GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Crosman Airguns => Topic started by: TheOtherSprocket on March 01, 2022, 11:26:57 AM
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Several years ago, I bought this remanufactuered 1377 and stock for about $50 and summarily stashed them in the closet. The I stumbled into this forum and remembered what I had and saw what could be done with them. This is how it starts and why I have to modify nice things.
[pic 1]
I started reading everything I could find here pertaining to the 13XX platform and the wheels started spinning, smoke started billowing and ideas started flowing. Recently I’ve settled on a plan for my build, please let me know if you have any suggestions, advice, or warnings. The intent is to build a backyard plinker/rodent reduction tool basically everything inside of 50 yards. Sure I could get a new 362 but where’s the fun in that?
[pic 2]
Phase 1 mods (approx. $150 budget):
• Steel breech kit - .177
• CenterPoint 4x32 scope
• Buck & Rail Plumper Pumper forearm
• Buck & Rail LDC & barrel adapter for stock length barrel
• Details – pivot pin and screw as needed
• Williams rear sight or LPA MIM (free with points) – help me decide
• Shoot the snot out of it
I’m not planning any internal mods or changes – the trigger is quite nice, firm and smooth – I wish some of my centerfire pistols had a similar feel. I contemplated a 14.5” barrel, .22 conversion and internal changes but I had to calm down and establish a budget. Honestly, a Drifter with steel breech upgrade from Pyramid Air would probably cheaper in the long run than what I’m building but then I would be doing the building – and sometimes it’s the doing that’s the point.
Phase 2 mods (budget TBD-Probably sourced from Alchemy Air):
• 14.5” barrel/band – Probably sourced from Alchemy Air
• Polished hammer
• Piston/valve set – possibly Mellon
• TKO tube
• What am I forgetting?
• More shooting
That’s it for now but I can dream about wood stocks and other things I can’t justify the cost of for this $50 airgun. Please post up any questions or suggestions
A big thanks to this community for sharing knowledge – I wouldn’t be able to pull thing thing together in 30 days like I have.
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I got one of my 1377's for $30. Another one cost $40.
You paid $50 for a remanufactured 1377? I'm going to guess you didn't shop around much before taking the plunge.
I have pretty much everything you cited for Phase 2. Except, I used a 12 inch barrel instead of the 14.5'er.
That homemade 1389 is my favorite hosp killer. I killed 43 hosp's with it last year.
I suspect the 1389 you're in the process of making is going to become your favorite bird gun too. ;)
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You paid $50 for a remanufactured 1377? I'm going to guess you didn't shop around much before taking the plunge.
You misunderstand - I got BOTH the stock and gun for $50 - included a large tin of pellets too IIRC "show special". It could have been less too - been so long I forget - like 10 years or so...
What is a "hosp"?
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You paid $50 for a remanufactured 1377? I'm going to guess you didn't shop around much before taking the plunge.
You misunderstand - I got BOTH the stock and gun for $50 - included a large tin of pellets too IIRC "show special". It could have been less too - been so long I forget - like 10 years or so...
What is a "hosp"?
I dont kill em…meats too tough..lol
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If you can spring for it (it really is worth it) get a maverick custom barrel band, and a gmac steel breech. These will really solidify the gun, where some other steel breeches are loose fitting on the barrel, and every other band I have tried to use has just been unacceptable (including gmac aluminum band)
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+1 to the MCA barrel band... it is well worth it. ;)
@Dallas... Nice looking stock... looks very familiar. 8)
(https://i.imgur.com/VvdAcix.jpg)
Tom West does amazing work! ;D
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+1 to the MCA barrel band... it is well worth it. ;)
@Dallas... Nice looking stock... looks very familiar. 8)
Tom West does amazing work! ;D
;D Indeed, haha, that does looks familiar.
I'm actually awaiting a walnut one for my other 1322 as I got tired of swapping stocks ::)
I love the pump handle, though, I was actually physically harming my elbow using the factory pump arm on the other 1322... The Tom West one has way more leverage and is a breeze. Even with flat faced valve/piston
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You paid $50 for a remanufactured 1377? I'm going to guess you didn't shop around much before taking the plunge.
You misunderstand - I got BOTH the stock and gun for $50 - included a large tin of pellets too IIRC "show special". It could have been less too - been so long I forget - like 10 years or so...
What is a "hosp"?
You got a pretty good deal then. I paid $64, (I think) ... for a 1322 and stock.
A hosp is a house sparrow.
http://www.sialis.org/hospphotos.htm (http://www.sialis.org/hospphotos.htm)
https://www.loyalpest.com/pest-info/birds/house-sparrow/#:~:text=House%20Sparrows%20in%20Central%20and%20Eastern%20Virginia%20Sparrows,can%20carry%20pathogens%20that%20are%20harmful%20to%20humans. (https://www.loyalpest.com/pest-info/birds/house-sparrow/#:~:text=House%20Sparrows%20in%20Central%20and%20Eastern%20Virginia%20Sparrows,can%20carry%20pathogens%20that%20are%20harmful%20to%20humans.)
https://agrilifeextension.tamu.edu/library/wildlife-nature-environment/controlling-house-sparrows/ (https://agrilifeextension.tamu.edu/library/wildlife-nature-environment/controlling-house-sparrows/)
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Establishing a baseline for performance:
25' distance - Indoors - 10 shot patterns - 5 pumps - stock sights (not the best sights I've ever used, I'd even call them "crappy")
CPHP (need to verify weight) = 1" pattern pretty consistently
Crossman "Copperheads" (need to verify weight) - they look like a field point vs wadcutter/HP = 3/4" pattern
More research needed on the patterns. I'm leaning toward the LPA rear sight, one for the low profile once the scope goes on and two because the peep type isn't something I use on other platforms.
I'm wondering how the 10gr pellets would perform assuming the ones I'm using are in the 7 range. While this will primarily be a plinker, pest control will be in play. The goal is to find a tight set up and just run with it - the cost of pellets is just a matter of "doing business" but shooting more for the same money has value too.
I'm seeing now why the tall rings are prevalent - loading can fussy at times even without a scope in the way.
I need to address the "CLACK" - new forearm is arriving today so I'll have it installed soon and will find some velcro tape when I get the parts for the pivot arm replacement.
The breech is already on order from PA along with the glass. The MCA barrel band looks out of budget but I can see the attraction. Nice stocks - also out of budget for me, I've got too many other areas to focus on at the moment.
I forgot how much fun pellet shooting can be - I'm trying not to go into a 22 set up but it's not out of the question either, to the dismay of my rimfires...
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Aaaaaand - Mr Mellon just received an order for FTP parts and a barrel...
This place is GREAT! And by "great" I mean "evil to my wallet"...
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Aaaaaand - Mr Mellon just received an order for FTP parts and a barrel...
This place is GREAT! And by "great" I mean "evil to my wallet"...
Buck-Rail has some 13xx goodies too. You might as well think about adding a 362 to the stable too. This won't end once the bug bites. ;)
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My issue with my 1322 was that parts would shift around while pumping, so even using a Lothar Walther barrel, my poi would shift around, thought the barrel it's self was capable of 1/3" groups at 25 yards easily. You might also want to try faster speeds.... Might have better or worse accuracy depending on pellet
Oh, and all of the factory crosman barrels I've received (4. 22 cal for 1322 and 2240) they were all awful and shot poorly. Maybe a crown and polish would have helped?
For forearm clack, I glued a piece of felt under mine where it used to hit the tube. But you might want to make some kind of surface with epoxy or something? for whatever you use to adhere to as the new style forearm is pretty well skelotonized underneath
Oh one more tip. Get some Mac1 secret sauce for the pump arm and pin. This will dramatically reduce wear on them over time. I had to replace my tube at one point I'd worn the arm pivot so badly. This inide of a few months.
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Ed - my BuckRail order came today 8) I'll have to fab a pivot pin solution and have a couple options in mind, going to hit the hardware store later this week. I'll need new screws for the B/R forearm and loose the OEM roll pins there while I'm at it.
My PA order is scheduled for tomorrow - breech and scope...
Dallas - What do you mean about parts shifting? My gun seems tight - it's still brand new even though it's 10 years old - just came out of the box last week - not even broken in so there's that. I know that OEM stuff can be sloppy at times but I'll inspect for defects and try pumping things up and see the differences. I"ll definitely watch for the pivot egging out - I wasn't aware that is a thing but now I know.
The forearm from B&R is solid not skeletonized so I'm hoping a felt/velcro strip will help - I'll figure it out.
Thanks for those tips Friends - I'm sure other guns will come into play (replace the 760 from my youth, for instance).
Based on the lead time from MellonAir. I'll tear things down to put on the parts I have and get on with shooting some as best I can. I'm just getting back into shooting in general and being able to get trigger time, even its just blowing air, is a good thing.
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There are two pivots. One on the tube, and one on the arm linkage. Also The linkage was rubbing some serious wear into the side of the cut in the air tube it retracts into.
Basically, I would notice POI shift after pumping sometimes, or shift depending on how I rested the gun (if I did). The plastic breech is suspect. As is the plastic barrel band. I made a 2240 barrel band smaller one time and welded it, and tapped it for grub screws, and this fixed the issue using a gmac steel breech and front plasic barrel band. The first steel breech I got, the barrel fit pretty loosely into it. The gmac... I can shove the barrel into it and without grub screws set, I know it won't shift, it's that snug.... all of this reminds me of a very cheap mod that I think will fix this, but didn't think of till now. Should be able to use a plastic breech and band and have the barrel stay in place....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/291053462592 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/291053462592)
https://www.amazon.com/crosman-1377-1322-barrel-spacer/dp/images/b00dictxo6 (https://www.amazon.com/crosman-1377-1322-barrel-spacer/dp/images/b00dictxo6)
But unfortunately looks like this is not available anywhere.... But you might be able to convince someone to 3d print one.
My gun will hit ants 10/10 times at 25 yards if the parts stay in place. (they do now)
Old setup below.
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Update:
Buck/Rail accessories added - stock roll pins will be replaced with screws later. Once I figured out why my hits were 3" low, I was able to print an acceptable pattern. My shooting ability isn't maxed out but overall I'm happy with the results at 25' - Benchrest efforts will definitely result in tighter groups, this one was as steady as I could get in a chair. The OEM rear sight works for now but I see the LPA sight I have coming won't work with the B/R barrel band without modding the barrel band front blade. I'll have to think about that one before I go cutting anything.
The B/R LDC makes a noticeable difference in comfort. The fit & finish on the parts are nice. I had to file the rear hole on my pump @@@'y to get the roll in installed - It was a few strokes with a diamond file and I didn't want to egg out the plastic because screws will be added shortly.
The barrel band went on fine and holds the barrel snugly - I needed to add a washer in the center of the pump lever @@@'y to tighten it up. Without the washer there was enough wobble in the arm to be real awkward. I may do the same at the rear forearm pin location too - I'll have to see how the screw fits. Everything is tight now but not binding - smooth action.
The steel breech and scope are in but I may wait until the other parts are in to install - the FTP & barrel are coming from Mellon so I know there's time.
Any comments welcomed - Hope you enjoy the pics
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Update:
I fabbed up a pivot pin using brass tube and some #8-32 screws and washers. Cutting the threads was a little fussy but I got it done without deforming the tube badly. I had to drill the valve tube & barrel band out to fit the assembly. 5 pumps in, the thing broke so the stock roll pin got called up for duty... Parts on order now - I wonder if bronze would hold up at all?
The steel breech and scope have been sitting on the table for at least a week and I finally had time to install them. The breech went on easily enough once I figured out the orientation of the barrel port sleeve and everything was snugged down. A function test revealed an obvious difference - I don't have a chrono so no numerical data to compare but yeah, great mod, easily worth the cost/time. When you consider the cost of scope rings and adapters, this increases the value of the mod, IMO.
Next up is the LPA sight - this I redeemed some points and got it for free. Install was a breeze but here's where things get a little fussy. The BuckRail barrel adapter has a very tall front sight post compared to stock as mentioned previously. I'm not sure what rear sight is supposed to be paired with it but when I raised the OEM sight to full height, I was tight at 25' indoors. The LPA maxed out and was still very low - I'll put this on the tall BuckRail sight post, not the LPA part. I really like the LPA part as it mimics the irons on all my pistols.
Interesting to note I ordered it off A-zon and the order was filled by Pyramid (Makes me want to ask if PA would honor A-zon prices for pellets, as they will ship to me but A-zon won't...).
Honestly, I should have stopped here with mods and just run with it but where is the fun in that? Oh yeah, the shooting it part.
Next up is the CenterPoint 4x32 fixed power scope - 4 screws and on. Bright glass, nice reticle - everything I want in a scope. 3" eye relief and it sits nicely on the breech. Now to zero it at 25' while I'm waiting for the thaw.
I saw in another thread where a gent with older eyes added a small red dot in place of a rear sight - That could still happen here and might be the right way to see if those are for me - my centerfires are all currently iron sights but my eyes have changed...
What is in the future?:
14" barrel & band, an FTP kit - both from MellonAir
extended probe bolt, BossBuddy transfer seal, steel pivot pin and a polished hammer with extra power spring from Alchemy Airwerks.
NOTE: Alchemy Airwerks surprised the heck out of me - I ordered early in the morning and received order confirmation AND shipping notification within hours. Either he was patiently waiting for my order or he is very on the ball with customer service. If/when the need arises, I'll be ordering from him again.
Oh yeah - almost forgot - TKO is sending me a trigger and end cap for my barrel. I'll be doing a tally of the costs and post - hopefully someone like me might find it useful in the future.
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That’s awesome! I’m waiting for parts for my 1377 build myself. 🍻
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Looking good so far, Sprocket. I like your LDC.
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Update:
Dialed the scope in - 5 shot groups. Left/top side is some domed pellets I have, not sure of the weight but guessing 7.4. Right/bottom side is CPHP 7.4.
Center is 5 shots - CPHP - I managed to keep calm and focus on consistency & steadiness. I think it worked.
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+1 to the MCA barrel band... it is well worth it. ;)
@Dallas... Nice looking stock... looks very familiar. 8)
(https://i.imgur.com/VvdAcix.jpg)
Tom West does amazing work! ;D
When you install the aluminum barrel band, did you have to drill and if so, did that include drilling through both sides of the stock tube? What sized bit? I spent the 90 bux on that band w/ site for one of my rigs and I stripped out the threads on the screw that came with it and ultimately damaged the threads inside the barrel band. I think I drilled out the tube holes and used a tap to re-thread the barrel band but it was still stripped so i used strong thread locker and it has worked okay since last year. HOWEVER, asfter ruining the expensive band, I swore to figure out the proper way before I ordered another for one of my other guns.
Please tell!
For my contribution to the OP, I got one of the Baker air guns aluminum breech kits for my 2250 clone and I have been very happy with it. The bolt probe it comes with it very nice. I have other guns with the Crosman steel breech and I like both but am trying to find a good reason why the Baker breech isn't better across the board. I suppose steel is more durable, but if you like the aftermarket, I just wanted to contribute to this thread. I also got a 177 version and may put that one a backpack gun to keep it lighter in weight but still an upgrade over the plastic.
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Ed - my BuckRail order came today 8) I'll have to fab a pivot pin solution and have a couple options in mind, going to hit the hardware store later this week. I'll need new screws for the B/R forearm and loose the OEM roll pins there while I'm at it.
My PA order is scheduled for tomorrow - breech and scope...
Dallas - What do you mean about parts shifting? My gun seems tight - it's still brand new even though it's 10 years old - just came out of the box last week - not even broken in so there's that. I know that OEM stuff can be sloppy at times but I'll inspect for defects and try pumping things up and see the differences. I"ll definitely watch for the pivot egging out - I wasn't aware that is a thing but now I know.
The forearm from B&R is solid not skeletonized so I'm hoping a felt/velcro strip will help - I'll figure it out.
Thanks for those tips Friends - I'm sure other guns will come into play (replace the 760 from my youth, for instance).
Based on the lead time from MellonAir. I'll tear things down to put on the parts I have and get on with shooting some as best I can. I'm just getting back into shooting in general and being able to get trigger time, even its just blowing air, is a good thing.
Be careful, when I got back into air guns I only had my old 880 on hand...then within 6 months to a year, I had about 20 more LOL...If I had a do-over, I would have gotten maybe less than 10, but it is a journey to learn what you like again.
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Remember this thread? Well, I finally built something after playing around with the gun above - see below.
Specs:
1322 Tube - Grey "Plasti-Dip" finish to try on the color
Steel breech
Mellon FTP pinned & 14" .177 barrel - I'll move to a .22 at some point.
Alchemy bolt & handle, SS screw set
Buck & Rail Plumper Pumper & AR type Minimalist stock
Bluefork Design trigger group with an Ergo grip I had on hand
TKO ldc 5"
Scope is unknown maker - 4x32 with mil dot reticle I had n hand - rings will change if I keep it, Leupold Rifleman 11MM base.
I came to this design set over the course of the months I've been here lurking learning and studying the mods of the 13XX platform. The Bluefork was a splurge to be honest but it is a sweet trigger.
I'll be doing some chrony work to compare the stock, modded valve and FTP set. Hoping this is as accurate as the above gun.
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My issue with my 1322 was that parts would shift around while pumping, so even using a Lothar Walther barrel, my poi would shift around, thought the barrel it's self was capable of 1/3" groups at 25 yards easily.
No aftermarket slip/screw-on muzzle band will fix that. DIY is the way to go, here.
https://imgur.com/scltEtC
Soldered to the pump tube. Then the barrel slips in/out. And a brass wedge tapped into the slot seizes the barrel in place.
Drill, dremel, files, disc sander.
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My issue with my 1322 was that parts would shift around while pumping, so even using a Lothar Walther barrel, my poi would shift around, thought the barrel it's self was capable of 1/3" groups at 25 yards easily.
No aftermarket slip/screw-on muzzle band will fix that. DIY is the way to go, here.
https://imgur.com/scltEtC
Soldered to the pump tube. Then the barrel slips in/out. And a brass wedge tapped into the slot seizes the barrel in place.
Drill, dremel, files, disc sander.
My barrel is a free float.
Wish Blue Fork still made those bandless plugs.
It looked like Alliance Hobby's "The Floater" but anodized:
(https://i.imgur.com/FJEAMjX.jpg?1)
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I had one CNC-made in stainless years ago:
(https://i.imgur.com/oyP6VHa.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/lFXijRx.jpg)
The CAD drawing was supplied to me by Mr. John, aka JMJNC.
I remember paying around $25 for it, even if it was a one-of-a kind, but that was in Asia ;D
Here is another one:
(https://i.imgur.com/mUCKL8V.jpg)
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UPDATE:
Once I got the correct screws for the trigger group (8-32 - 1/2") and put the thing back together, I decided to test it out.
The no-name scope pictured above was topped out for adjustment, leading me to believe that it wasn't a great choice. I pulled a CP 4x32 off another gun that was known to be reliable.
My first group was a coupe inches low but dead nuts on for windage. So I turn up the dial - same thing - scope is maxed out for elevation adjustment. So I put it down and thought about things.
I pulled the plastic barrel band and yes - it looks like the band is pulling the barrel down - causing the low hits.
Solutions:
Free-float the barrel - downside is that it can get knocked out of zero
a better barrel band - the inexpensive unit described recently in the bargain section comes to mind.
Drill out an OEM barrel band and see what I get for results.
Given the $$ I've dropped so far the metal band is winning out - even if I don't drill it for a grub screw it will limit the amount of deflection the barrel can move.
Any thoughts or experience with this would be appreciated. I'm just glad my scopes aren't the issue.
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My issue with my 1322 was that parts would shift around while pumping, so even using a Lothar Walther barrel, my poi would shift around, thought the barrel it's self was capable of 1/3" groups at 25 yards easily.
No aftermarket slip/screw-on muzzle band will fix that. DIY is the way to go, here.
https://imgur.com/scltEtC
Soldered to the pump tube. Then the barrel slips in/out. And a brass wedge tapped into the slot seizes the barrel in place.
Drill, dremel, files, disc sander.
A floating standard barrel (13xx OEM length ) can also be done solidly if you utilize one of those Disco silencer adapters with a half-moon belly from Serbia and Poland. The adapter melds with the contour of the pump tube and somehow locks the barrel in place. It's even tighter on a 22xx tube, of course, with its larger OD.
I also installed a free-floating 14.5" LW on mine with no change in POI (25 yards), but I did install multiple thin O-rings on the barrel, so that it supports the added weight by creating a damper between the barrel and tube--- kinda like putting a bike tire interior cutout 2 to 3 inches from the receiver of a 10/22 to cheap-bed them standard whippy barrels.
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To clarify, the barrel is 14" and not an OEM length - I'm not sure what adapter you're talking about but I'm guessing its for an OEM length barrel. I'll see if I can find it. Perhaps GMAC has one for reference?
The dampener makes sense to me though.
I'll be trying the metal band from ebay, what the heck.
Thanks
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I'll be trying the metal band from ebay, what the heck.
Reviving this thread for a question --
I picked up a metal barrel band from eBay and now the stock Phase 2 forearm smacks into the barrel band and stops me from getting a full pump.
I can trim the stock plastic forearm to create enough clearance, but I'd rather keep the stock part intact.
Does anyone know if the Buck Rail Plumper Pumper allows for enough clearance to use with a metal barrel band?
Turby
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I'll be trying the metal band from ebay, what the heck.
Reviving this thread for a question --
I picked up a metal barrel band from eBay and now the stock Phase 2 forearm smacks into the barrel band and stops me from getting a full pump.
I can trim the stock plastic forearm to create enough clearance, but I'd rather keep the stock part intact.
Does anyone know if the Buck Rail Plumper Pumper allows for enough clearance to use with a metal barrel band?
Turby
If you are talking about the barrel band from Alchemy... you have to trim the forearm at the ends. I don't know about the plumper pumper but if it uses the same forearm design... most likely?
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If you are talking about the barrel band from Alchemy... you have to trim the forearm at the ends. I don't know about the plumper pumper but if it uses the same forearm design... most likely?
Got it, thanks. I bought a different barrel band but I suspect quite a few of these designs are the same, the barrel band and the stock Phase 2 forearm interfere with each other and require replacement or fitting.
Are there other forearm options out there that don't require trimming?
Turby
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Turby - can you post a pic? Something doesn't sound correct - I have a band on a PH2 gun with factory stock, no issues.
I suspect it's either your band or something else misaligned. Also - I have a set of OEM brown stocks you can have for shipping.
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If you are talking about the barrel band from Alchemy... you have to trim the forearm at the ends. I don't know about the plumper pumper but if it uses the same forearm design... most likely?
Got it, thanks. I bought a different barrel band but I suspect quite a few of these designs are the same, the barrel band and the stock Phase 2 forearm interfere with each other and require replacement or fitting.
Are there other forearm options out there that don't require trimming?
Turby
I would like to see a pic of the one you bought as well. if the front face of it goes straight down and squares off like this one...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/303499445877?hash=item46a9fa0675:g:MJcAAOSwQj9eVZOB&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoMGh0SnJqVEQVBzvW4pCnot98zSYlVxrxxJepa%2FzvvBQb0O69X3Uqgto0R%2Blg59c70qPmhlPO2p90GVIz7qMNf6O%2FMh5marJXQ0oAzrqIea4%2BdoVjzBZwAryCBW6W6IV5TCWHKAeET63K5pTBUZIt5WuoTb%2FcdtnZSzjBCpc6QuBGYGzzxsNxKY7RzwkfIcTYp%2FALNYLptLnT57ujtI4a4o%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6ry05PcYA (https://www.ebay.com/itm/303499445877?hash=item46a9fa0675:g:MJcAAOSwQj9eVZOB&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoMGh0SnJqVEQVBzvW4pCnot98zSYlVxrxxJepa%2FzvvBQb0O69X3Uqgto0R%2Blg59c70qPmhlPO2p90GVIz7qMNf6O%2FMh5marJXQ0oAzrqIea4%2BdoVjzBZwAryCBW6W6IV5TCWHKAeET63K5pTBUZIt5WuoTb%2FcdtnZSzjBCpc6QuBGYGzzxsNxKY7RzwkfIcTYp%2FALNYLptLnT57ujtI4a4o%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6ry05PcYA)
... trimming is necessary. I have one of these from him but without the integrated sight.
These are what I prefer and in my opinion... the best design out there. They are not cheap, but well worth the price...
https://maverickcustomairguns.com/product/crosman-1377-1322-pass-through-barrel-band/ (https://maverickcustomairguns.com/product/crosman-1377-1322-pass-through-barrel-band/)
no trimming necessary, has a set screw, worked perfectly with my plastic forearm as well as my Tom West custom stock/forearm set.
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Here we go gents, 2 pics to show the issue:
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8Zc4zHV/thumbnail-image0.jpg)
Above: The barrel band is just ever so slightly more "pronounced" than the factory one, or even the Buck Rail one. It sticks out forward past the muzzle of the gun just enough to interfere with a full swing of the pump forearm. Stock Phase 2 plastic forearm shown. (Please ignore my janky screw front sight post for now...)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kjj1fN15/thumbnail-image1.jpg)
Above: Because of the interference, the pump cup can't extend out far enough to get a good pull of air to compress.
The easy solution is to just get out a saw and cut off enough of the front of the stock forearm to allow for a full swing of the pump arm. At least, that's how I see it...
Thanks guys for looking!
Turby
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Ok... update... Probably as most of you are, I'm an obsessive tinkerer. This really isn't a hard problem to solve. Give a guy a hammer, a Dremel, and anything can be accomplished:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ydwGz6zw/thumbnail-image0.jpg)
The pump arm, with the stock Phase 2 plastic forearm, now gets full pumps each time it's pumped. Yay! Time to go test!
Turby
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Thanks for the pics - I'll have to check mine now. I've got a couple from a mfgr in China and a couple from Germany - I'll have to check the clearances on each now.
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Thanks for the pics - I'll have to check mine now. I've got a couple from a mfgr in China and a couple from Germany - I'll have to check the clearances on each now.
Nice! I actually bought the German one! It arrived this past week. That's the one shown installed on my 1377 there.
Turby
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Looks good Turby. 8)
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Looks good Turby. 8)
Thanks!
My next problem is there is a bit of air leakage around either the transfer port, or the bolt probe. Going to troubleshoot. I already o-ring'ed up the transfer port nice and tight, so I'm going to focus on the bolt probe next. I think it needs a new o-ring.
I read someone say the bolt probe o-ring is 003, but I have 003 and they don't fit. I think 005 might be the right size for .177. I just ordered some and they should arrive by the end of this coming week.
ETA: I think the transfer port might still be the problem. I see a streak of oil coming out from that area. Maybe it's time to ditch the plastic.
Turby
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I have relieved a cheapo disposable lighter of a very small and thin O-ring that fits the .177 probe slot.
The said O-ring is to be put behind the OEM one.
It fits so snug that when you shift the cocking bolt to its locked position it stays satisfyingly secure with obvious tension.
Unfortunately, not all disposable lighters contain these O-rings, but they were very common in those very cheap translucent lighters in Asia--- like $0.030 cheap, no kidding.
I used to have a bunch of them in Asia 'cuz I would pick thrown lighters and smash them for their offal.
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Thanks for the idea. I have been using o-rings from my HF kit to help seal up the transfer port area. Unfortunately what I think I'm observing is that the plastic breech on my Phase 2 is flexing ever so slightly such that the transfer port + o-ring solution I have in place isn't sealing up well enough to contain the pressure.
Using GTA, I researched converting to a steel breech, but it seems that requires enough mods to a Phase 2 to make it not worthwhile.
I have some irrigation tubing here, similar to the refrigerator water line routine. I might give that a try, as I can cut them a little longer to perhaps offer a better seal.
The transfer port design on the Phase 2 1377 unfortunately seems to be a bit of a weak link in the system.
Turby
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Turby - you can use a steel breech and retain the PH2 bolt - or just get a PH3 bolt and pin for about $20 shipped.
If you're spending $40 for the breech, the extra $20 for the bolt/pin is worth it.
That said, your TP seal issue is fixable.
Also, check the barrel and chamber for burrs - they might be cutting your O rings. Your chasing something very small a this point - keep at - you'll find it
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Turby - you can use a steel breech and retain the PH2 bolt - or just get a PH3 bolt and pin for about $20 shipped.
If you're spending $40 for the breech, the extra $20 for the bolt/pin is worth it.
That said, your TP seal issue is fixable.
Also, check the barrel and chamber for burrs - they might be cutting your O rings. Your chasing something very small a this point - keep at - you'll find it
Thank you for the words of encouragement! Just did another take-down, and I noticed there was a very subtle misalignment between the valve exit port and the transfer port, so I re-aligned it -- though that didn't fix the air leak problem (still fails the tissue test). I did check for burrs, everything is nice and smooth - thanks for suggesting that.
Just trying 1 thing at a time to try to isolate the issue..
For the steel breech + Phase 2 tube, I thought I'd also need to replace the barrel to use the newer steel breech? Saw another thread where a guy suggested that it's not worth it to convert a Phase 2 gun, says you're better off just buying a Phase 3 and starting from there. Guess it's a matter of opinion.
Will think about what to try next. Will report in later this week.
Turby
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Sorry - double post!
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Oh yeah - the barrel - I forgot that - easily sourced from Mr Mellon and would be a chance to add length. Just start with a PH3 gun for that fun.
Personally - I like your commitment to the PH2 set up. It's got to be something you're overlooking somehow. Or seriously drastic like the PH2 bolt doesn't fit the PH1 barrel quite right...not probable but possible.
The German barrel band does not interfere with my PH2 pumping but it's a close tolerance fit. The China band does not interfere with a B&R Plumper Pumper forearm - I did have to file a lot off the band to fit the pump linkage though. I think it's an older ink compared to the newer ones. The other linkage I have fits fine in the other band, no issues...
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Yup, I could buy all the necessary top end parts to go Phase 3, but as you say (and as others have noted), might as well buy a brand new Phase 3 as a starting platform.
Personally - I like your commitment to the PH2 set up. It's got to be something you're overlooking somehow. Or seriously drastic like the PH2 bolt doesn't fit the PH1 barrel quite right...not probable but possible.
Thanks!! I’m determined, maybe even stubborn, because I truly believe that it can be fixed. It’s got to be something so simple and straightforward, I agree. I’ll keep at it. I do have another 1377 I’m working on as well, so I can swap parts back and forth for comparison.
Another reason for me really fighting hard to keep the Phase 2 as a Phase 2 is for the nostalgia of it all. I’ve had these for decades and I’d love to keep them operating as designed.
The German barrel band does not interfere with my PH2 pumping but it's a close tolerance fit. The China band does not interfere with a B&R Plumper Pumper forearm - I did have to file a lot off the band to fit the pump linkage though. I think it's an older ink compared to the newer ones. The other linkage I have fits fine in the other band, no issues...
How interesting that neither of the bands were problematic for your forearms - I wouldn’t have thought that the general fit would vary this much across the population of 1377’s, but maybe I’m wrong there…
Turby
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Looking at the top of the page - if your breech is moving, there's the issue. Something isn't fitting quite right. If you can break it down a dry fit things to make sure the seals are in good shape, etc. Are the screws tightened properly? The rear one with the sight and the small one inside the breech - thinking out loud, if the barrel is lined up on the TP seal, things should just be flat on the tube...
Does everything line up right without the barrel? You've got a PH1 barrel right? Is it fitting in the breech well? The breech and barrel band keep the barrel on the TP seal. Is the seal too long and keeping things misaligned?
I have some PH2 parts from one I tore down and re-used for learning. If you need something let me know and we can sort out something. I've got a working PH2 as well - I need to check accuracy to see if any rifling is left. The parts barrel has a shadow of rifling from the use of BB's...
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Thank you for the continued ideas -- and the offer to provide parts if needed. So kind! (That's why I really like this forum, I see a lot of help, and pretty much zero drama.)
I am back from a short business trip, and was looking again at the problematic 1377. I'm starting to think that the problem is the bolt probe. I actually used a slightly oversized o-ring on it, it's a HF 006, but in other threads I read that the right size is either a 004 or a 005. I have some 005's on the way and was planning on swapping out to an 005 to see if that helps. I feel that the bolt probe might be the issue because I am pretty sure I feel air leaking out of the breech cover when I dry fire (with a wadded up sock at the muzzle to help build up back pressure). I'm going to try swapping the bolt probe today to see if that resolves the problem.
I'm somewhat convinced that the TP seal is pretty good, though I am willing to test that assumption further as well.
Turby
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Can you pull the cover off the bolt and use a screw to cycle the bolt? This would help ID things visually.
And a really dumb Q - Is the barrel a 177 vs 22? The 177 bolt on a 22 barrel would definitely leak at that point I reckon...
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Can you pull the cover off the bolt and use a screw to cycle the bolt? This would help ID things visually.
And a really dumb Q - Is the barrel a 177 vs 22? The 177 bolt on a 22 barrel would definitely leak at that point I reckon...
The barrel is a .177.
I don't need to cycle the bolt to cock the 1377, since it's a PH2 model. It is a rear cocker.
I swapped with a good bolt probe that still has the original factory o-ring and I'm still seeing the tissue test fail. Going to go back to focusing on the TP...
Turby
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Well at this point I'd tear it all down and swap out the TP seal and check the barrel/breech fit.
Be careful on the reassembly - someone here talked about clamping the breech and then installing the screws... Also, I've found that if I install the seal, then the TP on the tube - then loosely drop the barrel/breech onto the tube and wiggle the barrel onto the TP, it all kinda drops into place - then I press the breech firmly and start with the rear screw - then the screw at the bolt. It's fussy so take your time. I pooched a TP by not taking care.
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I'm reading this thread with interest as I've recently upgraded my Ph 2 - 1322 with an Alchemy RP valve, trigger shoe, stainless pin, and adjustable sear spring.
I also cold-blued the barrel, breech, and pump tube while I had it apart. I also polished and painted the aluminum grip frame with some High Heat paint from Ace while I was at it. That paint doesn't hold up well, so I'm looking for a better alternative. But it LOOKS a lot better than it did.
Previously I'd replaced the plastic breech with a steel breech that I got for the price of shipping from a guy (Eric) on the Crosman pistol forum. It didn't have the front small screw hole in it, so I milled a new hole and installed the old screw after carefully grinding down the head. I sanded down the breech end of the barrel (on my lathe) until it fits pretty tight in the breech. I have to use a transfer punch to get it back out. I'm afraid to do that much more as it's marring the bevel seat area where the bolt probe o-ring seats... I need a custom punch...
The new 25% transfer port didn't fit any of the holes, so I just recut some vinyl tubing for the port. Another reason I went this route was that the ports in the RP valve and the barrel don't line up right with the breech hole and the pump tube holes. If I pull the barrel out just .020" then the ports line up, but then the barrel isn't fully seated in the breech, and there's a gap that pellets tend to hang up in.
I wonder if I can dremel or file out the barrel hole so that the holes line up a bit better, and fully seat the barrel. And maybe the transfer port would actually fit? I was wondering if I enlarged the RP valve hole whether it would line up better too. Even getting it lined up then tightening the screw doesn't make it stay in place.
Think that'd be a mistake?
I think I'm still getting another 20fps out of it which puts it around 450 fps @10 pumps, 500 fps @15 pumps, and 515-520 fps @20 pumps.
Do you think I could get any more fps out of this thing?
I'm wondering where to get a barrel band for this thing as I've cracked the original plastic one when removing the barrel/breech the last time.
And also the rear plastic sight base is horrible. It's not long enough, so it doesn't seat correctly on the front edge of the flat. More importantly, it moves so easily it's a wonder that I can hit anything with it. Is there some replacement for that as well?
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Well at this point I'd tear it all down and swap out the TP seal and check the barrel/breech fit.
Be careful on the reassembly - someone here talked about clamping the breech and then installing the screws... Also, I've found that if I install the seal, then the TP on the tube - then loosely drop the barrel/breech onto the tube and wiggle the barrel onto the TP, it all kinda drops into place - then I press the breech firmly and start with the rear screw - then the screw at the bolt. It's fussy so take your time. I pooched a TP by not taking care.
Thanks!
Well - SUCCESS!
Here's what I did -- TP has 2 o-rings, 006's, to help create a good seal. One on top, one on bottom. I am not using the factory TP seal any longer. Bolt probe has the new 005 o-ring installed now. Much nicer fit than the 006 o-ring.
Firing a pellet, the 1377 passes the tissue test no problem now. Nice!! I'm happy.
Thanks to you & all who gave suggestions and stayed with me during this adventure!
Now onto my 3rd 1377..... hah hah
Turby
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I'm wondering where to get a barrel band for this thing as I've cracked the original plastic one when removing the barrel/breech the last time.
I can't help you with the TP port misalignment (I thought I saw the same problem with mine) but I went for this barrel band here:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/115471291600 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/115471291600)
3 available as of this writing. Ships from Germany. Nice solid aluminum plus gives you the ability to mount a 1/2-20 standard UNF LDC.
The only downside is, no front sight, but I found a random correctly threaded screw fits to serve the purpose for now.
Turby
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By the way - I had run into some bad info online about what the right size o-rings are for the 1377. Here is the correct batch I used for my 1377:
.177 bolt probe = 005
Inner valve o-ring = 012
Outer valve o-ring = 111
And my 3rd 1377 was just rebuilt tonight, compresses great, all back together and passes the tissue test.
Turby
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We're probably bidding against each other on some of those...
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We're probably bidding against each other on some of those...
Hah hah! Probably not! My 1377's are vintage from 1990, 1991 -- for 2 of them, I am the first & original owner. For the 3rd one, it came from a friend who was the first and original owner. I have not purchased any 2nd hand or any new 1377's since these purchases were made '90 / '91.
Good luck on your buying!
Turby