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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Big Bore AirGun Gate => Topic started by: triggerfest on March 07, 2022, 03:47:39 PM
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...that's the question.
Choosing .25 is an easy pick and a very versatile caliber. Though going .30 or even .357 is tempting as well.
Haven't decide exactly on the airgun yet, since they're all powerful in these calibers anyway. But what do the big bore calibers deliver more, besides a big smak, compared with .25 ?
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Big smack and big air use. If you are target shooting, then you may not want to go bigger than 257 (for distance). For distance the longer the length of the ammo, the better (within reason) for a higher BC, and again 257 and maybe a 257 conversion is what you might want. Things like a converted Bulldog with it's .750 inch long magazine give you an almost 3:1 length to diameter, but it will be a custom mod.
If you are hunting up to "big" game, then lots of smack is just what you need. You can always regulate the amount of smack by using different weights of ammo, but air usage is pretty much air usage and will be big for bigger calibers.
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What Greg said about big air usage is no joke. The big bore's use way more air, so you are constantly filling the cylinder to be consistent in the shot string when target shooting. If not needing a really large big bore for bigger game then I would be inclined to get a decent 30 caliber. There is a decent amount of shots per fill and a large variety of ammo available to choose from based on the game or distance shooting from.
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They are fun but they also use alot of air and the ammo is pricey compared to the smaller calibers.
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I've got .30 .357 and .50. Not legal to hunt anything but small game and predators in my area. I do enjoy shooting them. They use a ton of air in a short shooting session. To hunt with would be great though. I had a hard time getting .30 ammo for a while. Lots of 9mm.357 38 ammo choices. I usually shoot round ball from my 50. If I was to seriously hunt with a bigbore I'd get a texan. To me it's a simple light weight tool for the job. Another thing to think about is where you are shooting. I have to travel to shoot big bore. Not backyard friendly.
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If I were buying a big bore today I would be shopping in .357 which allows for air bolts, great long range slugs, most have enough power for deer, and not quite as much air consumption as .45 or .50+ That is of course unless you really want that extra kick from going to BIG bore.
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My question to you is what do you want it for? To hunt or target shoot.
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Agree, NOT back yard friendly!
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I just got a .357 along with a mold so I can cast my own and avoid that whole nightmare. Just got it out of curiosity, and to have something yto tinker with since my AF guns are all as good as I am likely to get them.
I bough this to learn from, to tune/modify as best I can, and mainly for plinking and low-stress target shooting.
Working now with quieting it down as I will be testing in my garage in the burbs. Moving to a rural area soon though thank goodness where it will get to shed the moderator and lengthened shroud and revert to it’s compact and ridiculously loud form.
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My question to you is what do you want it for? To hunt or target shoot.
+ 1
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Regardless,...Big bores are cool, if you have the chance to shoot in your yard get one ! ;)
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My question to you is what do you want it for? To hunt or target shoot.
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Target shooting and plinking for the moment.
But it is like Nomadic Pirate says, they're cool for sure ! I only can't shoot one in my garden unfortunately, I'll have to drive to the range for shooting it. So that's a potential show stopper. Regarding the air consumption, I have a scuba bottle and planning for a hand pump as well so I can manage that.
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My question to you is what do you want it for? To hunt or target shoot.
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Target shooting and plinking for the moment.
But it is like Nomadic Pirate says, they're cool for sure ! I only can't shoot one in my garden unfortunately, I'll have to drive to the range for shooting it. So that's a potential show stopper. Regarding the air consumption, I have a scuba bottle and planning for a hand pump as well so I can manage that.
Yeah that's a bummer, I don't think I would be into Airguns at all if I had to drive to the range.
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If you are filling from a tank, then I would recommend something that only fills to 3000 psi so that you can get a few fills per session. Getting something that will gobble a tank (tethered) after a dozen shots doesn't seem like it is worth doing.
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I made the decision to get one that fills to 4500 PSI. This definitely constrains my options. I used to wear enough to pump up to about 4000 psi but I shed some pounds and I can’t do it anymore, that I hadn’t accounted for.
My plan:
1) find a lower fill tune at around 3000 - 3500 psi for lighter rounds, using a lighter spring and hammer, for plinking and closer range use. I can hand pump easily enough for that tune I believe, or use a tank of I ever purchase one. This will be for shooting JSB 81 grains and I am looking at a couple of 60-80 grain molds for this.
2) find a high power tune with heavy spring and hammer (likely a “cliff tune” with mine) for those times more range or destructive potential is called for, knowing that by the end of a single magazine, I will have to be switching to lighter projectiles or refilling, this one I will fill with the compressor.
Not planning to hunt, it’s just a matter of what I am plinking at and where, these are all about entertainment for me. No PB’s, this big bore will have to scratch the hand cannon itch for me. No need to mention there is no comparison of course. :) spent (so far) the most hours shooting with an old .177 760 so it is quite a blast to me to shoot a .357 air gun.
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Assuming you have a 357, I don't think you are going to find much lighter than around 80 grains, at least I haven't found anything lighter. NOE has a hollow point that is 88gr flat and down to 84gr with the "big" hollow point, they seem to cast OK but I haven't really had them at any range yet.
For a "plinking" level of big bore, the Benjamin Bulldog is probably the most friendly. 10 shots per fill and will take cast 80-ish grain for light loads up to 145gr for reasonable power. With the 3000 psi fill, you can pump it, and I have pumped mine a bunch. Not the most fun, but the hand pump still works.
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There are some molds out there for 60-80 grain .357. Accurate molds builds them to order. Manny helped me find these, thanks manny. the 61 grain pancake wad cutter is an odd one. The idea of shooting 9 mm pancakes kind of amuses me but they are so ridiculously non-aerodynamic I don’t know what to think. like it is already expanded…
Is there anyway to know ahead of time whether these will be stable out of a particular barrel? I know someone here was talking about calculations for that.
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.357 caliber is a tall order just to shoot at the range for fun. I do it with a .357 Slayer slinging my own 155gr cast slugs from two different NOE molds using a 60-minute SCBA tank. I shoot tethered after the tank reaches 3800 psi. I can shoot for my full two-hour time slot which includes cold lines every 15 minutes. I went to the range frequently when sorting out my casting but now mainly go just before deer season to make sure all is still well as it takes a lot to shoot .357 caliber just for fun. I couldn't imagine trying to do this with a hand pump. I can say you would have just as much fun punching paper with say a .25 or .30 caliber. I cast for those as well and they take a lot less lead and air and can be typically shot from the backyard with the proper equipment and safety precautions. You are not limited by range times either.
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.357 caliber is a tall order just to shoot at the range for fun. I do it with a .357 Slayer slinging my own 155gr cast slugs from two different NOE molds using a 60-minute SCBA tank. I shoot tethered after the tank reaches 3800 psi. I can shoot for my full two-hour time slot which includes cold lines every 15 minutes. I went to the range frequently when sorting out my casting but now mainly go just before deer season to make sure all is still well as it takes a lot to shoot .357 caliber just for fun. I couldn't imagine trying to do this with a hand pump. I can say you would have just as much fun punching paper with say a .25 or .30 caliber. I cast for those as well and they take a lot less lead and air and can be typically shot from the backyard with the proper equipment and safety precautions. You are not limited by range times either.
This is solid advice. If the ammo cost for .30 and higher calibers don't get you, the air consumption will.
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Thanks for all the insights, I get it, and I will stick to .25 as being a great alternative. Or maybe even stick to my trusty caliber .22, but then I will opt for shooting slugs.
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Arrows, 140gr boolits, 300 fpe?
Also a side lever, what more can you ask for?
.357 AEA
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Just for plinking if I were you I would just spend the gun money on a lot of .25 pellets and be done with it.
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Arrows, 140gr boolits, 300 fpe?
Also a side lever, what more can you ask for?
.357 AEA
Only downside is weight and length, I have one in .45
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I would set my future sites on an FX Impact II. It's an awesome platform with easy forward cocking that produces lots of very consistent and accurate shots. With its external adjustments you can easily tune it to whatever your backyard can stand with either slugs or pellets. It's my favorite platform that keeps me smiling every time I take it out.
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I went with the Benjamin bulldog .357
In factory form it got about 20 useable shots with 81 grain pellets.
Very accurate and about 160 ft lbs of energy.
Gt bullets sells some .380 88grain hollow points in .357 size and were $11 per 100.
Super accurate
Mine shoots just about any 380,9mm,357 and .38 pistol round avalibe.
All of them are cheaper than .35 pellets
It's my favorite versatile gun.
I no longer use my .22 or .25's
I hunt dove,rabbit,coyote and deer with 1 caliber.
.25 cal can do the same.
I now cast my own .38 ammo so plinking is cheaper for me.
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What is the MAX slug length in the AEA Precision Challenger Bullpup Big Bore 357? ???
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.357 airguns that shoot in the 130-150 FPE range are a lot of fun, can shoot both pellets and light bullets, not to bad on air and put a big smile on your face.
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This one for example is a fine machine and priced right
https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/wts-ataman-m2r-357-price-drop/?referrer=1 (https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/wts-ataman-m2r-357-price-drop/?referrer=1)
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.357 airguns that shoot in the 130-150 FPE range are a lot of fun, can shoot both pellets and light bullets, not to bad on air and put a big smile on your face.
I agree and as stated this reflects my intended use. The Hp max has a steadily declining shot string as set up by the factory. the descent is nice and linear - at any spot on the slope, the difference between the last shot, the current shot, and the next shot is all about the same. This is a kind of “useful inconsistency” if you get to know the gun well.
I’m just plinking and having fun, and the gradually reducing power over time isn’t an issue. I wonder about the stability of projectiles at lower speeds of course - something I don’t know enough about.
At some point I’m either going to have to buy a bunch of JSB or get a mold in the 70 - 80 grain range So I can get higher velocity at those lower fill pressures
I believe Doug Noble has some projects going to try to get high energy out of much lower fill pressures. I don’t know any specifics but it would be nice if airgun mfrs. were able to do some real research and development in that area (if it is possible).
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What is the MAX slug length in the AEA Precision Challenger Bullpup Big Bore 357? ???
You should double check, but if you mean in the magazines, I think I saw .59” on a web site. My HP max is more like .49” space in mag. I suggest you ask the vendor to measure / double check when purchasing because I was told the Max was .59 when I bought the gun, but that was an error.
Obviously you can load much longer projectiles one at a time.
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Thank you, that will determine my purchase.
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A random benefit of shooting 357 projectiles is recovery of lead is a joy compared to .177 or .25. Big flattened pieces pile up in the trap about the diameter of a quarter, very easy to gather and melt for casting. :)
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A random benefit of shooting 357 projectiles is recovery of lead is a joy compared to .177 or .25. Big flattened pieces pile up in the trap about the diameter of a quarter, very easy to gather and melt for casting. :)
I have plenty of them to try already! ;D
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Sweet! Like candy…
Is the one on the left from an arsenal mold? I was ogling a 110 grain mold of theirs that looked like it would drop those. What’s the weight on the round nose? Those look like they have a high BC I would think.
The one that has the profile of a new crayon tip is a wild looking one
The round nose really looks it’s designed to travel have to look for a mold like that.
I am only shooting one thing because some enterprising person decided to make off with the four tins of jsb 81 gr that had been delivered to my mailbox last week, and I went through all my NSA. >:(
I would say the part where the heavy air use is most noticeable to me was in the initial set up of the gun... That would be a time to shoot tethered if it all possible. It was a (not unpleasant) chore keeping this topped off while trying a few sights, getting one well centered (made harder due to my forgetting to tighten the barrel grub screw after taking the barrel off), then testing printed baffles to quiet it down, chrony testing etc.
I have to find a 2 L, 3 L, or 6.8 liter tank to put in a backpack and just have on hand whenever I am shooting the 357. :)
About to get an acecare from aliexpress in either 3 or 6.8 L. Trying to visualize what this will be like to carry in a duffel or backpack. Any thoughts on ideal size / volume / source. I don’t need DOT will fill at home.
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The round nose looks similar to a Lee 356-125-2R. They work very well in my Bulldog.
Which black powder coat is that? I want to get something like that.
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Thanks for the reply's, gents!
The crayon is the old style LEE Truncated 9mm, replaced with the LEE 358-105-SWC mold. The far left one is an old Elmer Keith IDEAL mold, the third one from the left is an old LEE mold that has been replaced by 358-125-RF.
The fourth from the left is the current LEE C358-158SWC mold and the far right is the current LEE C358-200-RF mold.
What I am MOST exited about is throwing trashcans at targets!!!
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Ok… trash cans are looking nice.
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Ok… trash cans are looking nice.
Who can say no to a 100% meplat and perfect accuracy? ;)
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Are you casting these or buying them somewhere? I think accurate molds had a couple of designs that were like that in their catalog. Including some very short ones that were like little pancakes at about 64? grains. Wonder how they shoot…
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Are you casting these or buying them somewhere? I think accurate molds had a couple of designs that were like that in their catalog. Including some very short ones that were like little pancakes at about 64? grains. Wonder how they shoot…
It's one of the LEE molds i have. Out of a "special" .38, it is hole on hole. Out of a "legend" 350, it guts yotes. Can't wait to shoot them from an AEA!
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Sweet! Like candy…
Is the one on the left from an arsenal mold? I was ogling a 110 grain mold of theirs that looked like it would drop those. What’s the weight on the round nose? Those look like they have a high BC I would think.
The one that has the profile of a new crayon tip is a wild looking one
The round nose really looks it’s designed to travel have to look for a mold like that.
I am only shooting one thing because some enterprising person decided to make off with the four tins of jsb 81 gr that had been delivered to my mailbox last week, and I went through all my NSA. >:(
I would say the part where the heavy air use is most noticeable to me was in the initial set up of the gun... That would be a time to shoot tethered if it all possible. It was a (not unpleasant) chore keeping this topped off while trying a few sights, getting one well centered (made harder due to my forgetting to tighten the barrel grub screw after taking the barrel off), then testing printed baffles to quiet it down, chrony testing etc.
I have to find a 2 L, 3 L, or 6.8 liter tank to put in a backpack and just have on hand whenever I am shooting the 357. :)
About to get an acecare from aliexpress in either 3 or 6.8 L. Trying to visualize what this will be like to carry in a duffel or backpack. Any thoughts on ideal size / volume / source. I don’t need DOT will fill at home.
I do own a 3.000psi 3L tank, for exact the same purpose (carrying in a duffel). I can definitely recommend not to go any bigger. At least for me 3L is at the limit in terms of portability and still being agile if needed. And I am tall strong guy.
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That’s what I needed to hear, thank you.
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Anything larger than a 25 cal is only practical as a hunter. A 257 is maybe the most versatile caliber. Still uses a lot of air and 3000psi is not enough to reach it's full potential. If your not going to invest in a 4500psi scba cylinder, gauges, and a compressor, I recommend you not buy into the whole big bore thing. I love my .308, It can take down a 300 lb hog no problemo, but it is relegated to hunting scenarios on acreage the same as my AR is. I just bought a .177 for squirrel patrol here at the house because all my other airguns pack to much power.
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Speaking of which I now have an Acecare 3L on the way
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General peak power on a Bulldog is 2700psi which is where the Pitbull regulator mods are set and where I've found the most power too (2700-2800) or about 2-3 shots down from full. Big power does not always need high pressures, but high pressures can give you more shots per fill, depending on configuration.
Umarex Hammer is "regulated" around 3000psi, in quotes because I have not been able to verify since I haven't had been able to keep one in my hands for more than 2 days. That regulated 3000psi is a large volume of air in a fairly large plenum, leading to 3 shots regulated.
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Anything larger than a 25 cal is only practical as a hunter. A 257 is maybe the most versatile caliber. Still uses a lot of air and 3000psi is not enough to reach it's full potential. If your not going to invest in a 4500psi scba cylinder, gauges, and a compressor, I recommend you not buy into the whole big bore thing. I love my .308, It can take down a 300 lb hog no problemo, but it is relegated to hunting scenarios on acreage the same as my AR is. I just bought a .177 for squirrel patrol here at the house because all my other airguns pack to much power.
Why is that? I am shooting 46gr RN slugs at 800fps. 65fpe is enough energy to take down just about anything under a deer.
The DAR runs 3k max.
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The fact that the bulldog gets high power out of a lower fill is fantastic. How long is the barrel on the Bulldog? Wait… there is no excuse to ask this kind of stuff with the internet on-hand. 28”
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Anything larger than a 25 cal is only practical as a hunter. A 257 is maybe the most versatile caliber. Still uses a lot of air and 3000psi is not enough to reach it's full potential. If your not going to invest in a 4500psi scba cylinder, gauges, and a compressor, I recommend you not buy into the whole big bore thing. I love my .308, It can take down a 300 lb hog no problemo, but it is relegated to hunting scenarios on acreage the same as my AR is. I just bought a .177 for squirrel patrol here at the house because all my other airguns pack to much power.
Why is that? I am shooting 46gr RN slugs at 800fps. 65fpe is enough energy to take down just about anything under a deer.
The DAR runs 3k max.
My 'Claw makes peak power at 180b, which is a respectable 75 FPE and ammo is not too expensive. In fact, it's time to order some more. Now that I have a bottle, shooting is way more fun and I won't be able to keep up with casting until I get an exterior outlet sorted out. Casting with fire is too slow for the air supply I have now. Plus I killed my .22 cal mold out of inexperience.
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The fact that the bulldog gets high power out of a lower fill is fantastic. How long is the barrel on the Bulldog? Wait… there is no excuse to ask this kind of stuff with the internet on-hand. 28”
I do wish it was longer to squeeze all you can out of the air charge, but they found a moderate balance. Even the new Bulldog 457 is a moderate power level, they certainly know how to make more and at $1000 it might have got me to purchase it it was making 600fpe. Maybe. Still some things I do not like about the new BD457 which probably would have stopped me. Maybe when Pitbull does a little work on it and I can get one for less cash, $600 would have been a yes, $800 would have still been a maybe, $1000 is just about a hard NO. Only bought the Hammer because I found a "deal".
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Thanks for the reply's, gents!
The crayon is the old style LEE Truncated 9mm, replaced with the LEE 358-105-SWC mold. The far left one is an old Elmer Keith IDEAL mold, the third one from the left is an old LEE mold that has been replaced by 358-125-RF.
The fourth from the left is the current LEE C358-158SWC mold and the far right is the current LEE C358-200-RF mold.
What I am MOST exited about is throwing trashcans at targets!!!
A variety of home cast I throw down range out of my Bulldog and "trash cans" would be cool too. Note in the photo are some of the 158 grain SWC TL and 173 grain Kieth bullets I make.
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Anything larger than a 25 cal is only practical as a hunter. A 257 is maybe the most versatile caliber. Still uses a lot of air and 3000psi is not enough to reach it's full potential. If your not going to invest in a 4500psi scba cylinder, gauges, and a compressor, I recommend you not buy into the whole big bore thing. I love my .308, It can take down a 300 lb hog no problemo, but it is relegated to hunting scenarios on acreage the same as my AR is. I just bought a .177 for squirrel patrol here at the house because all my other airguns pack to much power.
You can get 160+ fpe from a .257 at 3000 psi. That's enough to propel 257420s at 1000+ fps and 257388s over 920+ fps so I'd say that's enough potential for most airgunners.
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Bigger the bore and bigger the fun factor. Air and lead are consumables just like everything else.
You pay for the fun, but it still doesn't make it less fun.
Back when racing, a set of slicks and 150l of racing fuel for the weekend. That was expensive, but boy how fun.
Or night at the bar, some games and fun. For those that are in for that kind of stuff.
If it's fun it comes with a cost of some sort.
So if you feel the need for big bore, go for it.
Marko
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That’s some truth right there, especially “You pay for the fun, but it still doesn't make it less fun” which is like a law physics in the realm of human decision making.
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Thanks for the reply's, gents!
The crayon is the old style LEE Truncated 9mm, replaced with the LEE 358-105-SWC mold. The far left one is an old Elmer Keith IDEAL mold, the third one from the left is an old LEE mold that has been replaced by 358-125-RF.
The fourth from the left is the current LEE C358-158SWC mold and the far right is the current LEE C358-200-RF mold.
What I am MOST exited about is throwing trashcans at targets!!!
A variety of home cast I throw down range out of my Bulldog and "trash cans" would be cool too. Note in the photo are some of the 158 grain SWC TL and 173 grain Kieth bullets I make.
Nice selection! I am wondering what a maximum slug weight would be for the HP Max. I’m not really clear on what some sweet spots are in a scenario shooting heavier large diameter projectiles at lower velocities.
Any thoughts on how heavy you can go with this gun, and what kinds of velocities indicate you have gone too far?
Here are some numbers for this gun which are without added washers or hammer weights
81 grain at 130 fpe (video)
96 grain at 140 fpe (personal test)
108 grain 150 fpe (personal test)
125 grain 154 fpe (personal test)
Thanks for any suggestions
Edit: added chart of data from my chronograph. The range for each weight is large due to other variables like some
shots were with more spring preload than others. This just shows the range of values I was getting in the first three shots
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Thanks for the reply's, gents!
The crayon is the old style LEE Truncated 9mm, replaced with the LEE 358-105-SWC mold. The far left one is an old Elmer Keith IDEAL mold, the third one from the left is an old LEE mold that has been replaced by 358-125-RF.
The fourth from the left is the current LEE C358-158SWC mold and the far right is the current LEE C358-200-RF mold.
What I am MOST exited about is throwing trashcans at targets!!!
A variety of home cast I throw down range out of my Bulldog and "trash cans" would be cool too. Note in the photo are some of the 158 grain SWC TL and 173 grain Kieth bullets I make.
Nice selection! I am wondering what a maximum slug weight would be for the HP Max. I’m not really clear on what some sweet spots are in a scenario shooting heavier large diameter projectiles at lower velocities.
Any thoughts on how heavy you can go with this gun, and what kinds of velocities indicate you have gone too far?
Here are some numbers for this gun which are without added washers or hammer weights
81 grain at 130 fpe (video)
96 grain at 140 fpe (personal test)
108 grain 150 fpe (personal test)
125 grain 154 fpe (personal test)
Thanks for any suggestions
Edit: added chart of data from my chronograph. The range for each weight is large due to other variables like some
shots were with more spring preload than others. This just shows the range of values I was getting in the first three shots
Hmmmm, dont know if the MAX is going to shoot slugs, its a choked barrel.
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It is un-choked according to bin tac
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So ultimately I went for a .25 and the winner is.... An Evanix Rex-P :D
Now I need to find out if I can shoot JSB- or H&N slugs with the Rex-P. I think I need to connect with mister Rex himself aka nomadic pirate.
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I bought the gt bullets .38 148 grain wad cutters(trash cans) and my bulldog loves them.
Bought the Lee mold and cast my own
I'll look for photos but 60 yards are one ragged hole groups un tethered
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It is un-choked according to bin tac
Sorry P, I saw MAX and thought JTS not AEA. :-\ ;D
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So ultimately I went for a .25 and the winner is.... An Evanix Rex-P :D
Now I need to find out if I can shoot JSB- or H&N slugs with the Rex-P. I think I need to connect with mister Rex himself aka nomadic pirate.
I want to get that REX .25 rifle that Airgun Pro Shop has :)
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Great choice I am guessing. The Rex P has been the only other gun that I’ve added to my cart like four times in the last year. Has a nice direct air path like AF guns and they seem like they’d be simple to maintain. Did you get the newer one with the bottle?
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Great choice I am guessing. The Rex P has been the only other gun that I’ve added to my cart like four times in the last year. Has a nice direct air path like AF guns and they seem like they’d be simple to maintain. Did you get the newer one with the bottle?
..."added to my cart like four times in the last year." I hear you ;D glad I have pulled the trigger now.
Not the bottle version, though the 'regular' one with the tube. I defintely need to order one or two spare tubes as well. Btw, the bottle version, is that one available in .25 too ? Because that might be interesting to buy the bottle instead of spare tubes...
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That was the one I had my eye on - the newer one is nice but pricey and has a less appealing form. I still am itching for the original…. Actually got the max when I saw the price because of similarity to the rex p (compact, high power, simple design).
Sounds like the tanks are similar to airforce also (valve built into the tube or tank itself so it can hold air when detached). That is ideal.
I’ll be keeping an eye out for any post you make about your experiences
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I would agree in most small game cases, where just poking a hole through the animal, that the small calibers are enough. But here in the west, it was won with big slow moving chunks of lead, killing the buffalo. The larger meplat of a big caliber projectile, really smacks the animal good, knocking it down. If you use a small caliber high BC slug, on too big an animal, it is going to have the same effect as shooting an animal with a field point instead of a broad-head. If you are back yard plinking between houses, then in my opinion even a 25 cal might be too big, having more than enough energy to penetrate fence slats and house walls.
It really comes down to intended purpose and since I live where people are spread out I go big because we are not regulated to the size nonsense that some locations have. Having the large meplat projectiles ensures that I do more than poke a hole in the animal. I know a lot of people harp on shot placement but often those people do not practice enough the actually place the shot consistently.
I have shot plenty of deer, elk and caribou of the years, using archery, modern firearms and black powder to know that if the shot does not take out both lungs and the heart or wipe out the brain pan the animal can run and that is where a big piece of lead knocking it down really helps out in hastening the kill.
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I got the big bore AEA .357 slb Challenger yesterday. This thing is a beast, my neighbors called the cops. I think they called because they thought it was the new neighbors on the other side of us that like to do mag dumps at night. I can shoot a Zeus in my backyard, but that .357 got the neighbors attention.