GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Hatsan Airguns => Topic started by: Ronno6 on February 11, 2022, 08:38:04 PM
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I have read that it is possible to add air to the Type 3 Vortex ram.
Is it possible or advisable to add a drop or 2 of oil or Secret Sauce to rejuvenate the ram seals when adding air?
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Couple drops of silicone on the gas ram piston arm and it will lube those seals when it slides back and forth through them.
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Pure silicone oil 10 wt should work best but can fudge it a bit.
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Thanks, gents...I'll give it a try!
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I may be too late and should have said this when I posted about using silicone, but be careful if trying to add air to a Type 3 gas ram.
Unless they've changed it since I bought my last one, there's no relief valve/screw on it like some of their other models so while adding air
is easy, there is no easy way to release it if you get too much in the ram. I know the ram body itself says Max 150 Bar, but most come
charged to somewhere between 125-130, which is something to the tune of 1875 psi.
Go over that and you start putting more stress on everything in the rifle. Cocking effort gets harder, recoil gets harder, more strain on the stock and
stock screws, more strain on the internal parts and trigger sear.
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Thanks Steve.
I will pay close attention to that...
Right now I believe it has 0 bar, so I have a ways to go...
Manual cycling should not be too difficult.
So, is it NOT advisable to add oil when charging?
Where do I find videos on disassembly of the rifle?
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Would help knowing which rifle first...lol.
I always just put a couple drops of silicone on the piston shaft. The brass cap that shaft slides back and forth through
has 2 orings inside it that the shaft slides back and forth through when you cock and fire the rifle. You said there's no
pressure in it it and the shaft can easily be slid in and out, just me but it's how I'd get silicone in there. Couple drops,
work it back and forth, maybe repeat that a couple more times. The silicone will work it's way inside the gas ram,
then hope dried seals is why the air bled out.
The few I've tinkered with, I never tried oiling while filling so honestly no clue how hard it might be or if you even can.
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My thoughts were to put a few drops in the probe, then pump.
Hopefully the incoming air would carry the oil inside......
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Adding a couple drops of oil inside should not hurt and may bring back short term function, but I doubt it will permanently fix the leak. Buna, EPDM, Viton o-rings don't "dry out" like the old leather piston seals did and "reviving" them with fresh oil does not work.
These o-rings WILL wear faster when starved of lubrication AND they will DEFORM over time and pressure. As a brewery repair monkey I replace o-rings and other seals on a daily basis. Most are either worn or are deformed from pressure and heat. Only a new o-ring/seal will fix the leak.
Sometimes I run into an o-ring/seal that has been in service for a couple years exposed to high pressure, heat, caustic, acid, and strong oxidizing sanitizing cleaners. The seal polymer has been thoroughly "cooked" to a crispy cracker state and there is NO WAY to revive it. Replacement is the only option.
Although compressed air spring internal pressure is high, there is no adiabatic heating during filling or use. A few drops of high quality silicone oil is likely what the factory put inside during the manufacturing process.
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I store all my gas ram guns with the piston stem pointing down.
This is supposed to extend ram life. So far it has! ;)
-Y
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I guess the only saving grace is that, as it has lost its charge now, even if it comes back briefly, it should lose all it's charge again.....
I do have an industrial heat gun for loosening up the gunk on the threads of the end cap.......
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Cheaper, easier, less hassle to convert it to a spring piston rifle but wait a bit and mikeyb will be in to confirm what I just said.
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Cheaper, easier, less hassle to convert it to a spring piston rifle but wait a bit and mikeyb will be in to confirm what I just said.
At the moment. Hatsan is out of both.............
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Cheaper, easier, less hassle to convert it to a spring piston rifle but wait a bit and mikeyb will be in to confirm what I just said.
At the moment. Hatsan is out of both.............
https://hatsan.com.tr/vortex-gaz-piston-en/
Type 3 Vortex means you are trying to repair a Striker/Edge/Airtact rifle?
I'm searching my notes to see if I have the Edge/Striker/Airtact coil spring dimensions. Once known I think you could find a good coil spring equivalent from Vortek (?)
https://hatsanairgunsusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/AirTact-ED.pdf
You would need the wimpy Hatsan spring guide #498 and two washers, one steel #489 and one polymer #490, as well. Part #488 on the other end of the spring is some kind of polymer disc I "think" is intended to provide vibration dampening and/or slip-bearing function for the coil spring? I've found this disc completely SHREDDED and non-functional in several similar rifles so I think it is pretty useless. Polish the spring ends and add a touch of Moly for smooth spring rotation. Steel spring end polished rotating on steel piston with some Moly works fine for me! If you want a "useful" vibration dampening function add a rubber/polymer disc first topped off with a smooth METAL disc and a little Moly for the spring to bear/rotate on. Just don't go too thick as this adds to spring preload and eventually spring will be coilbound and rifle will not cock.
However, it will probably be easier and definitely cheaper to just install a ~$10 Crosman NP1 gas spring.
See my attached table for air/gas spring dimensions.
I've done the conversion from coil spring to NP1 on at least one Edge rifle and it worked BETTER than I expected! Thought there would be a ~10% loss in muzzle energy but actually measured the same ME (a tiny bit higher).
I did have to make a SPACER ~0.450" long for the NP1 to fit inside the Edge rifle with the proper preload.
May have some photos I can dig up. If I can find them will post back here.
Have NOT tried the NP2 gas spring yet in an Edge action but am guessing a 0.20" spacer should set the proper preload position?
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Thanks, MikeyB !!
I actually have a Crosman NP ram in the parts bin, part # BT9M22-00-5A
What I don't have yet is the Striker 1000X Vortex rifle.
I am awaiting delivery from 2DARK2C from another post on this thread.
As for the prices, Hatsan gave identical prices for the ram and the spring conversion, neither of which are currently in stock.
I am a tinkerer, and I am interested to see if the original ram can be revived, or resealed.
Then there is this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/173267944333?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11011.m43.l1123&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=298fb13a46c54220b24e045566d807e7&bu=43196353763&osub=-1%7E1&crd=20220213054608&segname=11011&sojTags=ch%3Dch%2Cbu%3Dbu%2Cosub%3Dosub%2Ccrd%3Dcrd%2Csegname%3Dsegname%2Cchnl%3Dmkcid (https://www.ebay.com/itm/173267944333?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11011.m43.l1123&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=298fb13a46c54220b24e045566d807e7&bu=43196353763&osub=-1%7E1&crd=20220213054608&segname=11011&sojTags=ch%3Dch%2Cbu%3Dbu%2Cosub%3Dosub%2Ccrd%3Dcrd%2Csegname%3Dsegname%2Cchnl%3Dmkcid)
It is more expensive than either Hatsan option and would take quite a while to get here....
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Then there is this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/173267944333 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/173267944333)
It is more expensive than either Hatsan option and would take quite a while to get here....
My personal opinion is that ebay dual spring solution is a slick marketing waste of money. The small spring is far too weak to add any significant energy. The dual counter wound concentric springs won't bind, but they certainly can't work as good as a single properly fitted spring & guide. IMO a GOOD QUALITY single main spring with a full length and properly fitted spring guide will provide the best coil spring performance.
I'd try installing the NP1. Will post photo of my Edge NP1 spacer shortly.
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My personal opinion is that ebay dual spring solution is a slick marketing waste of money. The small spring is far too weak to add any significant energy. The dual counter wound concentric springs won't bind, but they certainly can't work as good as a single properly fitted spring & guide. IMO a GOOD QUALITY single main spring with a full length and properly fitted spring guide will provide the best coil spring performance.
I'd try installing the NP1. Will post photo of my Edge NP1 spacer shortly.
Your personal opinion means a lot..........
I will probably give the NP1 a go...
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Oops, that was a brainfart error I didn't catch until today!
When I got my first NP1 (early 2018?) and installed it into an Edge rifle I apparently didn't take good notes or photos. On a later parts order from Crosman I ordered a bunch of NP1s and NP2s but didn't pay attention to the specific part numbers. I had thought the "skinny shaft" was the older NP1 and "fat shaft" was the NP2. I had it BACKWARDS! Sorry if that caused any confusion.
Gas/air spring dimension table is now corrected.
In the Edge rifle the fat shaft NP1 gas spring needs about a 0.2"-0.3" spacer WITH a centering function. That DIY spacer is shown in the photos. My spacer is made from a piece of HDPE sheet 1/2" thick. It's from an old discarded kitchen cutting board that I grabbed before it hit the dumpster. Dimensions are not super critical, it just needs to keep the NP centered and maintain enough preload so the NP never hits its internal stop when extending during a shot.
I think...
on my drill press I drilled the NP centering hole with a 3/4" Forstners bit about halfway through (1/4") the 1/2 " HPDE board.
followed that with a 1/4" center hole.
then cut out the 1" OD with either a flycutter bit or a hole saw. Smooth OD edge looks more like my flycutter bit did the work.
finally drilled out the center to 3/8" to fit over that little "nub" on the Edge endcap.
Any reasonably solid stable material will work here. I can tell that my HDPE spacer is cold-flowing (getting deformed/squished) under the constant pressure of the NP1 preload, but it has not moved anywhere near enough to have me worried about preload problems.
edit: Note that my spacer does NOT have a groove cut into it like the Edge endcap. Normally I can remove/install the trigger group WITHOUT a spring compressor and removing the endcap. My spacer LOCKS the trigger group in the action so I MUST remove the endcap to remove the trigger group.
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Excellent!
Would aluminum be too unforgiving for the spacer??
Where can I find disassembly info on the Striker 1000X or another rifle in the group?
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Not Striker 1000 specific, but does have some general information that is helpful.
https://youtu.be/J4ZJOLf8EJ8
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Sometimes this interweb thing just baffles me......
Every vid I see STARTS with the action already in pieces on the bench.
What I need is the vid which starts out with the whole rifle, then transforms it into the
parts and pieces on the bench........... I seem to be unable to come up with the
search words that allow me to arrive at such a video.
Maybe disassembly is straight forward and intuitive, dunno.
But, as I have never torn into a spring action, I would sorta kinda like to see it done.....
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Search for Mike Ellingsworth!
-Y
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Mike E. has some good (yet sometimes overly long and divergent) videos on Hatsan rifles starting with the Mod95 and UP. I have looked in the past and have not yet found a good "full disassembly" Striker/Edge video anywhere on youtube.
This thread and video have some good info on specific mods that make the Edge/Striker trigger MUCH better, but still lack the full disassembly steps requested.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=167795.msg155926034#msg155926034 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=167795.msg155926034#msg155926034)
If this is Ron's first time digging into a springer I understand why the details matter.
First step before ANYTHING ELSE...
Ron, Do you have a solid & safe SPRING COMPRESSOR?
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Mike E. has some good (yet sometimes overly long and divergent) videos on Hatsan rifles starting with the Mod95 and UP. I have looked in the past and have not yet found a good "full disassembly" Striker/Edge video anywhere on youtube.
This thread and video have some good info on specific mods that make the Edge/Striker trigger MUCH better, but still lack the full disassembly steps requested.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=167795.msg155926034#msg155926034 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=167795.msg155926034#msg155926034)
If this is Ron's first time digging into a springer I understand why the details matter.
First step before ANYTHING ELSE...
Ron, Do you have a solid & safe SPRING COMPRESSOR?
Nope. No spring compressor...
Kinda thought gas rams didn't require one...(Shows what Ron knows....)
I do have a 36" clamp, and pipe clamps up to 10' (I will let Ron use it...)
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Nope. No spring compressor...
Kinda thought gas rams didn't require one...(Shows what Ron knows....)
I do have a 36" clamp, and pipe clamps up to 10' (I will let Ron use it...)
Yes, some kind of spring compressor will be needed. Sounds like you may have some clamps that could work.
Preload on a steel wire coil spring can be 0" up to 3". Force needed to compress a coil spring starts at "0" and goes up about 40lbs per inch for this particular case. The Edge is ballpark 2" preload so you would need ~80lbs clamp force for a coil spring.
Preload on an NP or Vortex in an Edge is only about 1/8", BUT the clamp force needed is around 150lbs.
Even though the force to assemble is different, BOTH of these spring store the same energy when the rifle is cocked and the rifles shoot pellets with the same energy.
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Maybe the Striker 1000X Type 3 ram can be charged without extracting from the action ??
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First off, the Edge, Striker and the 1000x rifles are all the same except for minor cosmetic changes. Those differences between them are stocks and
the badging on each rifle to denote which model it is. All the rest is exactly the same. Receiver, barrel, piston and seal, breach seal, trigger group. You can
interchange every last part of all 3 of those models. What works for one will work for all 3.
Second: nope, the gas ram has to be removed from the compression tube to do anything with it. There is no pre-drilled hole in the receiver for it.
Can it be rebuilt?
Yes it can. Yes I have and why I know it can, but it's a pain in the backside and here's why. You're going to need a high pressure hand pump, 1/8 inch BPSS male to female adapter and a Hatsan fill probe.
If you don't have any of it, it's roughly $60-$80 to buy it all. Your other option someone who lives close with a tank or compressor and the right connectors. Have all that?? Then you only need heat, a 19mm box wrench and the o-rings for the brass cap the piston shaft slides through. It has 1 outer and 2 inner o-rings on/in it and those 2 inner rings are the ones that fail since they're the ones that take the most abuse.
It's why I originally said easier and cheaper to just convert it to a spring...lol.
Maybe post a WTB ad and see if anyone has one they'd sell cheap as a parts rifle??
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Geez....that's a bunch of stuff..............but.....i got it ALL !!
Even an industrial heat gun
So....................
I would still consider doing the spring conversion, if Hatsan had any.............
Problem with purchasing a parts rifle is.....I would wind up wanting to fix it,too...just the nature of the beast....
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I have ordered a Crosman NP2 ram, as well as an NP Elite...........we'll check the differences....
The Type 3 ram is not completely depressurized, so disassembly is not currently in the cards.
I have also seen the Welch Willy Spring setup from Woodfield. Dunno if he is still doing those.
Quite a difference from the pumpers I mainly mess with.
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I may make myself an Air-Venturi style compressor by turning a piece of 3/4 iron pipe down to 1" od and securing to the rifle with scope rings, then attaching my pipe clamp.....
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A little something to take into account when you take a shot at building your spring compressor:
The picture is of the back end of the compression tube and rear cap. It overhangs the back of the cap and the safety
lever is part of that cap. You'll need to account for it when putting pressure on that cap to punch the rear pin out.
You'll also want to watch that safety lever because underneath it is a small spring and ball bearing the safety lever
rides on when it's installed so it moves more smoothly. Probably easy enough to build something to replace it but
saves time if you don't have to.
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A couple more taken of my Edge .25 springer just before typing this:
1st one is the rear view of the cap and safety.
2nd one is looking at the right side of the safety and the metal bar attached to it that comes
down and around the right side of the trigger pack.
I take them off before using a spring compressor, which in my case is an actual Air Venturi rail lock compressor, so they don't get bent.
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Yessir. Thanks.
I figured I would machine a block of hardwood to account for all the in-the-way stuff...........
I will be happy when I get to that point.
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Once I put lube and pressure in the ram, will it be safe to submerse in water to check for leaks?
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I have attempted to get some silicone oil into the fill port on the ram, and pumped up to 50bar with a hand pump.
That took quite an amount of effort!
I will let it sit with the shaft down for a day or 2 then check the pressure.
I may use the scuba tank to take it to 125bar.
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Careful if using a scuba tank, those rams fill up fast.
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I used my hand pump to take it up to 100bar...
We'll see if it holds.........
As soon as I find proper scope rings (I have them around the shop....somewhere...), I'll try out my home made spring compressor....
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I pumped 100bar into the Type 3 ram, or, so the gauge on my pump says...
Earlier Steve said that the precharge should be around 120-125bal, so I figgered I was safe.
Having made a scope rail mount spring compressor, I pressed the breech plug back into thew gun...,maybe 3/16" of preload...
I reassembled the rifle, kinda just to see if I could........... and I could !
Now, to cock it................geez...........took ALL I could do to cock it.........I remember that my .25cal Striker 1000X required
me, my neighbor and his 2 grandsons to accomplish that........... This one is no different....
It cocks, and fires.........with quite a BANG !! I would hate to try it with another 25 bar preload......
I messed up my chrony settings so I couldn't get a read, but will correct and try tomorrow.
For now, it works. I will know if it gets any easier to cock........that'll tell me if the ram is holding or leaking.......
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Seems like you have it back together. A Vortex air spring at only 100bar will shoot a little under factory specs. That may not be a bad thing!
If the LOUD BANG was WITH a pellet it was probably just burning off (dieseling) a little extra factory lubrication.
Since this appears to be your first springer just a reminder NOT to dry-fire it.
The Edge/Striker/Airtact rifle family normally shoots in the 18-22 fpe range and typical cocking effort runs around 30-35 lbs. If that feels very difficult you should avoid getting this rifles bigger brothers (Mod125/Mod135) which require 40-50lbs of cocking effort.
Hoping it doesn't leak again, but wouldn't bet money on it. Once o-ring seals are worn/deformed they usually get worse over time and replacement is the only solution.
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Since this appears to be your first springer just a reminder NOT to dry-fire it.
This IS the first springer I have ever opened up....
My first springer was a TS45 in about 1985. I have RWS 36, 48, 46, Beeman R1's ,R9, R11, even a CroMag I, Winchester 427,
Sterling HR81 and HR 83, BSA Super Star and Stutzen, and a bunch more that don't immediately come to mind.
Hoping it doesn't leak again, but wouldn't bet money on it. Once o-ring seals are worn/deformed they usually get worse over time and replacement is the only solution.
I have a Crosman NP2 and NP Elite rams on the way, so if the Hatsan ram loses steam again, I will be ready....
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Somewhere along the line, something isn't accurate.
I finally got chrony numbers on the Striker today.
Using CPHP .22cal 14.3gr ammo
I fired a shot thru it and got no reading...........
Hmmmmmmmmmmm
I tried again.
This time, the meter read 1.2M. I thought...1.2METERS??
So, when I pushed the readout button it read 1M mps.....
It dawned on me that 1.2Mwas 1200FPS........
This is not good........or, it is TOO good....the Striker is only rated for 800fps with lead pellets.
So, something is not accurate......either my chrony (cheap china E9800X type) or my pump gauge......
I ONLY took it to 100bar............or, so it read....
No wonder it is so hard to cock.
Maybe that crack is the pellet exceeding the speed of sound.......
So, now I have to hope that it bleeds down??
Or, stick the ram in the lathe, drill and tap a hole in the pocket in the rear plug and make a tool to open the valve, ala Benji bleed tool.
I'll give it a while...
Of course, I can install the Crosman NPs ram when it arrives.
At least now I know how to disassemble and reassemble the rifle.
Sometimes education can be painful.
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May need a 16- 18 gr pellet to calm it down , defiantly Hatsan 125 power if you crony is reading right, how many thicknesses of 3/4 " plywood will it go through ???
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Or, stick the ram in the lathe, drill and tap a hole in the pocket in the rear plug and make a tool to open the valve, ala Benji bleed tool.
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Sometimes education can be painful.
That WON'T WORK!
PLEASE READ THIS THREAD before you attempt to modify your Vortex.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=186696.msg156143583#msg156143583 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=186696.msg156143583#msg156143583)
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Thanks, Mr. MikeyB
Looks like I take a wait and see approach here.....
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May need a 16- 18 gr pellet to calm it down , defiantly Hatsan 125 power if you crony is reading right, how many thicknesses of 3/4 " plywood will it go through ???
It buries a 14.3gr CPHP well into the 3/4" oak plywood.
The pellet deforms quite a bit....
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Patience never has been my strong suit.
As I got tired of having the Striker disassembled on my bench while awaiting the delivery of the NP2 and NPE rams,
I started messing around with the NP ram I had on the shelf.
I turned a centering spacer out of aluminum and installed it.
I had very near the same amount of preload as the Hatsan ram, so I figured I was good.
And....I can cock it with 1 hand!!
Fitting and adjusting the WW HST trigger took a little fiddling, but that's to be expected.
End result, the Striker is shooting again. So far so good.
I only ran 1 pellet thru the chrony and it clocked at 650fps.
So, on to another project for a while........
As a ps.....the overfilled ram was putting a strain on parts of the rifle (other than the shooter...)
When I removed the ram retaining pin, that sucker was BENT...........not much, but......TOO much.........
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I usually get about 750 fps in my 22 Striker/Edge rifles using the CPHP. It seems like yours is shooting a little low at 650 fps. It may just be the NP1 in the Striker action or it could be there is now some piston seal damage from the over pressurized Vortex?
Regardless, glad you got it to work. Sounds like it was easy for you!
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I usually get about 750 fps in my 22 Striker/Edge rifles using the CPHP. It seems like yours is shooting a little low at 650 fps. It may just be the NP1 in the Striker action or it could be there is now some piston seal damage from the over pressurized Vortex?
Regardless, glad you got it to work. Sounds like it was easy for you!
The NP ram has been laying around for over 2 years now...maybe it is down a bit onoomph...
I have a new breech seal to install.....who knows??
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The Striler .22 is currently settling in at about 615fpm on my cheap chrony.
The breech seal is not in the best of shape, and I have some blue poly seals coming.
But I believe they come from "Down Under" so "it's going take some time this time......."
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Pull the breech seal, get some unwaxed dental floss, put a couple layers in the cutout for the seal, then reinstall the seal.
May or may not help some until you get the new breech seals but it can't hurt to try.
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Pull the breech seal, get some unwaxed dental floss, put a couple layers in the cutout for the seal, then reinstall the seal.
May or may not help some until you get the new breech seals but it can't hurt to try.
I'll give that a try..thanx...
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The bent pin and 2 handed difficult cocking means that Vortex was filled way over pressure. If your pressure gauge read only 100 bar then I suspect the gauge is bad. Maybe it filled to 200bar!?
Until you can find and fix the problem please be careful filling any pressure vessel. There is not a lot of volume/energy stored in a Vortex but it can still be very dangerous. If you are double-pressure filling anything larger it could become a lethal bomb.
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The bent pin and 2 handed difficult cocking means that Vortex was filled way over pressure. If your pressure gauge read only 100 bar then I suspect the gauge is bad. Maybe it filled to 200bar!?
Until you can find and fix the problem please be careful filling any pressure vessel. There is not a lot of volume/energy stored in a Vortex but it can still be very dangerous. If you are double-pressure filling anything larger it could become a lethal bomb.
Yessir. I suspect that the gauge is out of whack.....
I had not used the pump in some time as I use a SCUBA tank to fill my PCP's....But, I wanted to be more careful in filing the ram....HA !
The ram has been removed from the rifle, he pin straightened MOL, and a Crosman NP ram installed.
The Hatsan ram will stand in the rod-up configuration for as much time as it takes to bleed back down again.
Interestingly enough, that occurred over a week's time to the former owner, GTA member 2DARK2C.
The rifle shot fine one day, then was DOA a week later.......
Well, not totally dead...it still had a tad of pressure in it, but I could depress the plunger all the way in when pressed against a table.
I am not being quite that lucky so far.....
I am hoping that it will bleed down as I could really use that ram to do trigger tests without having to worry about firing pellets or the action snapping back on me...
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Just bumping so I can find it when needed for installing a new ram in an Edge soon...