GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => German AirGun Gate => Topic started by: Kragman1 on February 09, 2023, 09:04:15 PM
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What's the worst thing you can say about German springers?
Either in general or name a specific brand.
The only thing that comes to my mind is that quality construction comes with weight. (and that can be a good thing!)
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Do not for get they cost a lot. That is my biggest problem with them ;D
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While pricey does not always mean good, cheap usually means.....you wasted what you spent.
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Quality construction can come with weight, especially when it comes to under levers, but I don't know anyone who would call my beloved little HW 30 break barrels heavy or even accuse my HW50 break barrels of being heavy. If we're just talking under levers, yeah, just the nature of the beast to be heavy to do it right.
So, if I were to nitpick my HW springers, it would be that HW stocks are on the clubby and dull side, at least in comparison to my FWB Sports. The Sports actually have a higher listed weight than the HW95L I had, but the 95L just felt like a heavier, chunky gun. It was nowhere near as nice to handle than the FWB Sport and not even in the same ballpark for finish. Yeah, I paid a little more for the Sport, but not that much.
Beyond that, I just hope HW keeps turning out those marvelously reliable durable springers they always have, with or without fancier sticks. :)
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What's the worst thing you can say about German springers?
Either in general or name a specific brand.
The only thing that comes to my mind is that quality construction comes with weight. (and that can be a good thing!)
The only time I'm conscious of the weight is when I shoot my HW90. My HW30, HW35E, Beeman R7 and my RWS Diana 34 Classic all seem solid, but not overly heavy. The Weihrauch stocks aren't the best possible fit for my body; the last thing I do before pulling a Rekord trigger is usually an adjustment of my hold to correct cant.
I sure enjoy the quality although recent QC seems like it might be slipping a bit.
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Specific complaint with a specific brand and model? The Diana 34 series produced before the EMS guns had hard cheap butt plates that would tend to slide too easily on a slick surface. Added to that the front sights were a brittle cheap plastic which would shatter if bumped. I do not know what changes were made in those regards to the EMS series. I do know if Diana had spent a few dollars more on those guns they would have still been an excellent value. They're deadly accurate.
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I’m with Joanie. My number 1 gripe with HW is what they’ve done to their stocks. My 35E with finger grooves is beautiful. Then they changed it. If people are comparing your checkering to a condom you got it wrong LOL. Kim’s 30S Deluxe and 50S, and my 95 Luxus have nice beech stocks. And then there’s my 97K long barrel. The flagship of their lineup with an uninspiring beech stock and possibly the ugliest checkering I’ve ever seen. Kim is the only person I know that likes it. It’s a testament to what a magnificent gun it is that I love it anyway. I’d have gladly paid more for a nicer stock. How bout a little walnut? Especially when your direct competition is offering it.
Not sure QA/QC is what it once was with any of the German springers but that seems to be with everything these days. We’ve been lucky with our HW. No galling, no excessive lube. All my Diana rifles are T05 or older and have beautiful workmanship. Don’t know about the newer ones. Wouldn’t trade any of the rifles we have. But one might get a new stock ha ha ha.
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You all have reminded me of one of my pet peeves - the scarcity of walnut stocks!
Carry on... 😁
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I don't like the ergonimics and balance of most of the Weihrauchs.
Only the HW97k and the HW90 have good (if not great) ergonomics. While the 97 is a bit nose heavy. That is why I like the 90 the most of all Weihrauchs.
And also because the 90 does not galling because of the gasram. Oh that galling sounds soo cheap.
Oh, the stocks are dull for sure ! Then again, I like stock of the 90 in all aspects.
The Diana's are great, albeit sometimes a bit (too) long for my taste. They're a bit more hold sensitive as well (due to the length I guess). Especially in comparison with the German cousins.
The Walthers are getting the least complaints from my side. Basically everything feels 'right' to me. Including the shot cycle. Other than that, the synthetic trigger for that price point does not makes sense to me. Nothing wrong with synthetic parts, but on +$500 springers.... Yes, I know, the Diana T05 trigger is also synthetic. I looove that trigger btw. So maybe I don't need to complain about it and just admit the Walthers are just the perfect German springers for me ;D
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While pricey does not always mean good, cheap usually means.....you wasted what you spent.
Not sure I totally agree with this... I have some impressive sub $300 guns that are not German.
And I'm not afraid to get them out and use them as the tools they were meant to be used for.
I can honestly say... of the many, many guns I have, not one is a safe queen.
If I wanted to keep something in a safe I'd probably buy gold.. ;)
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While pricey does not always mean good, cheap usually means.....you wasted what you spent.
Not sure I totally agree with this... I have some impressive sub $300 guns that are not German.
And I'm not afraid to get them out and use them as the tools they were meant to be used for.
I can honestly say... of the many, many guns I have, not one is a safe queen.
If I wanted to keep something in a safe I'd probably buy gold.. ;)
I have some 'cheap' guns built like tanks and pretty good shooter. B3's, B4's, Crosman break barrels, Turkish and Chinese Win. 1000's and 1100's, Hatsans, etc. I love them all from my ancient B3 to my Diana 56th.
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I think the receiver / tube could be de-burred without calling it hand-fitted and pricey. Yes it would be considered craftsmanship but it's the least you can do. Especially if the precision piston seal has to pass it upon assembly. I'm mainly talking about my 2021 HW95.
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Weihrauch's have crappy safety's
Diana has crappy QC in general in my experience over 4 or 5 rifles
FWB's only springer right now is over powered
I mean those are the things that come to mind. None of them are meant to indicate they all stink or whatever as I absolutely love my German springer's but those are the things that immediately come to mind.
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I see a lot of comments about the weight and clubbiness of the HW's especially underlevers. My 35e has a nice walnut stock, I wish I had gotten it sooner so I could have had a finger groove vs checkered forearm. As far as ergonomics, I am under the impression that most have not tried an HW 57, yes the pop up breech can be a little fiddley, but excels in several things in my opinion. It is very lightweight compared to any other underlever I have tried, lighter than my 35e, handles and points very well and is easy to cock. The gunshop up in the NE that I ordered them from said that they had been tuned,just have to take their word for it. I did have to lube the breech block so it would push down a little easier, but no big deal. As far as accuracy, I see no problem, It is much like a revolver in that the pellet has to make a slight jump from the breech block to the rifling. For a field carry gun I would put it up there with a HW 50, 35e or my FWB 124d
I do not like what Weirhauch has done with a lot of their stocks, that cut out on the bottom of the buttstock, and would prefer the finger groove over their current checkering pattern, which I think should be more symmetrical end to end , like the patterns on some of the old classic bolt action rifles, not shaped like an artillery shell.
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Aside from the occasional QC issues of Diana's, I firmly believe their latest batch of iron sights are atrocious. Particularly the rear sights with their wide notch. And a huge ding goes toward their fragility. The rear sights are made of some weak cast pot metal and the notch component will just shear right off if the rifle takes a tumble and lands on its back.
I've had three rifles now come to me with broken rear sights like this.
(https://i.imgur.com/ITbscwrl.jpg)
The delicate plastic front sight hood of the T06 D34 is also prone to shattering under such stress.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZWyk5Zpl.jpg)
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Thank God Hitler did not get his hands on them! ;D
-Y
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As far as I can tell, there are NO German springers that didn't have "what were they thinking?!" type of features in them. It's just a question of what amounts to a dealbreaker to you.
The Weihrauch quasi-safety, the Walther pot metal trigger casing, the Diana screw-on front screw yoke, the FWB piston seal attachment...the list goes on.
Add to this the general lousy mainsprings, nicked piston seals, unfitted spring guides, burry internals and completely wrong lubing, and you might begin to feel cheated.
I can tell you I was stunned to learn years back when I entered the springer game for real, that even when you shell out 400 - 600 bucks for a Made in Germany gun, you're best off disassembling the purchase on the spot and start making it right, bit by bit.
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As a german. If we already make POM spring guides - why don't we use the a size in our rifles that's more snug so there's no twang. I can't understand it. At least do away with guides that have like 2mm of slack in it. ::)
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Worst thing I can say about German springers is I don't have enough $$ to buy all the different models. ;)
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The Weihrauch tear down procedures are pretty silly. The only ones I really don't mind are the 97K style threaded end cap. The 50S style with the press in tabs is just goofy. That being said, the cleaner lines definitely add to the aesthetics of the guns so the extra couple of minutes to take them apart ends up being a wash for me.
The only other negative I can say is that a lot of the newer Weihrauchs are all coming WAAAY over lubed from the factory. As a tinkerer thats not a huge deal but for someone who doesn't know what they're doing it could pose a problem.
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As a german. If we already make POM spring guides - why don't we use the a size in our rifles that's more snug so there's no twang. I can't understand it. At least do away with guides that have like 2mm of slack in it. ::)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS!
Can't be that hard.
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The little blocks that hold the trigger housing in place, are there to keep the housing from twisting from torque that's caused by the spring release in a HW rifle, but I agree I like the threaded end caps better, The HW guns fit me better than the Diana rifles do other than the 48 or 460 type guns, even at that I prefer the HW rifles over the rest offered out there and there build quality is excellent most of the time, maybe not perfect out of the box but that's why we tune them, springers and I have not seen 1 yet that does not need tuned up from out of the box! Whether it's a lube job or a full tune! IMO HW's are still the best bang for the buck and I think most HW owners who have owned various other models like I have will tell you the same thing like it or not! HW's for what you get ' again are the best bang for the buck and built for a life time if you keep them tuned up properly and care for them, ;)
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Without question HWs are the best bang for your buck and they have a model that fits basically any need you could have for a springer. I missed the previous comment about the loose spring guides but that's absolutely a great point. Definitely room for improvement there. That does give me a reason to play with the lathe so I'm not going to complain.
I will say this though, no matter how much I love my Weihrauchs, Walther had them beat with the LGU and LGV. Once you get the trigger situations taken care of on those guns they can't be beat imo. Its ashame they killed that lineup. I do prefer the newer (and also discontinued) FWB Sport over the HW95 as well. My only complaint on that gun is that I don't like the scope stop system but the irons are so well done I don't mind. Given the price tags that were on the LGU, LGV, and FWB though Weihrauch was/is still king of "bang for your buck"
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They are all but impossible to get here in Canada! I could complain all day about the ergonomics of the early Diana 34’s but have no issues with my TO5 34 Classic or k length Weihrauchs.
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Most German springers are too long. The Brits had the right idea with the Lightning and Stingray Carbine.
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Most German springers are too long. The Brits had the right idea with the Lightning and Stingray Carbine.
+1 !
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Most German springers are too long. The Brits had the right idea with the Lightning and Stingray Carbine.
The HW80 SLK gives me hope for a proper length German gun.
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Their lengths are at least pretty close to right. Most of my rimfires fall in that 38-43" mark as well. Add on a muzzle device and easily 6" longer. The 97K and 50S are a very comfortable 40" while the 95 and 80SLK are about 42-43". Even most reasonably powered Gamo rifles are 45" while the Gamo Magnum is pushing 50" (similar to the Dianas). Let's not even start on Hatsans lengths haha
I'm not saying they couldn't be shorter, but for the most part they are on par for the industry.
As a side note, the 80SL and SLK are also rated at two different power levels on Krale. Not sure if that has to do with the shorter barrel or f maybe they softened the spring to make it easier to cock with the shorter barrel. Could also be a typo?
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Dan, I would agree but their market was for the 12lb market and IMO there's nothing wrong with that. but you power those rifles up to 14ftlbs and it changes the game, I have owned a bunch of English made Lightnings and Webley's or other rifles marked under those manufactured names like Beeman by Webley and in FAC powered versions they are very different guns, IMO harsh in shooting cycle, triggers are not that great IMO, and you cannot do that much with them, I compare the Lightning XL to a HW50, and the 50 wins in every category! Along any of the Webley guns, JMO :o
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Their lengths are at least pretty close to right. Most of my rimfires fall in that 38-43" mark as well. Add on a muzzle device and easily 6" longer. The 97K and 50S are a very comfortable 40" while the 95 and 80SLK are about 42-43". Even most reasonably powered Gamo rifles are 45" while the Gamo Magnum is pushing 50" (similar to the Dianas). Let's not even start on Hatsans lengths haha
I'm not saying they couldn't be shorter, but for the most part they are on par for the industry.
As a side note, the 80SL and SLK are also rated at two different power levels on Krale. Not sure if that has to do with the shorter barrel or f maybe they softened the spring to make it easier to cock with the shorter barrel. Could also be a typo?
FWIW, My HW95L .22 is 41.875", 1063.625 mm from end of moderator to butt center.