GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: PelletSport on January 25, 2023, 02:33:05 AM
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Hi.
From reviews and personal experience I am extremely impressed with SAG barrels:
Steve Scially shot a 1.19" group with the sub $200 qb Chief at 100yds (with only 25 ft lbs!)
JC at Airgun Detectives just called the SAG-made Barra 1100z the best new entry level pcp.
The qb78 is legendary for accuracy within the limits of its power.
I am obviously a fan, so I may be a bit blinded.
Any thoughts on who might give SAG competition in the same price range?
Thank you!
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Xisico does make excellent barrels too. My XS60C rifle, XSP180 pistol, and Browning Leverage underlever (XS46U) are all superb shooters for the reasonnable amount of money they cost. I do have another break barrel rifle, a Canadian Hunter D18 in .22, it's a re-branded BAM (Xisico) XS-B11 and it's also a super nice shooter. Ah, and let's not forget the BAM B4-2 underlever in .22, amazing too! Only gripe I have is against the Xisico plastic sights.
I fully agree that SAG airguns are hard to beat, I have 4 QB78 and they're all tack drivers. My .177 and one .22 now have LW barrels (.177 and .25), only because I got very friendly prices on the fully machined and blued barrels. The original barrels were used to re-barrel a couple vintage american airguns, and I'm real glad I did that!
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Thanks for all the good and timely info!
I was speaking with lillysdad621 about qb's with LW barrels just today!
Since LW seems to be the gold standard, how did your SAG barrels compare to the LW barrels as far as accuracy and pellet-pickiness?
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Where are you buying the xisco model selection listed? Flying Dragon only currently lists 4 models. Is there another good supplier in North America?
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Xisico does make excellent barrels too. My XS60C rifle, XSP180 pistol, and Browning Leverage underlever (XS46U) are all superb shooters for the reasonnable amount of money they cost. I do have another break barrel rifle, a Canadian Hunter D18 in .22, it's a re-branded BAM (Xisico) XS-B11 and it's also a super nice shooter. Ah, and let's not forget the BAM B4-2 underlever in .22, amazing too! Only gripe I have is against the Xisico plastic sights.
I fully agree that SAG airguns are hard to beat, I have 4 QB78 and they're all tack drivers. My .177 and one .22 now have LW barrels (.177 and .25), only because I got very friendly prices on the fully machined and blued barrels. The original barrels were used to re-barrel a couple vintage american airguns, and I'm real glad I did that!
Also, I would love to hear about your LW .25 qb78. Lillysdad621 and I have a shared fascination with higher caliber, lower power pesters. What might be called a 'garden gun'. (I am amazed at the results British airgunners get with .25 at only 11ish ftlbs.)
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so is the Icon a sag.. ;)
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Xisico does make excellent barrels too. My XS60C rifle, XSP180 pistol, and Browning Leverage underlever (XS46U) are all superb shooters for the reasonnable amount of money they cost. I do have another break barrel rifle, a Canadian Hunter D18 in .22, it's a re-branded BAM (Xisico) XS-B11 and it's also a super nice shooter. Ah, and let's not forget the BAM B4-2 underlever in .22, amazing too! Only gripe I have is against the Xisico plastic sights.
I fully agree that SAG airguns are hard to beat, I have 4 QB78 and they're all tack drivers. My .177 and one .22 now have LW barrels (.177 and .25), only because I got very friendly prices on the fully machined and blued barrels. The original barrels were used to re-barrel a couple vintage american airguns, and I'm real glad I did that!
Also, I would love to hear about your LW .25 qb78. Lillysdad621 and I have a shared fascination with higher caliber, lower power pesters. What might be called a 'garden gun'. (I am amazed at the results British airgunners get with .25 at only 11ish ftlbs.)
A ''garden gun'', I love that! My .25 LW QB is tuned to shoot a 20.06 grains H&N FTT in the 490s with CO2, just under 11 fpe. With HPA I guess it would shoot in the 12-13ish fpe, never tried it though. I don't hunt, but I'm sure it would be a formidable short-to-medium range pester with its stellar accuracy, and maybe heavier pellets. For the life of me I can't remember how many shots I get, I think it was something like 26-28 with two carts but don't take my word on that. Happy hunting!
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Since LW seems to be the gold standard, how did your SAG barrels compare to the LW barrels as far as accuracy and pellet-pickiness?
I have several QBs with what I consider to be very good barrels but the mere fact that most LW pellet barrels are choked gives them a distinct advantage in terms of pellet pickiness.
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Where are you buying the xisco model selection listed? Flying Dragon only currently lists 4 models. Is there another good supplier in North America?
The XS60C and XS46U are still in production AFAIK, I bought them here in Canada a couple years ago. Except for Flying Dragon, I'm not aware of another Xisico seller in the U.S. . All the other models listed are unfortunately no longer made.
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Thanks for all the good and timely info!
I was speaking with lillysdad621 about qb's with LW barrels just today!
Since LW seems to be the gold standard, how did your SAG barrels compare to the LW barrels as far as accuracy and pellet-pickiness?
They were not pellet-picky, this is their most admirable feature, and hard to tell if there's a difference in accuracy. As good as the LW for that, I could have left the rifles alone ;).
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My .25 LW QB is tuned to shoot a 20.06 grains H&N FTT in the 490s with CO2, just under 11 fpe. With HPA I guess it would shoot in the 12-13ish fpe, never tried it though.
FWIW I've built a few QBs that I've alternated between CO2 and air, and generally find that running on air with a bell curve roughly centered on CO2 pressure will yield at least 50% more energy. That surprised me the first time I ran a back-to-back test. In the following thread I solicited comments and Ribbonstone shared some numbers that aligned with that relationship but admittedly there are a number of variables that could potentially sway the outcome.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=176104 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=176104)
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I currently own 6 SPA guns and all of them are good shooters. It shows that they CAN make a great barrel when they pay attention. Both of my .25s came through Wes at Airgun Archery Fun and they are very accurate. I'm not sure if he does any work to them or not.
My .25 Bandit is running at 14 fpe on 800 psi hpa and my .25 Stormrider is doing 21 fpe with a 100 bar reg setting. I suppose that might qualify them for garden gun status.
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My .25 LW QB is tuned to shoot a 20.06 grains H&N FTT in the 490s with CO2, just under 11 fpe. With HPA I guess it would shoot in the 12-13ish fpe, never tried it though.
FWIW I've built a few QBs that I've alternated between CO2 and air, and generally find that running on air with a bell curve roughly centered on CO2 pressure will yield at least 50% more energy. That surprised me the first time I ran a back-to-back test. In the following thread I solicited comments and Ribbonstone shared some numbers that aligned with that relationship but admittedly there are a number of variables that could potentially sway the outcome.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=176104 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=176104)
Interesting thread, I need to read that after a few hours of sleep ??? ;D.
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BSA/Gamo still rules as far as very good barrels on a budget rifle.. ;)
but having a blast with my icon... Found my K.O. 13.4g tune for it... power adjuster at .41" in...
3000 929
2800 949
2600 935
2300 919
2100 890
sent some CPUM in between the above shots...
did a 10.5 2900 psi string
1026 at 2900
up to 1040 at shot 3 and stays there till 6th &7th at 1036... then 1038 at shot ten... then the falling string starts...at about 2600 psi...from 1020 down to 968 fps at 20th shot at 2100 psi...
4 shot groups cause I have 16 Shots at ~26 fpe with the K.O. 13.43... Dry blurry eyes from new medication or would be a bit better...
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BSA/Gamo still rules as far as very good barrels on a budget rifle.. ;)
but having a blast with my icon... Found my K.O. 13.4g tune for it... power adjuster at .41" in...
3000 929
2800 949
2600 935
2300 919
2100 890
sent some CPUM in between the above shots...
did a 10.5 2900 psi string
1026 at 2900
up to 1040 at shot 3 and stays there till 6th &7th at 1036... then 1038 at shot ten... then the falling string starts...at about 2600 psi...from 1020 down to 968 fps at 20th shot at 2100 psi...
4 shot groups cause I have 16 Shots at ~26 fpe with the K.O. 13.43... Dry blurry eyes from new medication or would be a bit better...
Those are great numbers. Maybe I should have bought a .177 Icon instead of the Bullshark.
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Is the Beeman Chief ll a SAG? I am just working up a brand new one, have had the barrel off twice doing barrel band stuff and the barrel looks excellent with my old eyes. Lead is good, crown is good and the rifling is very good looking. have fired maybe 60 pellets so far and the feeding into the lead is very smooth. First 30 shots at 25 Yards shooting shot string through Chronograph.
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Is the Beeman Chief ll a SAG? I am just working up a brand new one, have had the barrel off twice doing barrel band stuff and the barrel looks excellent with my old eyes. Lead is good, crown is good and the rifling is very good looking. have fired maybe 60 pellets so far and the feeding into the lead is very smooth. First 30 shots at 25 Yards shooting shot string through Chronograph.
I believe all QB-based airguns are made by SAG. I'm not surprised by your findings and target results ;).
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I am the proud owner of not one but two AR2078-B's.
I enjoyed mine so much, when Covid-19 was JUST rearing it's ugly head in China, I saw them starting to become scarce so I bought a second for my S.I.L. but it's still here. (He is a PB boy) so I claimed it. My original is starting to show it's age but the second is like new... but is very seldom shot.
While details vary, there is something special about the "B", other than being a sidelever, in the barrel. Reports say "choked" and slugging mine it is true.
Both rival the accuracy of my FWB 300S at 10M... even out to 30 yards.
Seems the limiting factor is the loose nut behind the trigger (me).
Now.. that said, when they arrived the barrel was FILTHY! It took 10 patches, 3 wet and 7 follow-up dry, to get out what ever brown gunk they had in the bore... ether intentional to protect it or accidental machining residue.
What ever "Fairy Dust" is in those guns is nothing short of amazing for $170, 5 years ago.
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Thanks for all the good and timely info!
I was speaking with lillysdad621 about qb's with LW barrels just today!
Since LW seems to be the gold standard, how did your SAG barrels compare to the LW barrels as far as accuracy and pellet-pickiness?
They were not pellet-picky, this is their most admirable feature, and hard to tell if there's a difference in accuracy. As good as the LW for that, I could have left the rifles alone ;).
Thanks for all the good info, Francois!
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Since LW seems to be the gold standard, how did your SAG barrels compare to the LW barrels as far as accuracy and pellet-pickiness?
I have several QBs with what I consider to be very good barrels but the mere fact that most LW pellet barrels are choked gives them a distinct advantage in terms of pellet pickiness.
Thanks! I did not know (or forgot) that LW's are choked.
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BSA/Gamo still rules as far as very good barrels on a budget rifle.. ;)
but having a blast with my icon... Found my K.O. 13.4g tune for it... power adjuster at .41" in...
3000 929
2800 949
2600 935
2300 919
2100 890
sent some CPUM in between the above shots...
did a 10.5 2900 psi string
1026 at 2900
up to 1040 at shot 3 and stays there till 6th &7th at 1036... then 1038 at shot ten... then the falling string starts...at about 2600 psi...from 1020 down to 968 fps at 20th shot at 2100 psi...
4 shot groups cause I have 16 Shots at ~26 fpe with the K.O. 13.43... Dry blurry eyes from new medication or would be a bit better...
Nice! Yes, I am 99% sure the Icon is SAG.
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Forgot to attach this...
200 - 8X.
Not too shabby ;)
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I am the proud owner of not one but two AR2078-B's.
I enjoyed mine so much, when Covid-19 was JUST rearing it's ugly head in China, I saw them starting to become scarce so I bought a second for my S.I.L. but it's still here. (He is a PB boy) so I claimed it. My original is starting to show it's age but the second is like new... but is very seldom shot.
While details vary, there is something special about the "B", other than being a sidelever, in the barrel. Reports say "choked" and slugging mine it is true.
Both rival the accuracy of my FWB 300S at 10M... even out to 30 yards.
Seems the limiting factor is the loose nut behind the trigger (me).
Now.. that said, when they arrived the barrel was FILTHY! It took 10 patches, 3 wet and 7 follow-up dry, to get out what ever brown gunk they had in the bore... ether intentional to protect it or accidental machining residue.
What ever "Fairy Dust" is in those guns is nothing short of amazing for $170, 5 years ago.
Scott, I had no idea SAG choked a barrel! Thanks for the comparisons, too. BTW, I have heard some manufacturers leave the barrel greasy on purpose to protect it. It would be nice if that is true, ha ha!
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'Tis true! a definite restriction about 3/4 up from the breech to muzzle on both.
I think the brown stuff cleaned out is to protect the bore for storage and over seas salt water journey.
I just wish SAG would quit pu$$y footing around and relaese the 1380 from Shot Show 2020!
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=183857.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=183857.0)
(https://www.pyramydair.com/images/PY-5190_Beeman-177-PCP-Competition_1589822200.jpg)
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'Tis true! a definite restriction about 3/4 up from the breech to muzzle on both.
I think the brown stuff cleaned out is to protect the bore for storage and over seas salt water journey.
I just wish SAG would quit pu$$y footing around and relaese the 1380 from Shot Show 2020!
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=183857.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=183857.0)
(https://www.pyramydair.com/images/PY-5190_Beeman-177-PCP-Competition_1589822200.jpg)
Wow! It looks like a Steyer or a Walther. The trigger looks world class.
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I also have a couple of 2078b's... nice guns for sure.
They are really sweet shooters(been fond of co2 )
I have one NOS. PM me if interested..won't be cheap.
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Hi.
From reviews and personal experience I am extremely impressed with SAG barrels:
Steve Scially shot a 1.19" group with the sub $200 qb Chief at 100yds (with only 25 ft lbs!)
JC at Airgun Detectives just called the SAG-made Barra 1100z the best new entry level pcp.
The qb78 is legendary for accuracy within the limits of its power.
I am obviously a fan, so I may be a bit blinded.
Any thoughts on who might give SAG competition in the same price range?
Thank you!
OK Right off the Top what's "SAG" barrels super secret special code for?
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Shanghai Air Gun
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Hi.
From reviews and personal experience I am extremely impressed with SAG barrels:
Steve Scially shot a 1.19" group with the sub $200 qb Chief at 100yds (with only 25 ft lbs!)
JC at Airgun Detectives just called the SAG-made Barra 1100z the best new entry level pcp.
The qb78 is legendary for accuracy within the limits of its power.
I am obviously a fan, so I may be a bit blinded.
Any thoughts on who might give SAG competition in the same price range?
Thank you!
OK Right off the Top what's "SAG" barrels super secret special code for?
To expand on Eddie's answer: Shanghai Air Gun (S/R Industries, in the USA) manufactures all Chinese Beemans: qg78, qb chief, Beeman 1358 underlever and rs2 springers are the high notes. Also, SAG makes the Barra 1100z and their springers. Black ops is another. The Crosman Icon appears to be a SAG Beeman Precicion Airguns Commander with a synthetic stock. SAG's dual .177 and .22 barrel springer package is unique on the market, too. I have several SAG's in co2, pcp, spring, and they all have very accurate barrels for the price. Another example, Lillysdad621 shot a 1 inch group with my $105, 18 ftlb RS2 Beeman longhorn at 40 yds with the stock scope and Walmart Crosman .177 pellets. He was amazed because it is a magnum, and thought it was capable of half that with a scope swap and sorted pellets alone. As I said in the 1st post, I am a fan! Ha ha!
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While tuning up a friend's .177 SAG QB78, I found that a little tweaking yielded good results. Quarter-inch groups with Crosman Destroyers at ten yards are now the norm. Half-inch groups were originally the best that it would do. It prefers wadcutter type pellets, unlike the original QB77. This rifle didn't suffer from as many sharp (undressed) edges as the Beeman .22 that I have did.
I did find a patch of bad rifling about six inches from the breech, but it doesn't seem to affect the accuracy. Thoroughly cleaning and lightly lapping the bore helped, but removing the barrel-band and semi-free-floating the barrel helped more. Adding a cardboard and painter's tape cheek-piece tightened the groups some more. Their stocks do leave much be desired.
I just wish they were made in America...
J~
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While tuning up a friend's .177 SAG QB78, I found that a little tweaking yielded good results. Quarter-inch groups with Crosman Destroyers at ten yards are now the norm. Half-inch groups were originally the best that it would do. It prefers wadcutter type pellets, unlike the original QB77. This rifle didn't suffer from as many sharp (undressed) edges as the Beeman .22 that I have did.
I did find a patch of bad rifling about six inches from the breech, but it doesn't seem to affect the accuracy. Thoroughly cleaning and lightly lapping the bore helped, but removing the barrel-band and semi-free-floating the barrel helped more. Adding a cardboard and painter's tape cheek-piece tightened the groups some more. Their stocks do leave much be desired.
I just wish they were made in America...
J~
Nice groups and cudos on the build! I have never seen a free floated qb. It makes sense since high-end pcp makers all seem to float the barrel. I like the shim you put in place of the barrel band, too.
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Nice groups and cudos on the build! I have never seen a free floated qb. It makes sense since high-end pcp makers all seem to float the barrel. I like the shim you put in place of the barrel band, too.
Thanks!
I did forget one thing... The burrs that we usually find on the interior of the barrel breech at the transfer port. Once they're dressed, accuracy tends to improve dramatically.
The spacer is part of one from an old SSP-250. It's now secured with a dab of silicone. I plan to drill and tap the breech for a couple more grub-screws to better secure the barrel.
I have to give credit where it's due. Ribbonstone (Robert) taught me everything I needed to know when it comes to these guns.
Stay safe,
J~
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Nice groups and cudos on the build! I have never seen a free floated qb. It makes sense since high-end pcp makers all seem to float the barrel. I like the shim you put in place of the barrel band, too.
Thanks!
I did forget one thing... The burrs that we usually find on the interior of the barrel breech at the transfer port. Once they're dressed, accuracy tends to improve dramatically.
The spacer is part of one from an old SSP-250. It's now secured with a dab of silicone. I plan to drill and tap the breech for a couple more grub-screws to better secure the barrel.
I have to give credit where it's due. Ribbonstone (Robert) taught me everything I needed to know when it comes to these guns.
Stay safe,
J~
Thanks for the barrel dressing tips and the heads-up on Ribbonstone. I will look up his posts.
My never-sell-it favorite air rifle is a custom bulk fill pcp/co2 qb78s in .177 built to order by AustinB. He did a wonderful job on the breech and crown, and the rifling is very nice.. I call it my Chinese Air Arms s200, ha ha, it is accurate!