GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Hunting Gate => Topic started by: HOSPassassin on May 11, 2022, 11:02:47 PM
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Squirrels are my primary game. I have harvested a couple of hundred over the last few years.
I hear and read stories everywhere about how tough squirrels are, and I know very well how thick their hide is (especially for foxes!)
and how hard it is to pull it off. I have heard of them absorbing several projectiles before they disappear into a hole. Some of them
seem able to take an incredible amount of damage and keep going.
However, this is not my experience. Yes, I have had some take a hit and run off, but it has always, except once, been from a shotgun.
I have never failed to recover one that I hit with a pellet. If I hit them at all (and I certainly don't always), they're DRT. I take both
brain and vitals shots. The results are the same. The only one that has gotten away so far took a badly placed pellet to the abdomen.
I have always used .177 caliber at less than 10 foot-pounds. My maximum range is always 20 yards, or 25 at the very most.
Have I just been extraordinarily fortunate up until now? Will the law of averages kick in and result in a bunch of lost animals this fall?
Do I really stink with a shotgun? :-)
What has been your experience?
HA
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It might be the closer range you are shooting, my range out in the wild is usually 35-45 yards. In my back yard at <25 yards they never seem to run away after a hit but out in the wild, I've lost a few that scramble under logs where I haven't been able to find them. I've found the squirrels around here in the Sierra Nevada mountains near Lake Tahoe are incredibly tough and are almost like cockroaches to kill.
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I take my daisy 880 loaded with wadcutters to the woods for squirrels each year... especially the early season when the leaves are still on the trees and shots are pretty close... 25 to 30 yds. being a “ long shot” that time of year.
As you said I use both head and body shots out to about 30 yds. and drt is the norm.
However, one shot kind of stands out from a couple of years ago.
I shot one on the side of a big oak and knew when the trigger broke I was a bit high. Still, I expected him to drop on the spot.
Instead, he headed straight up the tree, ran about 5 yds. along a limb and tried to jump to another tree.
He made about 5 yds. on the jump, but hit the ground about 5 yds. shy of the tree he tried to jump to.
When I got to him he was stone dead between the roots of a wild pecan tree that was full of holes on the trunk.... he definitely tried to get to his den!
When I skinned him I found the pellet had hit the top of his shoulder breaking it and breaking the offside shoulder also.
How he ran that far and fast with broken shoulders i’ll never know.... are they tough?
You betcha!
Also found a new respect for my lowly 880 and wadcutters... that shot was at least 25 yds.! :o
Still broke both shoulders!
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I shoot around a dozen a year. I have killed them with .177, .22, and .25 caliber pellets. A good hit to the central nervous system with any of those is usually quickly lethal. I have had bad luck with neck and torso shots though. Most of my shots are between fifteen and twenty five yards. I have had a squirrel soak up two .22 CPHPs in the chest from a Hatsan mod 125 and keep running. I recovered it only because I have a good squirrel dog.
The vitals on a squirrel are small and what looks like a solid chest hit can still miss the heart and lungs. Head shots are the rule for my less powerful guns but I will take torso shots with both my .25 cal guns. They may run, but they won’t run far.
More than once I have had to shoot a squirrel two or three times to kill it after crippling it with the first shot. I mainly shoot treed squirrels. Sometimes my first shot will knock the squirrel out of the tree and my dogs are trained to recover the squirrel and they will kill it if it is still moving.
Of note. My .22 cal XS60C is my most lethal squirrel killer. It makes about 15 fpe with 18 grain pellets and it is the most accurate gun I own. Every squirrel it has killed was felled instantly with a head shot.
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I've only shot grey squirrels. Head shots are normally instant death. Sometimes they flip all over the place as the nerves cook off even though they're already dead. Centered frontal chest shots will often be DRT with a little kicking. What'd you think would be a good side body shot (for me) usually results in a runner. I haven't shot near as many as others here but this is my experience.
I bought a 22 Hw50 to flatten squirrels and it turned out my 177 Hw30 was just as effective in my small yard, once I relegated my self to taking only head shots. Head shots were my best guarantee the wouldn't run off and die in my neighbors yard 30' away. My problem is grey squirrels around here are twitchy like a crackhead. So making good head shots is tough and anything less than perfect body shots they'll run before expiring. In the open woods I have more latitude on shot placement. I might shoot out to 40ish yards so I use my 177 Hw50.
Read this if you want to see how tough they can be.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=165939.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=165939.0)
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Most of the squirrels I have shot with an air rifle were grey squirrels and on the ground. Ranges were from 20 to 40 yards. Most were DRT. A few either jerked around a little or took one big jerk when shot. A lot just dropped like dead weight. One notable one ran about ten yards then up a tree into a crotch of a branch. Second body shot took it out of the tree. The first shot had been through its brain - through and through back to front .22 cleaning a bunch of the brain and stem out and destroying most of the front of the skull. It was DRT but the word hadn’t reached all of the rest of it. They are tough alright. Only a little blood from the head wound and none from the second shot so I’m pretty sure it was already dead in the tree, weird.
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I take my daisy 880 loaded with wadcutters to the woods for squirrels each year... especially the early season when the leaves are still on the trees and shots are pretty close... 25 to 30 yds. being a “ long shot” that time of year.
As you said I use both head and body shots out to about 30 yds. and drt is the norm.
However, one shot kind of stands out from a couple of years ago.
I shot one on the side of a big oak and knew when the trigger broke I was a bit high. Still, I expected him to drop on the spot.
Instead, he headed straight up the tree, ran about 5 yds. along a limb and tried to jump to another tree.
He made about 5 yds. on the jump, but hit the ground about 5 yds. shy of the tree he tried to jump to.
When I got to him he was stone dead between the roots of a wild pecan tree that was full of holes on the trunk.... he definitely tried to get to his den!
When I skinned him I found the pellet had hit the top of his shoulder breaking it and breaking the offside shoulder also.
How he ran that far and fast with broken shoulders i’ll never know.... are they tough?
You betcha!
Also found a new respect for my lowly 880 and wadcutters... that shot was at least 25 yds.! :o
Still broke both shoulders!
+1 on the Daisy rifle and wadcutters. If you find a Daisy that shoots really well (sadly, some of them are mediocre) it's the absolutely the best value in airguns. Meisterkugelns in .177 are deadly and can penetrate about 2 inches of ribcage and vitals, ending up under the skin of the shoulder on the opposite side. Not bad for a frying pan flying at about 600 fps!
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It's probably the 20 yardish range you shoot. I shoot mainly ground squirrels at about 30-40 yards. I also dispatch tree squirrels at about 15-20 yards. The ground squirrels seem tougher.
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Brendan, it seems you have been hunting squirrels for sometime now, I would think your experience has something to do with your POI on them! Even @ 25yds, critters might move so your patience and shooting ability are at work here....nice shooting and hunting! Ethical hunting/pesting is something I try my best to adhere to.
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You wanna good combo. Hw50 and the 9.3 gr Supermag wadcutters. Packs a wallop and limits pass throughs. Gives you a heavier frying pan with a little more range than the Meisterkugeln. ;)
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I've always been a big fan of Meisterkugelns, but then I tried Supermags. They are my goto for a hunting wadcutter now.
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I shoot about 40-50 a year my backyard is similar to Mr edgun lesheys where it almost seems no matter how many I kill they're in the garden, trees, roof etc. Shot placement is key, most of my shots are under 30yds but a pellet to the vitals will do it, not as fast as cns but they'll die. I occasionally have one run up a tree then they get wobbly and down they come. I'm using Walmarts finest 22 cal crossman hollow points...
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Fox squirrels IME are harder to kill than grays or reds. I quit hunting fox squirrels with .177. My shots tend to be long and I lost a few with .177. I prefer a gun in 22 or 25 that shoots right at 900 fps.
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I've lived where I do now for 32 years and I know I've killed over a thousand of them, my best year ever was 112. most of them were shot with a Crosman pellgun 180. But I gave that gun to one of my sons and now I use the .25 Marauder which just analytes them. The Marauder is actually much quieter then that old 180 which is good because where I live is very suburban. When the hides and tails are good I throw them in the freezer and when squirrel season opens a local taxidermist gives me two bucks a piece whole! Where I live they are a freaking plaque!
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I've only been killing them with PCPs for 2 years and only in my backyard. I've killed 35, 15 with a Prod (22 caliber) and 20 with two 25s (18 with a P35 and 2 with an Avenger). The first few were with the Prod in it's original tune and 2 ran into a neighbors yard. I increased it's power after than. I went from about 13-14 fpe to 17-18 fpe and I recovered the last 11. I'm not sure my notes are good enough to say how far each ran but my impression is it was more than with my 25s. Roughly half were body shots, and those were the runners, none of the head or neck shot squirrels ran. I could head and neck the same, I've seen no difference in the reaction. I also tested penetration at 25 yards into a couple dead squirrels. At the original Prod tune only a heavy pellet would go through but with my current tune, the 14.66 grain FTTs the Prod likes will go through on a side shot. I want the to drop, not necessarily to get pass through, but I think pass through may help them die quicker.
All 20 of the squirrels shot with 25s were recovered. Only two ran any distance and they went 15 feet or less. Both were lengthwise body shots that did not break legs. They and a shoulder to shoulder shot were the only ones that did not exit. Other 17 went through. Some head shots did not appear to directly hit the brain. But the skull was obviously smashed when I picked them up. Seems like a squirrel skull can't take the impact from a 25. I hit one in front of the eye and it still was DRT. It was admittedly a little 8 ounce one. 18 of these were with my P35 which likes little 20 grain FTTs and shoots them about 875 fps. 2 where with my Avenger which likes FX 25.4s and is shooting them about 930 fps. Both Avenger kills were body shots and I put two pellets into one of them. Might not have needed to. Only one of the P35 kills required more than one pellet. I shot at that squirrel first with some twigs between me and the squirrel. It ran but stopped flat on a limb. It didn't run as well after the next shot but still ran. It stopped in a high crotch of a tree and a bad angled shot missed. I moved and got a better angle and hit it in the head and it fell immediately. It wasn't tough, I just started taking bad shots instead of waiting for a good one.
I've only shot one rabbit and it was with the Prod at it's current ~18 fpe tune. The rabbit weighed 3 lbs. The greys I've killed average 12 ounces. The pellet went end to end of the rabbit. I know it would not have penetrated that far in a squirrel. Hide is tougher but the muscles of a squirrel are also denser - that's why we have to cook them so long. Rabbit ran about 50 feet. That's further than squirrels have run, however. One of my theories is that the size of the hole needs to be compared to the size of the critter. A 22 caliber hole in a 3 lb rabbit is not as much of it's area as it is in a 1 lb squirrel. So it looses a smaller percentage of it's blood in a given amount of time. At least that's my theory.
I plan to buy a higher powered 22 and a reasonably powerful 177. I will test the 177 projectile it likes in wet magazines to get a handle on likely penetration in squirrels. I know around 600 pages will give me about the penetration as the Prod and should therefore kill effectively. If it will do this with an expanding projectile it may even kill quickly. But maybe it won't be that different. That is what I want to find out. I want to kill a dozen or so to get a decent idea how it does. The Prod does not have the power to penetrate deep enough with expanding projectiles. But a higher powered 22 may.
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I plan to buy a higher powered 22 and a reasonably powerful 177. I will test the 177 projectile it likes in wet magazines to get a handle on likely penetration in squirrels. I know around 600 pages will give me about the penetration as the Prod and should therefore kill effectively. If it will do this with an expanding projectile it may even kill quickly. But maybe it won't be that different. That is what I want to find out. I want to kill a dozen or so to get a decent idea how it does. The Prod does not have the power to penetrate deep enough with expanding projectiles. But a higher powered 22 may.
I'm also one of those who suspects that two holes are better than one, especially in the vitals. I'm definitely biased towards penetration rather than "energy dump" or similar ideas. It's been claimed (in other places) that small calibers make "ice pick" holes through the target. I can see why that could be undesirable. On the other hand, why has an ice pick been such a popular murder weapon down through history? Because it works! You just have to put the hole in the right place.
Some time ago I watched a series of videos put out by a pair of Brits about which caliber they thought was better for pesting with their sub-12 fpe air rifles. Their main conclusion was essentially .177 for longer range rabbits and birds out in the fields, and .22 for short range rat and pigeon whacking around buildings. One thing one of the guys said that has stuck with me, however, is how he shot a (for them) invasive gray squirrel with a .22 domed pellet right in the noggin and it survived, at least until he came up to it and finished it. The placement was perfect but it only caved the skull in without actually penetrating and hitting the off switch. The squirrel was severely disabled and probably not going to survive but it was definitely still breathing and possibly suffering. I suspect if he had taken the same shot with a .177 dome it would have been lights out because the kinetic energy of the pellet would have been concentrated on a smaller surface area, thus punching through to the brain. Now, we don't have that arbitrary power limit over here in good old 'Murica, but some of us (um, me) are shooting low-powered guns out of economic necessity. Their experience was a lot more relevant to me than to most others who will read this. 30 fpe in .22 is going to do just fine but it won't be coming out of anything I own for a long time.
Once again, to each his own. I'm not going to rag on anyone for their choice as long as they're sincerely trying to avoid needless suffering.
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I'm really interested in testing penetration of .177 caliber projectiles out of something more powerful than my little 5 fpe Crosman pump up. I hit the shoulder of a squirrel with that and it did not make it through. The squirrel died but slowly and I don't use that gun on squirrels now. I suspect a 177 at 12 fpe would penetrate similar to my 18 fpe Prod.
I've shot my little 177 into wet magazines and home made ballistic gel. I got 200-300 pages of penetration in wet paper with pointed Crossmans going further than gamo redfires. When I shot ballistic gel, the redfires went in about 4.5 inches and the pointed crossmans went entirely through a 9 inch block. The redfires made a noticably bigger cavity with the pointed crossmans more like an "ice pick" hole. I may not test in ballistic gel any more because I think it overstates penetration in squirrels and it's harder to do than using wet magazines. But getting roughly half the penetration from a projectile that expands versus one that doesn't is what I've also seen in paper with 22 and 25 calibers.
But again my priorities are first, placement. I don't think the caliber or projectile can make up for bad placement. Next is sufficient penetration. For me that is about 600 pages of wet magazines. That is about the level of penetration required to shoot through a dead squirrel from the side. Third is size of the hole. 177 seems like if is kind of small so I'm hoping a ~20 fpe 177 can get the necessary penetration from an expanding projectile it is accurate with but we'll see. I also think they might drop quicker with a 22 with some expansion but until the first two criteria are satisfied I won't address the third. My Prod can't get the penetration with an expanding projectile. I think 25 caliber holes are big enough for squirrels, I've tested some slugs in my 25s but I am not anxious to switch because the only ones that seem accurate enough will not expand unless I at least turn up the regulator on my P35 and probably increase the size of the transfer port too. That will really cut my shot count and the FTTs work great.
Said a different way, if we put the hole in the right spot and have enough penetration, I think we will get at least acceptable results regardless of caliber. Larger holes seem to kill quicker but smaller holes kill small game quick enough (but again my experience with 177 is very limited). Putting hole size ahead of placement or penetration can easily give us unacceptable results.
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(https://i.imgur.com/1zVhs3T.jpg)
It depends on the 'squirrel'.
I have found that: TREE squirrels tend to be like bunnies. You say 'boo' and they fall over dead.
GROUND squirrels are a whole different kettle of fish!
They can be stopped with one shot, of course. However....I have seen some 'squirrels' soak up as many as 6 shots of .25 leadful goodness and STILL run/limp/wobble as far as 40 yards from the point of impact(s).
I've seen some that will fall over dead....and then, a long minute later, they'll hop up as if they had just finished an afternoon nap and were ready to go dancing.
Ground squirrels are some tough critters!
:o
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I also think it depends on the squirrel. I've had them drop immediately from body shots and run as far as 15 feet with a hole through the length of their body. Running at all with a hole that starts in the chest and ends behind the back leg seems kind of tough to me. But as I said earlier I had a bunny run further than that and I don't think bunnies are tough. I saw one killed by dirt.
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These two though they were tough🙃
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My experience has been a good brain or spinal cord shot (or both if it's a head-on shot) stops them in their tracks but most body shots, even in the heart, they will run for a bit until the blood flow doesn't reach the brain anymore.
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I agree Larry. You at least have to count on some running post hit if you shoot the body. If you break a leg (hopefully front) that may slow them down but will not eliminate the chance of them running. How far they run also seems to be influenced by the size of the hole I make.
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In my experience the only “instantly fatal” shots I’ve ever managed we’re accidents. Missed head shots that hit the spine instead. Danrned effective but not a shot I would intentionally try.
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I got a red chipper today with a head shot and it died so instantly at first I thought I missed it because I didn't see any movement at all after the hit through my scope at 10X but when I walked up to it there it was in the exact spot I shot it.
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I cannot remember a head/neck shot that was not a drt situation. Maybe they take one step. Usually not even that. I've hit the head but not the brain and still they dropped immediately.
In terms of toughness of squirrels I also think of my more limited dove experience. I've shot about 12 (don't keep notes like I do with squirrels) and lost a couple with my 25 caliber P35. I have lost no squirrels with that gun. In the case of the lost doves I saw a puff of feathers but I am pretty sure it was from the bottom half of their body, not the chest. I hope I missed them but I think I hit low and they died later. I wouldn't say a dove is tough, I've also killed them by shooting through the chest from the back side, but they still need a solid vitals hit to drop quickly.
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Yes, no, sometimes, always, easy, hard, headshots only, vitals all day, never lost one, can never recover one, need hollowpoints, killed 1000 with a red ryder, anything less than 68 ft lbs is unethical.
Those are pretty much the typical answers on how tough any critter is to kill according to the masses.