GTA
Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 and springers ,rams => Optics, Range estimation & related subjects => Topic started by: PGunner on May 30, 2022, 10:29:34 AM
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I put a new barrel on my R9. put my scope on it it was hitting about 3" low at 9yds shimmed the rear scope mount and got it just about and pellets went to about a 3" scatter another dead scope. That gun has killed every scope I put on it.
I'm wondering if an ajustable mount but would I be back to killing another scope?
maybe a Sportsmatch Dampa Mount DM60 1-Pc can I shim it enough to compensate for droop barrel and not kill the scope?
With droop barrel if I sight it in at 20 yds and move back to 40 would it be off the bull eye?
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As you've learned ahimming a scope can put undue stress on it. The first step should be to determine why your barrel is droopy. Is it bent slightly? Does it not close completely, etc. Fix the problem before chasing the symptoms if possible. Make sure your scope was mounted correctly. Before tightening the mounts it should be able to slide back and forth in the dovetail without falling off the gun. If it's still shooting low you may wish to try a droop compensating mount. There are a few to choose from.
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For me, first thing is to know how a scope works.
https://life.hawkeoptics.com/riflescope-alignment/
For a springer, I would only go with an airgun rated scope and with a friendly warranty to your location (freight costs, etc.).
Start with your scope 'optically centred'; my suggestion is to use the mirror method.
When zeroing, to keep its resistance to recoils, etc., the scope HAS to remain within its comfort zone; rule of thumb = maximum adjustments of 1 turn (usually 60 clicks) from the 'optical center' for each tower.
If you are needing much more clicks for zeroing (usually vertical), you may just bend the barrel; much more usual and less terrible than I thought at first..
After that, it is a very good idea to have additional help from a dampening mount.
Any doubts we are here to help.
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mpbby
That's interesting about bending the barrel.
Would that stay on 0 at 20 yrds and then 40 yards?
I have herd of straightening a bent barrel but not bending it on purpose.
I zeroed my scope and going to check out a few other things with the barrel adn make sure as much as i can that everything is the way it should be.
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Read through my post on this thread. Pm me for my phone number if you don't understand. https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=189245.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=189245.0)
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I put a new barrel on my R9. put my scope on it it was hitting about 3" low at 9yds shimmed the rear scope mount and got it just about and pellets went to about a 3" scatter another dead scope. That gun has killed every scope I put on it.
I'm wondering if an ajustable mount but would I be back to killing another scope?
maybe a Sportsmatch Dampa Mount DM60 1-Pc can I shim it enough to compensate for droop barrel and not kill the scope?
With droop barrel if I sight it in at 20 yds and move back to 40 would it be off the bull eye?
Shimming the scope should be a last resort!
Adjustable mounts will not hold a springer. Get a Diana Zr-1 or a Dampa mount. Or check out how Nced does it. Do a search here on GTA.
Get a scope that is springer rated and has a great guarantee.
-Y
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I put a new barrel on my R9. put my scope on it it was hitting about 3" low at 9yds shimmed the rear scope mount and got it just about and pellets went to about a 3" scatter another dead scope. That gun has killed every scope I put on it.
I'm wondering if an ajustable mount but would I be back to killing another scope?
maybe a Sportsmatch Dampa Mount DM60 1-Pc can I shim it enough to compensate for droop barrel and not kill the scope?
With droop barrel if I sight it in at 20 yds and move back to 40 would it be off the bull eye?
I've been bending my R9 and the HW95 barrels for years after having less than satisfactory results with a couple brands of adjustable mounts.
My main issues with the adjustable mounts I used were both the hassle of setting up the scope and then having the adjustments shift after using them for a while. One of the two I tried was the BSquare like this which had a bunch of tiny set screws to lock the settings BSquare.........
(https://i.imgur.com/QfSVN9O.png) (https://i.imgur.com/Q2WfBEa.png)
I gave up on the "adjustable mounts" after my brother slipped on a wet mossy rock while squirrel hunting in West Virginia and tossed his R9 muzzle first into another rock which messed up the muzzle shifting his poi 3" at only 30 yards. He simply readjusted his scope (a 4-16x40 Bushnell Elite 4200 AO) and the gun performed well after that. Hummm, so the bent barrel only affected the poi which gave me the idea that I only needed to do a "permanent one adjustment" to get the poi of an optically centered scope zero within "shaking hands" of the poa, then the fine adjustment can be done with the scope turrets.
Before bending my barrels I first verified that the scope was optically centered and then used a home made "barrel tweaker" to do the bending. As a side note, a bend in my .177 R9 barrel sufficient to move the poi a couple inches at 18 yards can't even be seem with the naked eye. The reason I know this is that a few years ago I bought one of those RWS drooper mounts with built in ".025" of droop compensation". The issue was that my R9 barrel didn't have any droop so the barrel needed to be bent to move the poi a couple inches at 18 yards to test the RWS mount mounted in the proper orientation (arrow toward the muzzle)............
(https://i.imgur.com/A6CTDUG.png)
After the test I simply junked the "drooper mount" and rebent the barrel "to normal" using my construction material "barrel tweaker"..........
(https://i.imgur.com/rsK0loX.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/nppgPMC.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/9M6gXwN.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/hCUutJR.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/mfVQ9Q4.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/a3A9W5a.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/yXJd6eC.jpg)
There is a "reason to my madness" concerning the preference for optically centering my scopes used on my recoiling HW springers (bouncers). The idea is to maintain erector spring tension through the entire range of turret adjustments. If the turrets are adjusted toward the "max limits" the erector spring can have unequal tension which allows the erector assembly to "thrash around" with the "springer recoil" causing poi shifting or perhaps even scope damage........
(https://i.imgur.com/HkhNfH7.png) (https://i.imgur.com/u95ysdw.jpg)
Anywhoo.......I do believe that an adjustable mount can be useful if it stays put after setting up, however the process of mounting the scope, checking the poi, unmounting and remounting the scope for readjusting, again checking the poi, yada yada yada for a couple hours, then having to do it all over again when it "shook loose" was/is more of a hassle than I'm willing to endure when bending the barrel is permanent and the scope doesn't need to be unmounted/re-mounted to do the adjustments.
As a side note, after the "barrel tweaks" so the poi is within 1" or less of the poa it takes less than 1/4 rotation of the scope turrets (often less than 6 clicks) to zero the poi at 30 yards.
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PGunner
You usually have a certain distance to zero the scope. So, when bending (trial and error) you are trying to minimise the scope adjustments for - that distance. For different distances, I don't use anymore clicking, but holdover (or under) when necessary.
I did a hole in the base of my homemade spring compressor; it works exactly as the Nced's device does.
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PGunner
You usually have a certain distance to zero the scope. So, when bending (trial and error) you are trying to minimise the scope adjustments for - that distance. For different distances, I don't use anymore clicking, but holdover (or under) when necessary.
I did a hole in the base of my homemade spring compressor; it works exactly as the Nced's device does.
Personally I bend my barrel so the poi is within 1" or less at my 30 yard zero distance. then "fine tuning" the zero at 30 yards using the turrets. Actually, with my HW95/R9 setup I can "bend to 1/4" low at 18 yards" and be pretty close enough to a 30 yard zero to use the turrets at 30 yards.
Since I'm zeroing very close to the apex of the pellet flight all my aiming is using "hold over" so I don't have to also deal with "hold under". If the target is at 10 yards or 55 yards all holds are high. To determine the ACTUAL drop of my pellet with a new (or different) tune I first shoot a home printed "trajectory chart" like this............
(https://i.imgur.com/a7azSng.jpg)
The above target shows that my poi at 10 yards using a 30 yard zero was about 1/2" low, the "near zero" was at 17 yards and the far zero at 30ish yards, at 50 yards the pellet dropped about 1 1/2".
I also don't "click on" but use "holdover aiming" with the help of the scope reticle. For my setup a 30 yard zero is pretty close to the apex of the pellet flight at 25 yards (poi is about 1/4" high) so this setup was workable for using holdover the reference points for this reticle. I don't like being forced to refer to a "dope sheet" to know the holdover at different distances so I mark my side wheel or AO with symbols relating to the sharp focus at different distances like this.......
(https://i.imgur.com/7x895QB.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/urnuA18.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/5zSwz55.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/uQzETbd.jpg)
Anywhoo.....with the demise of my favorite die lot marked and dated boxed Crosman Premier pellet I've tentatively switched to 4.52mm H&N FTT pellets. Using a bit stiffer tune with the heavier FTT the pellet trajectory has changed so Ill need to shoot a couple more "trajectory targets" to determine the best zero distance or even if the FTT is suitable.
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Some interesting things to think about.
I haven't to see if the barrel is bent yet but what I did was put the scope back to new spects ordered a barrel laser put a couple shims in the back mount so that was close to on the bull and about 5 shots later and mover from 8 yards to 25 and it was hitting real close. Now to start testing pellets and see if it likes one of them.
Thanks for all the reply info
Lee
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If a gun has droop barrel and I sight it in at 35yrds and shoot it at 50yrds or 20 will it hit the target in the same spot or have to be sighted in each distance? Other than normal distance trajectory adjustments.
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If a gun has droop barrel and I sight it in at 35yrds and shoot it at 50yrds or 20 will it hit the target in the same spot or have to be sighted in each distance? Other than normal distance trajectory adjustments.
Maybe if it was 4000 fps 22-250. Airguns will always have appreciable drop at those ranges.
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I already told you what's going on. The droop isn't the barrel. It's the cocking arm.
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I put a new barrel on my R9. put my scope on it it was hitting about 3" low at 9yds shimmed the rear scope mount and got it just about and pellets went to about a 3" scatter another dead scope. That gun has killed every scope I put on it.
I'm wondering if an ajustable mount but would I be back to killing another scope?
maybe a Sportsmatch Dampa Mount DM60 1-Pc can I shim it enough to compensate for droop barrel and not kill the scope?
With droop barrel if I sight it in at 20 yds and move back to 40 would it be off the bull eye?
Late response, sorry.
It's worth understanding what has broken on the scope. The reticle/crosshairs or the internal optics can loosen up and go screwy. That's a proper broken scope.
Then there's losing zero, where the adjustments go bad, but the image still looks fine. It's worth checking to see if the scope works, again, if you return it to a neutral zero (try it on another rifle). This problem is more likely to occur when the scope has to be adjusted to the extreme to get on target. If this is the case, you might get a scope to work if you shim it so it's aligned better on the rifle.
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Shimming a scope is a butcher repair. It turns the rings into a staircase. It stresses the scope tube. If it's a 39 dollar Amazon scope, go ahead. There's adjustable rings for guns that absolutely require it.
The OPs gun likely incurs droop from cocking arm interference that I already suggested twice. Honestly, sometimes I wonder why I bother to share information if people won't utilize it.
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Lots of people shim scopes. If you shoot springers, god knows where the pellet goes. And that's when the barrels and rails are actually put on straight to begin with. For horizontal adjustment, I put the shims between the ring(s) and the rail. If you're worried about your scope tube, you can lap them, once you get it close, before you put full torque on the ring screws.
Yeah, lots of people won't follow your advice about bending a cocking arm, Bayman. People are 100% certain that anything they could do with a vice or hammer is a downgrade compared to what came from a factory out of a new cardboard box. Especially when it's a high price German rifle.
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The OPs gun likely incurs droop from cocking arm interference
There is a possibility of cocking arm interference - I do not think I would say LIKELY without further knowledge of what was replaced on the barrel exchange.
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Regardless of how likely it is, it takes 10 seconds to check. It's almost like people simply can't believe HW can make a mistake like this to begin with. Let alone the reality that the fix involves a sledge hammer to create play where there wasn't any!
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Regardless of how likely it is, it takes 10 seconds to check. It's almost like people simply can't believe HW can make a mistake like this to begin with. Let alone the reality that the fix involves a sledge hammer to create play where there wasn't any!
It's not fixed with a sledge hammer.
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The OPs gun likely incurs droop from cocking arm interference
There is a possibility of cocking arm interference - I do not think I would say LIKELY without further knowledge of what was replaced on the barrel exchange.
I've been down this road several times. I know what I'm talking about. I try to document every part of my experience for the benefit of the GTA community. Yet people look for every other possibility before checking something that takes two seconds to check.
I'm out. Figure it out for yourselves.
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It's not fixed with a sledge hammer.
Lots of ways to bend a bar of steel. Sledgehammer is perfectly capable of that. Better to take the gun apart, first, though. If you need someone to tell you that, you're not going to fix anything except with your credit card.
I unbent a springer barrel with a sledgehammer after accidentally firing it with the barrel open. Breech block in a vice, hammer to the barrel. I just put a piece of pipe over it to soften the blows.
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It's not fixed with a sledge hammer.
Lots of ways to bend a bar of steel. Sledgehammer is perfectly capable of that. Better to take the gun apart, first, though. If you need someone to tell you that, you're not going to fix anything except with your credit card.
I unbent a springer barrel with a sledgehammer after accidentally firing it with the barrel open. Breech block in a vice, hammer to the barrel. I just put a piece of pipe over it to soften the blows.
A sledge hammer is a crude method of airgun repair. So Correction- It's not best fixed with a sledge hammer. There's much much better ways to fix it. You could drill teeth with a Black and Decker too but it's ill advised. You do whatever works best for you.
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Regardless of how likely it is, it takes 10 seconds to check. It's almost like people simply can't believe HW can make a mistake like this to begin with. Let alone the reality that the fix involves a sledge hammer to create play where there wasn't any!
Hummm.....it's interesting that over a few decades I've bought, tuned, sold a dozen HW break barrels (HW50, HW35, Beeman R10, several Beeman R9s and a HW95). I also bought a used .177 R1 barrel to replace the .20 barrel of an R9 that I didn't like (had the barrel pro chopped and choked), bought a new .177 HW95 barrel on sale when a Canadian retailer stopped selling HW parts. It's obvious that some have had "cocking arm interference" but never had such an issue with any HW springer I've owned or worked on over the years. The closest I had with a cocking lever was with my fixed barrel HW77k where compression of the breech seal over time gave a "vess than positive lockup" to the sliding compression tube so a added a bit of "extra bend" to the cocking lever using a sturdy vise and piece of pipe which permanently solved the "slightly loose lock-up".
I stopped working on springers for other folks several years ago and here is a pic of a few left over "old design" receivers , a couple barrels and a cocking lever in py "old parts bin".............
(https://i.imgur.com/0OEObJ7.jpg)
Old HW design welded stock mounting tab & fixed barrel latching lug vs a newer design HW95 style bolt on combination stock mounting/barrel latching bracket..........
(https://i.imgur.com/XXQIrq1.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/qAbAlCf.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/seYutY8.jpg)
Anywhoo....as mentioned I've never encountered "cocking lever interference" that affected barrel latching but it does seem it occasionally happens. IMHO, as long as the breech is sealing and functioning well the best solution is simply to bend the barrel a tad. A few years ago I bought one of those RWS mounts with the "duilt in droop compensation" for my .177 R9 just for grinns and mounted it with the "arrow" pointed toward the muzzle.........
(https://i.imgur.com/A6CTDUG.png)
Well, the result with my "droopless R9 barrel" was that the poi was 3" low at only 18 yards. I then bent my barrel so the poi was2 3/4" higher at 18 yards and the bend couldn't even be seen.
I ended up removing that scope mount, re-bent the barrel to "normal" never to look back. I have a suspicion that some droop is deliberately "designed in" with German springers to accommodate iron sights with tall front sights with inserts. Notice that this pic of a HW80k shows visible "barrel droop", however it's also notable that while the barrel isn't perfectly lines up with the receiver tube, the line between the front and rear iron sights are indeed aligned with the receiver tube. This isn't much of an issue with sights mounted directly on the barrel however the "apparent droop" does have bearing on receiver mounted rear sights and scopes........
(https://i.imgur.com/bm0XDpv.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/BjIqB8r.png) (https://i.imgur.com/Ttwk1AA.png)
Evidently there have always been differences in HW break barrel "barrel droop" because I used to buy my springers directly from Beeman in California and would pay a $1 premium for the "scope barrel angle option" option plus a $1 premium for the "select group option" over the price of the gun.
LOL.....concerning barrel bending, I've never needed to do this much bending...........
(https://i.imgur.com/dr0JUtE.png)
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That picture of the twisted barrel pistol is what I thought of when unbending my Airem 2.
After spending 20 minutes mounting a new scope, I went to take my first shot. Then I decided the target had too many holes, already, after I had already started to pull the trigger. So I cocked the gun to reset the sear and put up a new target with my left hand, never setting down the rifle. Took aim, and fired.
That was the smoothest recoil this rifle ever made. And the barrel was bent up about 15-20 degrees, no joke.
Bending a rifle barrel UP is easy as pie, because the barrel block positively stops in that direction. Bending it side to side is a bit more difficult, because you can potentially loosen your lockup. Bending it back down, now that's hard to do without the proper tools. There's no leverage in that direction. I wonder if that's why many break barrels err on the side of being a bit droopy, rather than the other way around. Droop is easy to fix!
I ended up putting the breech in a vice, but then I would stand on the top of the rifle with all my weight on one foot right over near the breech face just as I smacked the barrel with a sledgehammer, piece of pipe over the barrel to take the dents.
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That picture of the twisted barrel pistol is what I thought of when unbending my Airem 2.
After spending 20 minutes mounting a new scope, I went to take my first shot. Then I decided the target had too many holes, already, after I had already started to pull the trigger. So I cocked the gun to reset the sear and put up a new target with my left hand, never setting down the rifle. Took aim, and fired.
That was the smoothest recoil this rifle ever made. And the barrel was bent up about 15-20 degrees, no joke.
Bending a rifle barrel UP is easy as pie, because the barrel block positively stops in that direction. Bending it side to side is a bit more difficult, because you can potentially loosen your lockup. Bending it back down, now that's hard to do without the proper tools. There's no leverage in that direction, at all. I'm curious the proper way to unbend a barrel.
I ended up putting the breech in a vice, but then I would stand on the top of the rifle with all my weight on one foot right over near the breech face just as I smacked the barrel with a sledgehammer, piece of pipe over the barrel to take the dents.
Barrel bent UP (snoop) like this?
(https://i.imgur.com/CeRHb7I.png)
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Yeah, like that.
I got it unbent with the hammer. But the barrel developed a wee bit of play in the breech block. As long as I slam the barrel back home, it shoots as good as ever. But if I don't slam the barrel, it doesn't necessarily end up in a consistent spot.
I think I'm going to weld the barrel to the breech block, but I don't know how to remove a breech seal without destroying it.
After this experience, I believe break barrels tend towards droop on purpose. Droop is way easy to fix, compared to the reverse direction.
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Yeah, like that.
I got it unbent with the hammer. But the barrel developed a wee bit of play in the breech block. As long as I slam the barrel back home, it shoots as good as ever. But if I don't slam the barrel, it doesn't necessarily end up in a consistent spot.
I think I'm going to weld the barrel to the breech block, but I don't know how to remove a breech seal without destroying it.
After this experience, I believe break barrels tend towards droop on purpose. Droop is way easy to fix, compared to the reverse direction.
I bend my HW barrels so the poi is within 1" (or closer) to th epoint of aim at my 30 yard zero distance so I might need to add windage, droop, or snoop when bending the barrel. As you've mentioned, reversing droop and changing windage is easy (I've even used a forked tree to do these adjustments) but adding droop to a break barrel is problematic. To do this I made up a "barrel tweaker" like this from a couple pieces of 2x4 construction lumber, a large eye bolt, a 5/8"-11 nut, a 5/8" flat washer and a machined Delrin "saddle" to spread the bending over a wider area and protect the barrel finish.........
(https://i.imgur.com/a3A9W5a.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/kP9eWig.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/hCUutJR.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/rsK0loX.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/nppgPMC.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/mfVQ9Q4.jpg)
Bending the barrel so the poi is close to the point of aim is a multi-bending process with the "barrel tweaker" whereas the barrel is bent and opposite the direction of the point of impact at the target, then another shot is taken after the "tweak" to check the poi, so on and so forth. Anywhoo, here is the target showing the "barrel tweaking sequence". LOL, it does normally take more than "3 tweaks" to get the poi correct but I was fortunate for this session......
(https://i.imgur.com/yXJd6eC.jpg)
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Thanks Ed.
I have a little bit of bend in the middle, still. This jig should handle that, perfectly. Looks about as efficient as possible.
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Thanks Ed.
I have a little bit of bend in the middle, still. This jig should handle that, perfectly. Looks about as efficient as possible.
The "tweaker" is placed so all bending is done on the barrel and not at the junction where the barrel is pressed or screwed (old HW break barrels were "pressed and pinned, newer ones are screwed) in the barrel pivot block. This also makes it possible to repeat positioning of the "tweaker" at the same location if some bending needs to be reversed..........
(https://i.imgur.com/M9YMCt1.jpg)
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Thanks Ed.
I have a little bit of bend in the middle, still. This jig should handle that, perfectly. Looks about as efficient as possible.
The "tweaker" is placed so all bending is done on the barrel and not at the junction where the barrel is pressed or screwed (old HW break barrels were "pressed and pinned, newer ones are screwed) in the barrel pivot block. This also makes it possible to repeat positioning of the "tweaker" at the same location if some bending needs to be reversed..........
(https://i.imgur.com/M9YMCt1.jpg)
Also, adjust in SMALL adjustments because a barrel bend that moves the poi of a .177 pellet 3 inches at only 18 yards can't be seen with the naked eye, only shooting a pellet will show the effect of the bend.