseling if there's any lube in the power plant in front of the piston seal, and again a long barrel IMO is also not the way to go either with a moderator on a spring gun, Short barreled guns of 10.5 to 12.25'' the pellet has way less dwell time in the barrel, which lead's to less error on the shooters end, these are things that aid in accuracy, as J has also pointed out it's also all about the shooter, spring gun shooting is an art, to shoot accurately, but once you master it it's a no brainer! ;)
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Adding a moderator to a full-length barrel does make them a bit long, IMO, the best way to keep things more Ruly is to chop the barrel down or buy a rifle that already has a short barrel to begin with, ;D (https://i.ibb.co/pQ1M43t/SAM-1780.jpg)
Who do you recommend for chopping?
RIP WHITEFANG
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FWIW my HW95L specs.
Moderator weighs 4.32 oz, 122.6 g, 1892 gr. Moderator is 6” long and female threads start 1.7” in from beveled end of Moderator. The thread is 3/4" long & 1/2" diameter with 20 threads per inch.
Barrel length = 15.75”, 400 mm, from end of moderator to breech block end. HW95 barrel is 16 mm diameter. Barrel without moderator = 12.188”, (12-3/16”, 309.575 mm), from thread end to breech block end. HW95L total rifle length = 41.875”, 1063.625 mm, from end of moderator to butt center. Rifle is 29”, 736.6 mm, from end of moderator to end of compression tube, receiver action.
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Guy, sorry for the late response, for 1 air guns in these power ranges don't benefit from a long barrel unless your going to use the iron sites? also IMO unless you also need the extra length to aid the cocking, HW rifles IMO are not hard to cock anyway, most all air guns from the HW50 on down really only need 10'' of barrel length, the extra 5.5'' on a 50's barrel length does not add any velocity, air guns do not work like firearms, where barrel length is need to burn powder, PCP air guns are another story, spring piston air guns in this class I have over the year's done a lot experimenting with to see what works and what doesn't, Si Pittaway a youtuber from England is where I got a lot of the info to start off with, The HW50 is a 12lb gun in .22caliber, my .22cal HW50 runs 11.9ftlbs with a 10.5'' barrel, so there's no velocity loss vs the factory 15.5'' barrel, same go's with both of my .20cal 50's I have a factory built 50 in .20cal with its factory barrel length and a modified .20cal 50 with an 11'' barrel both are tuned exactly the same and both shoot identical velocity's, short barrels aid in accuracy, theirs less time for the pellet to be effected by shooter error, back to the OAL of the rifle, short barrels are louder, but adding a moderator of proper dimensions you reduce the report down to very quiet, the rifle pix I posted with the moderator is only 1.5'' longer the rifle with its factory barrel length and still retains its full power! 8)
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Kirk, the no choke theory came from a proven air gun tuner who long retired 10yrs ago or more, RIM, years ago when I had him installing LW barrels, he told me a good barrel does not need a choke!!! it needs a good cut and crown, OC and I tested this theory over and over again on mine and his work on his own guns, I have seen no I'll effects to any of the things we did, accuracy has always been outstanding!! ;)
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Deerstalker, your rifle has the same overall dimensions as my R9 and the HW95's available from Krale. But yours has the moderator while the others don't. I guess you bought a special HW model that has a shorter barrel to accommodate the moderator length, or it was modified aftermarket. It seems a nice configuration, and it has apparently not diminished your gun's performance. So I have a question.
I read in an older post that the HW break barrels are not specifically designed with a choke, but that the choke most people have observed is simply a side effect of forming the front site dovetail at the forward end of the barrel. If this is true, then your rifle won't have a choked barrel. Have you ever checked? If so, what did you find? Thanks, Tom
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Guy, sorry for the late response, for 1 air guns in these power ranges don't benefit from a long barrel unless your going to use the iron sites? also IMO unless you also need the extra length to aid the cocking, HW rifles IMO are not hard to cock anyway, most all air guns from the HW50 on down really only need 10'' of barrel length, the extra 5.5'' on a 50's barrel length does not add any velocity, air guns do not work like firearms, where barrel length is need to burn powder, PCP air guns are another story, spring piston air guns in this class I have over the year's done a lot experimenting with to see what works and what doesn't, Si Pittaway a youtuber from England is where I got a lot of the info to start off with, The HW50 is a 12lb gun in .22caliber, my .22cal HW50 runs 11.9ftlbs with a 10.5'' barrel, so there's no velocity loss vs the factory 15.5'' barrel, same go's with both of my .20cal 50's I have a factory built 50 in .20cal with its factory barrel length and a modified .20cal 50 with an 11'' barrel both are tuned exactly the same and both shoot identical velocity's, short barrels aid in accuracy, theirs less time for the pellet to be effected by shooter error, back to the OAL of the rifle, short barrels are louder, but adding a moderator of proper dimensions you reduce the report down to very quiet, the rifle pix I posted with the moderator is only 1.5'' longer the rifle with its factory barrel length and still retains its full power! 8)
How short can I go before velocity/accuracy is affected?
I would like to chop my barrel to say 7" plus a 5" moderator. Will be harder to cock, sure, but not a big deal.
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The rifle's I have with the short barrels 98% of them the barrels were chopped and recrowned by OC Bolding, AKA, WHITEFANG, I have also purchased a few factory 12.2'' HW barrels from Chambers, the chokes you refer to on the HW barrels is a pinch choke that is caused from forming the front site grooves into the barrel, The barrel lengths I chose to cut my barrels were proven lengths, or spec's use from what the factory or other air gun smiths have use and were proven successful, I would stick to those lengths if I were chopping a barrel off, HW on their barrels, the shortest I have seen offered on a spring gun is 12.2'' on their K models with moderators, Our friends across the pond have proven a 10.5'' barrel on an HW50 size power plant works, I also think the twist rate somewhat dictates an optimal length for power and accuracy on different size power plants, ;D
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Guy,
If you really want a short barrel, think about either a Bullpup PCP, or the Diana LP-8 Magnum Carbine. 5-6" barrel, accurate and only 100 fps less than a normal HW 50. 8)
-Y
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OCG, Joanie, I had a triple last April. So I missed last quail season and lost lots miles on the Harley. Happy to say I’m shooting again , both air and powder and riding the hog. Good on you girl and I agree. It makes you realize that sitting around thinking about stuff ain’t the same as getting it done. Get living or get to dying. I chose to get living 😁 and I got a new HW35E today.
Bob
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And good for you Bob. Yeah, really have to live through that kind of experience to fully understand and appreciate how it can stop you in your tracks if you let it. We didn't, so we're still shooting. Congrats on the 35E. Love mine. Let us know if you have any questions on it.