GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Artemis/SPA Airguns => Topic started by: JimD on October 16, 2021, 02:56:28 PM
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I've wanted a bullpup for some time. I am right handed but left eye dominant. So I shoot from the left. Many air rifles stick their magazine out on the left making it very hard for me to see through the scope. Or they have the cocking lever way at the back which would be against my face. Not what I want. I'd seen reviews of the Artemis P15 but it has the cocking lever in the back but the magazine does not appear to be a problem. Has a wood stock but doesn't seem real attractive. The P35 is the newer model with the cocking lever in the middle and a synthetic stock. I use my right hand to cock on my Avenger so that won't be new to me or an issue. It is not as high powered as my Avenger but is regulated, light, and short. About 5 lbs and 26 inches long. Rated for about 35 ft lbs in 25 (what I ordered). I just ordered it from Krale. They are supposed to have the 25 caliber in stock. We'll see how long it takes to get here.
I want another magazine or two but couldn't find them on their web page. Anybody know if P15 magazines fit?
I will be watching for UPS deliveries now, anxiously.
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I've wanted a bullpup for some time. I am right handed but left eye dominant. So I shoot from the left. Many air rifles stick their magazine out on the left making it very hard for me to see through the scope. Or they have the cocking lever way at the back which would be against my face. Not what I want. I'd seen reviews of the Artemis P15 but it has the cocking lever in the back but the magazine does not appear to be a problem. Has a wood stock but doesn't seem real attractive. The P35 is the newer model with the cocking lever in the middle and a synthetic stock. I use my right hand to cock on my Avenger so that won't be new to me or an issue. It is not as high powered as my Avenger but is regulated, light, and short. About 5 lbs and 26 inches long. Rated for about 35 ft lbs in 25 (what I ordered). I just ordered it from Krale. They are supposed to have the 25 caliber in stock. We'll see how long it takes to get here.
I want another magazine or two but couldn't find them on their web page. Anybody know if P15 magazines fit?
I will be watching for UPS deliveries now, anxiously.
Jim, congratulations! I saw a couple of videos on those, great lite, compact bullpups! I’ve heard Krale ships very quickly. I hope you do a little review of it when you have time.
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Krale shipped my P35 today and UPS is forecasting Wednesday delivery. Pretty good from the Netherlands.
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Yeah, I’ve heard Krale ships overseas quicker than most local parcel services here in the states! How cool is that!?
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Krale shipped my P35 today and UPS is forecasting Wednesday delivery. Pretty good from the Netherlands.
They do it with some sort of magic.... I cant even get a gun shipped across the USA in a week. And if I do its beat to heck or broken.
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Congrats on the new gun! I'm thinking of buying one and have it narrowed down to the P35 and a semi-auto, by another mfg. I have an older P12 KAM (SPA, ARTEMIS, SNOWPEAK). It's a tack driver, but unfortunately a single shot and no magazine. Look forward to a review when you get it.
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Krale shipped my P35 today and UPS is forecasting Wednesday delivery. Pretty good from the Netherlands.
They do it with some sort of magic.... I cant even get a gun shipped across the USA in a week. And if I do its beat to heck or broken.
LOL Travis! True true! Maybe it’s Disney Magic, pixie dust…LOL!
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I have nothing good to say about US Customs lately... I hope your new rifle arrives in good shape and in a timely fashion with all the parts in the box.
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Yesterday afternoon UPS changed the forecasted delivery to Thursday, not today. My P35 was in Germany at the time. Now they show it in Philadelphia, hopefully through customers. I'll have to keep checking. I think I have the other bits and pieces on the way too except for a new butt pad. I'm sure the LOP will be too short but I want to get and measure it before ordering that. I think I have a source that will 3D print up what I need. But I will start shooting it once it gets here and fix the LOP when I can. Not sure if I will want high or medium rings but I will have both by sometime Friday.
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Wow. The pet looks to be a great deal on a nice gun. Light with fwd side cocking. Under 500$. Cant wait to hear how well it shoots.
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This morning they say it is in town and out for delivery. So today should be the day! Probably too late to shoot it but I can at least see how the trigger pull is, possibly adjust that, and fill it and see if it holds air. I will also need to mount the scope I have for it so there will be things to do, even if it arrives about the time it gets dark here.
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I got it about an hour ago! The external box was pretty beat up but the box around the gun was in good shape and the gun seems to be fine. A little extra oil on the outside but appearance is good. I aired it up, it came completely empty, and will see if the pressure holds overnight. I also shot two shots, using a couple of the 150 pellets it came with. I did not have a scope on it, I was trying to see how loud it is. At the gun I measured 100 db with the main noise a kind of metallic ping. At 15 feet I measured 85db. I am happy it is as quiet as my little Prod. It has metal baffles in the shroud. That is probably the source of the metallic sound but also probably contributes to the relatively low report at 15 feet. I'll include a couple pictures, one of the gun and one of all three of my PCPs. The P35 is almost exactly the same length as my Prod (actually it's an inch shorter but only because I need to extend the length of pull an inch, I have long arms). I have not measured velocity but it's rated to be less powerful than the tune on my Avenger but it is quieter and not much more than half it's length.
Trigger is not bad but a little creepier and heavier than I prefer. The manual that comes with the gun is for all Artemis guns and doesn't have any information about adjusting the P35 trigger. I don't see that as a big deal. I'll pull the stock and look at it, probably tomorrow. Cleaning the barrel will be next tonight and possibly mounting a scope. Not sure if I want medium or high rings.
The one magazine that came with it fits flush or a little below the "comb" piece. So it does not poke me in the face like the Impact magazine does. The cocking handle works easily with my right hand. So the key reasons I bought it check out. Seems like a good option for those of us who shoot from the left shoulder. It is light (a little over 5 lbs) and short (about 27 inches) and also pretty quiet. I'm happy so far.
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Congratulations on the new SPA P35.
I looked at that too in the Kraale store.
I only have rifles and wanted to try a bullpup.
But I am only target shooting from a stationary position and a bullpup (although cool looking) would be useless in my case.
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Jim, CONGRATULATIONS! It is COMPACT! I know you’ll enjoy shooting it. Have fun! Sure arrived QUICKLY, like poof it’s here! LOL!
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Still busy testing. I added a 15/16 wood spacer to the stock to lengthen the length of pull. I like the comb position with "high" rings but I like it unusually high. Others might want extra high rings. The rod that allows the cocking lever to move to the middle of the gun is up on top of the barrel so the cover over it at the rear (i.e. the comb piece) is thus pretty high. I'm still testing all the 25 caliber pellets I have on hand. I have 3 slugs I will test too. Nothing outstanding or really bad in accuracy so far. JSB 25.39 and the Snowpeak 25.93 grain gave me 3/8s groups at 25 yards but I could not "back it up". I view all the accuracy information as just preliminary. Obviously a very new barrel. I got some JSB bore paste a few minutes ago and intend to try to fire polish the bore with it. Velocity is ranging from 850 (FTT 20 grain) to low 700s (JSB 33.95). Energy is mostly in the 30-40 fpe range. I got 54 shots on the first fill to 190bar, about 2800 psi. It is rated for a 250 bar fill so it might get over 70 shots when fully filled up with this tune. I also measured db at 15 feet 8 more times. Lowest was 84.9, highest was 88.2.
I am pleasantly surprised with the shot count and the relative lack of noise unmoderated. I hope accuracy improves but I have not touched the hammer spring adjustment and on my Avenger that made a big accuracy difference. Fire polishing - or just breaking it in - should also help. I also have two more types of pellets to try as well as 3 slugs.
I got the creep out of the second stage of the trigger but it is still kind of high pressure - haven't measured it. That may be affecting accuracy too. No obvious way to change this but changing a spring on the sear that is exposed may be what it takes.
I've heard that the regulator can be adjusted too but it means degassing and removing the pressure guage. A tool to remove it came with the gun. But so far I am inclined to leave it alone and just try and tune up the accuracy. 30-40 fpe is plenty for small game at reasonable distances and more than enough for paper punching. Over 50-70 shots on a fill and under 85-88 db is really nice for backyard shooting.
If I was to criticize something I would say the magazine is not great and the safety isn't either. I've had to jiggle the magazine a few times to get a pellet to feed. CARM offers magazines but not in a flush fit 25, hopefully yet. The safety is a trigger block in back of the trigger and kind of stiff. It may loosen up a little. No biggies - assuming I can get better magazines before too long.
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Finished testing all the 25 pellets I had on hand and also the 3 slugs and JB fire polished the bore. Pellets were still unimpressive in accuracy but surprisingly two of the slugs were better. H&N Slug HPs gave me two 5/8 groups. Still needs to be better but no other projectile shot this well. JSB Knockouts also shot pretty well. H&N Grizzlys were about like the pellets which is a lot better than my Avenger did with them. The Avenger did not shoot these slugs nearly this well. But the velocity is only about 700 fps.
I fire polished by using a tooth pick to put a dab of JB bore polish in the end of the barrel, then loading a pellet, then shooting. I did two JB pellets then alternated a JB pellet then one without the paste, then another JB. I did a total of 7 JB pellets then finished out the magazine and cleaned and waxed the barrel. I only shot two pellets after the polishing, Benjamin 27.8 grain and Snow Peak 25.93 grain. The velocity of the Benjamins went up over 6% over 60 fps! Accuracy also improved (but it had a lot of room for improvement). Best group was 7/16 - before the polish they were over an inch. The Snow Peak pellets only went up a little over 4% but I think I ran off the regulator and it may actually have gone up more. Snow Peak accuracy didn't seem to change. These pellets look pretty rough, however. I could probably get smaller groups by carefully sorting them but I doubt that will happen.
It's about time to start messing with the hammer spring and see if I can get to the 1/4 inch or so groups I want. I also need to stain the length of pull spacer black to match the stock (hate to do that to cherry but I think it will look better) and put in the Hawke 25 moa scope ring spacers. The fire polishing results make me want to see what it would do to my Prod. It could use a little more velocity. My Avenger is already pushing 25.4s at 930 so it doesn't really need more.
This afternoon I got 78 shots on a 3500 fill. I think the last 3-5 were off the reg but I still think this is great for a little compact 25 caliber PCP. It is now up to about 35 fpe on the lighter pellets, presumably well over 40 with the heavy ones.
But they still need to go exactly where I aim. Still need to work on that.
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Great news and glad to hear your SPA airgun turned out so well. I'm surprised the Grizzlies shot so well- and this is good to hear as I dig H&N pellets.
Yeah, there's a reason I have 3 SPA PCPs...
And soon a 4th. Sonja and I were perusing Krale (I've ordered from them before) and identified the M25 as our next PCP. We're getting either a .30 or .35; likely the big-bore. If it is anything like any of the other SPA rifles, it has capacity for some serious power tuning. Thinking 150+ FPE which means this would be a good coyote gun- something we'll have to consider once we move to Buckingham County (2 hours west of us here in VA).
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I messed with the trigger some more today and tested 4 of the same projectiles I tested yesterday. I'll talk more about the trigger last.
I started with FX 25.4 grain pellets and turned the hammer spring up 1/4 turn and down 1/4 and then 1/2 turn. The only change which helped - and it wasn't a lot - was 1/4 turn down. I got a much bigger benefit in my Avenger but it is what it is.
All the 4 projectiles I shot today grouped better than yesterday. JB fire lapping was probably part of it and fine tuning the hammer spring probably was too. Yesterday I just shot two four shot groups (1 magazine) of a lot of projectiles. Today I shot at least 4, 3 shot groups with the 4 projectiles. I got 7 groups of 1/4 inch or less today, none yesterday. The best projectile so far is 34 grain H&N Slug HPs. I shot 8 groups with them today and two yesterday. The worst groups were four 5/8 groups (two yesterday and two today). Smallest was 3/16 and there was also a 1/4 and a 5/16. I got at least one 1/4 inch group with the other three projectiles I tested today. I'd like the Benjamin pellets to shoot better since they are relatively inexpensive. But they were the worst. But yesterday the two groups with this pellet were over an inch and today the biggest was 13/16. Smallest was 3/16.
I don't think velocity is actually increased as I believed yesterday. I only measured 9 shots with the FX pellets because my chrony needed charged but the velocity was, if anything, slightly lower than before the lapping. Maybe velocity increased because of the wax. The first pellets went up more than the second pellets I shot which would seem consistent with that.
I started trying to reduce the length of the first stage of the trigger. I could do it but if I did I couldn't put the safety on. So I had to go back to pretty much the stock setting. The first stage is very light so keeping it is not a big deal. The biggest problem I had was with the tiny C-clip holding the tiny clevis pin that links the trigger to the sear mechanism. I think the shaft of the clevis pin is just under 2mm. Thickness of the C-clip is about half a mm. I got it out but when I was trying to put it back it flew off somewhere. I wired it in place for now and ordered some cotter pins for a more permanent replacement. They will be a lot easier to put on and off. The other issue I had during this episode was with the O-ring inside the barrel for the pellet pushing pin to slide through to seal the barrel. I was trying to gently release the trigger (i.e. not dry fire) but didn't have the cocking lever far enough back and it dry fired with the bolt partially open which dislodged the O-ring. Then I damaged the O-ring trying to put it back. Fortunately the gun came with a spare and I managed to put it in without tearing it up. I ordered some more from McMaster Carr. During all this I took off the sear mechanism and put a little silicone grease on it. That seems to have helped the weight of the trigger. The finish on the parts was good so I did not polish them. These parts were nice heavy steel castings. In general the parts I've examined on this gun have been more impressive than my Avenger. A lot more metal and a lot less plastic. The net of the trigger is it has to be two stage for your to have a functioning safety. I got it to a pretty crisp second stage with an easy adjustment to sear engagement but getting the weight down further would mean making sear engagement less than I think is safe. But it's a good trigger, just not as light as my other air rifles. More like my powder burners.
I'd like more consistently small groups but I'm pretty convinced they will happen as I shoot it more. My other two PCPs definitely shot better as they got broken in. I got about 68 shots on a 3500 fill today - really pleased with that.
Not sure about projectiles longer term. I may order some from Nielsen. I'd like to try some lighter ones. From a cost standpoint I'd like a pellet or two to shoot a bit better. Maybe they will.
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Looks like they are a very nice PCP! Nice work on the barrel and trigger, the groups like you said will tighten up with more lead through it! Enjoy!
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Have you pushed a pellet through the bore to check for tight spots ? Also what does the crown on this gun look like ? I’ve seen more than my fair share of poor crown jobs that caused poor accuracy and a lot of fliers. The baffles in you shroud might also cause poor accuracy.
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Denis,
I have not pulled the barrel (to push a pellet through) or the shroud (to look at the crown and closer examine the baffles). I think the accuracy is showing strong signs of improving but if I continue to want better, I may inspect and possibly re-crown it. But I will probably get around 1000 pellets/slugs through it first. My other chinese gun, an Avenger, is not crowned but shoots very well.
I am curious how much benefit I get in sound reduction from the baffles so I might pull them out and make a few measurements. I played around a little with moderators and I couldn't see any benefits except form a greater volume in the moderator. But this is just a shroud and the gun is pretty darn quiet, especially for something delivering 30-40 fpe. The shroud is vented at the rear (I feel the air come out when shooting from the bench if my hand is up there) and I tested that without baffles and didn't see any improvement. But something is working pretty well. I could also try just blocking the holes with tape. But I inadvertantly got my hand over the holes and I think the POI jumped significantly - it seemed to affect the harmonics. Testing that theory would be interesting, however.
I plan to test some more of the previously tested pellets to see if the velocity is the same as before the fire polish and if the accuracy is better across the board or if something now will stand out (other than possibly the H&N slugs).
I find if fun to try and improve my guns.
Jim
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Which baffles did SPA use in the P35? If they used the same stamped aluminum funnel type as they used in the P15, there is significant room for improvement by going to an arrangement such as the felt/hair curler/fender washer combinations.
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Mike,
I saw the youtube by Aaron where he claimed an improvement but unless I misunderstood the numbers he put on screen did not match the statement - looked like the hair curler + felt was actually louder. I need to rewatch. Aaron seems to be bugged by the ping. I found it unusual at first but it doesn't bug me.
Everybody,
I shot 4 three shot groups with three more pellets today and I think I have a winner, at least for now. H&N FTT are light (20.06) but gave me the best groups. One was only 1/8, then 5/16 and two 3/4 inch groups (all 25 yards). I am still hoping the bigger ones shrink a little but I ordered another couple tins of these pellets. I could only find them at Amazon and I don't think they will pack them well but I need something to shoot. Hopefully a "real" pellet supplier will get some - and some of the slug HPs. I cannot find them at all right now. I'd like to try some in lighter weights. I also shot King Heavies, 11/16, 11/16, 5/8 inch and 1 inch (but last shot was off reg). And also barracudas, 1/2, 9/16, 1/2, and 1 inch. I find it interesting that H&N pellets and slugs seem to shoot a bit better in this gun. My Avenger has a strong preference for JSB. I also played a bit with chairgun to see which projectile would give me the longest range the way I like to sight in. I keep the rise in the middle to 1/4 inch so I can ignore distance from around 10 or 15 yards out to a little past the sight in range. FTTs were the best with a 39 yard zero, the 25.39 JSBs, 33.95 JSBs, and slug HPs were all 32-33 yards. FTTs also had the least drop at 100 yards. I used the average velocity I got for each projectile with a BC from either the manufacturer or hard air magazine. Last test was penetration in MDF. I have a little test rig I shoot with 1/4 inch layers of MDF separated by 1/4 inch spacers. I just count how many sheets the pellet goes through. FTTs, King Heavies, and slug hps all went through 2 but not 3 pieces - 1/2 inch MDF penetration. I was a bit surprised the slugs did as well as the pellets. I think I'll see something different in wet paper. I test this penetration to get an idea of ability to brain shoot a bigger animal. Results were not surprising, they are about like what I got with my Avenger before I increased it's regulator setting and velocity.
The velocity did not go up with the polish but the velocity spread and standard deviation both improved. With my two favorite projectiles, the slug HP and the FTT, I got 12.47/4.48 and 15.75/2.93 respectively. Actually that slug HP data is from the before polish, my chrony wasn't working when I shot the after. The FTT before polish was about a 36 spread and 13 std deviation - if I throw out one low shot it improves to 24/10 but it was still better after the polish. The before polish data is 8 shots and the after is 11 (forgot to turn on the chrony for the first shot). I think the JB polish helped the accuracy and velocity deviation on all the pellets where I have before and after data.
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Well somebody with experience with this platform needs to chime in and risk the snarling teeth of the Chinese budget gun crowd, most of which have other snow peak platforms, it might as well be me.
They are very light and handy packages, but fraught with QC problems. Mine was a Diana Skyhawk made by the same company, rebranded by Diana.
The p-15/Skyhawk was notorious for iffy barrels. It was called the barrel lottery. Same basic gun, same company, same snow peak poor quality control and no after market service. I was forewarned by member here, but was star struck because of the Skyhawks lovely stock, but the infatuation quickly went south when I received the Skyhawk.
Having said that your not doing too bad with that barrel. Mine had a tight spot in front of the lead, which was a barrel death sentence. I had JSAR replace my lousy Snowpeak barrel with a great shooting 22 caliber POLY LW, many others in 25 have sourced old Mrod 25 green mountain barrels for replacement. Be careful tightening the barrel retention screws in the scope base as the barrels are quite thin and especially with the 25, you can dimple them and make a tight spot inside the barrel. I am not sure if yours is prone to this as the forward cocking handle may have forced the manufacturer to change this retention system.
Doing a hair curler mod may help accuracy as stacking those baffles which on mine had poor shoulders for stacking, this can be be problematic to accuracy. Also the shroud end caps on mine and many others were consistently threaded crooked, on both ends so a Donnyfl adapter did not work, and caused very bad clipping, however Donny sells a endcap for his Koi that allows it to thread directly to the barrel and many P-15 owners do this.
Being a lefty, I do like that forward cocking handle, I see that there is a $150.00 conversion for that that is a 3D printed non Snowpeak item.
You can remove the 4 screws holding the entire trigger assembly, rotate it to screw the linkage closer together and improve the trigger, but beware at a certain point your left with a dangerously light trigger and non working safety.
The magazines are &^^&, but the Carm Magazines are pretty good, just hold less pellets.
If your handy at airgun smithing you can make yours work, mine was a box of parts for months, the threads on the air tube were eventually galling and binding together, which they are known to do, until a very skilled p-15 smith got mine working again.
I still shoot mine a lot at 460 FPS with 25.39 grain 22’s, but I don’t trust it. By all means don’t dump a bunch of money in it. I will never buy another Diana after they had zero after market care, same with Snowpeak and Chinese guns in general with one exception.
I have sworn off Chinese guns, the AEA guns are very interesting, if they go to a sidelever while I am still above ground, I may relent and buy another Chinese gun.
Regards and I hope it works for you.
Roachcreek
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Thanks for the detailed review. Sounds like it's going to be a shooter! Enjoy
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Roachcreek,
I'm sorry you got a bad air rifle. I'm glad I do not appear to have. I hope you get it working more to your satisfaction.
I volunteered today at my church, my standard Monday schedule, so I did not shoot but I did take the shroud apart when I got home out of curiosity. I rewatched Aaron's shroud change video this morning waiting for the sun to come up so I could walk my dog. He did not really show a benefit of his changes at least not with test data. His initial db reading is lower but it is for a larger capacity shroud, not the stock one. His point is that his modified version is kind of close. His is a 177 and mine is a 25. Mine is noisier than his modified 177 but I think that is apples and oranges.
The other thing that I discovered is the end of the barrel threads into the shroud right before the baffles start. I think they are stamped aluminum, there are 8. One of mine was a little deformed so I straightened it. But with the forward end of the barrel threading into the shroud I think modifying the shroud so that it has more volume ahead of the barrel is a bit risky because you loose the attachment of the end of the barrel. Could lead to clipping. It also seems like it would affect harmonics of the barrel but that could go either way. I may still try shifting the shroud forward to increase the volume, as Aaron does, but it isn't high on my list. I saw 85-88 db at 15 feet which I think is pretty good, especially for a 30-40 fpe airgun. My little Prod is this loud. But lower would be better I guess. Aaron new longer shroud was under 70 (barely) and his modified stock shroud was mid-70s. So better but unknown is the noise level of the stock 177. If it's as loud as my 25 (which seems unlikely) then his mods are a significant benefit. If they do not destroy accuracy due to clipping. Swapping hair curlers for some of the baffles could also be beneficial and would not require shifting the shroud forward. I'm skeptical because I tested something like this when I was making moderators but maybe I did something wrong.
I probably need to revisit my trigger setting. Others (including Aaron) are reporting they got down to about 1 lb. I think mine is above that. But it breaks crisply and is light enough I don't think it's affecting my group size. If I got it a little lighter it might tie with my Avenger amongst my air rifles. The unmodified Prod trigger is still my favorite and that is unlikely to change. The Prod has some first stage but it is very light like the P35. I took the first stage out of the Avenger. All three are crisp. But the Prod is the lightest and the P35 the heaviest at this point.
I would also say that I am happy with the build quality of my P35 so far. It seems far more robust than my Avenger and even better than my Prod. Much less plastic than the Avenger. The trigger block is noticably solid even a bit heavy feeling and the parts are well finished. The shroud design and construction are better than my other guns (and it's more effective). There are no odd machining marks, at least that I've found so far. Fit and finish is great from my point of view. I think it's the best of any of my guns, powder or air. But I, admittedly, do not buy high end guns.
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I am glad it is working for you.
Bullpups are a bit more difficult to shoot tight group with than full sized rifles, so there is a learning curve involved.
You may have noticed that you can move the shroud tube forward. You do this by unscrewing it from the rear of the barrel near the scope base end. Once unscrewed you will find that it is attached to a threaded bushing that has been slid over the barrel from the muzzle and secured to the barrel with a set screw. Loosening the set screw and sliding it forward will give you more volume in the front for hair curlers, but at the cost of overall length.
Roachcreek
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I did a bit more shooting this morning but mainly with pellets neither of my 25s like (benjamins). I shot a few more groups with H&N FTT and got so-so groups. 1/2 inch or so. One was bigger. I also shot some cast pellets I had from a mold I sent back. They shot a lot better from this gun than they did from my Avenger. I called NOE to admit part of my prior issue was apparently gun related but they are still sending me a new mold. I hope the new mold shoots at least as well and I may have a really cheap source of pellets for this gun.
I was shooting the Benjamins to test Aaron's ideas on shroud changes. I must admit upfront that Aaron was 100% right and I regret doubting him. I had to relearn that I have to watch what I am shooting into or the sound of the pellets impact is what I measure, not the report of the gun. Aaron's idea is in a youtube but he takes really inexpensive hair rollers ($1/6 from the dollar store), cuts them in half, wraps with felt (I used fabric), and puts them between the metal baffles that come in the shroud. You cannot reasonably use all the baffles, he recommended 4. I also fired one shot with no baffles or rollers, that was really loud, 98.2 db (at 15 feet, that is what I used for all these measurements). With stock baffles, 80.4, 87.1, and 87.8 db. With four curler/baffle combinations, the shroud was about 1 7/8 longer and I measured 69.4, 70.5, and 67.4 db. Tben I tried 3 and got 76.3, 76.4, and 73.7. I had the shroud over an inch extended but I may not have pushed it back as far as it would go. Then I went to 2 and measured 77.8, 78.4, and 78.9 db. The shroud was not extended at all with 2. That is where I left it. My pellets hitting the pellet trap are around 85 db and I don't have any easy way to reduce that. So having the gun a lot quieter than that doesn't seem necessary.
Yesterday I was confused about why I saw threads inside the shroud. It was the aluminum piece that has an O-ring on it that screws to the end of the barrel. I think it was threading on and off when I pulled the shroud from the gun but I took it out of the gun and put it on the barrel with a couple drops of blue loctite in the threads to keep it on. That worked during all my testing.
So I have a 30-40 fpe 25 caliber airgun who's report is less than 80db. And I could make it less than 70db if I wanted with the only cost a less than 2 inch increase in the gun length. That's better than any moderator I've seen. Makes me want to find some baffles that fit my other guns and do something similar in their empty shrouds.
I also messed with the trigger some more. I'd say it is as good as my Avenger now as long as you are not turned off by a fairly long first stage. I just turned the sear adjustment screw that is easily accessed once you take the stock off. I can turn it in a bit more but then I can't put on the lock nut. I'll probably order a bit longer one next time I place a McMaster Carr order. I think the threads are 3mmx.5 and the stock length is 6mm. I think an 8mm will be long enough to put it in as far as you can and stick cock the gun and also still be able to use the lock nut. I could have just put blue locktite on the screw but I'd rather leave the pull slightly heavier until I get a new screw. I don't think the trigger is an issue. I was surprised how far I could turn it in and still cock the gun. I test for slam fire too and never could get it to do that, even with the sear engagement less than where it is set now.
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I found the best way to silence the p15 without adding too much length was to do the hair curler / washer mod and add a 1/2 UNF adaptor to the Shroud end and add a Huggett Atom at 2.5 inches and almost the same diameter as the shroud, works perfect...Always thought it would look great on the p35...
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Your rifle looks great, Mike. But I can't imagine adding a moderator when just using 4 of the half hair curler+baffle units gets it down to 70 db or less and adds less than 2 inches to the length. I left mine with only two of the units for about 80db. Seems plenty quiet enough to me. But it's still nice to know what is possible. Maybe someday I will see it differently.
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Your rifle looks great, Mike. But I can't imagine adding a moderator when just using 4 of the half hair curler+baffle units gets it down to 70 db or less and adds less than 2 inches to the length. I left mine with only two of the units for about 80db. Seems plenty quiet enough to me. But it's still nice to know what is possible. Maybe someday I will see it differently.
Thanks Jim, since this image was taken I added a reduced diameter valve needle, stronger hammer spring and an extreme airguns power plenum that pushed the airtube length forward by about 2 inches, so it now looks and balances well... It can shoots JSB Monster 13.43 grains up to 925 fps so around 25 ft lbs in 177 caliber, I have it settled at 875 fps or 22 ftlbs so the extra moderation is needed at these power outputs...The gun also has a CZ barrel in it...
Looking forward to getting a p35 and playing around with it...
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MB,
You obviously have the skills to make this work.
Roachcreek
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Mike,
Thanks again. Nice to know what is possible. I have a 25 Avenger tuned to over 45 ft. lbs. so I am currently inclined to leave the P35 around 30 ft. lbs to preserve the ~70 shot count. But I've seen that the regulator adjustment is inside the air storage tube and I've messed with the hammer spring a little to see what effect it had on accuracy. So I'm sure I could increase power. I also saw a youtube on getting the brass transfer port out and I drilled mine out on my Prod so I am familiar with doing that. I also saw somebody offering power plenums. Does that reduce air inventory? It also seems to me that the barrel is unnecessarily short. Another inch or two would still leave the gun nice and short and would pick up some velocity. But unless mine stops shooting accurately I probably won't change it. I fire polished it again with JBs today and I got three groups in a row with H&Ns slug HP .250 34 grain that averaged just over 1/4 inch at 25 yards. The groups average a little bigger with pellets, H&N FTT seem to shoot the best of those I've tried, but my best group was with FTTs and was just 1/8th inch center to center.
Light, quiet, powerful and accurate is a tough combination to beat.
Jim
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I meant that praise for Jim, sorry for the confusion.
Roachcreek]
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Mike,
Thanks again. Nice to know what is possible. I have a 25 Avenger tuned to over 45 ft. lbs. so I am currently inclined to leave the P35 around 30 ft. lbs to preserve the ~70 shot count. But I've seen that the regulator adjustment is inside the air storage tube and I've messed with the hammer spring a little to see what effect it had on accuracy. So I'm sure I could increase power. I also saw a youtube on getting the brass transfer port out and I drilled mine out on my Prod so I am familiar with doing that. I also saw somebody offering power plenums. Does that reduce air inventory? It also seems to me that the barrel is unnecessarily short. Another inch or two would still leave the gun nice and short and would pick up some velocity. But unless mine stops shooting accurately I probably won't change it. I fire polished it again with JBs today and I got three groups in a row with H&Ns slug HP .250 34 grain that averaged just over 1/4 inch at 25 yards. The groups average a little bigger with pellets, H&N FTT seem to shoot the best of those I've tried, but my best group was with FTTs and was just 1/8th inch center to center.
Light, quiet, powerful and accurate is a tough combination to beat.
Can't beat that... I think they are great platforms to work with...
Jim
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I was messing around this morning and learned something I want to pass along, partially to help me remember. I started out testing different shroud lengths but I was shooting so poorly I couldn't test anything. I backed out to 33 yards but groups were almost all over an inch. Lots of shots going high right. So I started trying different holds and found I could avoid the high right fliers by better follow through. If I hold it into my shoulder (like it actually had detectable recoil) with a little pressure on the fore end I can avoid the fliers and get groups back down around 1/4 inch. This has probably been going on all along as I tested and I just got unusually relaxed about my shooting this morning.
I've seen the same thing with my other two guns, especially the Prod which is almost exactly the same length as the P35. My avenger is about 18 inches longer than these guns and seems more hold tolerant but will still shoot high right if I don't hold it decently.
Seems like the biggest barrier to better accuracy with the P35 is me.
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I finally did a fairly long shot string with one pellet type today and thought somebody might be interested in how well the regulator in my P35 is doing. I shot 25 H&N FTT through my gun and got an average velocity of 845 fps, spread of 14.1 fps and a std deviation of 3.74 fps. Energy was 31.1 to 32.2 fpe. My Avenger has done both better and worse than this but I think my P35's regulator is doing pretty well. Especially when I have put less than 1,000 pellets through it. Groups were not so great but not terrible, 1/2 to 1 inch at 30 meters.
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This may be my last update on this. I've been frustrated that my groups fluctuated from 1/8 inch to an inch or occasionally a little more. I thought it was my follow through. I retested different hammer spring settings this morning thinking maybe it was not tuned properly. But my previous setting shot the best group (about 3/16 at 30 meters).
Then I looked down the barrel with a light shining in the breach. Fabric from my hair curler modification was hanging into the pellet path! I did not follow Aaron's design and use felt, I used a fabric remnant from Walmart. I didn't want to drive 10 miles to hobby lobby. When I saw this I still was not 100% sure it was the issue but I got the felt, installed it, and shot 5 groups (again at 30 meters). The smallest was 1/4, the largest was 9/16. The POI was high left close to an inch. I fixed that as I shot the groups. I think the POI shift is as good an evidence this was an issue as the smaller groups. I sometimes did that well before fixing this. I will continue to check but I think my issue is resolved. The biggest groups were when I was not sure what was going on (due to the POI change). The last group was the smallest - I was concentrating then.
If you do this, use felt, of course, the cheap stuff at hobby lobby is only 33 cents and is recycled plastic. It should not break down. I also think it's a good idea to align the baffle/curler combos as you insert then using a straw. I use one when cleaning so I used that. Once they are in, they get clamped in place so they should not shift around but it is possible for them to be tilted or not well centered if you don't align them with a straw.
I am now pretty confident I can consistently shoot 1/4 to 1/2 inch groups at 33 yards now which is what I do with my other two guns. Avenger probably does the best but I think that is mainly that it is longer and thus easier to shoot from the bench. It's nice when things finally click.