GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => German AirGun Gate => Topic started by: SpiralGroove on February 17, 2023, 04:18:33 PM
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Hey Hector,
Now that I have used T-9 on pellets for my springers, will I need to clean the bores more often due to wax/lead buildup?
- Also, do I need to worry about additional dieseling and piston seal wear - getting 20-40 fps more in most springers ;).
Thanks,
Kirk
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Hey Hector,
Now that I have used T-9 on pellets for my springers, will I need to clean the bores more often due to wax/lead buildup?
- Also, do I need to worry about additional dieseling and piston seal wear - getting 20-40 fps more in most springers ;).
Thanks,
Kirk
Nope!
ON the contrary. A rifle that shoots lubed pellets can go for a year/30,000 shots without cleaning.
As long as you use the "Hammocking" system/technique you are not putting enough lube to create a buildup.
Also, there are no solids in T-9, so there is no "wax" to build-up.
The gain you're seeing is a gain in EFFICIENCY of the pellet/barrel interfase.
Less friction, less heat, more energy transferred from the spring into the pellet.
I am glad that you are keeping track of things.
Thanks for the update, keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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What is T_9? Any other trade names it might be called please?
What is the hammock method? (Allowing to drain?)
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What is T_9? Any other trade names it might be called please?
What is the hammock method? (Allowing to drain?)
Her's a link to T-9
https://boeshield.com/
I too would like to know what the hammock method is.
Ed
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Kirk, Did you use the T-9 spray or the liquid?
Steve
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Pearls of wisdom, from people in the know.
I'm taking notes. ;D
-Y
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Hey Hector,
Now that I have used T-9 on pellets for my springers, will I need to clean the bores more often due to wax/lead buildup?
- Also, do I need to worry about additional dieseling and piston seal wear - getting 20-40 fps more in most springers ;).
Thanks,
Kirk
Nope!
ON the contrary. A rifle that shoots lubed pellets can go for a year/30,000 shots without cleaning.
As long as you use the "Hammocking" system/technique you are not putting enough lube to create a buildup.
Also, there are no solids in T-9, so there is no "wax" to build-up.
The gain you're seeing is a gain in EFFICIENCY of the pellet/barrel interfase.
Less friction, less heat, more energy transferred from the spring into the pellet.
I am glad that you are keeping track of things.
Thanks for the update, keep well and shoot straight!
HM
Hector,
Perhaps I missed something, this is Boeshield T-9? From the main page: "True aerospace technology. T-9 was developed and licensed by global aerospace leader, The Boeing Company, to fill a need for high-performance, long-term metal protection and lubrication. T-9’s unique formulation of solvent carrier and paraffin wax coating was engineered to penetrate crevices deeply, displace moisture, dissolve minor corrosion, and leave a clean, waxy coating with lasting durability—without using Teflon, silicone, fluorocarbons, MEK, or acetone."
Looks like a solid to me... ???
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Kirk, Did you use the T-9 spray or the liquid?
Steve
Liquid -
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Kirk, Did you use the T-9 spray or the liquid?
Steve
Liquid -
Thanks Kirk. I tested the T-9 spray and had some detonation. Using the liquid might be the key.
Steve
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Yeah, the T-9 liquid used sparingly on my pellets give an increased velocity not seen before with my polished and waxed barrels (pellets straight from the tin). There is no increased report or smell associated with detonation or dieseling that I can detect.
So they maybe a combination of increased efficiency and some minor amount increased dieseling - who knows :D.
- Time will tell, but for now my vote is for Hector ;)
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Yeah, the T-9 liquid used sparingly on my pellets give an increased velocity not seen before with my polished and waxed barrels (pellets straight from the tin). There is no increased report or smell associated with detonation or dieseling that I can detect.
So they maybe a combination of increased efficiency and some minor amount increased dieseling - who knows :D.
- Time will tell, but for now my vote is for Hector ;)
I plan to retest using the T-9 liquid.
Steve
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Yeah, the T-9 liquid used sparingly on my pellets give an increased velocity not seen before with my polished and waxed barrels (pellets straight from the tin). There is no increased report or smell associated with detonation or dieseling that I can detect.
So they maybe a combination of increased efficiency and some minor amount increased dieseling - who knows :D.
- Time will tell, but for now my vote is for Hector ;)
I plan to retest using the T-9 liquid.
Steve
Excellent Steve,
See what velocity differences you get ;).
I saw the largest velocity difference with my .177 caliber HW80SLK. I think because the gun is somewhat choked by the caliber, the T-9 helps more vs. a HW50. I also saw a bigger difference in my .177 cal. HW35E's.
My theory: Bigger compression chambered gun's, loose power by shooting .177 caliber pellets. This lost efficiency is somewhat gained back shooting T-9 lubed, slicker pellets :-\. Barrel friction is reduced somewhat.
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Will this also work on PCP's?
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Will this also work on PCP's?
I have a similar thread going over at Airgun Nation in the PCP Forum.
Long story short, Motorhead doesn't think it helps and actually thinks it fouls the barrel too much unless your shooting pellets in the 925/960 fps range or slugs at 900 fps.
Many folks are against it in both platforms - check it out.
https://www.airgunnation.com/threads/pellet-lubes-fp-10-or-boeshield-t-9.1284675/ (https://www.airgunnation.com/threads/pellet-lubes-fp-10-or-boeshield-t-9.1284675/)
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Will this also work on PCP's?
I have a similar thread going over at Airgun Nation in the PCP Forum.
Long story short, Motorhead doesn't think it helps and actually thinks it fouls the barrel too much unless your shooting pellets in the 925/960 fps range or slugs at 900 fps.
Many folks are against it in both platforms - check it out.
https://www.airgunnation.com/threads/pellet-lubes-fp-10-or-boeshield-t-9.1284675/ (https://www.airgunnation.com/threads/pellet-lubes-fp-10-or-boeshield-t-9.1284675/)
I tested T-9 spray and Pledge Polish (baked) pellets against unlubed pellets in my D54 CCA .20. The Pledge baked pellets won for accuracy, POI repeatability and consistency in velocity. Next were the unlubed pellets, followed by the T-9 spray. T-9 spray lubed pellets had a high ES due to detonation. By the way, I did use the hammocking method with the T-9.
My rifle is getting around 814 fps with the JSB 13.73gr.
I have a bottle of T-9 liquid on the way.
Steve
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Bye the way, what is the "Hammocking Method"? Swinging/rocking the pellets in a lubed cloth?
I lube in a empty JSB tin, sandwiching them between two foam pads (top/bottom) with lube on them. Then gently swirl, rotate or move the tin side by side swishing the pellets around.
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Bye the way, what is the "Hammocking Method"? Swinging/rocking the pellets in a lubed cloth?
I lube in a empty JSB tin, sandwiching them between two foam pads (top/bottom) with lube on them. Then gently swirl, rotate or move the tin side by side swishing the pellets around.
Yes, A tiny bit of lube in center of a cloth, then dump pellets in center, pick cloth up by the ends and sort of see-saw it back and forth. The pellets roll end to end and cross over the lube dampened section with each pass.
Steve
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Bye the way, what is the "Hammocking Method"? Swinging/rocking the pellets in a lubed cloth?
I lube in a empty JSB tin, sandwiching them between two foam pads (top/bottom) with lube on them. Then gently swirl, rotate or move the tin side by side swishing the pellets around.
Yes, A tiny bit of lube in center of a cloth, then dump pellets in center, pick cloth up by the ends and sort of see-saw it back and forth. The pellets roll end to end and cross over the lube dampened section with each pass.
Steve
I'll do that with CPHP's when they have a lot of swarf, not sure if the little Balistol I use makes any difference at all but I feel better.
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Bye the way, what is the "Hammocking Method"? Swinging/rocking the pellets in a lubed cloth?
I lube in a empty JSB tin, sandwiching them between two foam pads (top/bottom) with lube on them. Then gently swirl, rotate or move the tin side by side swishing the pellets around.
Yes, A tiny bit of lube in center of a cloth, then dump pellets in center, pick cloth up by the ends and sort of see-saw it back and forth. The pellets roll end to end and cross over the lube dampened section with each pass.
Steve
I'll do that with CPHP's when they have a lot of swarf, not sure if the little Balistol I use makes any difference at all but I feel better.
You use Balistol to lube pellets? I love Balistol, you know it is edible? I use it to wipe down my gun after every usage.
Now one more idea to try. thanks. ;D
-Y
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Hey Yogi,
The point of this thread is: Does T-9 liquid increase pellets velocity?
- Without fouling the barrel.
- Without dieseling, ie. Not harming the piston seal.
I have seen velocity improvements, especially in guns where the compression chamber efficiency is limited by bore size.
I have not noticed any dieseling ...... and haven't shot enough to gain insights on barrel fouling.
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OK, thanks to Steve for answering what "Hammocking" is.
Ballistol may work on PCP's, but it is not adviseable to use on "Sproingers". Ballistol is a compound with a mineral oil base (same as Baby Oil). Mineral oil is a hydrocarbon. So, MY advice is to not use Ballistol in spring-piston airguns, but, to each his own. As we'll see soon, even "vegetable diesel" does no harm to pistons and seals when used in a CONTROLLED manner. Now, we'll also see that it provides little advantage in most cases, while serving well in a few.
Main point: Airguns work at such a small energy level that the chaos theory is the best way to try to understand them. A MINUTE difference, possible even between consecutively serialized rifles will yield different results.
I am glad that Kirk is getting good results with T-9/Boeshield. Yes it is the same product. Yes it has paraffin wax. No, it does not "build-up" over 10's of 1000's of shots because the "film" created when hammocking the pellets is almost unmeasurably thin and this wax is not hard enough to "stick".
What Motorhead may be experiencing is a different thing: lead smearing onto a patch of steel that has received some Sb and has diffused it into the pores. In those barrels shooting "juicy" lubed pellets with Kry Tech/Finish line, FP-10, "napier's honey" or one of the other liquid lubricants may help more than T-9.
Where does Sb come from?
USUALLY from "testing" Boxed Premiers in those barrels. I've had to deal with at least three barrels that simply were almost ruined by shooting those Premiers. The solution found was that the gun needed to shoot from clean to no more than 100 shots and then needed a bore snake pass. This worked for the competitor in question and he was happy, so that was that.
About 15 years ago the Premiers took such a dive in quality that I simply wrote them off.
One of the hardest things in making pellets is getting the Sb to actually diffuse into the lead of the alloy. Sb does not TRULY dissolve in the lead to make an eutectic alloy. So, it is possible, if the lead/Sb mix is not properly "fluxed" to have Sb crystals in the alloy. As the pellets made with this alloy pass through the barrel, the friction created can heat the pellet's surface enough to atomize the Sb and then the Sb diffuses itself into the steel.
Once this happens, even JB bore past will not get the barrel completely clean.
For MOST barrels in spring-piston rifles, however, the T-9 or the baked Pledge will work better than other lubes. Again, each barrel is a law unto its own, so if you want to test Ballistol, by all means, go ahead, just be careful to stop the test if you detect dieseling.
Having tested T-9 and baked Pledge in many barrels and used pellets from several different manufacturers, I have developed some theories about how and why each one works better than the other.
What Kirk comments about those guns that are "choked" by the low expansion ratio of the barrel would tend to support my theory, but we would need to be performing some "soft pellet catching" tests to prove or disprove the theory.
HOWEVER, in BOTH cases, I do see improvements by lubing pellets. Something that a lot of shooters still do not like/want to do.
Thanks!
HM
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Has anyone ever tried to use an aerosol dry lube to lube pellets. I use them all the time for other things. Reading this thread made me wonder if it has been done , and if so, did it work ?
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OK, T-9 it is. ;D
-Y
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What does BAKED Pledge mean?
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OK, T-9 it is. ;D
-Y
Hey Yogi,
I would hold off on buying/recommending the liquid T-9 until Nitrocrushr chimes in with his test results.
He is very good at testing/analyzing things ;). It would be nice to have some collaboration of my findings .... if possible.
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What does BAKED Pledge mean?
Just what it says, Don C:
You put about 150 pellets in a metallic "basket" one of those that are used to hold clips in desks.
Then you incline the basket and take three short squirts of Pledge onto the "empty" side of the basket.
Now you swish around the pellets trying to NOT get any liquid into the skirts.
Once they are all well covered in "goo", you put the metallic basket into a toaster oven (NOT the kitchen, one. There are $5 units at most "dollar stores").
You bake them for 2-3 minutes (2 minutes for 150 pellets from cold oven, 3 minutes for 3 baskets or 500 pellets).
You take out the baskets with pliers, swish them around one more time and let them cool down.
You now have Baked Pledge lubed pellets.
It takes less time to read this instructions than doing it once you have all the elements and have some practice.
It's real easy and I have found that it is even more productive than T-9 for lead pellets in the 740-800 fps region.
;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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OK, T-9 it is. ;D
-Y
Hey Yogi,
I would hold off on buying/recommending the liquid T-9 until Nitrocrushr chimes in with his test results.
He is very good at testing/analyzing things ;). It would be nice to have some collaboration of my findings .... if possible.
So far my Weihrauch airgun have varying degrees of increased velocity. One thing I didn't check was the affect velocity increases had on ES?
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OK, T-9 it is. ;D
-Y
Hey Yogi,
I would hold off on buying/recommending the liquid T-9 until Nitrocrushr chimes in with his test results.
He is very good at testing/analyzing things ;). It would be nice to have some collaboration of my findings .... if possible.
Kirk, my bottle of T-9 liquid arrived yesterday. I will be testing this coming weekend.
Steve
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Great Steve,
Look forward to your findings.
I will try to calculate the ES on a few my guns too 8).
Just did a 10 shot string using my (.177) HW80SLX w/o any warm up (JSB 13.43):
1) 694
2) 696
3) 700
4) 702
5) 696
6) 694
7) 703
8) 696
9) 696
10) 700
Ave - 697.7
ES - 10
FPE - 14.5
So the ES looks good, but the velocity is down from about 730 fps - I think it has something to do with our 36 degree temp. in my crawl space :-\.
Also, while the shot cycle is a little rougher with JSB 10.34's, they have produced 18+ FPE in warmer temps.
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I completed the testing with the T-9 Liquid this morning. The results using the T-9 liquid were better than what they were with the T-9 spray. I observed no detonation with the liquid and POI repeatability was improved. However, in comparison to the Pledge Polish baked pellets, energy level was lower.
As you start messing with pellet release pressure, energy levels can change. Just because a particular lube has a lower Coefficient of Friction doesn't necessarily mean that you will have higher velocity. It could cause the pellet to leave a little earlier in the breech as opposed to something with a little higher COF where pressure behind the skirt can increase more before the pellets snaps into motion. I am not saying that this is what is occurring here, but it is a possibility. A slight change in Transfer Port size might regain some of the lost velocity as it would change how the pressure builds on the shot.
Before conducting this test I did the following;
2 dry patches pulled through the bore
2 acetone soaked patches pulled through
1 dry patch to finish things off
20 shots to re-season the bore with the T-9 lubed pellets before moving to the target
Shots 1-15 on target coincide with the shot numbers through the chronograph shown below
Although I only recorded the chronograph data for shots 1-15, they remained solidly in the 790's on shots 16-20.
You will see that I circled shots 13 through 20. The POI began to move to the right and remained there. The barrel probably needed a bit more than 20 shots to completely season before I moved to target, so I am guessing that what you are seeing here is that things had finally settled in with the pellets lubed with the T-9. Regardless of whether you lube pellets or not, having your bore seasoned is critical. If you make any changes at all (including cleaning your barrel), make sure to fully re-season before evaluating results.
Here is the energy level with the Pledge Polish baked pellets. This was taken this morning before I began this testing. As you can see, it matches where this rifle was in my post made on February 18th (above), so very consistent.
(https://i.imgur.com/kgoWDUe.png)
Here is the velocity/energy using the T-9 Liquid. This was recorded after 20 shots were taken to re-season the bore.
(https://i.imgur.com/niOw38d.png)
The Chronograph string with the T-9 Liquid. Taking out the velocity spike of 802fps on shot #3, the ES would have been 9fps. As mentioned above, the barrel may have needed a few more shots to completely season it to the T-9 lubed pellets.
(https://i.imgur.com/zrI3lWN.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/fE0JLMg.jpg)
Here is the POI testing on target - shot #'s 1-15 match the chronograph string above. Not bad at all, especially after things completely settled in on shots 13-20.
(https://i.imgur.com/7heAbmZ.jpg)
At the completion of this testing, I followed the steps listed above for cleaning the bore and went back to the Pledge Polish baked pellets. Energy level returned and I was able to drop pellets into the exact same holes all around the target face. Although the T-9 liquid wasn't bad, this barrel prefers the Pledge Polish baked pellets.
Steve
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Pledge Polish baked pellets
Not a phrase I thought I would ever use... ::)
What the heck, I'll try them in a PCP. ;)
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Pledge Polish baked pellets
Not a phrase I thought I would ever use... ::)
What the heck, I'll try them in a PCP. ;)
Thanks Steve,
How did the T-9 liquid compare to pellets straight from the tin? Was velocity up vs. no additional lube, just down from the Backed Pledge?
- Also, can you give me a link where I can find the Pledge spray?
Best Regards,
Kirk
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Pledge Polish baked pellets
Not a phrase I thought I would ever use... ::)
What the heck, I'll try them in a PCP. ;)
Thanks Steve,
How did the T-9 liquid compare to pellets straight from the tin? Was velocity up vs. no additional lube, just down from the Backed Pledge?
- Also, can you give me a link where I can find the Pledge spray?
Best Regards,
Kirk
Kirk, The T-9 liquid was actually a touch slower than unlubed pellets straight from the tin. Straight from the tin unlubed the average velocity was 803 fps.
I can't recall where I got the Pledge Polish from, but this is the product that I am using. I also included a picture of the basket and toaster that I use to bake them.
(https://i.imgur.com/kxPiB4K.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/M2bq2oN.jpg)
I think it's hit or miss on whether a given rifle/caliber will prefer lube over no lube. Mine prefers the Pledge, while another might prefer T-9 or something else.
Steve
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Pledge Polish baked pellets
Not a phrase I thought I would ever use... ::)
What the heck, I'll try them in a PCP. ;)
It works well in my rifle. As I mentioned, some rifles may prefer another lube such as T-9, or no lube at all.
Steve
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Thanks, Steve!
Good job!
HM
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I just read these posts, and I am interested in testing either T-9 or pledge for lubing my Air Arms 7.9 pellets for my TX200. Do these lubes work well at 880 fps MV?
Background: I recently tuned my TX200 to 13.5 fpe, using a 0.120 Maccari spring on TBT guides. The most accurate pellet for this tune is the AA 7.9gr Express pellets. My rifle is launching them at 880 fps. The down side is that the barrel needs to be cleaned every 400 to 500 shots. Anyone had experience with these lubes at 880 fps velocity?
Thank you!
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I got some different brands of pellets for testing, and after seeing how much garbage was in the tin, and my hands after head size sorting I decided to wash and lube. Can't offer many comparisons because I didn't want to put these down my barrel without washing, but some had been previously tested and chrono'd. As far as accuracy I didn't see any difference in Norma GTFT 9.1, they did pretty well dry, and group sizes were about the same, except that instead of an even, consistent group, the pellets clumped together. Like in a 13 shot group, instead of 1 large hole that was circular I would have 3 or 4 pellets in one small hole in one place, then another 3 or 4 in another small hole. Total group size was about the same. So I'm calling that a draw since I really don't know if it's better or worse, velocity was down and ES and SD tripled. Now for a comparison I cleaned and lubed some H&N FTTs, mostly to make sure lube didn't ruin the accuracy on them because that's the gun's favorite. The washing was done, but not much junk came off. Paper towel damp with Pledge, tumbled around in a shoebox . As for accuracy I cannot compare, tested at 40 yards, which I have not tested with dry at that range since the last spring power change. It did excellent, the velocity is up 15-25 fps on 2 different lots, all were gaged to be 4.54mm (so theyre fat and someone mentioned bearing surface) the extreme spreads were very high and SD went up slightly. But after there had been about 100 shots through the gun (mix of Apolo, Norma, and a few H&N) the FTTs recorded 843 fps five times in a row, then 841 and 842. So this sudden change is interesting, and decided it would be best to clean the barrel before testing this further. I still have quite a few washed and lubed, and just lubed a number of others, I didn't wash because I don't think they benefit. I do like the velocity increase and want to see if this steadying of the velocity may be a barrel seasoning thing. Sorry about the length, but no quick way to sum this up and testing continues soon with clean barrel. And I do enjoy lemony fresh pellets, as odd as that sounds.
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I just read these posts, and I am interested in testing either T-9 or pledge for lubing my Air Arms 7.9 pellets for my TX200. Do these lubes work well at 880 fps MV?
Background: I recently tuned my TX200 to 13.5 fpe, using a 0.120 Maccari spring on TBT guides. The most accurate pellet for this tune is the AA 7.9gr Express pellets. My rifle is launching them at 880 fps. The down side is that the barrel needs to be cleaned every 400 to 500 shots. Anyone had experience with these lubes at 880 fps velocity?
Thank you!
Fred;
IME, fast pellets prefer T-9
Make sure that you have a CLEAN barrel before changing over, and then allow some shots for the whole thing to "settle". That may require getting down to bare steel and that may mean JB bore paste, or Corbin's Benchrest bore cleaner.
You still need to try both.
DO, please read my note to Mr Blonde about Pledge.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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I got some different brands of pellets for testing, and after seeing how much garbage was in the tin, and my hands after head size sorting I decided to wash and lube. Can't offer many comparisons because I didn't want to put these down my barrel without washing, but some had been previously tested and chrono'd. As far as accuracy I didn't see any difference in Norma GTFT 9.1, they did pretty well dry, and group sizes were about the same, except that instead of an even, consistent group, the pellets clumped together. Like in a 13 shot group, instead of 1 large hole that was circular I would have 3 or 4 pellets in one small hole in one place, then another 3 or 4 in another small hole. Total group size was about the same. So I'm calling that a draw since I really don't know if it's better or worse, velocity was down and ES and SD tripled. Now for a comparison I cleaned and lubed some H&N FTTs, mostly to make sure lube didn't ruin the accuracy on them because that's the gun's favorite. The washing was done, but not much junk came off. Paper towel damp with Pledge, tumbled around in a shoebox . As for accuracy I cannot compare, tested at 40 yards, which I have not tested with dry at that range since the last spring power change. It did excellent, the velocity is up 15-25 fps on 2 different lots, all were gaged to be 4.54mm (so theyre fat and someone mentioned bearing surface) the extreme spreads were very high and SD went up slightly. But after there had been about 100 shots through the gun (mix of Apolo, Norma, and a few H&N) the FTTs recorded 843 fps five times in a row, then 841 and 842. So this sudden change is interesting, and decided it would be best to clean the barrel before testing this further. I still have quite a few washed and lubed, and just lubed a number of others, I didn't wash because I don't think they benefit. I do like the velocity increase and want to see if this steadying of the velocity may be a barrel seasoning thing. Sorry about the length, but no quick way to sum this up and testing continues soon with clean barrel. And I do enjoy lemony fresh pellets, as odd as that sounds.
Jimmy;
I do think your tests are very valuable and point to the fact that each pellet manufacturer uses a slightly different "recipe" for the alloy, and that changes the pellet behaviour in the barrel.
The other thing is that Applied Pledge is not the same as BAKED Pledge. At least my tests show it is a different game.
I stopped using just applied Pledge because I like a uniform coat on the outside of the Pellet with as little as possible on the inside.
Lastly the fact that you are getting two or three very tight sub-groups points to the fact that you are VERY close to an optimum MV; but it also points to the fact that harmonics are tricking you. Using a moveable muzzle weight will allow you to make those 2-4 groups into a single one.
HTH, keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Thanks Hector, but those weird sub groups were from the Norma 9.1 GTFT and I think I am going to continue testing with H&N FTT only for now, but if I get similar oddities with those I will consider the movable weight. Problem Ive found with Norma 9.1 GTFT is that head sizes range anywhere from 4.46 to 4.52 mm, and a lot of swarf, which is odd since the 8.4 GTFT are quite clean and head sizes are pretty consistant, but my gun did not like those. I did throw some of the lubed pellets in the oven for a bit. I was wondering when I was first lubing them a couple weeks ago if I would get a even coating on the pellets. Sounds like you had the same concern, a way to address it, and have tested the difference. Now I just need another weekend when it isn't cold or snowing to test.
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What does BAKED Pledge mean?
Just what it says, Don C:
You put about 150 pellets in a metallic "basket" one of those that are used to hold clips in desks.
Then you incline the basket and take three short squirts of Pledge onto the "empty" side of the basket.
Now you swish around the pellets trying to NOT get any liquid into the skirts.
Once they are all well covered in "goo", you put the metallic basket into a toaster oven (NOT the kitchen, one. There are $5 units at most "dollar stores").
You bake them for 2-3 minutes (2 minutes for 150 pellets from cold oven, 3 minutes for 3 baskets or 500 pellets).
You take out the baskets with pliers, swish them around one more time and let them cool down.
You now have Baked Pledge lubed pellets.
It takes less time to read this instructions than doing it once you have all the elements and have some practice.
It's real easy and I have found that it is even more productive than T-9 for lead pellets in the 740-800 fps region.
;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
What temperature setting? If you're only doing two minutes from cold oven, it sounds like you could just about do this with SWMBO's blow dryer. Just don't tell her I said so...
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What temperature setting? If you're only doing two minutes from cold oven, it sounds like you could just about do this with SWMBO's blow dryer. Just don't tell her I said so...
It’s set on the “Toast” setting. They’re fairly hot when they come out, especially the metal basket. My pellets have a hazy film of pledge on them before the baking. After baking they are nice and shiny with no visible residue.
Steve
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What temperature setting? If you're only doing two minutes from cold oven, it sounds like you could just about do this with SWMBO's blow dryer. Just don't tell her I said so...
[/quote]
I'm saving this screenshot. When an irate lady shows up at your door with a blowdryer in hand saying 'he ruined it', I'll be like Mark told me it was fine! :P
We need to establish a temperature for reproducibility. If thats say 400 degrees F at 2 mins, great. Ideally not from cold as different ovens will have different rates of heating. Ideally a method is come up with that anyone, anywhere can reproduce it.
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As it is indicated in ALL recipes/cooking instructions:
"Appliances very. Adjust accordingly"
LOL!
Having said that, let me give you some figures for those that need them:
Between 350 F and 400 F.
That is the range where most toaster ovens operate. And given the quality of the thermocouples that control the things, I would not be surprised by actual differences between subsequent events in the SAME toaster, to exhibit that variance.
Like any baking, if you put 500 pellets, yes, it is three minutes, if you put less you will need to adjust.
To bake 25 pellets for testing purposes I use 1˝ mins.
I once tried lubing 10 tin pellets, for 1 minute, they melted. :-(
:-)
So, be confident that we are not "Tempering D7 steel in a vacuum oven".
If your $5 toaster oven has a dial for temp (mine doesn't), use 350 F and do a run.
Pellets need to come out real hot (too hot to handle), shiny and bright.
They should cool down in about 10 minutes.
If they are still hazy, then you need more time.
If they "stick" together, or are still too hot to handle after 10 minutes you need less time.
HTH, keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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I looked at toaster ovens on Amazon, cheapest I found was $20. Although I did see one that was adjustable from 150-450 degrees, most just stated 350-400 degrees. Hector thank you for adding a way to tell when your pellets are done baking. I think somebody beat me to the stick a toothpick in joke. Just need a day that is good for shooting. Preliminary results already look good from a few informal groups and fired 40 waxed pellets through the gun after it was cleaned. And if results are good I'll buy a toaster oven.i have 2 batches fron same lot, cleaned and pledged, and pledged and baked.
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Keep us posted, Jimmy!
For a toaster oven I would go to the Dollar store, or to Goodwill.
You REALLY do NOT need anything fancy.
This would be plenty:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mainstays-4-Slice-Toaster-Oven-Black/110900228 (https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mainstays-4-Slice-Toaster-Oven-Black/110900228)
or this, also:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/385482058244?hash=item59c0856a04:g:wOEAAOSwWq1kEkKc (https://www.ebay.com/itm/385482058244?hash=item59c0856a04:g:wOEAAOSwWq1kEkKc)
The OTHER option is to buy a good one and gift it to the wife.
You can then "re-purpose" the older one.
;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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I have heard of plenty of reports on the low quality of Norma pellets. Wouldn't bother using them at all.
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I use a toaster oven to powder paint lead and lead alloy fishing jigs. Get a good oven thermometer and preheat the oven to an effective temperature for your purposes. Lead melts at approximately 450°. If there's tin alloyed in the pellets as many are it may lower the melting temp.
My fishing jigs are various percentages of tin and lead ranging from pure tin to pure lead. I can't say for your purposes. For me it was better to run longer in a pre-heated oven at a temperature set and verified below the melting point than risk melting the jigs. If you think melted pellets are bad. Try powder paint contaminated puddles of lead in the bottom of the oven and worthless new fish hooks hanging from the rack.
Any way I hope you guys can utilize this message well. Bottom line get a good oven thermometer and preheat the oven first. Then play with your bake time. Toaster oven temperature settings can be very wrong.
Good luck
All.
PS Crosman pellets uses a good amount of antimony to harden the lead. Other companies use a lot less. This can change melting temperatures as well. I haven't used antimony alloys in a long time so I can't remember the exact effects on melting temperature.
Also FWIW H&N Green pellets are pure tin keep that in mind if you want to bake them. They will melt much sooner than lead.
Be well
Ron
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So I wanted to experiment with the T9 and I had some H&N Barracuda 18s in 5.52 that most of my guns have not grouped well with, so I thought I'd experiment with those. I put 10 drops of t9, rolled them around for about 5 minutes and let them dry over about 3-4 days.
I started shooting them today out of my Diana 34 T06 Classic, first 10 shots went well, and actually the impacts on the target paper seemed quite small, like they were just 'lasering' through the paper. And then suddenly I heard a dry fire, but I also saw the impact hit the paper.... I checked around me, no pellet on the ground and it had definitely hit the target right where aimed too so it wasn't a pellet cut by the breech.
Then over the next 30 shots.. I had that same dry fire sound occur about 4 different times. This has never happened before when shooting these pellets which says to me they're a looser fit than I realized and that t9 has made them so slick that pellet is no longer sealing well enough and its making it sound like a dry fire. The pellets were on target and from what I recall, the group may have even tightened up vs being unlubed.
Just an interesting experience. So I stopped shooting those pellets because I really really like my 34 Classic and don't want that piston slamming.
Edit: So I switched to my 34 EMS also in .22 and shot 30 of the lubed pellets through it with no issue whatsoever.
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Do you have a crony to validate your hypothesis?
-Y
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Do you have a crony to validate your hypothesis?
-Y
Is the hypothesis you're proposing that the pellets were shooting faster? I do have a crony but I'm not asserting they're shooting faster (maybe they are, it's irrelevant?) but what I am asserting is that multiple pellets have sounded as if a dry fired occurred but were not dry fires from what I can only presume is lower resistance. Its definitely not detonation, theres no smoke, or smell as is commonly associated with that event. My guns are krytox'd out to begin with, not that that would prevent the t9 from detonating if in sufficient quantity.
I just switched to my Webley vulcan in .177 and I had some .177 RWS superdomes that had t9 treatment from a few days ago too, it made the dry fire sound once though still shot a pellet. This happened across a span of about 40 shots.
I've never experienced this behavior and the only variable that has changed is the lubricant on the pellets.
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Yes, but if a dry fire and air moving past the pellet skirt before engaging in pellet skirt, velocities should be less. Perhaps MUCH less if you are getting piston slam.
Can you flair the skirt to fit the breach lede better? In one of HM's early blog posts he talks about which pellets seal with their heads and which seal with their skirt. No sexist comments please. ;D
-Y
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Yes, but if a dry fire and air moving past the pellet skirt before engaging in pellet skirt, velocities should be less. Perhaps MUCH less if you are getting piston slam.
Can you flair the skirt to fit the breach lede better? In one of HM's early blog posts he talks about which pellets seal with their heads and which seal with their skirt. No sexist comments please. ;D
-Y
I don't really want to repeat it because I don't want to keep slamming the piston. (I really like my 34 Classic). I'm just not gonna shoot those lubed pellets in that gun anymore.
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I am wondering about the pledge and temperature. I tried to shoot on Sunday, but it ended up being too windy, but I did get some chrony numbers. Previously with what Hector termed "applied pledge" I was getting around 835-845. Tried pledged pellets that had been baked and was starting at around 805, with velocity climbing each shot, until it got into the 830 fps range. Then took a break, fired another string and it started again at 805 and climbed. There are 2 variables here, one is that the pledge on the pellets from Sunday were baked Pledge, the other was that the temperature was 36 degrees, and the higher numbers were taken on a day when it was 48 and the other day it was 50. So either baking the pellets somehow made them slower or the temperature was affecting it, which I think is likely since as the gun warmed up, velocity increased, and after I took a break and gun cooled down, velocity dropped again. Velocities were also more stable when temps were near 50 degrees. So I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed similar situation.
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Very interesting! If the lubed pellets are temperature sensitive, they are a no-go to me, given that I shoot my guns in widely varying temps.
I don't have access to either Pledge or T9, so can't check for myself.
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Very interesting! If the lubed pellets are temperature sensitive, they are a no-go to me, given that I shoot my guns in widely varying temps.
I don't have access to either Pledge or T9, so can't check for myself.
Agreed. While all this is interesting, since I don't shoot competivly and I get adequate accuracy and power, I'd rather take pellets straight from the tin. I shoot way too many pellets to spend time cooking, weighing them and or sizing them. This all may be worthwhile for competition but I'm typically happy with pellets straight from tin as long as I buy reputable pellets for that particular rifle. That's just me.
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I am wondering about the pledge and temperature. I tried to shoot on Sunday, but it ended up being too windy, but I did get some chrony numbers. Previously with what Hector termed "applied pledge" I was getting around 835-845. Tried pledged pellets that had been baked and was starting at around 805, with velocity climbing each shot, until it got into the 830 fps range. Then took a break, fired another string and it started again at 805 and climbed. There are 2 variables here, one is that the pledge on the pellets from Sunday were baked Pledge, the other was that the temperature was 36 degrees, and the higher numbers were taken on a day when it was 48 and the other day it was 50. So either baking the pellets somehow made them slower or the temperature was affecting it, which I think is likely since as the gun warmed up, velocity increased, and after I took a break and gun cooled down, velocity dropped again. Velocities were also more stable when temps were near 50 degrees. So I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed similar situation.
Jimmy
Like all aerosols, Pledge has a "carrier" and it does not necessarily evaporate as quickly and completely as we think. MOST Pledges also have some "scent" that also needs to put into the mixture with a carrier, PLUS a fixative.
Baking gets rid of BOTH carriers plus the fixative.
That baked pellets start slower and then plateau into a stable MV means that the rifle needs some temperature to operate at a constant rate.
I usually never believe anything before the 7th to 10th pellet, and I usually shoot steel while "warming up". But then, once warmed up, the gun is consistent.
I use Ultimox and it is pretty close to Krytox (as long as it has not absorbed other stuff, like humidity) and I am used to that.
Since rubber seals CONTRACT with temperature, it is possible that your seal was sized for naked pellets, and the seal is now seeing less resistance, therefore needs shots to get down to the proper size.
Just some ideas.
HM
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I switched over to Krytox 206 a while ago, seems to be longer lasting than moly grease. If the gun needs to be warmed up before its consistent, that won't work out too well. This things actual purpose is to keep the red squirrels from eating my garage, so I need to be able to grab it out of the closet and place an accurate shot. It was not meant to be a "recreational " gun at all, but it was just so pleasant to shoot, and experiment with that I have ended up shooting it for fun. My question ended up leading to more questions. As with a lot of shooting related things I will have to find out what it does in my gun, in my situation, with my weather. We'll see if they work out, the lubed pellets are an experiment to me at this point.
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I switched over to Krytox 206 a while ago, seems to be longer lasting than moly grease. If the gun needs to be warmed up before its consistent, that won't work out too well. This things actual purpose is to keep the red squirrels from eating my garage, so I need to be able to grab it out of the closet and place an accurate shot. It was not meant to be a "recreational " gun at all, but it was just so pleasant to shoot, and experiment with that I have ended up shooting it for fun. My question ended up leading to more questions. As with a lot of shooting related things I will have to find out what it does in my gun, in my situation, with my weather. We'll see if they work out, the lubed pellets are an experiment to me at this point.
So if you keep your gun "at the ready", do you leave it cocked and loaded?
-Y
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I have an HPA Chaser conversion that has a very consistant first "cold shot".
The AEA Carbine has a first cold shot that changes poi for the first few pellets.
The Chaser is the one I grab for that solo Starling because of that.
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I switched over to Krytox 206 a while ago, seems to be longer lasting than moly grease. If the gun needs to be warmed up before its consistent, that won't work out too well. This things actual purpose is to keep the red squirrels from eating my garage, so I need to be able to grab it out of the closet and place an accurate shot. It was not meant to be a "recreational " gun at all, but it was just so pleasant to shoot, and experiment with that I have ended up shooting it for fun. My question ended up leading to more questions. As with a lot of shooting related things I will have to find out what it does in my gun, in my situation, with my weather. We'll see if they work out, the lubed pellets are an experiment to me at this point.
We all have our "Rabbit Holes", LOL!
I simply LEARN where the first shot goes.
It is harder to learn where the next 3 shots go, but if you remember where the FIRST one goes, you're good.
MOST springers will exhibit this behaviour, it is an intrinsical part of how springers handle energy. It is not related to lubes or temperatures. It MAY be exacerbated by them, but it is not originated by them.
HTH, keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Don't keep it cocked and loaded, but it's a break barrel, can have it loaded and cocked by the time I get back to the door. If I go to shoot something and end up not getting a shot I leave pellet in chamber and decock
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Well one group doesn't prove anything, but baked pledge sure didn't ruin accuracy, just decided to sight it in at 20 yards. I didn't chrono or anything else, but it put 6 shots under 1/4". It's tied for the second tightest 20 yard group with dry pellets that the gun's ever shot. Probably all I'll do today since I have a leaking sink
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Well, you're off to a good start!
Keep us posted!
HM