GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Diana Airguns => Topic started by: MP44 on March 27, 2022, 10:01:40 AM
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I know two cons are weight and how hard it is on scopes.
I just sold my last pcp and am thinking of replacing it with a springer. I have an FWB300S and really like it. If the 300S was shooting a few fpe more it would do the job ( pests <45yds ). I realize the quality of the 54 is not in the same league as the 300S but is the firing behavior, hold, etc. basically the same?
I do own an FWB124D ( 3 of them ) and while I shoot them well from the bench or repetitive position, I have difficulty making longer-range hits while "out in the wild".
So, if I can deal with the weight and mount a decent scope on it, would the D54 do what I want?
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Like you I have a 300s and 124D (only one). I have factory sights on the 300s and as good as it shoots it lacks the power and is too heavy and not designed for field use. My 124D has peep sights and I have no problem with longer shots, maybe not on the smallest of targets though, but that's my eyes. I also have a Diana 54 AirKing Pro. It is heavy, very heavy, heavier than the FWB 300s, and is a beast to cock. Unless you get a good rest I doubt that you will hit anything in the field or have a build like an olympic weightlifter. I have a couple of others that might do better with your requirment, Weirhauch HW 77 and a HW98, The 98 is a brake barrel with a stock having an adjustable comb, scope only, I have a moderator on mine and it is fairly quite. THe other is an underlever and I have it equipped with a globe front sight and an old Anschutz match rear diopter sight. I did shoot it a little with the factory irons, a standard front blade and a fairly nice adjustable leaf notch rear and did quite well with them.
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I don't want another regular recoiling springer. My 124Ds are scoped and I can regularly hit small targets at my required pesting distance but that accuracy doesn't translate over to the field due to the nature of the recoiling spring gun
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Just thinking of my physique now, I'm 76, not particularly strong but not a weakling either, I would hate to think of an offhand shot at a pest with the 54. I did smallbore match back in college, but that was the early-mid 60's. Offhand I might make a body shot on something like a rabbit, but would rather pass on that. Any thing on a living target would for me require a rest, even with a smaller lighter rifle nowdays.
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I usually use the side of a tree or fence post, which I imagine changes the recoil and POI of the springer. I was hoping the sliding action of the D54 would eliminate most, if not all, of that problem
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I don't want another regular recoiling springer. My 124Ds are scoped and I can regularly hit small targets at my required pesting distance but that accuracy doesn't translate over to the field due to the nature of the recoiling spring gun
I'm not familiar with any of the guns above but reading the post above has me wondering if you need another springer at all. If you can hit small targets at the required pesting distances during practice but not in the field perhaps the difference is the way you practice. All guns can change their zero when shot with different holds or styles. Springers are particularly sensitive to this.
I used to zero my PB guns on a bipod off a bench. In the field without the bipod and bench my accuracy was terrible. A range officer explained to me that he had the same experience on an expensive guided hunt. The guide explained that he had to zero the gun the way it will be used in the field. That's made a big difference for both of us. I'll shoot from a table but I never use rest on my field carry guns. The only guns I use bipods on now are heavy barrel Varmint guns because that's how I use them. If a gun is accurate shot one way it should have the potential to be accurate another way, but the zero may change significantly. In short practice and zero the way you hunt.
Not sure if you've done this already but this was something that got me and I thought maybe it might help you.
Good luck
Ron
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I don't want another regular recoiling springer. My 124Ds are scoped and I can regularly hit small targets at my required pesting distance but that accuracy doesn't translate over to the field due to the nature of the recoiling spring gun
I'm not familiar with any of the guns above but reading the post above has me wondering if you need another springer at all. If you can hit small targets at the required pesting distances during practice but not in the field perhaps the difference is the way you practice. All guns can change their zero when shot with different holds or styles. Springers are particularly sensitive to this.
I used to zero my PB guns on a bipod off a bench. In the field without the bipod and bench my accuracy was terrible. A range officer explained to me that he had the same experience on an expensive guided hunt. The guide explained that he had to zero the gun the way it will be used in the field. That's made a big difference for both of us. I'll shoot from a table but I never use rest on my field carry guns. The only guns I use bipods on now are heavy barrel Varmint guns because that's how I use them. If a gun is accurate shot one way it should have the potential to be accurate another way, but the zero may change significantly. In short practice and zero the way you hunt.
Not sure if you've done this already but this was something that got me and I thought maybe it might help you.
Good luck
Ron
I did not have this problem with my PCPs ( lots of them ).
When I sight in and shoot with my SP guns, I hold the forend in my hand and rest my wrist on a bag or other support and do not use a rear bag. I can shoot them just about as good leaning over a car. Just not when I lean against a tree, limb, fence post..etc.
I don't want this to turn into how to shoot a springer post, I am wanting to know if the D54 will act more like a pcp ( I know it will not be exactly the same )?
I do appreciate all the input though.
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I don't have a D54, but it's been on my short list for several years (a second-hand specimen hasn't turned up my way in all this time), so I've looked heavily into it.
To answer shortly: Yes, the D54 acts more like a PCP than any other sporter springer. I suspect that is the main reason the very expensive, and heavy, gun is such a good seller these very days, after 30+ years of production.
Then there are guys like Hector who have lived with D54's in hand for years or decades. I hope they show up here.
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I usually use the side of a tree or fence post, which I imagine changes the recoil and POI of the springer. I was hoping the sliding action of the D54 would eliminate most, if not all, of that problem
Yes, the sliding action of the D54 will eliminate most, nearly all of the recoil/POI shift compared to traditional springers. The two biggest concerns with these guns are the weight (which you know of) and deciding what caliber to choose.
I have two Diana 54 Air King Pro's, one in .177 and .22 caliber. Both are very accurate. The furthest I've taken a pest on my property was just shy of 53 yards (via range finder) and that was with the .177 with a mounted bipod.
These guns aren't 100% recoiless like a pcp, but I believe they're as close as you can get, especially from a magnum class springer. Changes in hold will shift POI slightly, but with a consistent firmer hold repeatable accuracy can be easily had. There's kind of a mental disconnect I get when I take these guns out. When I take a shot, I still expect to feel some recoil, but for all intensive purposes they are recoiless. Not trying to sound contradictory, but the D54 has a shot cycle unlike any other springer I've shot. The accuracy rivals or bests the PCP's I've owned.
Hopefully this is of some help, and other D54 owners chime in with their expirences.
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Also:
1) What is a good scope for the D54? Small & lite and I prefer one with fixed parallax if possible. I have a couple of Leupold 2-7X28 Rimfire Specials I would like to use but from my understanding, Leupold isn't repairing scopes anymore and are replacing them with new models when sent in under warranty. Same with a Weaver Rimfire R7.
ETA: A Leupold Freedom 3-9X33 EFR would be at the top of my list if I go the AO route and if they have good reviews holding up on the most violent springers.
2) Are the stocks interchangeable between the older model and the newer version? If I have to purchase a new model I would want to find an older version stock to swap with if that is an option.
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I usually use the side of a tree or fence post, which I imagine changes the recoil and POI of the springer. I was hoping the sliding action of the D54 would eliminate most, if not all, of that problem
Yes, the sliding action of the D54 will eliminate most, nearly all of the recoil/POI shift compared to traditional springers. The two biggest concerns with these guns are the weight (which you know of) and deciding what caliber to choose.
I have two Diana 54 Air King Pro's, one in .177 and .22 caliber. Both are very accurate. The furthest I've taken a pest on my property was just shy of 53 yards (via range finder) and that was with the .177 with a mounted bipod.
These guns aren't 100% recoiless like a pcp, but I believe they're as close as you can get, especially from a magnum class springer. Changes in hold will shift POI slightly, but with a consistent firmer hold repeatable accuracy can be easily had. There's kind of a mental disconnect I get when I take these guns out. When I take a shot, I still expect to feel some recoil, but for all intensive purposes they are recoiless. Not trying to sound contradictory, but the D54 has a shot cycle unlike any other springer I've shot. The accuracy rivals or bests the PCP's I've owned.
Hopefully this is of some help, and other D54 owners chime in with their expirences.
Thanks!!!
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Also:
1) What is a good scope for the D54? Small & lite and I prefer one with fixed parallax if possible. I have a couple of Leupold 2-7X28 Rimfire Specials I would like to use but from my understanding, Leupold isn't repairing scopes anymore and are replacing them with new models when sent in under warranty. Same with a Weaver Rimfire R7.
ETA: A Leupold Freedom 3-9X33 EFR would be at the top of my list if I go the AO route and if they have good reviews holding up on the most violent springers.
2) Are the stocks interchangeable between the older model and the newer version? If I have to purchase a new model I would want to find an older version stock to swap with if that is an option.
You will most likely need a droop compensating mount. I'm using RWS one piece mounts on my 54's. On one of the rifles I'm using a scope very similar (a clone) to a UTG true Hunter class 4-16X40AO. On the other I'm using a Burris, but forget which model exactly.
I've read good things about the Diana ZR mount. I believe it has droop compensation also, but you can use a scope of your choosing as the mount takes the recoil (Zero Recoil).
I can't speak to the stocks being interchangeable or even available, as I honestly have no idea. I'm sure someone will chime in (Hopefully soon) to answer any questions for you.
Paging Hector... ;) ;D
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I tried one of the Diana ZR mounts using a Hawke Airmax compact scope, and if it had droop compensation it did not work. I endedn up getting a set of Sports Match adjustable mounts, Re-centered my scope and proceeded to zero the rifle very close using the mount adjustments, and fine tuning with the scope turrets.
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I went out to shoot mine a few minutes ago, off a bench, to see if the scope had maintained zero. It apparently had, The light is getting dim, about 7:45 here in E. Texas. I have a few swinging targets, 1/4" steel, really made for .22LR. My 54 is a .22 and it was really flipping that diamond that looks to be about 1 1/4" on a side. I was shooting at 100 feet, measured as I laid out the target locations with a tape measure a couple of days ago. With the cocking effort required I will say this is one gun that is not well suited for extended shooting sessions. The best in that regard is the FWB 300, then the FWB 124, then a tossup between the HW77 and 97kt, followed by the HW98. The ergonomics on that hard cocking side lever are not good by any means IMHO.
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I owned a RWS 54 prior to shooting PCP's. It was my primary hunting air rifle and shot it almost daily. It is heavy, hard shooting and accurate. It routinely hit starlings at 50yds. I killed a groundhog with it at 30 yds. Sold it to a friend after buying a PCP and he shot and killed a coyote. One of my favorite springers, the 54 is a unique gun.
Had a Burris Mini 6 on mine for several years without problems.
Jim
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Also:
1) What is a good scope for the D54? Small & lite and I prefer one with fixed parallax if possible. I have a couple of Leupold 2-7X28 Rimfire Specials I would like to use but from my understanding, Leupold isn't repairing scopes anymore and are replacing them with new models when sent in under warranty. Same with a Weaver Rimfire R7.
ETA: A Leupold Freedom 3-9X33 EFR would be at the top of my list if I go the AO route and if they have good reviews holding up on the most violent springers.
2) Are the stocks interchangeable between the older model and the newer version? If I have to purchase a new model I would want to find an older version stock to swap with if that is an option.
I have a D54 in .22. Yes its heavy for off hand shooting. But its experience does not compare to other springers in that stable shot with very little/no recoil. I have a hawke air max on mine with a standard BKL mount. Hasn't killed the scope yet. I've done quite a bit of offhand shooting with it but it does get tiring after a while. I'd definitely preference it as a bench shooting gun. I have a D460 that I find more more fun for offhand just because it weighs less.
I've seen an earlier post by Hector that yes the stocks interchangeable between the older versions (like I have) and the new pro beech and laminate stocks.
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I know two cons are weight and how hard it is on scopes.
I just sold my last pcp and am thinking of replacing it with a springer. I have an FWB300S and really like it. If the 300S was shooting a few fpe more it would do the job ( pests <45yds ). I realize the quality of the 54 is not in the same league as the 300S but is the firing behavior, hold, etc. basically the same?
I do own an FWB124D ( 3 of them ) and while I shoot them well from the bench or repetitive position, I have difficulty making longer-range hits while "out in the wild".
So, if I can deal with the weight and mount a decent scope on it, would the D54 do what I want?
Dear MP44;
As always, to define a shooting system, you should start with the specific objective in mind.
There are no specifics about what is your "Required pesting distance", for some this is 35 yards, for others it is 50 yards, for others it may be 100 yards, and still some need to shoot at 5 yards. Completely different problems.
You also mention that "if the FWB300 had a few more ft-lbs" it would be good, so that makes me believe that you would be happy with a 12 ft-lbs gun, FWB 300's can be made to shoot 6-7 ft-lbs with the right spring, SOME have reportedly reached 8 ft-lbs, but I have never seen nor shot one. I did shoot AGAINST one in the first Pyramyd Air Gunslynger match, and beat it, so I would tend to think that the 8 ft-lbs quoted were sort of the "round up" from a real 7.51'ish ft-lbs.
So, that is one possible avenue for you.
The other possible avenue is getting an OLD Walther LGV and "souping it up" to 8 ft-lbs, as long as the distance is not much greater than 27 yards (25 meters), they do well with Non-lead GTO pellets.
You also seem to be VERY doubtful about the usefulness of the 54's weight. Well, a 54 is no heavier than a "normal" 300 when they are both scoped with the same scope and mounts (do remember there are lighter variations, but the REAL 300 is a heavy match gun). So I really do not see the validity in many shooter's objections about the 54's "heaviness". Now, this is spoken by someone that shoots 3 days/150 shots FT matches with a 15-16 lbs rig. Am I a "weightlifter"?, ROFL! Heck no, I weigh all of 172 lbs soaking wet, at my nearly 66 years, I am no longer what I used to be 40 years ago, but I keep healthy and shoot a lot. SO that exercises all the right muscles.
It also seems that you are happy with the weight and power of the older FWB guns, and, while not as "heavy" as some Match guns (the 300 International among them), they are not in the HW95/D34 weight class.
My wife's new FWB Sport weighs 10# scoped, her FT D54 (Large scope in Accurized ZR Mounts) weighs 11 #.
Older FWB Breakbarrels were a bit lighter, but not much. IN GENERAL, the rule is to have a lb of weight per ft-lb of muzzle output to get consistent, ergonomic, accuracy and shootability.
Some shooters complain about the side-cocking being "unnatural", and yet at 22# Peak Cocking Force (PCF), the short stroked D54 is the most efficient piston airgun out there, yielding between 10 and 13½ ft-lbs depending on the tune, the barrel and the pellets.
Now, supporting ANY spring gun asymmetrically (as in the sides), is a recipe for disaster, but you say that you do not want this thread to become a "how to shoot a springer thread" so I will not go there nor explain, I will just say here that for SIDE SUPPORTS, even RF & CF rifles shift their POI, as do ALL projectile shooting devices. If you say your PCP's did not, let me put that in serious doubt because it runs counter to my experience with VERY GOOD PCP's (Steyrs). They do not SHIFT AS MUCH, but they do shift.
There is, it is true, a "gap" in the recoil-less actions power yield, on one hand you have the old Match guns that were designed around the Olympic limit of 5.5 ft-lbs (7.5 Joules), like the Anschütz 380, the DIANA 65, 66 and 75, the FWB 300 and others, then comes the 54 that is designed to output between 17 and 24 ft-lbs depending on the caliber, there is one sort of "Stepchild" in the middle with the TX200 SR that can output between 10 and 13 ft-lbs, but getting one is a challenge.
That is why CCA came up with the short stroked D54, it "fills the gap".
Would a short stroke work well in 0.22" and shoot out to 100 yards? No.
Will a short stroke 0.177" cal. D54 shoot within 1½"circles at 55 yards under field conditions all day in the right hands? Yes. That is exactly what it was designed to do: shooting FT under International rules.
Have CCA WFTDF D54's been used for pesting and hunting? Yes, more than a couple of dozen do "Yeoman Duty" overseas. Most in professional's hands that do NOT like publicity, fora, nor the internet, LOL!
What is the cocking force of a full power D54? PCF will be about 42-45# with a good tune using a #1 Titan spring and yielding about 16-17 ft-lbs in 0.177", 18-20 ft-lbs in 0.22"
Stocks are FULLY interchangeable between the oldest and the newest (three different variations of the stock).
Once you put an Accurized ZR Mount on top of a D54, you can use ANY scope (it does not even have to be "airgun rated") without fear of damage to the scope. People use Accurized ZR mounts to use VINTAGE, irreplaceable, scopes they simply love to shoot. So, any scope will do if you decide to invest in the proper mount.
Lightest high precision scope out there is the SIGHTRON 32X benchrest scope. The Athlon optics smaller scopes are also light and good. Vortex Diamondback scopes are EXCELLENT scopes, built like tanks and their warranty is the best in the industry (even for "accidents in the field"), but they weigh a bit more. SIGHTRON discontinued for a short while their smaller SIH-FT scopes, but I am told they will come back into production later this year.
Last thing, that very few people mention: You need to specify how many shots you take in a "sit down/outing":
If you sit down/go out and shoot a few dozen shots and then change gun or go back for a glass of burgundy red, then you do not NEED the weight, accuracy and consistency of a heavier gun. It is when you need to ensure a full day of performance where there is no substitute to solidity and robustness.
So, whether these realities "jive" with what you are looking for, or not, it's up to you to decide.
As usual, more information would allow us to help you better.
Paraphrasing Detective Joe Friday: "Just the facts, just the facts"
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Thanks for all the replies.
I think I am going to order the D54 in .177 with beech stock as soon as I can find a dealer with one in stock. I am not a fan of the red laminate.
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You will not go wrong with a 54 .
Mitch
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Thanks for all the replies.
I think I am going to order the D54 in .177 with beech stock as soon as I can find a dealer with one in stock. I am not a fan of the red laminate.
I have them in stock.
Same price as Pyramyd Air.
Send me a PM or contact me through my website page:
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/contact-us.html (https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/contact-us.html)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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@MP44
I trust Mr Medina. He has repaired a D54 w T1 trigger, and then tuned it, and installed a great scope for me. It's in .22 and he nicknamed it "Lazurus." (Long story.) He customized a Z Diana Scope Mount and the result is a 50 yard tac driver w JSP 15.9 domed pellets. He also sold me a stock D54 w the T6 trigger and a slight tune. I have no problem shooting the D54 off hand with a heavy scope. It's all about technique. I am very comfortable with 20 to 25 yards shorts standing off hand. Outside that range and I need something to lean on or brace the rifle. Good luck and hope you go withe Diana. If you are going to hunt, get the .22.