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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Mr.P on January 25, 2022, 11:44:24 PM
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Well I couldn’t resist and after watching a bunch of “reviews” of this gun on YouTube (which seemed more like sponsored advertisements than objective reviews) I pulled the trigger and ordered the gun. Sometimes those “look how cool this f%^*ing gun is” videos are fun to watch though!
I was told that we were having good results with 120 grain slugs, specifically those from NSA. Someone whose opinion I trust said that really 80 grains is a better weight to aim for.
I’m wondering if anyone here has any experience or perspective on this and might be able to help me pick a mold try at will cast bullets this gun has a chance of shooting well.
I have browsed the options through arsenal, mp molds, noe molds and accurate molds so I have a general sense of what my options are, but am not sure which shape and weight to choose. I see more options in 125-135 grain, but there are also a few in the 80/90/100 grain range albeit with some odd shapes for a few of them that do not look aerodynamic at all…
Any help tracking down a good mold for this gun would be greatly appreciated.
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guessing you asking of the .357 cal. given the weight of the slugs you're thinking of.
be very careful with the factory mags. they don't like cold and will shatter on you. I have a customer that just requested me to make mags for the .357 that are better and stronger than factory units. I have the main bit done. just need to pin the covers and install the torsion springs and send them back to him for testing, but mine matches the factory mags in every dimension, so they should be good to go.
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I am betting .30. Those weights are too light for a 35 bore.
Regards,
Roachcreek
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.357 for sure.
Molds from accurate and arsenal start at 80 grains and go up from there.
Much of the testing I have seen has been with 81 grain JSB pellets.
Assuming a maximum power of 175 fpe or so, my question is, what is a good target weight for a slug? had to be under 0.59” in length.
Obviously one side of me wants to get a heavier projectile just to extract more power. Another side of me would like to have something lighter for a better trajectory.
When that gun gets here I’ll do some testing with some manufactured projectiles and get a mold close to the one that feels the best.
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Get a mold that has multiple cavity types from Accurate. The downside is you have to go elsewhere for modifications if you want hollow points. You could also cast in a lead/tin alloy, or even pure tin, if you need a lighter slug.
.59" length is definitely a limiting factor on mold choices for hollow points as well. Are you opposed to singe loading some of your shots? My AEA .45 big bore likes NSA slugs even though the ones I have are heavier than my cast slugs. Eventually I want to get a mold that has long flat sides like the NSA swaged slugs, that seems to be the ticket to making the most power possible. Testing .25 cal NSA slugs with equivalent weight cast slugs with several lube grooves was closer than my test of NOE BBT .45 cast slugs (basically one fat driving band) vs NSA swaged slugs, so I feel confident in saying more surface area touching the bore is better for making peak power.
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.357 for sure.
Molds from accurate and arsenal start at 80 grains and go up from there.
Much of the testing I have seen has been with 81 grain JSB pellets.
Assuming a maximum power of 175 fpe or so, my question is, what is a good target weight for a slug? had to be under 0.59” in length.
Obviously one side of me wants to get a heavier projectile just to extract more power. Another side of me would like to have something lighter for a better trajectory.
When that gun gets here I’ll do some testing with some manufactured projectiles and get a mold close to the one that feels the best.
Where did you see that gun @ 175 FPE ? all the reviews I've seen so far put her in the 120-140 FPE range,......at that power the good old EPP/UG in my opinion is a wonderful bullet,.....Accurate Molds sells them, they are in the .36 page.
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This is the mold I'm getting for my line up of .357s
.......this bullet has everything I like, Boattail, 2 narrow riding bands and a good Meplat
https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-124A (https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-124A)
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Personally, I strive to not shoot pellets, I am a bullet caster.
I also cast for power and that is why 122 grains to 170 grains is my weight spectrum for 357. It is also why folded bullets that are pellet weight have no interest for me, I have shot less that 5 pellets through my Bulldog, mostly I give them to friends for conservation pieces. My Kratos, Texan LSS and Bighorn are all bullet shooters.
Home made air and homemade bullets, but that is just me.
RC
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Personally, I strive to not shoot pellets, I am a bullet caster.
I also cast for power and that is why 122 grains to 170 grains is my weight spectrum for 357. It is also why folded bullets that are pellet weight have no interest for me, I have shot less that 5 pellets through my Bulldog, mostly I give them to friends for conservation pieces. My Kratos, Texan LSS and Bighorn are all bullet shooters.
Home made air and homemade bullets, but that is just me.
RC
Yep. That's the reason I got into the airgun game. Much easier to be self sufficient.
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Amen.
Roachcreek
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I would also look at the NOE .357 pellet mold, it drops at 80-ish grain with the tallest pin, so it can get a bit heavier with the short pins. Game animals can't tell the difference between a pellet and a slug.
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When I had the Bulldog in for field testing ( stock gun 150 FPE ) it really loved the 80 some grain EPP/UG
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This is the mold I'm getting for my line up of .357s
.......this bullet has everything I like, Boattail, 2 narrow riding bands and a good Meplat
https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-124A (https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-124A)
I have been eyeing that bullet in particular as well, funny you should mention it. Had made all the selections and was ready to buy, but then found an MP mold that looks pretty good and is in stock and at a good price. 96 grains, so that seems like a sweet spot. I also purchased a .357 sizing bushing since this mold is .358
https://www.mp-molds.com/product/358-640-plain-base-solid-4-cavity-mold/ (https://www.mp-molds.com/product/358-640-plain-base-solid-4-cavity-mold/)
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This is the mold I'm getting for my line up of .357s
.......this bullet has everything I like, Boattail, 2 narrow riding bands and a good Meplat
https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-124A (https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-124A)
I have been eyeing that bullet in particular as well, funny you should mention it. Had made all the selections and was ready to buy, but then found an MP mold that looks pretty good and is in stock and at a good price. 96 grains, so that seems like a sweet spot. I also purchased a .357 sizing bushing since this mold is .358
https://www.mp-molds.com/product/358-640-plain-base-solid-4-cavity-mold/ (https://www.mp-molds.com/product/358-640-plain-base-solid-4-cavity-mold/)
Every single .357 I've shot likes the .358 better,......I just ordered a .358 Lee sizer from Amazon to size the million of bullets I bought :)
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.357 for sure.
Molds from accurate and arsenal start at 80 grains and go up from there.
Much of the testing I have seen has been with 81 grain JSB pellets.
Assuming a maximum power of 175 fpe or so, my question is, what is a good target weight for a slug? had to be under 0.59” in length.
Obviously one side of me wants to get a heavier projectile just to extract more power. Another side of me would like to have something lighter for a better trajectory.
When that gun gets here I’ll do some testing with some manufactured projectiles and get a mold close to the one that feels the best.
Where did you see that gun @ 175 FPE ? all the reviews I've seen so far put her in the 120-140 FPE range,......at that power the good old EPP/UG in my opinion is a wonderful bullet,.....Accurate Molds sells them, they are in the .36 page.
I was watching a video posted by Bin Tac they were just shooting random slugs through the gun when the first got it I guess. 177 fpe with a 120 grain NSA slug - that was the peak in the string, but a couple of shots were 166 and 160 as well.
Bin Tac said the 130 fpe figure is just for 81 grain pellets.
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Personally, I strive to not shoot pellets, I am a bullet caster.
I also cast for power and that is why 122 grains to 170 grains is my weight spectrum for 357. It is also why folded bullets that are pellet weight have no interest for me, I have shot less that 5 pellets through my Bulldog, mostly I give them to friends for conservation pieces. My Kratos, Texan LSS and Bighorn are all bullet shooters.
Home made air and homemade bullets, but that is just me.
RC
Yep. That's the reason I got into the airgun game. Much easier to be self sufficient.
If I could not cast and had to constantly restock projectiles this hobby would not appeal to me honestly. So I have to agree with you 100% as well.
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This is the mold I'm getting for my line up of .357s
.......this bullet has everything I like, Boattail, 2 narrow riding bands and a good Meplat
https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-124A (https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-124A)
I have been eyeing that bullet in particular as well, funny you should mention it. Had made all the selections and was ready to buy, but then found an MP mold that looks pretty good and is in stock and at a good price. 96 grains, so that seems like a sweet spot. I also purchased a .357 sizing bushing since this mold is .358
https://www.mp-molds.com/product/358-640-plain-base-solid-4-cavity-mold/ (https://www.mp-molds.com/product/358-640-plain-base-solid-4-cavity-mold/)
Every single .357 I've shot likes the .358 better,......I just ordered a .358 Lee sizer from Amazon to size the million of bullets I bought :)
Glad I ordered a .358 then… I have the option to size down.
Here is a video of the hp max disassembled. This video in part inspired me to get this gun because it looks like a really nice simple basic construction without all kinds of fiddly bits. It should be very easy to work on I think. Reminds me a little bit of the Air Force guns in that there’s just not a lot of parts in there.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig_b_DlCupc (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig_b_DlCupc)
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That is quite a jump just buy changing ammo,
That would mean that the gun shoots 850 fps with the 81gr pellet
and then 810 fps with the 120gr bullet,......I don't know but it just doesn't look right to me, maybe tho since the barrel is so short and maybe doesn't get the most out the pellet.
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I hear you. I found the video I will post it, obviously I don’t know how they got that, but that is what the chronograph shows. I saw one video of a person shooting 81 grains at 900 fps by adding a few washers behind the hammer spring. Maybe they had some washers in there or a bigger spring / hammer.
Cant wait to get my hands on one and do some testing so I can stop just repeating what I see on YouTube videos
900 fps / 145 fpe with 81 grain:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ATnLzb5UUn0
177 fpe with 152 grain here:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wpgC_WI1s-o
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Yeah I can't wait for you to get it and hear what you think, this gun really interests me.
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I hear you. I found the video I will post it, obviously I don’t know how they got that, but that is what the chronograph shows. I saw one video of a person shooting 81 grains at 900 fps by adding a few washers behind the hammer spring. Maybe they had some washers in there or a bigger spring / hammer.
Cant wait to get my hands on one and do some testing so I can stop just repeating what I see on YouTube videos
900 fps / 145 fpe with 81 grain:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ATnLzb5UUn0
177 fpe with 152 grain here:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wpgC_WI1s-o
In the 68 Whiskey video they installed washer behind the hammer spring to increase preload. That increases the velocity to 900fps on the first shot.
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That is quite a jump just buy changing ammo,
That would mean that the gun shoots 850 fps with the 81gr pellet
and then 810 fps with the 120gr bullet,......I don't know but it just doesn't look right to me, maybe tho since the barrel is so short and maybe doesn't get the most out the pellet.
The huge bearing surface on the NSA slugs, among some others, has the practical effect of "lengthening the barrel" when you fire. This is just my hypothesis, but it seems like the bore is still sealed even as the slug is exiting the barrel. I have had similar results with slugs from another member from his HP molds RF BBT mold with a ton of lube grooves. The power was not quite as high as the NSA slugs, but very close, within a few FPE.
My AEA challenger shoots cast NOE 240 grain FN BBT slugs with one driving band the same speed as a 305 grain NSA slug with close to .5" of bearing surface. The NSA slug is also almost twice as long in total length. This is with the same lube on the projectiles as well.
I tried to tell you about this in regards to air bolts, etc, but you said the effect was minimal when the valve arrangement is not in line with the barrel. I would call 50 FPE in my Challenger and 30+ FPE on those HP Max .357 significant.
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I just realized the MAX .357 is a 4500 gun, that takes away from my group of gun I'm interested now.
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I hear you. That is the one fly in the ointment, isn’t it?
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Most of the AEA guns don't have the right valve setup for making power at 4,500 PSI. Most are set up for 3,600 psi and less. All of the pressure vessels are rated at 4,500 psi/300b
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Most of the AEA guns don't have the right valve setup for making power at 4,500 PSI. Most are set up for 3,600 psi and less. All of the pressure vessels are rated at 4,500 psi/300b
On the video that is how it got the High FPE, at 250 BAR it was getting 150 FPE and the bullet was traveling at sub 700 fps,
sometimes the FPE achieved with high weight projectiles but low speed it's a bit of a tricky thing, nominally sounds good but can be detrimental.
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I rather have a 80gr EPP/UG traveling at 850 fpe for 128 FPE
then a 152 gr bullet traveling at 670 fps for 152 FPE.
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All depends on what you’re using it for I suppose but for anything far away a flatter trajectory is always preferable. I am a consummate plinker. No hunting, no bench rest, just casual target shooting and destruction of everyday objects, so i can live with either one.
My interest was in a high powered compact
gun that is easy to disassemble and repair that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg, and has the power to hit 800-900 fps with whatever I am shooting, so this will be just right for me. Been waiting for something like this for a while now…
What does “EPP/UG” mean?
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All depends on what you’re using it for I suppose but for anything far away a flatter trajectory is always preferable. I am a consummate plinker. No hunting, no bench rest, just casual target shooting and destruction of everyday objects, so i can live with either one.
My interest was in a high powered compact
gun that is easy to disassemble and repair that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg, and has the power to hit 800-900 fps with whatever I am shooting, so this will be just right for me. Been waiting for something like this for a while now…
What does “EPP/UG” mean?
EPP/UG is that bullet that Bin was shooting after the 152gr ....those 4 bullets he shot.
El Paso Pete,.......he made that bullet to match roundballs in shooting attributes,
if you only plinking I would highly suggest you also get a Bottle of 360 rounballs from "Ballistic products" and 8 pounds bottle is in the 40 bucks range.
That is what we used to shoot out of our .357s back when there was not really any other ammo available,.....they can be very accurate and at 70gr they fly at a decent speed.
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actually I was on their website and now they have a 22 pound bag for 70 bucks,
at 70gr a round I wander how many balls you get in a 22 # bag ?
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/BAM-5-Antimony-000-Buck-91mm-22/productinfo/UB000/ (https://www.ballisticproducts.com/BAM-5-Antimony-000-Buck-91mm-22/productinfo/UB000/)
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I appreciate the tip. I’m not sure how loading works as far as single shot shooting goes but i assume those round balls will not work in the magazine.
This is my first hands on with an airgun with a magazine so I have a few things to check out and understand here.
You are pretty sure that loading round balls will be simple in this case?
I’m not going to be buying anything other than a few backup rounds for this gun - I will be casting my own for sure.
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I think those roundballs should work fine in the magazine. I use those exact same .36 roundballs in the rotary magazine of my evanix sniper
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Yes roundballs load just fine in magazines.
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Well that’s some good news! Do round balls come out with reduced energy because of the small amount of bearing contact? It’s basically the equivalent of a single thin drive band if I understand it right. I would love to get my hands on a few of these just to compare to other projectiles.
“ We've spared no expense by adding 5% antimony. This stuff is as hard as lead buckshot gets.”
Is hardness not a problem?
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With a Longer bullet that hardness might be an issue, but with the roundballs the smaller contact surface seems to allow it to work fine.
There is reduced fpe, but it's due to the lower weight of the projectile, not the bearing surface. These are .36 in a .357 barrel, so it seals just fine.
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Well, honestly 120 vs. 170 fpe is no biggie when you are trying to slice the edge of a steel can or punch a hole in an empty Coleman canister. So it may be I get a bag of those as my backup and then do my best to keep up with my shooting by casting. In fact, I am placing an order now…
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https://www.ballisticproducts.com/mobile/Super-Buck-Lead-000-8-lb_jar-360/productinfo/SBK30/ (https://www.ballisticproducts.com/mobile/Super-Buck-Lead-000-8-lb_jar-360/productinfo/SBK30/)
This is a different alloy I’m guessing? Trying to spend less than $69…
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https://www.ballisticproducts.com/mobile/Super-Buck-Lead-000-8-lb_jar-360/productinfo/SBK30/ (https://www.ballisticproducts.com/mobile/Super-Buck-Lead-000-8-lb_jar-360/productinfo/SBK30/)
This is a different alloy I’m guessing? Trying to spend less than $69…
Yup, that is the bottle I used to buy.
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Well it’s on its way. Along with a mold from MP and sizing bushings from NOE. What else do I need? Some kind of simple optics. Would rather have this as a red dot or open sights (which I could rig with my 3d printer and some irons sights I already have).
Have to wait until Tuesday for the airgun. Mold, bushings, lead shot, gun each via a different shipping service. it will be a fun week…