GTA
Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 and springers ,rams => Optics, Range estimation & related subjects => Topic started by: superchikn on August 10, 2022, 02:01:53 PM
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Do you use rings which come with the scope, or do you buy aftermarket rings of a better quality?
My most expensive gun is under $600, I have several $100 scopes and only a Leapers that I paid somewhat more than that.
I generally use rings that come with the scope but I also have some UTG rings, a set of BKL and others. Nothing very expensive.
Some of my scopes seem to cant off to the left side a small bit, I have not checked this with a mirror, but I am thinking it is cheaper rings or mounts causing this. If not it may be my installations. I use levels.
So my questions do better quality rings make a big difference? I don't really want to get into paying more for my rings than the scopes they are mounted to.
Scope cant can be a big deal particularly on bullpups with hi mounting heights.
Thanks in advance
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I have used the picatinny mounts that came with a few scopes but I rarely use the dovetail mounts that come packaged with the scope.
My favorite mounts are Sportsmatch. Make sure they have this sticker. Beware of counterfeits. I've heard there are companies playing off the name "Sports Match".
I mainly use the TO4C
2 PIECE MEDIUM DOUBLE SCREW
mounts Check them out.
https://www.sportsmatch-uk.com/air-rifle-rimfire-rifle-1inch-medium-range (https://www.sportsmatch-uk.com/air-rifle-rimfire-rifle-1inch-medium-range)
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Thanks LT.
I have several that look just like those, but they are knockoff I'm sure. I have to look and see if It is only one type that is giving me problems or all the cheapies, or all dovetails or what.
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Do you use rings which come with the scope, or do you buy aftermarket rings of a better quality?
My most expensive gun is under $600, I have several $100 scopes and only a Leapers that I paid somewhat more than that.
I generally use rings that come with the scope but I also have some UTG rings, a set of BKL and others. Nothing very expensive.
Some of my scopes seem to cant off to the left side a small bit, I have not checked this with a mirror, but I am thinking it is cheaper rings or mounts causing this. If not it may be my installations. I use levels.
So my questions do better quality rings make a big difference? I don't really want to get into paying more for my rings than the scopes they are mounted to.
Scope cant can be a big deal particularly on bullpups with hi mounting heights.
Thanks in advance
I don't shoot springers, so I am not concerned with large recoil forces, and use whatever comes with the scope. If none, I find that the cheapies, with 4 clamping screws on each ring are just fine. I think the last ones I got were "Sniper" branded.
Your "cant" problem needs more description. The scopes always point to the left of POI/barrel bore? On same gun or different guns? Have you stuck a straight edge on the rail to try to eyeball if the rail is the issue? Have you tried reversing the rings so the front is in the back and vice-versa? Are the rings installed such that all the rail clamp screws are all on the right side or all on the left side, and not one one way and the other the other?
Sorry if this is insultingly basic, gotta start somewhere...
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Plus 1 on the Sportsmatch rings. They're made in the UK. The machining, materials and hardware are light years better than the cheap Chinese rings.
I use the dual bolt clamp T04C on any springer over 12 fpe. Otherwise I use the T02C single bolt model.
Weihrauch actually includes the T02C single bolt model on their Hw80 hunter package guns. That says a lot if they hold on to that gun. Do yourself a favor invest in a fat wrench and properly torque your rings. Most scopes don't need more than 16 in lbs on the caps to stay put when using properly made rings. Which btw shouldn't ever need friction tape. That's a band-aid for poor machining.
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Do you use rings which come with the scope, or do you buy aftermarket rings of a better quality?
My most expensive gun is under $600, I have several $100 scopes and only a Leapers that I paid somewhat more than that.
I generally use rings that come with the scope but I also have some UTG rings, a set of BKL and others. Nothing very expensive.
Some of my scopes seem to cant off to the left side a small bit, I have not checked this with a mirror, but I am thinking it is cheaper rings or mounts causing this. If not it may be my installations. I use levels.
So my questions do better quality rings make a big difference? I don't really want to get into paying more for my rings than the scopes they are mounted to.
Scope cant can be a big deal particularly on bullpups with hi mounting heights.
Thanks in advance
I don't shoot springers, so I am not concerned with large recoil forces, and use whatever comes with the scope. If none, I find that the cheapies, with 4 clamping screws on each ring are just fine. I think the last ones I got were "Sniper" branded.
Your "cant" problem needs more description. The scopes always point to the left of POI/barrel bore? On same gun or different guns? Have you stuck a straight edge on the rail to try to eyeball if the rail is the issue? Have you tried reversing the rings so the front is in the back and vice-versa? Are the rings installed such that all the rail clamp screws are all on the right side or all on the left side, and not one one way and the other the other?
Sorry if this is insultingly basic, gotta start somewhere...
Nothing taken as an insult.
I am referring to PCPs, CO2 and some pumpers.
a few different guns.
I mount all of my rings with the bolt(s)/lever on the same side.
When I say the scope is canted I mean that it appears to be leaning to the left of center front and pack. It is parallel with the barrel and receiver.
The leaning to the left is only barely noticeable if you are looking for it.
When I mount the scope level with the breach, and I look through the scope my vertical crosshair is to the left of the centerline of breach/barrel and needs to be rotated counterclockwise looking from the rear to align them closely, and it is now out of level a bit.
Now that I think about this may be my eyes playing tricks on me. Tonight I will look with my left eye and see what I get.
I zero most of my guns at 30 yds and two at 50.
I have noticed that when I shoot closer than zero POI is to the left of POA and when I shoot longer it tends to go to the right.
Not all of my guns do this but a few do. Guess I better make of record of which guns do what or I'm just p$%&ing up a rope.
I do have wheeler Fatwrench.
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Nothing taken as an insult.
I am referring to PCPs, CO2 and some pumpers.
a few different guns.
I mount all of my rings with the bolt(s)/lever on the same side.
When I say the scope is canted I mean that it appears to be leaning to the left of center front and pack. It is parallel with the barrel and receiver.
The leaning to the left is only barely noticeable if you are looking for it.
When I mount the scope level with the breach, and I look through the scope my vertical crosshair is to the left of the centerline of breach/barrel and needs to be rotated counterclockwise looking from the rear to align them closely, and it is now out of level a bit.
Now that I think about this may be my eyes playing tricks on me. Tonight I will look with my left eye and see what I get.
I zero most of my guns at 30 yds and two at 50.
I have noticed that when I shoot closer than zero POI is to the left of POA and when I shoot longer it tends to go to the right.
Not all of my guns do this but a few do. Guess I better make of record of which guns do what or I'm just p$%&ing up a rope.
I do have wheeler Fatwrench.
So it's the rings (or mount) aren't quite on centerline. Not optimal but can be overcome.
I can't find the exact thread at the moment, but that cant you describe is close to where you want to be for the slightly left scope.
For optimal results, the vertical reticle line should intersect the center of the barrel. Using a mirror at 20 or so feet away, you cant the scope slightly -- counterclockwise in your case -- until it bisects the muzzle. When you shoot, cant the GUN slightly clockwise, so the vertical scope reticle is plumb with the world (and still lined up with the barrel.) Set any scope levels level at that angle as well. This setup minimizes POI shifts at different ranges.
If you are shooting at just one distance, I'm pretty sure none of that matters, and you could even put it on looking like an "X" if you wanted to.
Lots of good info in the stickies in this Optics section, but a quick read through I didn't see the discussion I remember about this reticle-pass-through-the barrel-centerline discussion.
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Do you use rings which come with the scope, or do you buy aftermarket rings of a better quality?
My most expensive gun is under $600, I have several $100 scopes and only a Leapers that I paid somewhat more than that.
I generally use rings that come with the scope but I also have some UTG rings, a set of BKL and others. Nothing very expensive.
Some of my scopes seem to cant off to the left side a small bit, I have not checked this with a mirror, but I am thinking it is cheaper rings or mounts causing this. If not it may be my installations. I use levels.
So my questions do better quality rings make a big difference? I don't really want to get into paying more for my rings than the scopes they are mounted to.
Scope cant can be a big deal particularly on bullpups with hi mounting heights.
Thanks in advance
I've used a lot of different low price scope rings with separate clamp plates and found that they allowed "recoil damage" to my R9 & HW95 stop pin holes even though the base screws were torqued in excess of the max recommended torque..........
(https://i.imgur.com/O0doLhC.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/YGxzn9v.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/e85ASii.jpg)
My "solution" was to buy a considerably more expensive BKL 2 piece mount that had milled dovetail grooves instead of a separate clamp plate. Well, again even though the base screws were torqued in excess of the recommended 35 in/lbs of torque the mounts slipped on the scope mounting receiver dovetails. Another issue with the 2 piece BKL mount is that the narrow top straps damaged my scope tubes using my normal 15 in/lbs of torque but the scope slipped in the rings using 10 in/lbs of torque........
(https://i.imgur.com/hOb80aL.png) (https://i.imgur.com/vk6Vlyx.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/8u7bshQ.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/LamRSe1.jpg)
My next "solution" was to buy the $60ish one piece BKL mount. Even though the top strap screws were torqued to 15 in/lbs the scope slipped in the rings on the R9. I solved this issue by applying electrical cloth friction tape inside the rings. This solved the "scope sliding in the rings" however the mount still slid on the R9 dovetails even though the 6 base screws were torqued in excess of BKL max.........
(https://i.imgur.com/k6N36xQ.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/eQu97U8.jpg)
"Stop pinless" BKL mounts with deformed screw bases from excessive torque trying to keep them in place.........
(https://i.imgur.com/gUh6khC.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/O3URm2L.jpg)
Out of frustration I "retired" the relatively expensive "stop pinless" BKL mounts and machined some steel sacrificial inserts for my HW springer stop pin holes like this and reverted back to mounts with stop pins which has worked well...........
(https://i.imgur.com/NqHbgmH.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/cf84y3X.jpg)
My final solution was finding this one piece UTG dovetail to Picatinny adapter with stop pins on the web and ordered one (about $18)............
(https://i.imgur.com/rnMkLLX.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/d1qT29A.png) (https://i.imgur.com/Kzc3el7.png) (https://i.imgur.com/JYKOfNy.jpg)
I initially used the adapter with my 1" tube Hawke scope with a set of 1" Weaver Quad Lock rings from "WallyMart". The adapter cost $18ish and the Weaver rings cost about $9 so I had a pretty good mount for under $30...........
(https://i.imgur.com/Ito5HrN.jpg)
I liked the UTG adapter so much that I ordered another for my other HW break barrel and mounted a 30mm tube scope in the adapter. For the 30mm tube scope bought a set of 30mm Vector Optics Tactical 30mm Medium Weaver Mount Rings like this. The issue I had with my 30mm tube Hawke AirMax compact was it's rather short tube that needed a "narrowish" ring and this set of rings worked perfectly and they only cost about $13..........
(https://i.imgur.com/X8tpcqO.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/hDZWgq8.jpg)
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Do you use rings which come with the scope, or do you buy aftermarket rings of a better quality?
My most expensive gun is under $600, I have several $100 scopes and only a Leapers that I paid somewhat more than that.
I generally use rings that come with the scope but I also have some UTG rings, a set of BKL and others. Nothing very expensive.
Some of my scopes seem to cant off to the left side a small bit, I have not checked this with a mirror, but I am thinking it is cheaper rings or mounts causing this. If not it may be my installations. I use levels.
So my questions do better quality rings make a big difference? I don't really want to get into paying more for my rings than the scopes they are mounted to.
Scope cant can be a big deal particularly on bullpups with hi mounting heights.
Thanks in advance
I don't shoot springers, so I am not concerned with large recoil forces, and use whatever comes with the scope. If none, I find that the cheapies, with 4 clamping screws on each ring are just fine. I think the last ones I got were "Sniper" branded.
Your "cant" problem needs more description. The scopes always point to the left of POI/barrel bore? On same gun or different guns? Have you stuck a straight edge on the rail to try to eyeball if the rail is the issue? Have you tried reversing the rings so the front is in the back and vice-versa? Are the rings installed such that all the rail clamp screws are all on the right side or all on the left side, and not one one way and the other the other?
Sorry if this is insultingly basic, gotta start somewhere...
Nothing taken as an insult.
I am referring to PCPs, CO2 and some pumpers.
a few different guns.
I mount all of my rings with the bolt(s)/lever on the same side.
When I say the scope is canted I mean that it appears to be leaning to the left of center front and pack. It is parallel with the barrel and receiver.
The leaning to the left is only barely noticeable if you are looking for it.
When I mount the scope level with the breach, and I look through the scope my vertical crosshair is to the left of the centerline of breach/barrel and needs to be rotated counterclockwise looking from the rear to align them closely, and it is now out of level a bit.
Now that I think about this may be my eyes playing tricks on me. Tonight I will look with my left eye and see what I get.
I zero most of my guns at 30 yds and two at 50.
I have noticed that when I shoot closer than zero POI is to the left of POA and when I shoot longer it tends to go to the right.
Not all of my guns do this but a few do. Guess I better make of record of which guns do what or I'm just p$%&ing up a rope.
I do have wheeler Fatwrench.
You'll find that the guns that lean (group) left inside of their zero and right past their zero have barrels that are bent or misaligned to the right . I've aligned many bent barrels.
Vertically bent barrels can easily be compensated. You can have up to two zero distances vertically because gravity always works in a vertical plane.
With a horizontally bent or misaligned barrels you only have one zero distance. When theoretically the horizontal zero should never change and only change with wind or projectile.
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Buy the cheapest rings you can find and then lap your rings. Otherwise buy a quality set where you believe that they are round and truly centered.
-Y
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Buy the cheapest rings you can find and then lap your rings. Otherwise buy a quality set where you believe that they are round and truly centered.
-Y
Problem is that with the HW break barrels I've owned "truly centered" on the receiver isn't necessarily "truly centered" on the barrel. Also, I found that "cheap" mounts with the separate clamp plate tend to "cock" the scope to one side like this, especially those that can be reversed to fit different width receiver dovetails. This "feature" is the main reason I nixed the "clamp plate versions" and started using the scope base/mount that clamped the dovetail grooves without a separate plate........
(https://i.imgur.com/03OUPaB.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/03OUPaB.jpg)
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"guns that lean (group) left inside of their zero and right past their zero have barrels that are bent "
Or perhaps it's simply a matter of mounting and using a scope that isn't optically centered which is VERY COMMON when the s cope zero is done with a misaligned barrel.
Decades ago I had the "poi left at closer distances" and "poi right at further distances" than my 30 yard zero. I initially "solved" this issue with an adjustable mount but found that the setup was very tedious (mounting, shooting, & unmounting scope, adjusting the finniky adjustable mount screws, finally getting near and far poi laterally aligned, but then after a few thousand shots having to do this all over again. Then my brother had a mishap squirrel hunting with his R9 when he slipped on a wey mossy rock. He lost balance and tossed the R9 muzzle first on a rock which caused his elevation and windage to shift 3" at 30 yards. His fix was to simply bend the barrel using a forked tree trunk till the poi was close to the point of aim at 30 yards and did the "fine adjusting" with a couple clicks of the turrets.
That gave me an idea! I removed the adjustable mount replacing it with the origional Beeman two piece mount (actually a rebadged SportsMatch back then), then optically centered the scope and bent the barrel so the poi was within about 1" from the point of aim at 30 yards, then did the "fine adjustments" via the turrets. That solved my "left to right crossover" issues and I've been bending my barrels ever since.
Here is an example of my .177 R9 windage alignment with "windage adjustment via bent barrel" when checking the trajectory of a certain tune. I shot 35 five shot groups (175 consecutive shots) sitting on a bucket resting the gun on cross sticks. The windage is nicely aligned from 10 yards to 50 yards using a 30 yard zero using an optically centered scope and deliberately bent barrel..........
(https://i.imgur.com/a7azSng.jpg)
Anywhoo, with a break barrel springer even barrel pivot bolt tension will affect the lateral flight of the pellet (as the 45 yard groups show) much less perfect/imperfect milling of dovetail grooves and barrel pivot block to receiver fork alignments so a straight barrel is a moot point. Only the pellet exiting the crown matters as this pistol demonstrated.......
(https://i.imgur.com/dr0JUtE.png)
LOL........barrel straightening by viewing the bore when bending has been done "forever" but my experience is that it doesn't have much to do break barrel springer barrel and receiver mounting geometry........
(https://i.imgur.com/0mgPBHB.jpg)