GTA
Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 and springers ,rams => Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 => Topic started by: simko on October 12, 2022, 09:19:00 AM
-
HI Team
I'm tired of pumping up the tank on my condor, the P-rod i have is fine but the condor tank is just too darn big. I have a brand new yong heng sitting in my basement. Don't have the budget for a SCBA tank right now so will likely direct fill my condor with the compressor.
I was wondering if there are any suggestions on adding things to help with the longevity of the compressor AND my guns.
I was thinking of a bucket of water with a frozen soda bottle to keep things nice and cool, what about filters for the gun... how about this? https://airgunarcheryfun.ca/new-agh-extra-large-pcp-compressor-filter/
Should I be focusing on anything else? Any advice really appreciated.
-
That filter should work fine but you want to understand the capacity of that filter is probably larger than the capacity of your gun so each time you fill the gun your are filling both. Not that it's a bad thing, just something to consider.
Best thing you can do for the compressor is oil changes. Best you can do for the gun is filter media changes. I use the smaller filters on mine that use the tampons approx 1/2" diameter and 2" long. I use one of my YH compressors to top off guns directly and another to top off SBCA tanks. I check for moisture in the filter after every run on the tank filler and every 4 or 5 fills on the gun filler.
You're going to hear many mixed opinions on this topic and I don't argue with any of them.. this is just what I do.
-
For filling the guns directly you probably don't even need the frozen soda bottle, a couple of gallons of room-temp water in a reservoir (I use an ice chest) should be sufficient. The compressor is made to operate at a somewhat high temperature (it's in the manual), and I think one could argue that running it too cool may actually be worse for it than running at the optimal temperature.
Agree with changing the oil, and there is some info on here about a "special" oil that should be used to prevent catastrophic failure. I just use the oil that the manual recommends, but I'm also just direct filling guns, not tanks.
Regarding filtering, some of use think that all the extra moisture filters people use are about as useful as a rock that keeps away tigers. If I'm wrong, I'm pretty sure that I can replace the air tube on most of my guns for a lot less $$ than people are spending on fancy moisture filters. I think I paid about $20 for a Disco air tube from Crosman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSVqLHghLpw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSVqLHghLpw)
-
Good point Adam.
-
I'll say that I agree with the points on the water temp and the oil, but have to put a qualification on the "tiger rock" point:
It may be true that the desiccant filters are somewhat overkill when direct filling guns with smaller tanks to 3000 psi or so with these compressors, but it absolutely is not the case when filling larger tanks at pressures up to 4000 psi and up with these compressors. Moisture transmission is all about amount of water vapor that can be carried in the air charge, and not about the liquid water that condenses out in the traps in the pump. Thus the temperature of the air charge is the critical factor - as it goes up, the amount of water vapor in the air charge goes up because the air charge out of a high pressure compressor without active drying by an appropriate "filter" is always at 100% relative humidity for that temperature and pressure. So a short run of a lower pressure fill will result in a lower charge temp and thus less vapor passed to the reservoir, compared to the higher temperature air charge that results from longer runs at higher pressures to fill a tank. This virtually guarantees that enough water vapor makes it into the tank to condense out into water as the tank cools down, and it will build up over time if one fills tanks without "drying" the air appropriately. Of course I am not saying this will make the tank "explode", but it will eventually fail from having water in it at high pressure over time.
So if filling CF tanks to use to fill your guns, do dry your air . . . . that's no "tiger rock" situation.
-
bucket of water with ice dumped in from the fridge ice maker
forget the dessicant gold filters
get a coalescing filter
coalescing filters are way better than dessicant of cotton filters.
-
coalescing filters are way better than dessicant of cotton filters.
Sorry, but I have to disagree with this too . . .
A coalescing filter is designed to "coalesce" - or to gather up - liquid water (or other material) droplets that are in the air charge. They are principally intended for situations where the air is going to be used almost immediately - think air powered tools and a shop compressor. These filters remove all the liquid water that is in the air charge before the air gets to the air tool through gravity, spinning and other such mechanical actions (some even use electrostatic forces too).
But that usage is not what we are doing in our use of these compressors, by the very definition of the PCP use: we are Pre-Charging. Thus the air is being compressed for use later in time. That leads to the critical factor in all of this: The air charge typically starts out warm, and then cools down as it sits over time.
Take this as a given, as it is true (I can explain more it needed though): the air coming out of the compressor (or out of any post-compression cotton or coalescing filter) will be at an RH (relative humidity) of 100% for that pressure and temperature. As it cools further, that "excess" water vapor absolutely will condense out into liquid water, as by definition the cooler air charge will not be able to hold as much vapor as it did when it was warmer - the charge becomes saturated, and liquid water results.
Thus the critical factor is the temperature of the air charge as it enters the reservoir. These Yong Heng style compressors put out hot compressed air - if the compressor is showing temperatures of 50-60 degrees C, you can be sure the air is a lot warmer than that - after all, the heat in the compressor is coming from the air being compressed. If the metal of the compressor is that hot, it has absorbed the heat from the air charge, but of course it can't absorb all of it.
Compressed air at "room temperature" and 3000 psi can hold less than about 0.1 gram of water as vapor per standard cubic meter of air (meaning the volume of air before compression), and about only half of that when further compressed to 4500 psi. As a reference, that cubic meter of air is about what gets compressed into a 30 minute tank to take it from 3000 to 4500 psi twice, and it even insanely dry desert air will start with over three grams of water as vapor in that cubic meter (and probably approaching 20 grams in very warm humid conditions).
If the air coming out of the Yong Heng style compressor is at ~60C (and it probably is much warmer than that) it will hold about a gram of water as vapor in that same amount of compressed air. If compressing to 4500, it again will hold roughly half that. That leaves a lot of water vapor to condense out with every fill of the tank. Remember that one gram of water vapor can condense out to one gram of liquid water, and that one gram of liquid water has a volume of 1 cubic centimeter - so we talking about a good amount of potential liquid water - fill that 30 minute tank straight from a Yong Heng ten times and it could have about 5 cc of water in it already (if not more).
I'll repeat is one more time: It is all about the temperature of the air charge as it enters the reservoir. That defines the amount of water vapor that has to be managed. Run the compressor for a very short time, like filling a small reservoir, and more of the heat will be absorbed by the compressor, thus less vapor will pass through. Run it longer, like when filling a tank, and the temperature will quickly rise and more vapor will pass. This is why a properly used hand pump has no issues - the air charge cools with the dwell time of each stroke, condensing out the water vapor in the base of the pump (take too many pump strokes and vapor will pass because the base gets hot).
All that said, a coalescing filter can actually do some good - by absorbing more of the heat in the air charge, thus also condensing out water vapor. I like the idea of putting one in a bucket of ice water - but do know that this won't get the air charge all the way down to ambient in long fill sessions, given that the speeds these compressors run at and the density of the air under compression (ever notice that it takes a filled tank hours to cool down, even when filled in a bucket of chilled water at a dive shop?). With that in mind, a good coalescing filter might be better than a cotton filter - but not better than a good desiccant filter.
If you really want to manage the water vapor in the air charge, an appropriately sized desiccant filter is the best way to go for most of us. After all, there really are only two ways to "dry the air" in the pre-charging manner that we use our pumps - actively absorb the water vapor in the air (with desiccants) or chill the charge to the final usage temperature before it gets to the reservoir (with chillers). The problem with chillers is that they increase the amount of air we need to compress before we even get air to the tank . . .
-
coalescing filters are way better than dessicant of cotton filters.
Sorry, but I have to disagree with this too . . .
A coalescing filter is designed to "coalesce" - or to gather up - liquid water (or other material) droplets that are in the air charge. They are principally intended for situations where the air is going to be used almost immediately - think air powered tools and a shop compressor. These filters remove all the liquid water that is in the air charge before the air gets to the air tool through gravity, spinning and other such mechanical actions (some even use electrostatic forces too).
But that usage is not what we are doing in our use of these compressors, by the very definition of the PCP use: we are Pre-Charging. Thus the air is being compressed for use later in time. That leads to the critical factor in all of this: The air charge typically starts out warm, and then cools down as it sits over time.
Take this as a given, as it is true (I can explain more it needed though): the air coming out of the compressor (or out of any post-compression cotton or coalescing filter) will be at an RH (relative humidity) of 100% for that pressure and temperature. As it cools further, that "excess" water vapor absolutely will condense out into liquid water, as by definition the cooler air charge will not be able to hold as much vapor as it did when it was warmer - the charge becomes saturated, and liquid water results.
Thus the critical factor is the temperature of the air charge as it enters the reservoir. These Yong Heng style compressors put out hot compressed air - if the compressor is showing temperatures of 50-60 degrees C, you can be sure the air is a lot warmer than that - after all, the heat in the compressor is coming from the air being compressed. If the metal of the compressor is that hot, it has absorbed the heat from the air charge, but of course it can't absorb all of it.
Compressed air at "room temperature" and 3000 psi can hold less than about 0.1 gram of water as vapor per standard cubic meter of air (meaning the volume of air before compression), and about only half of that when further compressed to 4500 psi. As a reference, that cubic meter of air is about what gets compressed into a 30 minute tank to take it from 3000 to 4500 psi twice, and it even insanely dry desert air will start with over three grams of water as vapor in that cubic meter (and probably approaching 20 grams in very warm humid conditions).
If the air coming out of the Yong Heng style compressor is at ~60C (and it probably is much warmer than that) it will hold about a gram of water as vapor in that same amount of compressed air. If compressing to 4500, it again will hold roughly half that. That leaves a lot of water vapor to condense out with every fill of the tank. Remember that one gram of water vapor can condense out to one gram of liquid water, and that one gram of liquid water has a volume of 1 cubic centimeter - so we talking about a good amount of potential liquid water - fill that 30 minute tank straight from a Yong Heng ten times and it could have about 5 cc of water in it already (if not more).
I'll repeat is one more time: It is all about the temperature of the air charge as it enters the reservoir. That defines the amount of water vapor that has to be managed. Run the compressor for a very short time, like filling a small reservoir, and more of the heat will be absorbed by the compressor, thus less vapor will pass through. Run it longer, like when filling a tank, and the temperature will quickly rise and more vapor will pass. This is why a properly used hand pump has no issues - the air charge cools with the dwell time of each stroke, condensing out the water vapor in the base of the pump (take too many pump strokes and vapor will pass because the base gets hot).
All that said, a coalescing filter can actually do some good - by absorbing more of the heat in the air charge, thus also condensing out water vapor. I like the idea of putting one in a bucket of ice water - but do know that this won't get the air charge all the way down to ambient in long fill sessions, given that the speeds these compressors run at and the density of the air under compression (ever notice that it takes a filled tank hours to cool down, even when filled in a bucket of chilled water at a dive shop?). With that in mind, a good coalescing filter might be better than a cotton filter - but not better than a good desiccant filter.
If you really want to manage the water vapor in the air charge, an appropriately sized desiccant filter is the best way to go for most of us. After all, there really are only two ways to "dry the air" in the pre-charging manner that we use our pumps - actively absorb the water vapor in the air (with desiccants) or chill the charge to the final usage temperature before it gets to the reservoir (with chillers). The problem with chillers is that they increase the amount of air we need to compress before we even get air to the tank . . .
@AlanMcD
I've read a number of articles on the topic and agree with you thoroughly.
However, I never could have explained things so well
Thanks for doing so
Ed
-
So cooling the air just before the tank does not do any good right, The air needs to be cooled before the water seperator (coalescing or dessicant) is this correct? Assuming one might want to intercool the charge.
-
So cooling the air just before the tank does not do any good right, The air needs to be cooled before the water seperator (coalescing or dessicant) is this correct? Assuming one might want to intercool the charge.
Close . . . if you are using an appropriately sized desiccant filter, it does not matter where it is in the system - once the water vapor is removed from the air to a level under roughly 0.1 gram per standard cubic meter, there will never be enough vapor in that air to condense out later when it cools to ambient. That said, there is less vapor to manage in the air if it is cooled down before getting to the desiccant, so an intercooler would be better to place in front of the desiccant than after it, if only for the sake of having to dry out or replace the desiccant medium less often.
When using a coalescing filter, you absolutely want to cool the charge as much as possible before it rather than after it.
-
So cooling the air just before the tank does not do any good right, The air needs to be cooled before the water seperator (coalescing or dessicant) is this correct? Assuming one might want to intercool the charge.
Close . . . if you are using an appropriately sized desiccant filter, it does not matter where it is in the system - once the water vapor is removed from the air to a level under roughly 0.1 gram per standard cubic meter, there will never be enough vapor in that air to condense out later when it cools to ambient. That said, there is less vapor to manage in the air if it is cooled down before getting to the desiccant, so an intercooler would be better to place in front of the desiccant than after it, if only for the sake of having to dry out or replace the desiccant medium less often.
When using a coalescing filter, you absolutely want to cool the charge as much as possible before it rather than after it.
Thanks for the clarification Alan.
-
Take this as a given, as it is true (I can explain more it needed though): the air coming out of the compressor (or out of any post-compression cotton or coalescing filter) will be at an RH (relative humidity) of 100% for that pressure and temperature.
Please do explain more. I'm not doubting, it's just not obvious to me why this would be so.
-
OK - after thinking about how best to explain it, here's the simplest way I can think of:
The key word here is "relative" within "relative humidity", and what it means is that, for the given set of conditions, the humidity is expressed as a percentage of amount of water vapor can be held in the air, from zero percent up to 100%. And of course 100% means the maximum - there is no such thing as 110% or any of that stuff ;). When the air holds the maximum, any more condenses out as liquid water. Pretty straight forward. (Note: technically, there is a state known as "super saturated", and I am discounting that here as we are dealing with air that is flowing through compression into a reservoir - it really does not apply).
Now consider the following key facts about the ability of air to hold water vapor, on a relative basis:
- For a given pressure, as temperature goes up, the air can hold more water vapor
- For a given temperature, as pressure goes up, the air can hold less water vapor
And for our air charge as we compress it:
- The air will start out before compression with far more water vapor that it can hold after compression (as explained in my main post on this)
- Since the air path after the compressor is open to the reservoir, the pressure in the line will basically be constant at any given point in time
- Since the air has just been compressed as it leaves the compressor, it will be heated above ambient (as a direct result of the work of compression)
- The air charge will be the hottest as it leaves the compressor, and will cool down some as it travels to the tank (due to thermodynamics)
With all that, the air has to be in a state where, as it leaves the compressor, it holds the most water vapor that it can hold for that given line pressure, and that as it cools a bit on it's way through any hose or "non-desiccant / chilling" filter to the tank, the temperature can only drop - thus the RH will still be at 100% as it enters the tank. The only way that the RH could be less than 100% would be for either the pressure to drop or the temperature to go up higher than what it was when it exited the compressor unless acted upon with "active drying" either through desiccants or chillers.
Now, while the relative humidity is "stuck" at 100% all the way through this process, that does not mean that the absolute humidity is constant - at a minimum, it will change as the temperature drops after compression, with some of the vapor condensing out, leaving the RH still at 100%. The RH will be at 100% until something happens that makes it lower, which can only be a higher temperature or a lower pressure.
When I refer to the amount of water vapor in the air - for example, 0.1 gram per standard cubic meter - that is a reference in absolute humidity. If we take that compressed air in the tank at that level (0.1 gram/standard cubic meter), and "expand it" slowly into say a plastic trash bag - keeping it separate from the air outside the bag - that air in the bag will still have the same 0.1 gram per cubic meter of water vapor, but (after the temperature equalizes to ambient) the dew point will drop from room temp in the tank to about -50 degrees F at ambient conditions in the bag, and the relative humidity will drop from about 100% in the tank to about 1% at ambient conditions in the bag.
Does that help?
-
Here's what I did:
https://staging5.hardairmagazine.com/reviews/doug-walls-experience-with-a-yong-heng-hpa-compressor/
-
Hello all... what a good thread/conversation!
I have a Yong Heng on order after following these compressors for the last couple of years or so. Everything I've read up on it, for the price, even after adding up some of the essential extras, still seems like one of the better deals available where folks are actually using it to fill decent size tanks.
I also am getting my first 4500psi 9L (DOT) carbon fiber tank (currently have 3 different size 3k psi ones) so with this brand new tank I want to make sure I do it right out of the gate.
Mr. Alan McD, thank you si much for sharing this great information. 🙏
Along with the compressor, I also ordered a quart (to start) of Chemlube 501 compressor synthetic oil as suggested by a few other folks here on GTA, as well as an oil/water separator filter... this one in fact:
30Mpa Oil Water Separator PCP Air Compressor Pump 4500Psi High Pressure Air Filter Diving Separator L300mm OD50mm with 8mm Female and Male Quick Connector (Gold) https://a.co/d/e08tBl0
It's one with an inner filter tube so that the material (which I'll get the molecular sieve for) won't touch the aluminum tube walls. My main concern w/this separator filter is after reading some of the reviews, it seems some people are reporting that the burst disc pops anywhere between 3k-4k psi. But I'll cross that bridge once I come across it.
And, if I understood correctly, as Mr. Alan McD said, it wouldn't hurt to add one of these coalescing filters with a moisture release valve in-line before the molecular sieve filter:
30Mpa High Pressure Air Filter External Water Oil Separator Filtration for Air Compressor Air Pump https://a.co/d/dqBBhjl
However, and again if I understood Mr. Alan McD posts correctly it's best to place the coalescing filters in a bucket of ice water and then onto the molecular sieve filter (which would NOT be placed in ice water) and then to the 9L carbon fiber 4500 psi tank... correct?
Have I understood all of this correctly so far? Please excuse me... apologize for my being slow on this but i have dyslexia so I kind of have to re-read, rinse and repeat until it sticks in my head.
The new 9L Carbon Fiber tank cost a pretty penny, hence why I really want to treat it correctly from the start. I was even thinking to take the new 45k psi to the dive shop to get filled while I learn/test out the compressor on my oldest 3k psi tank first. Does that sound like a decent plan?
Is there anything I'm missing? Thank you again Mr. Alan McD! And you as well, Mr. Doug Wall (awesome review btw) !!
Please let me know, if you have a second. The compressor, tank & other parts are supposed to come in towards the end of next week.
🙏
*** Edited to add: my understanding with these compressors is also not to rush and take the necessary time and breaks when filling a larger size tanks, correct? ****
-
I have the coalescing filters on my Larger Tuxing Compressor, on longer runs say from empty on 90 ci and bigger, I will release moisture about mid way and at the end, I have a JoeB filter as final stage and no moisture makes it to that filter, so you should be good to go, If there is no operating temp gauge on the YH then 15- 20 minute run times with same time cool off is recommended.
-
Thank you Mr. Seller!
I admit, now I'm a bit bummed because this is the very first time I've heard of the Tuxton (TXEDM042).
While looking around I mainly saw the Yong Heng type for roughly around the $200-300 range. Then the car battery powered Nomad oil/water free types (which seemed most folks recommend just filling the rifle with not necessarily a larger tank) and then it shot up to the $1300-$1700 Air Venturi etc.
So thank you! Now I see the TXED042 on Amazon for $559 & it resembles the much more expensive Air Venturi style!
Agh! Frustrating for sure. 😁
Think after the filtration setup & added cost the Yong Heng at the end of the day would be about the same price as the Tuxton TXED042 🥴
That might just about cost me the 15%-20% restocking fee to return the Yong Heng,. Is this the Tuxton you have, Mr. Sellers?
https://www.amazon.com/TUXING-Compressor-Filtration-Water-Oil-Separator/dp/B09GLXP1SY/ref=asc_df_B09GLXP1SY/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=563715124049&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13257893279234718221&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031279&hvtargid=pla-1562991320870&psc=1&th=1
May I please ask how you'd compare the Tuxton to the Yong Heng? The Tuxton in that link seems to come with the AliBaba type couple hundred dollar filtration double setup etc.
I'd ve very interested to hear your thoughts on this and whether in the long run, would be worth it for me to just eat the restocking fee and trade up already?
(I know, kinda crazy how I still haven't even received the Yong Heng I bought and already looking to trade up. And here I thought I was being prudent by watching and waiting to see what's going to be come out beating the Yong Heng for overall prices to value.)
Well, if you happen to have q min or two to let me know, I'd greatly appreciate it! 🙏
***edited for better clarification***
***edited to add::::: :::: ::: :: : physically it resembles x2 Yong Hengs put together aka a 2cyl version of the YH. Is this a fair assesment?***
***edited to add::::: :::: ::: :: :silly question, has anyone ever tried putting two yong hengs together and would it be possible to combine outputs into a single receiving tank? If so, then it would make sense that having two seemingly independent compressors that are running and a benefit, imo, would be run one while the other cools, rinse & repeat for a continuous fill of large to larger tanks. That's when I'd see a little value in maybe having the auto-shutoff feature. I went with the regular guage be of the recommended run/stop, you'te gonna be there watching it with all sorts of other gauges to keep track of... kinda like driving/piloting air through the process of higher and higher pressures. 😂
-
I actually did weight it out my first instinct was to get a YH, as I already have a decent filter from my shoebox setup, but wanted to add a bit extra to that, all said n done I found the Tuxing that is the one you linked very happy with it barely breaks a sweat filling a 90 ci from 1000 to 4500. never took time to time it but matches fill times for volumes they list for it.
Never heard of doubling up a YH , but have heard some use them as a nitrogen gas booster, with the nitrogen tank pressure regulated down to like 125 psi or such, then boost it to 4500 for their guns or portable bottles.
-
I have recently heard of boosters, but still don't fully grasp the concept. Is that what the Tuxin does when it says it has one low pressure cylinder and a high pressure cylinder?
-
I have recently heard of boosters, but still don't fully grasp the concept. Is that what the Tuxin does when it says it has one low pressure cylinder and a high pressure cylinder?
Boosters use compressed air from say a tank, and use some of that to drive a piston to increase the maximum fills at pressures lower than are in the tank . Altros is the only one I am aware of ATM, they can be run off a shop compressor like the old Shoe Box. The shoe box did need a heavy motor, where the booster just has servos, or manualy opperated switches.
-
I feed both of my compressors Nitrogen only, A GX-cs2 and a twin cylinder Tuxing with no bells or whistles . They both have (and so do all others) a single point of input for air I just change the fitting out and input 8-10 psi from one of my regulated nitrogen bottles, I even have a small 20 cu ft n2 bottle that can travel with the gx cs2 and fill many times with that setup. Nitrogen in smaller tanks and around 2200 psi are very cost effective means of getting clean dry "air" (atmospheric air is 78+%N2) NO oxidizers or water ever. If you have a welding supply store near you you should ck it out. BTW 1 cubic foot of nitrogen = 28320 cc. so lots of fills for 20 bucks worth of N2.