GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Weihrauch Airguns => Topic started by: Tom1340 on October 10, 2021, 08:24:15 PM
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I opened my r9 up after about 2500 shots, plus 1 accidental dry fire and 1 detonation (loud bang, don’t know why?). Inside mostly looks good (the view of a novice). But the piston seal has a badly cracked face and one tear on the lip. So I will debur, replace the seal, and relube. I will probably use the air venturi seal offered by Pyramyd air, which I hope is same as OEM.
Can someone tell me if the new seal just slips onto the piston with hand pressure, or is something special required?
It’s still a new gun, so I am not planning modifications until I get a little more time with her and until I have a better understanding of tuning options. But since I’m inside the gun, is there anything else I should be doing now. What do you think? Tom
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Get the Vortek piston seal. They're much better than the OE and I don't trust air venturi parts. I once got a breech seal from them and it was too thick and it caused severe barrel droop. The piston seal pries off with a small screw driver. Similar to changing a bike tire. The new seal pops on. Just put the piston seal face down on the work bench. Then hook one side of the piston lip inside the seal and rock the piston vertical while pushing down. Just put some lube around the piston lip to help it pop on.
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Agree with the Vortek seal.
Getting the seal on is fairly easy. They can be a pain to take off though. Small screwdriver and pry.
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x3 on the Vortek seal. I also suggest that you do a through clean and re-lube with Krytox, GPL-205.
Pic of new Weihrauch seal for reference.
(https://i.imgur.com/Npg4lcLl.jpg)
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Okay, I'm going with Vortek seal. Thanks all.
Deerstalker, I had originally planned to degrease and use krytox. But after reading various post, I fear removing the tar on the spring and using krytox may cause twang in my OEM internals, which I understand have looser tolerances than tuner kits. So I'm thinking to use the vortek pg tune grease for this reassembly, and switch to krytox when I eventually install a kit.
(PG4 kit looks like a kit I could manage, but I'm still climbing the learning curve, and am waiting until I better understand the benefits of the different kits available.)
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Ya,. That's my next job once I do fall clean up of the small shop.. there been several posts on that deal just after a few thousand shots looking dingy / burnt/cracked.
Good luck..
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Okay, I'm going with Vortek seal. Thanks all.
Deerstalker, I had originally planned to degrease and use krytox. But after reading various post, I fear removing the tar on the spring and using krytox may cause twang in my OEM internals, which I understand have looser tolerances than tuner kits. So I'm thinking to use the vortek pg tune grease for this reassembly, and switch to krytox when I eventually install a kit.
(PG4 kit looks like a kit I could manage, but I'm still climbing the learning curve, and am waiting until I better understand the benefits of the different kits available.)
I've been using Krytox for several years now with complete satisfaction using snug fitting spring guides that kill both twang and vibration without "goop" to dampen the spring oscillations. I can also tell you that Krytox isn't thick enough to kill twang of the HW factory spring and loose fitting factory guide. Matter of fact, I'm of the personal opinion that any "spring dampening compound" applied thick enough to dampen spring vibrations is also thick enough to make the poi "temperature dependent".
Nix the "spring goops" and install a good aftermarket spring kit (like one from ARH) that relies on guide to spring fit to sweeten the shot cycle and use non-dieseling Krytox for lube after stripping the gun of factory lubes. A spring kit from ARH will accomplish 90% of what you would get from an expensive pro tune.
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Thanks Ed, your response, as well as all your previous posts, have been very informative. Your description of an ARH kit is quite compelling. I checked out ARH website. Is this kit one that should be a good fit for my r9? -Hornet MK6-R9,10,11-HW95-85 FAC.
I take it from your comments that ARH offers some advantage over Vortek PG4. If I can get comfortable about which kit, I'll make the leap now.
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The Vortek kits are good. I have them in all my guns and just installed 2 Hw30 Vortek kits for someone else. Although I wasn't impressed with the power levels attained with one of the kits as compared to the advertised levels as a whole including the Hw95 (R9) kits they are well made and produce a nice shot cycle. You do have to read (and follow) the instructions on the Vortek kits. Most problems encountered are installer error. If there's a problem it's easy to talk to Tom @ Vortek and he'll make good on any problems from his end. I've installed a bunch of these kits and have had a few problems but none that weren't made right. In the end they're good kits. Like anything else you will need to to have some mechanical ability to install them. I'm good with my hands but I don't do my taxes because I know my limits.
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Thanks Ed, your response, as well as all your previous posts, have been very informative. Your description of an ARH kit is quite compelling. I checked out ARH website. Is this kit one that should be a good fit for my r9? -Hornet MK6-R9,10,11-HW95-85 FAC.
I take it from your comments that ARH offers some advantage over Vortek PG4. If I can get comfortable about which kit, I'll make the leap now.
That is the ARH kit I installed into my HW95L .22 along with a Vortek seal and Krytox lube. Cocking is very smooth and soundless with a dull thud for a shot cycle. FPE averages about 16.4 using FTT 14.66 gr pellets. Rifle is crazy accurate for this 82+ year old.
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Thanks Ed, your response, as well as all your previous posts, have been very informative. Your description of an ARH kit is quite compelling. I checked out ARH website. Is this kit one that should be a good fit for my r9? -Hornet MK6-R9,10,11-HW95-85 FAC.
I take it from your comments that ARH offers some advantage over Vortek PG4. If I can get comfortable about which kit, I'll make the leap now.
I personally found the ARH Hornet spring "too hot" for my liking and when I build my spring kits I usually base them on the "thinner wire" ARH E3650 spring.........
(https://i.imgur.com/GXZl4Hh.jpg)
With the ARH springs I've gotten 20,000 shots with no velocity reduction so the ARH springs have been more consistent
As far as the Vortek springs are concerned the ones I tried in the past were fine for about 2500 shots then sagged significantly dropping velocity before finishing one case (4 boxes) of 7.9 grain Crosman Premiers (about 6 months of shooting when I was a lot more active shooting field target matches. Other shooters told me they had the same issues with the Vortek offerings so I'm convinced that they weren't good for "frequent shooters" at that time several years ago. I am currently using a spring kit based on a Vortek spring and it's holding up very well, however I don't currently shoot nearly as much as I did a few years ago. I do have to comment that the Vortek spring I'm using is more difficult to cock than the same HW95 with the E3650 spring but the velocity with the Vortek spring is also a bit higher (880fps vs 865fps)............
(https://i.imgur.com/hJdAn2i.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/sgeqM7K.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/heQ4TEG.jpg)
I'm also a less than enthusiastic about the current Vortek kits with what seems to me to be "gimmiky" spring guides with "steps" and unclosed spring ends which is one reason I buy bare springs and cut my own guides..........
(https://i.imgur.com/bo8vKQk.jpg)
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Thanks Ed, your response, as well as all your previous posts, have been very informative. Your description of an ARH kit is quite compelling. I checked out ARH website. Is this kit one that should be a good fit for my r9? -Hornet MK6-R9,10,11-HW95-85 FAC.
I take it from your comments that ARH offers some advantage over Vortek PG4. If I can get comfortable about which kit, I'll make the leap now.
I personally found the ARH Hornet spring "too hot" for my liking and when I build my spring kits I usually base them on the "thinner wire" ARH E3650 spring.........
(https://i.imgur.com/GXZl4Hh.jpg)
With the ARH springs I've gotten 20,000 shots with no velocity reduction so the ARH springs have been more consistent
As far as the Vortek springs are concerned the ones I tried in the past were fine for about 2500 shots then sagged significantly dropping velocity before finishing one case (4 boxes) of 7.9 grain Crosman Premiers (about 6 months of shooting when I was a lot more active shooting field target matches. Other shooters told me they had the same issues with the Vortek offerings so I'm convinced that they weren't good for "frequent shooters" at that time several years ago. I am currently using a spring kit based on a Vortek spring and it's holding up very well, however I don't currently shoot nearly as much as I did a few years ago. I do have to comment that the Vortek spring I'm using is more difficult to cock than the same HW95 with the E3650 spring but the velocity with the Vortek spring is also a bit higher (880fps vs 865fps)............
(https://i.imgur.com/hJdAn2i.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/sgeqM7K.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/heQ4TEG.jpg)
I'm also a less than enthusiastic about the current Vortek kits with what seems to me to be "gimmiky" spring guides with "steps" and unclosed spring ends which is one reason I buy bare springs and cut my own guides..........
(https://i.imgur.com/bo8vKQk.jpg)
I agree I wish Tom would go back to two closed ends. He custom builds my kits with the trigger end closed. He still won't give me 2 closed ends and a normal top hat like the earlier PG2 kits I preferred. The open ended spring and ridiculous 2 power top hat is supposedly to cater to European home tuners who can't close a spring and try to ride as close as they can to their legal limits. The difference between the high and low power top hat setting is approximately 10fps. A total joke. IMO
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ARH kit and vortex seal are on the way to me. I’ll be going with krytox lube. After removing factory grease, do I need to relube the inside of the compression/piston tube, our is it sufficient to simply put thin film on the piston, seal, and spring?
Your guidance is much appreciated. Tom
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ARH kit and vortex seal are on the way to me. I’ll be going with krytox lube. After removing factory grease, do I need to relube the inside of the compression/piston tube, our is it sufficient to simply put thin film on the piston, seal, and spring?
Your guidance is much appreciated. Tom
Krytox is non-dieseling but a thin application is best but not as critical as dieseling prone molly lubes. Personally I wipe a thin film of Krytox GPL205 on all sliding surfaces.
(https://i.imgur.com/GXZl4Hh.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/BJHsScQ.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/2gbPqo0.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/gY7IFh5.jpg)
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I polished the piston and cocking shoe, using very fine wet/dry sand paper, and the cocking cycle is smooth & soundless with a dull thud for the shot.
Take lots of pictures while you do your modifications as we would really like to see them and good luck.
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Here is a better pic of the sill notched spring guide so the Vortek spring doesn't need closed spring ends...........
(https://i.imgur.com/y6XzuR0.png)
Kinda reminds me of the original Vortek PG2 kit I bought years ago that lost 80fps velocity shooting less that 4 boxes of CPLs..........
(https://i.imgur.com/Ywc8twt.jpg)
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Here is a better pic of the sill notched spring guide so the Vortek spring doesn't need closed spring ends...........
(https://i.imgur.com/y6XzuR0.png)
Kinda reminds me of the original Vortek PG2 kit I bought years ago that lost 80fps velocity shooting less that 4 boxes of CPLs..........
(https://i.imgur.com/Ywc8twt.jpg)
Really Ed? How long ago was that and how's your new one doing?
BTW so others know 4 boxes of CPLs is 5000 pellets. Some people won't ever shoot 5000 pellets through a gun.
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"How long ago was that"
When the PG2 kits were first offered, a decade ago?
"how's your new one doing?"
Since I've installed the kit based on the new Vortek spring (.780 OD x .120 wire x 35 coils) I haven't shot even one box of CPLs so all is still good. ::)
"Some people won't ever shoot 5000 pellets through a gun"
Yep, a case of CPLs is about 5000 pellets and when I was more active living in West Virginia shooting hunter class field target, plinking, target practicing and squirrel hunting with my brother I would go through a 1250 count box of CPLs every month so it was too much of a hassle to replace a spring every 3 months during the "field target season". Evidently other piston shooters shot similar amounts of lead because more than a couple told me they had the exact same "low shot count issue" with the early PG2 kits. At that time both my brother and I shot about 10,000 pellets per year since shooting slowed up during January and February and I would replace a Maccari spring every other season. The first soft spring kit I bought from Jim Maccari for the R10 started shooting 7.9 grain CPLs at 910fps and after a couple years shooting 25,000 pellets (determined by counting empty pellet boxes and tins) the R10 was still shooting CPLs at 905fps.
I agree that most people don't shoot 5,000 pellets in a lifetime but I also don't think that they would be satisfied to lose 80fps velocity during that time. As mentioned, the Vortek spring did perform consistently for about 2500 shots but then sagged quickly when it did start sagging. Another issue I had with the early PG2 kit was that the R9 cocking shoe shaved the surface of the plastic "outer guide" allowing the swarf to mix with the molly paste I used at that time. I did however find that the "guide shaving" stopped after honing rounded edges of the R9 cocking shoe. I do wonder if this was a common issue since the new PG3 kits have a metal outer guide to replace the factory HW metal piston liner.........
(https://i.imgur.com/TMJZQTo.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/O9w2Ttl.png)
I've posted a while back that a couple years after the "sagging PG2 issue" I bought a new bare Vortek spring which did have closed end coils and cut my own fitted guides. This was the spring I bought and it had similar sagging issues when my .177 R9 velocity went from 910fps to 880fps within two months. The spring didn't break and CPLs @ 880fps was perfectly adequate, however the spring was replaced with an ARH offering rather than suffer the further Vortek spring degrade during the field target season. Here is a pic of the first bare Vortek spring I bought, .770 OD x .118 wire x 34 coils...........
(https://i.imgur.com/UW9ChJ8.jpg)
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"How long ago was that"
When the PG2 kits were first offered, a decade ago?
"how's your new one doing?"
Since I've installed the kit based on the new Vortek spring (.780 OD x .120 wire x 35 coils) I haven't shot even one box of CPLs so all is still good. ::)
"Some people won't ever shoot 5000 pellets through a gun"
Yep, a case of CPLs is about 5000 pellets and when I was more active living in West Virginia shooting hunter class field target, plinking, target practicing and squirrel hunting with my brother I would go through a 1250 count box of CPLs every month so it was too much of a hassle to replace a spring every 3 months during the "field target season". Evidently other piston shooters shot similar amounts of lead because more than a couple told me they had the exact same "low shot count issue" with the early PG2 kits. At that time both my brother and I shot about 10,000 pellets per year since shooting slowed up during January and February and I would replace a Maccari spring every other season. The first soft spring kit I bought from Jim Maccari for the R10 started shooting 7.9 grain CPLs at 910fps and after a couple years shooting 25,000 pellets (determined by counting empty pellet boxes and tins) the R10 was still shooting CPLs at 905fps.
I agree that most people don't shoot 5,000 pellets in a lifetime but I also don't think that they would be satisfied to lose 80fps velocity during that time. As mentioned, the Vortek spring did perform consistently for about 2500 shots but then sagged quickly when it did start sagging. Another issue I had with the early PG2 kit was that the R9 cocking shoe shaved the surface of the plastic "outer guide" allowing the swarf to mix with the molly paste I used at that time. I did however find that the "guide shaving" stopped after honing rounded edges of the R9 cocking shoe. I do wonder if this was a common issue since the new PG3 kits have a metal outer guide to replace the factory HW metal piston liner.........
(https://i.imgur.com/TMJZQTo.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/O9w2Ttl.png)
I've posted a while back that a couple years after the "sagging PG2 issue" I bought a new bare Vortek spring which did have closed end coils and cut my own fitted guides. This was the spring I bought and it had similar sagging issues when my .177 R9 velocity went from 910fps to 880fps within two months. The spring didn't break and CPLs @ 880fps was perfectly adequate, however the spring was replaced with an ARH offering rather than suffer the further Vortek spring degrade during the field target season. Here is a pic of the first bare Vortek spring I bought, .770 OD x .118 wire x 34 coils...........
(https://i.imgur.com/UW9ChJ8.jpg)
Don't you think that a 0.770"- 0.118" is a little light for an R9 to begin with. Isn't it possible you just had the wrong spring for the application to begin with?
After almost six years and I'm sure twice more than your 5000 rounds the PG2 spring in my first Vortek kit finally broke. The output stayed nearly the same throughout it's life after taking it's initial set. Happens to be for a Hw95 and the spring was a 0.785"-0.125" wire with 30 coils.
My spring incidentally broke right after stepping the caliber up to 20 from 177. Not sure if the change of load hastened its demise or not. Either way for around 18 bucks I changed the spring and it's making 15.2 fpe in 177 again. And very nicely I might add.
I've installed bunches of these kits in (Weihrauchs only) and I'm not going to say that all his kits were perfect. I've struggled with a few of them on rare occasion. Half the time it's on Vortek and the other half was on some odd ball Weihrauch machining tolerances. For the average guy without a lathe, a million hours and machinists skills these kits normally work out very well. Not always but if they don't Tom at Vortek will make it right.
A buddy and I once had the same very bad experience with a diawa spinning reel line over 20 years ago. On different nights both our reels seized and we had to leave biting fish for a 1/2 mile walk through soft sand in waders. That really really stinks. Leaving biting fish because of mechanical failure is completely unacceptable to me. Needless to say I swore all Diawas off and spouted venom about all Diawas every chance I got for decades. Last year I swallowed my pride and bought a Diawa reel based on another trusted fisherman friend's recommendation. I used it heavily last fall was quite impressed with it. Last winter I bought three more similar reels in different sizes. This season I've put them on lots of tough fish and they've been great. My point is times change, products change and staying stuck in the past doesn't do anyone any good.
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"Don't you think that a 0.770"- 0.118" is a little light for an R9 to begin with."
Nope, I've been using ARH E3650s for years and it has 35 coils of .120 wire wound with a .515ID (.755OD) which is very similar. With the Vortek spring I started with a CPL velocity of 910fps and replaced the spring when the velocity dropped to 880fps a couple months later.
"After almost six years, yada yada yada, Vortek kit finally broke"
Neither of the Vortek springs broke, they simply sagged with less than a case of CPLs.
"if they don't Tom at Vortek will make it right."
Yes, that's true, Tom offered to replace the original PG spring kit with open spring ends that failed after I called him but I declined because I didn't want to do a re-spring every few months when I was shooting field target matches. I was only calling him to make the issue known, not to get a replacement since other field target shooters at that time told me they had the exact same issue.
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"With the ARH springs I've gotten 20,000 shots with no velocity reduction so the ARH springs have been more consistent"
No expert but makes a good selling point on a spring to count on?
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"Don't you think that a 0.770"- 0.118" is a little light for an R9 to begin with."
Nope, I've been using ARH E3650s for years and it has 35 coils of .120 wire wound with a .515ID (.755OD) which is very similar. With the Vortek spring I started with a CPL velocity of 910fps and replaced the spring when the velocity dropped to 880fps a couple months later.
"After almost six years, yada yada yada, Vortek kit finally broke"
Neither of the Vortek springs broke, they simply sagged with less than a case of CPLs.
"if they don't Tom at Vortek will make it right."
Yes, that's true, Tom offered to replace the original PG spring kit with open spring ends that failed after I called him but I declined because I didn't want to do a re-spring every few months when I was shooting field target matches. I was only calling him to make the issue known, not to get a replacement since other field target shooters at that time told me they had the exact same issue.
Fwiw using just spring diameter and thicknesses isn't a necessarily apples to apples comparison. Material has a lot to do with it too. The factory Hw95 spring is about 0.805" & 0.123" and 33.5 coils.
You're so engrossed in the details and defending your position, you totally missed the simple point of my post. Times change and so do products. We should occasionally reevaluate our prejudices.
For decades I turned off people from reels that I knew nothing about because Diawa already discontinued the reels that failed on my friend and me.
Be well
Ron
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"Don't you think that a 0.770"- 0.118" is a little light for an R9 to begin with."
Nope, I've been using ARH E3650s for years and it has 35 coils of .120 wire wound with a .515ID (.755OD) which is very similar. With the Vortek spring I started with a CPL velocity of 910fps and replaced the spring when the velocity dropped to 880fps a couple months later.
"After almost six years, yada yada yada, Vortek kit finally broke"
Neither of the Vortek springs broke, they simply sagged with less than a case of CPLs.
"if they don't Tom at Vortek will make it right."
Yes, that's true, Tom offered to replace the original PG spring kit with open spring ends that failed after I called him but I declined because I didn't want to do a re-spring every few months when I was shooting field target matches. I was only calling him to make the issue known, not to get a replacement since other field target shooters at that time told me they had the exact same issue.
Fwiw using just spring diameter and thicknesses isn't a necessarily apples to apples comparison. Material has a lot to do with it too. The factory Hw95 spring is about 0.805" & 0.123" and 33.5 coils.
You're so engrossed in the details and defending your position, you totally missed the simple point of my post. Times change and so do products. We should occasionally reevaluate our prejudices.
For decades I turned off people from reels that I knew nothing about because Diawa already discontinued the reels that failed on my friend and me.
Be well
Ron
"Fwiw using just spring diameter and thicknesses isn't a necessarily apples to apples comparison."
You're right, I'm only defending my positions based on personal experience! ;D
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Dang.... It's like the Ford guy vs. the Chevy guy now...lol
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I will agree with ED!!! long term use is the only way to know, and why I only use JM springs or kits, I have had to many issues with V Tec products to make me want to change from JM!!!! I know VT sometimes is good out of the gate but they fail compared to JM's offerings! Yes people do get good ones but theirs to many bad 1's to let you know they don't last over the long haul! JMO ;) and if you new air gunners want to try something outside the box that's cool, but been there and done that myself ::)
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Dang.... It's like the Ford guy vs. the Chevy guy now...lol
LOL......my Ford Ranger has been an OK pickup truck but my last several new drivers have been Honda Civics and I replaced each when the odometer tripped 500,000 miles. :o
(https://i.imgur.com/EoWmIWq.jpg)
Now back to airguns......... ;D
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I just reassembled my r9 with new vortek seal, ARH spring kit, and krytox 205. It was a pretty easy job. I've shot about 30 pellets and the shot cycle is quite smooth. The "thunk" of my original spring has been replace with a crisp "crack". I need more time to fully assess the change, but right now, it looks quite good.
I noted on a previous post that whatever my pivot bolt tension is, the barrel is much looser at 90 degrees than when the barrel is near straight. As you can see from photo, the pivot spacer is wearing unevenly on the breech block. From the wear pattern in the forks, it appears that the pivot spacers are too thin to fill the space, and when I tighten the bolt enough to get traction, I am pinching the block retaining forks, so that they are contacting the block/spacers at the forward most edge of the spacers. I think this could be a problem. Finding the material and making thicker spacers is beyond my ability. I thought about doubling up the OEM spacers, but I can't find any. So once again, I am looking for guidance.
Someday I hope to be able to post photos of my targets that look like Oldgringo's and Sean's. Thanks all.
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If you haven't already, try calling AoA, maybe they have some. You can also try TW Chambers. The part number is W077 and they show to have them in stock:
https://www.gunspares.co.uk/shopdisplayproducts.asp?page=2&id=24575&Search= (https://www.gunspares.co.uk/shopdisplayproducts.asp?page=2&id=24575&Search=)
Might also get lucky and someone here has some in their toolbox or can suggest how to make your own.
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Thanks Steve, I was not familiar with AoA. But they have the shims in stock, and one is on the way to me. Looks like I need to fill an excess gap of .06 to .09 mm, I hope the new shim is close to this range.
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The forks are usually are spread more than the combined thickness of the breech and shims. The wear isn't from uneven tension it's from the sharp side of the shim being installed against the breech. If you look at the shims they are stamped out 0.004“ shim stock. From the stamping process it cups the edges of the shim often leaving sharp edges. If the shim was installed upside down, adjusted too tight (common from the factory) or lubed incorrectly it will score the bluing on the breech.
I'm not saying that you can't add a shim if you want. I'm saying that it isn't required and the scoring isn't from what you think.
Also if you have barrel droop it's probably due to the cocking linkage binding against the underside of the breech. Pretty common on the new guns. All you got do is slight bend the cocking arm about 3" back from the first bend so the cocking arm hook comes up (towards the compression tube) about 3 or 4mm
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The forks are usually are spread more than the combined thickness of the breech and shims. The wear isn't from uneven tension it's from the sharp side of the shim being installed against the breech. If you look at the shims they are stamped out 0.004“ shim stock. From the stamping process it cups the edges of the shim often leaving sharp edges. If the shim was installed upside down, adjusted too tight (common from the factory) or lubed incorrectly it will score the bluing on the breech.
I'm not saying that you can't add a shim if you want. I'm saying that it isn't required and the scoring isn't from what you think.
Also if you have barrel droop it's probably due to the cocking linkage binding against the underside of the breech. Pretty common on the new guns. All you got do is slight bend the cocking arm about 3" back from the first bend so the cocking arm hook comes up (towards the compression tube) about 3 or 4mm
Agreed, I just measured a HW95 barrel shim and it measured .005 thick............
(https://i.imgur.com/u18wg61.jpg)
Here are a couple HW barrels that functioned perfectly showing uneven wear from the barrel shims.........
(https://i.imgur.com/b4CEdI7.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/lcXhgTC.jpg)
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I just installed a new HW80k .177 barrel on my HW95. Tom at Vortek actually diagnosed the previous barrels problem and said his PG4S kit(which was already installed) should give 15-16 fpe. Put on new barrel, still breaking in barrel and piston seal, but the Vortek is now giving 15.1 fpe (up from 12) or 90 fps increase with 9.57 grain pellet.