GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Big Bore AirGun Gate => Topic started by: Ironman482 on October 10, 2021, 03:28:23 PM
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Thought I'd start a new thread, I took the 45 apart this morning , simple to work on, so I polished the trigger and sear ,polished the crown ,(it was rough) chamfered the ports at the barrel (not much ,need a better bit for my dremel) ,cleaned the barrel ,measured the twist 30/1 , the trigger measured at 7 lbs ,I'll ck again when I reassemble , the hammer spring is alot longer than the stock 357 ,that's all I got for now had to run some errands, the bolt is dragging on the o ring pretty hard ,gonna polish it too . Pics below.
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Looking forward for your testing for power with different ammo.
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I'm impressed with the quality of the parts and manufacturing, lightyears ahead of my Diana Bandit.
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DJ the Bandit is manufactured by a different company than the AEA guns I think. The Bandit is built by Snowpeak. That goes to show you that some of the China companies are indeed striving for better quality.
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Did some more mods before I put it back together, I drilled 4 more holes in the shroud block that threads onto the end of the barrel total of 8 now , the spacer that goes against that piece partially blocks the holes that let air back into the shroud, so I chamfered one end of the spacer to let air flow through the holes better, then I drilled 4 holes at the back end of the shroud to let air escape, put a piece of scotch pad around the barrel to slow the flow and quiet it down, the shroud only has 3 baffles so not BYF till donny makes a adapter. Got the trigger down to 5 1/2 lbs ,I think it will get better with use. Fired a mag over the chrony , the 1st two were errors, forgot to turn theight on duhh , # 3-969 ,4- 970 ,5 - 949 , 6-931 , that's with 200 gr slugs and 3400 psi fill. The poppet is the same soft looking material that was on the 357 , the poppet spring is massive, like to never got the retainer back on , pics to follow.
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That transfer ports so big you could throw a cat through it,,,,,, but it does have o rings on both ends the 357 was just a press fit.
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Looking forward for your testing for power with different ammo.
waiting on a mold from Aresenal for 295 gr they have to make it ,so it will be a while. For my kind of hunting ( head and neck shot ) I think the 200 gr hp will be fine.
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looks like a lot of steel , and thats a good thing.. how robust is the hammer spring ?? figured for the sidelever , it would be a beast
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Fine job making the thing more accurate and consistent Ironman482. The fps spread looks really good through shots 3 & 4 for long range accuracy. Check out the taper on the lead flutes as well. They are probably going to need attention there, just like the crown did. A Morse taper #8 with some relief grinding on the big end (down to .457") should do the trick there. Did you happen get a bore diameter measurement of the slug? My bore is at least .460" but I need more slugs to test to be 100% sure. I hope the NSA slugs I ordered fly well because they only go to .457" but powder coating on them should seal things up all the way.
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looks like a lot of steel , and thats a good thing.. how robust is the hammer spring ?? figured for the sidelever , it would be a beast
It is not that bad really. You can tell that you are cocking a big bore, versus an Impact or the like.
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Fine job making the thing more accurate and consistent Ironman482. The fps spread looks really good through shots 3 & 4 for long range accuracy. Check out the taper on the lead flutes as well. They are probably going to need attention there, just like the crown did. A Morse taper #8 with some relief grinding on the big end (down to .457") should do the trick there. Did you happen get a bore diameter measurement of the slug? My bore is at least .460" but I need more slugs to test to be 100% sure. I hope the NSA slugs I ordered fly well because they only go to .457" but powder coating on them should seal things up all the way.
are you talking about a reamer (Morse taper #8 ) and is there different grades , fine ,med or coarse ,maybe called a finish reamer, I don't want to make it worse.
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Fine job making the thing more accurate and consistent Ironman482. The fps spread looks really good through shots 3 & 4 for long range accuracy. Check out the taper on the lead flutes as well. They are probably going to need attention there, just like the crown did. A Morse taper #8 with some relief grinding on the big end (down to .457") should do the trick there. Did you happen get a bore diameter measurement of the slug? My bore is at least .460" but I need more slugs to test to be 100% sure. I hope the NSA slugs I ordered fly well because they only go to .457" but powder coating on them should seal things up all the way.
I pushed an NSA 350 grain slug through my .457 barrel and got .4575 up to .4587. I'm betting the lands are .457 and the grooves are .458, or somewhere close to that. With calipers rather than a mic I could probably just grab the flats on the bullet and get .457 exact.
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Looking at the last picture in the 1st post - isn't the rifling in a barrel supposed to reach all the way to the very end? Looks like a 1/4" gap of smooth steel between the end of the rifling and the end of the barrel
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Looking at the last picture in the 1st post - isn't the rifling in a barrel supposed to reach all the way to the very end? Looks like a 1/4" gap of smooth steel between the end of the rifling and the end of the barrel
I am pretty sure that's the breech end.
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Looking at the last picture in the 1st post - isn't the rifling in a barrel supposed to reach all the way to the very end? Looks like a 1/4" gap of smooth steel between the end of the rifling and the end of the barrel
I am pretty sure that's the breech end.
no that is the muzzle end ,that's what AEA calls a crown, theres been a few post on this ,mine cleaned up with a dremel tool with a felt wheel and polishing compound , others have actually cut 1/2 inch or more off the end to fix it , but if it shoots good I wouldn't worry about it, definitely room for improvement " are you listening AEA ".
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If the rain holds off ,I'll try to get to the range today , might even fire a few in the back yard after the close neighbors go to work.
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Looking at the last picture in the 1st post - isn't the rifling in a barrel supposed to reach all the way to the very end? Looks like a 1/4" gap of smooth steel between the end of the rifling and the end of the barrel
I am pretty sure that's the breech end.
no that is the muzzle end ,that's what AEA calls a crown, theres been a few post on this ,mine cleaned up with a dremel tool with a felt wheel and polishing compound , others have actually cut 1/2 inch or more off the end to fix it , but if it shoots good I wouldn't worry about it, definitely room for improvement " are you listening AEA ".
I'll take a closer look at mine next time I have the shroud off. It shot great while the compressor was working, so I wasn't really paying attention. This morning I adjusted the barrel a little bit to get the magazine fit a bit better. After taking the cheek pad off of my receiver I noticed the magazine was very loose. So far I'm impressed, it feels every bit as nice/well made as my Seneca.
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It's raining here , so I decided to zero the scope at 15 yrds in the shop , not good , 5 inch group at 15 , I believe the hunter supply slugs are too small ,I ck'ed them with my cheap digital calipers earlier and they measured 456-457 , so I got the made in USA omega mic and the slugs are 454- 455 mostly 454 so I ordered 3 different weights from NSA at 457 ,that's the largest he makes , I'm thinking 458 would be even better ,we'll. See
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It's raining here , so I decided to zero the scope at 15 yrds in the shop , not good , 5 inch group at 15 , I believe the hunter supply slugs are too small ,I ck'ed them with my cheap digital calipers earlier and they measured 456-457 , so I got the made in USA omega mic and the slugs are 454- 455 mostly 454 so I ordered 3 different weights from NSA at 457 ,that's the largest he makes , I'm thinking 458 would be even better ,we'll. See
That's why I got the .458 and .457 dies. I'm probably just going to stick with my 244 grn NOE RG4 mold, which just got here today, for a while. After I get the "power kit" and test with it I may order some heavier slug molds.
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I can't imagine the lands are only 1/2 thou high!.... If they are 0.457" and the lands are 0.458", you would barely be able to see or feel them.... In your photo, they look VERY high.... deeper than most airgun rifling, in fact....
Bob
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I can't imagine the lands are only 1/2 thou high!.... If they are 0.457" and the lands are 0.458", you would barely be able to see or feel them.... In your photo, they look VERY high.... deeper than most airgun rifling, in fact....
Bob
Thanks for the correction, I'm still learning.
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Fine job making the thing more accurate and consistent Ironman482. The fps spread looks really good through shots 3 & 4 for long range accuracy. Check out the taper on the lead flutes as well. They are probably going to need attention there, just like the crown did. A Morse taper #8 with some relief grinding on the big end (down to .457") should do the trick there. Did you happen get a bore diameter measurement of the slug? My bore is at least .460" but I need more slugs to test to be 100% sure. I hope the NSA slugs I ordered fly well because they only go to .457" but powder coating on them should seal things up all the way.
are you talking about a reamer (Morse taper #8 ) and is there different grades , fine ,med or coarse ,maybe called a finish reamer, I don't want to make it worse.
I don't know as if you could do any worse than the factory's tooling cutters already have. The amount of burrs on those lands is huge, on both ends. There is hardly any breech taper, and the lands and grooves actually start 0.200" deeper than the probe pushes into the barrel. It can do nothing but benefit from tapering those to the one degree taper.
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I can't imagine the lands are only 1/2 thou high!.... If they are 0.457" and the lands are 0.458", you would barely be able to see or feel them.... In your photo, they look VERY high.... deeper than most airgun rifling, in fact.... I was measuring the unfired slugs not ones that had been pushed thru the bore , I've never slugged a barrel , I did try to push one down the 357 challenger barrel and the effort was so much that I gave up after about 1 inch and drove it out from the other end, what is the proper way to slug a barrel?
Bob
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Since I have a bunch of slugs that are probably too small for my 45 , l'm thinking about powder coating them , can someone school me on this process , tools involved, and how much you can expect to increase diameter.
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You can do a quick check of land and groove diameters by tapping a slug into the muzzle, and then tapping it back out with a wooden dowel or aluminum rod from the breech end.... You can check the chamber by reversing the process.... Both require having access to both ends of the barrel.... I have pushed pellets through a barrel all the way, but slugs are pretty tough, unless they are sized small enough, and then you can measure the land diameter, but not the grooves....
Bob
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Since I have a bunch of slugs that are probably too small for my 45 , l'm thinking about powder coating them , can someone school me on this process , tools involved, and how much you can expect to increase diameter.
I use this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006ZBCZNS (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006ZBCZNS) and a cheap toaster oven, you'll want some 1/8" or 1/4" chicken wire to line the tray with so the bullets don't stick as much when you pull them out of the oven, and size them after. usually cook at 350 for 20 min. You'll need a normal shop compressor for the powder kit. There is a method of using a plastic container to shake them around with the powder until they build up static and the paint sticks, but I ain't got time for that.
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Since I have a bunch of slugs that are probably too small for my 45 , l'm thinking about powder coating them , can someone school me on this process , tools involved, and how much you can expect to increase diameter.
I have had very good luck with the wet powder coating method and plain old Harbor Freight powder coating paint - especially the black color, though white works as well but white tends to result in a thicker coating than black. The wet method for me is much much more even and has a better result every time compared to the dry method.
Equipment needed:
toaster oven
powder coat paint ($6 at HF)
Lacquer thinner
metal screen/mesh to make a couple of small rectangular pans to bake the slugs
2 plastic tubs with lids to shake slugs in
It does not take much PC paint to do a batch of slugs. I buy OxyClean powder and there is a little 1 oz scoop in the tub. I use about 1/3 to 1/2 a scoop to do 50 slugs at a time.
Steps:
1) Put slugs into a tub, add the PC paint, add about 1/2 oz of lacquer thinner, pop the top on and swirl around and shake about 10 seconds.
2) Put the screen "pan" you make (sized to fit into the toaster oven) onto a piece of cardboard and dump the slugs into the pan
3) Bake at 400F for 20 minutes then allow to cool for 10-15 minutes or so.
4) Remove the slugs and break apart any that are stuck together
5) repeat steps 1-4
6) place slugs into the 2nd tub. spritz with WD-40 or your preferred lube and shake with top on so they are evenly covered. The lube is so the PC does not get damaged while sizing
7) size the lubricated slugs. you are done
I do 2 batches at a time, using 2 screen "pans" so that one can be cooling while the other is baking.
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Thanks Jared, that's just what I needed to know,
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Let us know how it works out. If you can bring a .454 or so slug up to size to fit our .457 Challengers that opens up a whole lot of molds.
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Wondering if you cam remove the barrel without degassing .. Need to clean the barrel good...
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Wondering if you cam remove the barrel without degassing .. Need to clean the barrel good...
Yes. I loosened the 15/16 barrel nut, removed the shroud, loosened the clamp screws and this is where I should have marked the barrel with a paint marker where the barrel passes through one of the barrel band clamps. After every thing is loose you can start turning the barrel, there are a lot of threads.
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Wondering if you cam remove the barrel without degassing .. Need to clean the barrel good...
Yes. I loosened the 15/16 barrel nut, removed the shroud, loosened the clamp screws and this is where I should have marked the barrel with a paint marker where the barrel passes through one of the barrel band clamps. After every thing is loose you can start turning the barrel, there are a lot of threads.
Getting the band clamps put back in the correct position matters, as they control the angle and position of the trigger and safety, as well as the linkage back to the sear. I found that the trigger linkage needs to be in the just the right spot or the safety will not work and the gun will fire even when the safety seems to be engaged.
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Wondering if you cam remove the barrel without degassing .. Need to clean the barrel good...
Yes. I loosened the 15/16 barrel nut, removed the shroud, loosened the clamp screws and this is where I should have marked the barrel with a paint marker where the barrel passes through one of the barrel band clamps. After every thing is loose you can start turning the barrel, there are a lot of threads.
Haven't had a chance to test mine yet, but thanks for the tip. Didn't realize any of it was connected to the trigger.
Getting the band clamps put back in the correct position matters, as they control the angle and position of the trigger and safety, as well as the linkage back to the sear. I found that the trigger linkage needs to be in the just the right spot or the safety will not work and the gun will fire even when the safety seems to be engaged.
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Since I have a bunch of slugs that are probably too small for my 45 , l'm thinking about powder coating them , can someone school me on this process , tools involved, and how much you can expect to increase diameter.
I have had very good luck with the wet powder coating method and plain old Harbor Freight powder coating paint - especially the black color, though white works as well but white tends to result in a thicker coating than black. The wet method for me is much much more even and has a better result every time compared to the dry method.
Equipment needed:
toaster oven
powder coat paint ($6 at HF)
Lacquer thinner
metal screen/mesh to make a couple of small rectangular pans to bake the slugs
2 plastic tubs with lids to shake slugs in
It does not take much PC paint to do a batch of slugs. I buy OxyClean powder and there is a little 1 oz scoop in the tub. I use about 1/3 to 1/2 a scoop to do 50 slugs at a time.
Steps:
1) Put slugs into a tub, add the PC paint, add about 1/2 oz of lacquer thinner, pop the top on and swirl around and shake about 10 seconds.
2) Put the screen "pan" you make (sized to fit into the toaster oven) onto a piece of cardboard and dump the slugs into the pan
3) Bake at 400F for 20 minutes then allow to cool for 10-15 minutes or so.
4) Remove the slugs and break apart any that are stuck together
5) repeat steps 1-4
6) place slugs into the 2nd tub. spritz with WD-40 or your preferred lube and shake with top on so they are evenly covered. The lube is so the PC does not get damaged while sizing
7) size the lubricated slugs. you are done
I do 2 batches at a time, using 2 screen "pans" so that one can be cooling while the other is baking.
got my 1st batch going, gonna be a interesting project, wish me luck
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Nice trays, wish I had some expanded metal hanging around. There are plenty of cheap toaster ovens on Amazon.
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BBQ tray at local stores.
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Slugs look pretty good!
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Slug those bores before buying a bunch of ammo and or molds... Cleaned and polished bore came out to 0.461" without gaining much size with the polishing.
(http://)
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Did some more testing today and got a much more realistic 520-ish FPE vs the 800 I was getting before. I think my chronograph displayed 100 MPS higher than it was supposed to as I got the same 351 MPS reading today, but the previous was 245 MPS, I figured it could not be right.
I also just now measured .458 on a mic with the slug I pushed through the barrel.
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Yeah, that jump to 800+ FPE was totally unrealistic,....but hey a 500+ FPE .45 is pretty wicked :)
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Yeah, that jump to 800+ FPE was totally unrealistic,....but hey a 500+ FPE .45 is pretty wicked :)
500 FPE is plenty respectable and I'm pretty happy with it. 600+ would be nice, but I can wait till the "power kit" becomes available.
I got the same results Bin did in the video when I aired up to 300b. I made peak power just like he did at the same 250b fill pressure. To keep from stressing out my compressor I just refill after three shots. The 'pup is zeroed with the 302 grain hollow core slugs at 35 yards. If the weather is decent I might cast some slugs tomorrow, and the sizing dies might also get here tomorrow. I probably won't shoot the 'pup again until I have a decent supply of cast slugs. Air Bolts are backordered, so I'll have to wait for those, but I am looking forward to trying them
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A 300gr bullet traveling close to 900 fps is nothing to sneeze about.
I wander what FPE that gun would get with a EPP/UG
I would rather focus towards a bullet with a big Meplat that would travel in the 950 fps ( I would guess 250-270gr ? ),......that would be lethal :)
FPE is a great number to chase and it makes us all worm and fuzzy ;D ;D ;D but once you are sending a 250gr bullet it will make so much damage already no real need for more weight, at that point I look more to the shape ( big Meplat to me is hunting nirvana ) and speed to get that bullet to really get there and stay flat.
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Slug those bores before buying a bunch of ammo and or molds... Cleaned and polished bore came out to 0.461" without gaining much size with the polishing.
(http://)
Did you slug the full length of the barrel ,or just the muzzle end ,.461 is way big ,might be why my accuracy at 15yds with 456 ammo was so bad .
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I just tried a slug from vortex pellets that measured. 455 and it slid in the end of the muzzle without touching , so yeah its gonna need to be slugged with the unsized powder coated slugs I made , I ck it tomorrow.
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Slug those bores before buying a bunch of ammo and or molds... Cleaned and polished bore came out to 0.461" without gaining much size with the polishing.
(http://)
Did you slug the full length of the barrel ,or just the muzzle end ,.461 is way big ,might be why my accuracy at 15yds with 456 ammo was so bad .
I do push the slug lead all the way through. I just spent a few hours re-sizing a .457 die to .4605 with a drill, sand paper, and silicone oil for wet lube. Getting to that last half thousandth to .461 is taking a bit of time. It working out well though. You will probably have to give it a shot. When I was sending .454-.457 sized lead into the box at 10 yards it key-holed the smaller stuff at half the speed of the .457 lead. The .457 did not shoot much more accurate. Sizing matters. It would have been nice if AEA would have gone with a .452 barrel for the huge selection of readily available molds and swaged slugs.
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I bet they bored the barrel to 11.75 mm or .46 instead of the 11.5 mm of a .452
Buffalo arms has a 46 caliber sizing die for $48
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I bet they bored the barrel to 11.75 mm or .46 instead of the 11.5 mm of a .452
Buffalo arms has a 46 caliber sizing die for $48
It is looking like .463" is going to be the final sealing diameter. I'm tired of pounding lead down the bore.
The next project is tapering the lead into the bore when the reamer gets here.
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Yep, that is 11.75 mm : 0.46259843
There are actually companies that make a .463 mold on request. No idea the prices for them though
http://kal.castpics.net/ (http://kal.castpics.net/)
http://www.brooksmoulds.com/ (http://www.brooksmoulds.com/)
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Accurate molds makes a couple of molds in 460 and in the comments when you order you can change the diameter
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Lee makes their breech loc sizer in 461, 462 and 463 ,it s a costume run so it might take awhile.
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A 300gr bullet traveling close to 900 fps is nothing to sneeze about.
I wander what FPE that gun would get with a EPP/UG
I would rather focus towards a bullet with a big Meplat that would travel in the 950 fps ( I would guess 250-270gr ? ),......that would be lethal :)
FPE is a great number to chase and it makes us all worm and fuzzy ;D ;D ;D but once you are sending a 250gr bullet it will make so much damage already no real need for more weight, at that point I look more to the shape ( big Meplat to me is hunting nirvana ) and speed to get that bullet to really get there and stay flat.
My current .45 slug mold is a 244 grain flat nose with some hollow point pins. I had to look up "meplat" and will do some more reading. My goal is to size a slug to keep the muzzle velocity over 950 FPS and I'm hoping the mold I have will get me those results.
To the other guys that slugged their barrels, I had a devil of a time pushing an NSA .457 slug through the entire bore. I started it in the breech end and used a plastic shaft to get it going. Once the shaft no longer reached the slug I switched to my .25 cal carbon barrel rod and got it the rest of the way. Seems like if I grab the slug by the flats from the rifling I get .455 and .458x if I go on the "high" spots. I'm really shocked the rest of you are getting such high numbers on the slug diameter. My NSA .457 slugs also perform at 500+ FPE.
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A 300gr bullet traveling close to 900 fps is nothing to sneeze about.
I wander what FPE that gun would get with a EPP/UG
I would rather focus towards a bullet with a big Meplat that would travel in the 950 fps ( I would guess 250-270gr ? ),......that would be lethal :)
FPE is a great number to chase and it makes us all worm and fuzzy ;D ;D ;D but once you are sending a 250gr bullet it will make so much damage already no real need for more weight, at that point I look more to the shape ( big Meplat to me is hunting nirvana ) and speed to get that bullet to really get there and stay flat.
My current .45 slug mold is a 244 grain flat nose with some hollow point pins. I had to look up "meplat" and will do some more reading. My goal is to size a slug to keep the muzzle velocity over 950 FPS and I'm hoping the mold I have will get me those results.
To the other guys that slugged their barrels, I had a devil of a time pushing an NSA .457 slug through the entire bore. I started it in the breech end and used a plastic shaft to get it going. Once the shaft no longer reached the slug I switched to my .25 cal carbon barrel rod and got it the rest of the way. Seems like if I grab the slug by the flats from the rifling I get .455 and .458x if I go on the "high" spots. I'm really shocked the rest of you are getting such high numbers on the slug diameter. My NSA .457 slugs also perform at 500+ FPE.
Take a look at the slug under a magnifying glass to see if the high spots are even touching and scraping/sealing in the bore. This seemed odd to me, but the sizing die needed opened up to .462" before the slug would just start to touch and seal in the barrel. It took to .463 to completely seal it. But when I measured the exiting slug it comes out at .4615" If it is too big I'll buy another sizing die and only open it up to that measurement.
As far as pushing the lead down the bore, I had a really hard time pushing "range lead" cast slugs down because of how dense the mixture of lead and tin is. Even with their small diameter. The black powder slugs I bought for size testing are pure lead and glide in relatively easy after cutting the grooves from the steep taper.
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JR, I think I understand what you mean. When pushing the slug down the bore I could see a little bit of light in the rifling grooves, so there must be air going around. Using the mic to carefully only measure the flats I again got .455, but .458x on the high spots, but now I understand that .458x is still not enough. I'm still learning, so I appreciate your posts. NOE has up to .464 on the bushings, but the mold says it drops at .460 diameter. Is that enough? Reaming a barrel is not really something I feel comfortable with and the most precise tool I have is a "drill press" attachment for my dewalt cordless.
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I slugged my challenger 45 today with the hunter supply 205 wc that I powdercoated , it was a tight fit and the slug was pushed the full length of the barrel, it measured .461, accurate and arsenal both will modify their molds to your desired dia ,so that's what I'm going to do , I expect the fps will increase with a good seal and accuracy should improve too ,
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I slugged my challenger 45 today with the hunter supply 205 wc that I powdercoated , it was a tight fit and the slug was pushed the full length of the barrel, it measured .461, accurate and arsenal both will modify their molds to your desired dia ,so that's what I'm going to do , I expect the fps will increase with a good seal and accuracy should improve too ,
An increase in power and accuracy would be very impressive given that I'm already getting tight groups. Does Accurate make hollow point molds?
I cast some slugs today, first time ever, and the good ones dropped at .459 - .461. If the weather is nice tomorrow I'll see how they group as cast. Perhaps now is the time to try powder coating as well! I have an old countertop convection oven that should work.
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DJ what mold are you using to get those 461 slugs.
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DJ what mold are you using to get those 461 slugs.
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/458-460/458-244-fn-ca4-bt/458-244-fn-ca4-rg4-cavity-bt/
Most were .4601-.4605, just one or two came in at .461, but I didn't check all of them either.
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Do I need to resize if I PC up to .462-.463 from .460? Shouldn't the bore size the PC for me?
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With a .257 cal I found that the velocity was the same from 0.001" over groove diameter to 0.001" under....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/257 Condor/.highres/257 Condor Vel vs Diam_zpsuxu0ypm8.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/a/47e225fe-debc-45b3-b424-216ee17f5a07/p/b64cd837-e98a-4cc4-ac36-0d9630d4fde3)
Larger or smaller, the velocity dropped.... from blowby if smaller, and from extra friction if larger.... Trying to force too large a slug into the barrel you will lose velocity, and if much oversize it can even get stuck, or not leave the chamber....
Bob
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DJ what mold are you using to get those 461 slugs.
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/458-460/458-244-fn-ca4-bt/458-244-fn-ca4-rg4-cavity-bt/
Most were .4601-.4605, just one or two came in at .461, but I didn't check all of them either.
I'm not a skilled caster , but seem to remember that you can control the dropped dia. By using more or less heat on your pot and mold can't remember which, maybe someone will chime in,that has more experience.
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DJ what mold are you using to get those 461 slugs.
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/458-460/458-244-fn-ca4-bt/458-244-fn-ca4-rg4-cavity-bt/
Most were .4601-.4605, just one or two came in at .461, but I didn't check all of them either.
I'm not a skilled caster , but seem to remember that you can control the dropped dia. By using more or less heat on your pot and mold can't remember which, maybe someone will chime in,that has more experience.
I am using a wood fired burner with a cast iron pot and ladle. The thermo I have on hand doesn't read much above 500f, so I don't know exact temps. The lead solidifies within a few seconds, so probably not too far above 500f in the pot. At some point I'd like to get an electric pot, but right now I'd have to use a generator to use one and that's not happening. I keep the fire going as hot as I can and flux every once in a while. NOE says keep the mold under 500f, but I don't think I'm getting anywhere close with my setup. I toss any wrinkled bullets back into the pot and only keep the really good shiny ones.
What is the advantage of using a brass mold?
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I try to keep my lee pro at 600 I read somewhere on here that that was a good temp also preheat the mold on a elec hot plate, works good for me , I'm getting a 260gr mold from accurate molds that has 3 driving bands ,the one you have from NOE has one and that concerns me a little ,might not make a bit of difference but 2 or 3 seems like it would center the slug better JMHO
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I try to keep my lee pro at 600 I read somewhere on here that that was a good temp also preheat the mold on a elec hot plate, works good for me , I'm getting a 260gr mold from accurate molds that has 3 driving bands ,the one you have from NOE has one and that concerns me a little ,might not make a bit of difference but 2 or 3 seems like it would center the slug better JMHO
I've been looking at new molds since I bought this one. Accurate molds seems like a decent deal and they are made to order. Manny mentioned that an EPP/UG would be a good option. The nose should fit perfectly with the lands and the driving band should fill out the rifling pretty well. This mold is air rifle specific and I ordered it because I was worried it might not be available for long. I'm considering a .25 slug mold from NOE since there aren't really any other options in .25.
Edit: I'm eyeing this for a .45 mold. http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-295G (http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-295G) nice weight and fits the magazine.
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The ones I cast up today were .460 on the bottom band and .458 at the ogive..
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/458-460/458-244-fn-ca4-bt/458-244-fn-ca4-rg4-cavity-bt/
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The ones I cast up today were .460 on the bottom band and .458 at the ogive..
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/458-460/458-244-fn-ca4-bt/458-244-fn-ca4-rg4-cavity-bt/
Are you using a bottom pour pot? Using a ladle has proven challenging for consistent slugs.
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Yes a bottom pour with a PID controller..
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Ronald I've found that casting with the type of lead they specify to use from the mold is fairly accurate however I've never quenched my pellets/slugs out of the mold with water like a some people do. When casting with a mold that are designed for PB's the size is less than specified when using pure lead rather than wheelweight lead. A good example would be a .359 mold for powder burners drops slugs @ .358 rather than .359 when using pure 99.9% lead. I've never quenched with water out of the mold, water and hot lead just aren't a good combination if you ask me and I've never done ANY quenching.
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The breech end rifling after a slight polishing...
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After hand reaming the lead with a Morse tapered pin reamer, size #8 to match the barrel groove diameter... Notice the marks where the reamer just began to skim the groove at it's depth when I stopped.
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The final (for now) cleaning with 600 grit paper... The job took the lead taper to just over 1/4" long versus an abrupt hump as it was from the factory (first pic).
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After hand reaming the lead with a Morse tapered pin reamer, size #8 to match the barrel groove diameter... Notice the marks where the reamer just began to skim the groove at it's depth when I stopped.
I need to do that too ,where did you source the reamer, and how much?
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The ones I cast up today were .460 on the bottom band and .458 at the ogive..
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/458-460/458-244-fn-ca4-bt/458-244-fn-ca4-rg4-cavity-bt/
Are you using a bottom pour pot? Using a ladle has proven challenging for consistent slugs.
I'm using a bottom pour, and having good results so far , I just started casting about 1 1/2 years ago , I let the pot sit unused for several months and was worried that I would have to empty it and clean the spout at the bottom but after it heated up to 600 , it poured just fine , so lee has a good design IMO.
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The ones I cast up today were .460 on the bottom band and .458 at the ogive..
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/458-460/458-244-fn-ca4-bt/458-244-fn-ca4-rg4-cavity-bt/
Are you using a bottom pour pot? Using a ladle has proven challenging for consistent slugs.
I'm using a bottom pour, and having good results so far , I just started casting about 1 1/2 years ago , I let the pot sit unused for several months and was worried that I would have to empty it and clean the spout at the bottom but after it heated up to 600 , it poured just fine , so lee has a good design IMO.
I'll upgrade eventually, but right now we don't have any exterior outlets and I would have to use a generator. Looks like it would be a lot easier and give more consistent slugs.
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After hand reaming the lead with a Morse tapered pin reamer, size #8 to match the barrel groove diameter... Notice the marks where the reamer just began to skim the groove at it's depth when I stopped.
I need to do that too ,where did you source the reamer, and how much?
It was an eBay purchase for $20.00. The seller has got three more. https://www.ebay.com/itm/333876929574 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/333876929574)
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I'll upgrade eventually, but right now we don't have any exterior outlets and I would have to use a generator. Looks like it would be a lot easier and give more consistent slugs.
To cast my lead I use a Coleman Sportster dual fuel single burner and run it on unleaded gasoline.
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I'll upgrade eventually, but right now we don't have any exterior outlets and I would have to use a generator. Looks like it would be a lot easier and give more consistent slugs.
To cast my lead I use a Coleman Sportster dual fuel single burner and run it on unleaded gasoline.
I already have a good wood burning appliance that works well. If I upgrade to anything it will be electric.
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After hand reaming the lead with a Morse tapered pin reamer, size #8 to match the barrel groove diameter... Notice the marks where the reamer just began to skim the groove at it's depth when I stopped.
I need to do that too ,where did you source the reamer, and how much?
It was an eBay purchase for $20.00. The seller has got three more. https://www.ebay.com/itm/333876929574 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/333876929574)
In machineshop we called that pre reamer, its job is to make a round hole and after that comes the real finishing reamer that size the hole. Reamer has straight flutes or just a degree or two of twist.
Marko
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After hand reaming the lead with a Morse tapered pin reamer, size #8 to match the barrel groove diameter... Notice the marks where the reamer just began to skim the groove at it's depth when I stopped.
I need to do that too ,where did you source the reamer, and how much?
It was an eBay purchase for $20.00. The seller has got three more. https://www.ebay.com/itm/333876929574 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/333876929574)
In machineshop we called that pre reamer, its job is to make a round hole and after that comes the real finishing reamer that size the hole. Reamer has straight flutes or just a degree or two of twist.
Marko
I have a fair amount of years experience as a machinist and fabricator myself. If the machines were available to me to use, I would re-line this barrel instead of messing with cutting the lead taper. A strait reamer would not work out well cutting these existing barrel rifling by hand here. The Morse tapered pin reamer was used for the degree of angle of cut, and the twisted cutting flute design was chosen for ease of cutting and turning the reamer by hand. A strait reamer would have required a detailed, measured, and sturdy setup on a machine, and would have probably left chatter marks cutting by hand. It worked out great for this job. The procedure gained a huge amount of FPS just tapering the lead into the bore on this barrel as well.
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I tried the NOE 458-244-FN-CA4 slugs as cast today and they shoot great! I'm not 100% sure how well they group yet, I always seem to pull one out of three. More practice is needed. I got about the same muzzle energy with either flat nose or HP, 485 FPE. These are basically HP semi-wadcutters and I bet they are devastating on game. The slugs fit in the magazine very well and chamber much easier than the Seneca cast round ball (all of which I turned into slugs) and the NSA slugs. I probably won't go back to buying slugs after this.
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I tried the NOE 458-244-FN-CA4 slugs as cast today and they shoot great! I'm not 100% sure how well they group yet, I always seem to pull one out of three. More practice is needed. I got about the same muzzle energy with either flat nose or HP, 485 FPE. These are basically HP semi-wadcutters and I bet they are devastating on game. The slugs fit in the magazine very well and chamber much easier than the Seneca cast round ball (all of which I turned into slugs) and the NSA slugs. I probably won't go back to buying slugs after this.
The relative low velocity and decent muzzle flip on powerful big bores calls for really good shooting form, your follow through has to really be spot on.
Have a picture of those bullets ?
they sound really nice and the weight is optimal imo
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I tried the NOE 458-244-FN-CA4 slugs as cast today and they shoot great! I'm not 100% sure how well they group yet, I always seem to pull one out of three. More practice is needed. I got about the same muzzle energy with either flat nose or HP, 485 FPE. These are basically HP semi-wadcutters and I bet they are devastating on game. The slugs fit in the magazine very well and chamber much easier than the Seneca cast round ball (all of which I turned into slugs) and the NSA slugs. I probably won't go back to buying slugs after this.
The relative low velocity and decent muzzle flip on powerful big bores calls for really good shooting form, your follow through has to really be spot on. Not to mention a 7lb trigger pull stock, got mine down to 5 1/2 ,and if it's like my 357 it gets better with use.
Have a picture of those bullets ?
they sound really nice and the weight is optimal imo
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The relative low velocity and decent muzzle flip on powerful big bores calls for really good shooting form, your follow through has to really be spot on. Not to mention a 7lb trigger pull stock, got mine down to 5 1/2 ,and if it's like my 357 it gets better with use.
Have a picture of those bullets ?
they sound really nice and the weight is optimal imo
I'll get some nice pics later.
I agree, this thing could use a muzzle brake. The recoil doesn't kick hard or anything, it's just different from a PB. It makes the follow through more difficult and that's where all my problems are. The heavy trigger isn't too bad and it is getting better with use. I think with more time I'll be making 1" or smaller groups at 40+ yards. My wife doesn't like the sound when the slug hits my cast iron backstop, she said it really rings. I need to move it further away.
Can you explain why these slugs are so much easier to chamber despite the larger diameter? I think my cast slugs shoot better than the NSA slugs. I plan on experimenting with lubing the bullets with silicone and PC down the line.
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here you go.
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The relative low velocity and decent muzzle flip on powerful big bores calls for really good shooting form, your follow through has to really be spot on. Not to mention a 7lb trigger pull stock, got mine down to 5 1/2 ,and if it's like my 357 it gets better with use.
Have a picture of those bullets ?
they sound really nice and the weight is optimal imo
I'll get some nice pics later.
I agree, this thing could use a muzzle brake. The recoil doesn't kick hard or anything, it's just different from a PB. It makes the follow through more difficult and that's where all my problems are. The heavy trigger isn't too bad and it is getting better with use. I think with more time I'll be making 1" or smaller groups at 40+ yards. My wife doesn't like the sound when the slug hits my cast iron backstop, she said it really rings. I need to move it further away.
Can you explain why these slugs are so much easier to chamber despite the larger diameter? I think my cast slugs shoot better than the NSA slugs. I plan on experimenting with lubing the bullets with silicone and PC down the line.
When you post a picture we can tell, usually if your driving bands are thinner and less of then the bullet will chamber easier with the minimal contact, that is why I like the EPP/UG design.
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My camera not worthy... So here..
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Nice!
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How did the powder coating turn out for you Ron?
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How did the powder coating turn out for you Ron?
1st coat was good , 2nd turned out uneven and after baking in oven they were kinda blistered looking and they stuck to the tray and damaged when payed loose , I need to improve my process, waiting on a 461 sizing die.
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How did the powder coating turn out for you Ron?
1st coat was good , 2nd turned out uneven and after baking in oven they were kinda blistered looking and they stuck to the tray and damaged when payed loose , I need to improve my process, waiting on a 461 sizing die.
Did you measure after the first coat? I think you probably just need one for a good bore seal.
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How did the powder coating turn out for you Ron?
1st coat was good , 2nd turned out uneven and after baking in oven they were kinda blistered looking and they stuck to the tray and damaged when payed loose , I need to improve my process, waiting on a 461 sizing die.
Did you measure after the first coat? I think you probably just need one for a good bore seal.
didn't measure the 1st batch ,but did on the next and yes 1 coat would have been enough, I need to find a way to keep them upright so the sides don't stick to the mesh tray.
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Silicone mini ice cube tray will keep the bullets upright. Powder coat on your gloves/finger tips before placing the bullets. I use the shake and bake method. Pick-up about .0015 per coat. Not enough to make all my .452 bullet making equipment work with my .457, lol.
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Making NSA .457 HP-DB 220 & 240 grainers' into gas checked slugs that fit these large bored Challenger barrels...
I did it with a long strait punch .125" diameter, tapping the punch into the hollow point with a hammer until satisfied with the resulting reformation to the skirt. Then I ran them through a Lee press with a .457 sizing die that I opened up and polished to .463" i.d.
So far it looks like the harder hit slugs that deforms and resizes both the top and bottom may be more accurate (the slug on the right), as those are the ones actually touching the grooves of the barrel in the front. Whereas the other's are just riding the barrel lands and may not be coming out of the bore square. (I have only had them inside of ten yards and through ballistic gel now; long range testing to come later.)
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I got the 461 sizing die from lee yesterday, gotta go to a family function today so late today I plan to size some of the slugs that I powdercoated and teat over the chrony, I coated some of the 240 NSA slugs too so I'm curious which slugs will give the highest FPS , thinking the ones with the two driving bands will be faster than the NSA slugs with the long bearing surface , will post results later.
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Ok , I got the 461 sizer set up and sized some of the 200 gr HP hunter supply slugs that I powdercoated ,they sized to a true .461 , shot 6 over the chrony and got some fair numbers . 1- 950 , 2-940 , 3 - 933 ,4 - 894, 5- 852 # 6 was a error but probably in the 830 range , so plenty good enough for hunting hogs and deer at 50 - 75 yrds ,I'm going to tear it done one more time to chamfer the lead and j b polish the bore and install a bottle brush to tame that ping, the fun never ends.
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Ok , I got the 461 sizer set up and sized some of the 200 gr HP hunter supply slugs that I powdercoated ,they sized to a true .461 , shot 6 over the chrony and got some fair numbers . 1- 950 , 2-940 , 3 - 933 ,4 - 894, 5- 852 # 6 was a error but probably in the 830 range , so plenty good enough for hunting hogs and deer at 50 - 75 yrds ,I'm going to tear it done one more time to chamfer the lead and j b polish the bore and install a bottle brush to tame that ping, the fun never ends.
Those are really close numbers for the first three shots. Holding over at longer ranges will be a breeze. Since you are pretty handy with a Dremel tool, here's another project that you may want to do... I ported and radiused the sharp corners on the valve body to get better air flow and more speed. The six holes on the barrel are getting venturi porting similar to what you did also.
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Ok , I got the 461 sizer set up and sized some of the 200 gr HP hunter supply slugs that I powdercoated ,they sized to a true .461 , shot 6 over the chrony and got some fair numbers . 1- 950 , 2-940 , 3 - 933 ,4 - 894, 5- 852 # 6 was a error but probably in the 830 range , so plenty good enough for hunting hogs and deer at 50 - 75 yrds ,I'm going to tear it done one more time to chamfer the lead and j b polish the bore and install a bottle brush to tame that ping, the fun never ends.
Those are really close numbers for the first three shots. Holding over at longer ranges will be a breeze. Since you are pretty handy with a Dremel tool, here's another project that you may want to do... I ported and radiused the sharp corners on the valve body to get better air flow and more speed. The six holes on the barrel are getting venturi porting similar to what you did also.
good idea on the porting, I'll give that a try ,I'm also thinking that the heavy poppet return spring could be swapped out for a slightly weaker one and pick up some fps but at the expense of shot count, might even be able to use a higher fill pressure with the weaker spring, these AEA guns are so easy to work on that mods are a breeze.
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JR ,that #8 pin reamer you recommended was out of stock so I ordered this one ,it doesn't have as much twist as the one you used but should work , I'm going to chuck the barrel up in the lathe and the reamer in the tailstock and turn the lathe chuck by hand , I don't trust myself to do it freehand in a vise , I bet those slugs will start down the barrel so much easier that the fps will improve some not to mention less deforming of the soft slug.
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I'm not set up for all this fine detail work you guys are doing on the ports and such. Until I build a workshop is there anyone who is doing mail order tuning work like Will P. does for the Korean air rifles?
When loading my hand cast slugs with a magazine or by hand they don't have a lot of resistance.
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JR ,that #8 pin reamer you recommended was out of stock so I ordered this one ,it doesn't have as much twist as the one you used but should work , I'm going to chuck the barrel up in the lathe and the reamer in the tailstock and turn the lathe chuck by hand , I don't trust myself to do it freehand in a vise , I bet those slugs will start down the barrel so much easier that the fps will improve some not to mention less deforming of the soft slug.
I did all the work caveman machinist style. I ground down the back half of the reamer by hand to clear the breech inside diameter. Because the taper is so shallow it worked out good there. As far as cutting the taper by hand, I wrapped electrical tape on the front and newly ground back shank of the reamer for a pilot and just went for it and it turned out well because the reamer centered itself in the bore this way. Had I use the lathe I may not have had to follow up with as much polishing though.
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JR , guess I'll have to caveman it too, my lathe's tru bore is too small for the barrel, but I'll make do .
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Yesterday I was making some groups with my .45, 15 shots total, and after shooting I noticed I blasted a hole in the back of my cast iron wood stove back stop. The castings are easily 3/16" thick, maybe 1/4", and two layers on the back. What are you guys using for back stops that allow you to recover the spent lead?
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Yesterday I was making some groups with my .45, 15 shots total, and after shooting I noticed I blasted a hole in the back of my cast iron wood stove back stop. The castings are easily 3/16" thick, maybe 1/4", and two layers on the back. What are you guys using for back stops that allow you to recover the spent lead?
This guy makes these heavy duty bullet traps on a daily basis and sells them on eBay. Worth every penny when you just have to empty the pan sitting under the catch tube.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?isRefine=true&_pgn=1&sid=mark_schluender (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?isRefine=true&_pgn=1&sid=mark_schluender)
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Yesterday I was making some groups with my .45, 15 shots total, and after shooting I noticed I blasted a hole in the back of my cast iron wood stove back stop. The castings are easily 3/16" thick, maybe 1/4", and two layers on the back. What are you guys using for back stops that allow you to recover the spent lead?
This guy makes these heavy duty bullet traps on a daily basis and sells them on eBay. Worth every penny when you just have to empty the pan sitting under the catch tube.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?isRefine=true&_pgn=1&sid=mark_schluender (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?isRefine=true&_pgn=1&sid=mark_schluender)
The shipping will kill me for where I live. Perhaps I can find someone local that can make something for me.
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With my 357 Challenger I use one of those $75. 22 rim fire rated bullet traps from air gun Depot. At 30 yards it doesn't even put a dent in it. Your guns twice as powerful as mine though but a piece of steel welded onto the back of it should make it work for you
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deep box, stuffed hard with old clothes wrapped with duct tape...
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The port job on the valve body was worth 40-50 FPS with the modified NSA 240 grain slugs, depending on pressure. I had only gotten 858 as a top speed before, and now it was 908. Aside from porting, the only other thing that I did additionally that would effect power was clean all the factory grease off the hammer weight and spring assembly and give it a shiny polish where the sear rides along the weight and opposite that where there were two small shiny witness marks as evidence of dragging. It has a better sound to the shot as well, partly because I put a 4" piece of bottle brush in the tube to stop the air hammer ping.
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The port job on the valve body was worth 40-50 FPS with the modified NSA 240 grain slugs, depending on pressure. I had only gotten 858 as a top speed before, and now it was 908. Aside from porting, the only other thing that I did additionally that would effect power was clean all the factory grease off the hammer weight and spring assembly and give it a shiny polish where the sear rides along the weight and opposite that where there were two small shiny witness marks as evidence of dragging. It has a better sound to the shot as well, partly because I put a 4" piece of bottle brush in the tube to stop the air hammer ping.
What's the diameter of the bottle brush? I would like to do the same.
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The port job on the valve body was worth 40-50 FPS with the modified NSA 240 grain slugs, depending on pressure. I had only gotten 858 as a top speed before, and now it was 908. Aside from porting, the only other thing that I did additionally that would effect power was clean all the factory grease off the hammer weight and spring assembly and give it a shiny polish where the sear rides along the weight and opposite that where there were two small shiny witness marks as evidence of dragging. It has a better sound to the shot as well, partly because I put a 4" piece of bottle brush in the tube to stop the air hammer ping.
What's the diameter of the bottle brush? I would like to do the same.
I'm not sure of actual diameter. It was a 12" brush about 1/8" larger than the outside of the air tube when I started. To keep as much air space as possible and also utilize the de-pinging effect of the brush, I carefully pulled all but the 4" of bristles from one end, then twisted it back up tight and strait. Then I forked the wire end to just touch the outside edges of the tube and sit against the valve body. (Untwisted 1" back) This keeps the bristles located in the middle of the tube. Otherwise the brush will migrate towards the valve body and could cause havock. Also, make absolutely sure that there are no loose bristles to come apart, as this will create havock.
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I got the lead chamfer finished ,my photo didn't turn out very good ,I found a spring at ace hdwr to replace the poppet return sprig , it was longer so I cut it off with about 1/4 inch sticking above the valve body ,this way I can add washers to adjust tension on the poppet ,also installed a brush depinger (it works) , got it all back together and had to cock the rifle to get the poppet to seal this is with a scba bottle so hand pumpers might not want to swap springs , shot a mag over the chrony first shot was 940fps next 4 were errors ,not sure what's going on there ,think I need a more stable tripod for the chrony ,the blast of air shakes the chrony . Sighted in at 20 yrds , not great group but was trying to keep it stable shooting off a wobbly rest , my accurate mold should be here tmrw.just a heads up you have to get the rod that connects the trigger to the sear just right or the gun will not cock . The shot string was started at 3600 psi
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I got the lead chamfer finished ,my photo didn't turn out very good ,I found a spring at ace hdwr to replace the poppet return sprig , it was longer so I cut it off with about 1/4 inch sticking above the valve body ,this way I can add washers to adjust tension on the poppet ,also installed a brush depinger (it works) , got it all back together and had to cock the rifle to get the poppet to seal this is with a scba bottle so hand pumpers might not want to swap springs , shot a mag over the chrony first shot was 940fps next 4 were errors ,not sure what's going on there ,think I need a more stable tripod for the chrony ,the blast of air shakes the chrony . Sighted in at 20 yrds , not great group but was trying to keep it stable shooting off a wobbly rest , my accurate mold should be here tmrw.just a heads up you have to get the rod that connects the trigger to the sear just right or the gun will not cock .
You have to get it just right to get the safety to work as well. My barrel clamp screws worked themselves loose after 21-ish shots and it scared me near to death. I was getting on target and moving my finger over the trigger when it went off very suddenly. Took me a while to get it just right so the safety engages. Going to put some loctite on all the screws next time I shoot. There is a grub screw looking fastener on the sidelever pivot that likes to back out occasionally.
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Can someone help me decipher this image I got from Bin a few weeks ago? I really want a moderator for my .45 Challenger, but I have no idea what I'm looking at. Bin sent me the picture when I asked him for the shroud cap thread dimensions. Could I send this picture to John Clague or DonnyFL and expect them to know what it is?
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You have 13mm of threads and 15 mm until the shoulder, it has a 16mm groove for an O ring? or at least a space where they cut the threads, and is an M18x1mm thread.
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You have 13mm of threads and 15 mm until the shoulder, it has a 16mm groove for an O ring? or at least a space where they cut the threads, and is an M18x1mm thread.
That can't be right for the .45 shroud. My 1" mic can't fit around the shroud, so this can't be the right image/drawing/dimensions
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Looks like barrel dimensions to me.
And that 16mm groove is for thread relief not for o ring.
Marko
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Looks like barrel dimensions to me.
And that 16mm groove is for thread relief not for o ring.
Marko
That makes more sense. There is a threaded end on the muzzle for the shroud support spacer. I had asked Bin for the shroud dimensions, and this is what he sent.
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Making a adapter for that one could make pretty effective silencer.
Marko
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Making a adapter for that one could make pretty effective silencer.
Marko
I'm hoping to keep the shroud intact and still use a silencer, if that is possible. We got our first PCP last year and I've never shopped for a suppressor before.
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Does the shroud have an endcap ? .........just send the endcap to Neil Clague.
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Does the shroud have an endcap ? .........just send the endcap to Neil Clague.
He won't do anything until I can tell him with 100% certainty what the end cap thread dimensions are, which I cannot. This is why I so rarely buy a newly introduced product.
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The Pellet Shop Promotes Donnyfl stuff for AEA products, you might even be able to buy what you want from there ???
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The Pellet Shop Promotes Donnyfl stuff for AEA products, you might even be able to buy what you want from there ???
I used their contact feature, hopefully they tell me something good.
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Does the shroud have an endcap ? .........just send the endcap to Neil Clague.
He won't do anything until I can tell him with 100% certainty what the end cap thread dimensions are, which I cannot. This is why I so rarely buy a newly introduced product.
But if you send him the endcap he will know what the thread is right ? or you can send him the all shroud too, I did that once for a gun he had no info.
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Does the shroud have an endcap ? .........just send the endcap to Neil Clague.
He won't do anything until I can tell him with 100% certainty what the end cap thread dimensions are, which I cannot. This is why I so rarely buy a newly introduced product.
But if you send him the endcap he will know what the thread is right ? or you can send him the all shroud too, I did that once for a gun he had no info.
I'll ask him if my other lead turns up with nothing. I would rather not send the shroud or cap if I can avoid it, but if that's the only option I'll do it.
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Ho and,....if you get the LDC made by Neil ask him to make you a Reflexed one, so much better even in the looks department.
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Ho and,....if you get the LDC made by Neil ask him to make you a Reflexed one, so much better even in the looks department.
Sure, what will that do differently than a not reflexed one?
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What does the thread measure? Metric can be measured directly across the peaks. A cheap caliper would be accurate enough to know if that was or wasn't correct.
On a 45, it would be a little thin, but there is enough material to make it work. If that drawing is correct, the grove would be .630 ish and the threads .709 ish inches.
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Ho and,....if you get the LDC made by Neil ask him to make you a Reflexed one, so much better even in the looks department.
Sure, what will that do differently than a not reflexed one?
A reflexed LDC slips over the shroud creating and extra chamber and you can go as far back as the end of the airtube ( that is what I usually do ) also making the gun look much better then with an LDC just screwed at the end of the shroud.
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Ho and,....if you get the LDC made by Neil ask him to make you a Reflexed one, so much better even in the looks department.
Sure, what will that do differently than a not reflexed one?
A reflexed LDC slips over the shroud creating and extra chamber and you can go as far back as the end of the airtube ( that is what I usually do ) also making the gun look much better then with an LDC just screwed at the end of the shroud.
Can you post a pic? I'm having a hard time visualizing.
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OK, so here is a picture of my Storm .30 as is,
the LDC is only 6" but it has 4" of reflex,
the 2nd picture is the Storm with the LDC installed.
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OK, so here is a picture of my Storm .30 as is,
the LDC is only 6" but it has 4" of reflex,
the 2nd picture is the Storm with the LDC installed.
The pressure gauge faces the same direction as the muzzle and there's only 3 1/4" between the muzzle and the gauge anyway. The Pellet Shop got back to me and DonnyFl is working on an adapter to fit the shroud, but I could also remove the shroud and use any big bore DonnyFl LDC.
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Yeah I had DonnyFL LDCs and to me look like a soup can at the end of the barrel/shroud.
3.5" is perfect can get a 3" reflex on a Clauge
Neil's LDC are custom, you pick the length, the with, and the reflex if you want.
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Yeah I had DonnyFL LDCs and to me look like a soup can at the end of the barrel/shroud.
3.5" is perfect can get a 3" reflex on a Clauge
Neil's LDC are custom, you pick the length, the with, and the reflex if you want.
If I knew the dimensions I would have Clague make me one, but I do not. I'm going for the largest LDC I can muster, the quieter I can make the muzzle report the more I'll be able to shoot. My wife has a fifteen shot per day limit at the current volume level.
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I was looking at the barrel threads and shroud tube the other day and determined that a purpose built moderator could be made that incorporates both easily enough. With adapters made of the same thread pitch it could screw on the barrel and into the shroud threads.
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I was looking at the barrel threads and shroud tube the other day and determined that a purpose built moderator could be made that incorporates both easily enough. With adapters made of the same thread pitch it could screw on the barrel and into the shroud threads.
DonnyFl is working on an adapter that will fit the LDC to the shroud. The reflexed LDC Manny posted was nice, but I'll probably go with something more standard so I can easily remove it when not shooting.
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I came up with 30mmX 1.0 for the end cap , 32mm OD and 29mm ID for the shroud
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I came up with 30mmX 1.0 for the end cap , 32mm OD and 29mm ID for the shroud
Thank you, John Clague may be able to make an LDC for me based on those numbers.
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Anyone have a # for N Clague ,I think a reflex with about 5 inch over the barrel and 4 inch past would be excellent.
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Anyone have a # for N Clague ,I think a reflex with about 5 inch over the barrel and 4 inch past would be excellent.
http://petersoncorner.com/clague/contact.htm (http://petersoncorner.com/clague/contact.htm)
707-485-8010
Thank you for going first! It will be much easier for him to make one for me since you can give him precise numbers. Apparently I need some good calipers.
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I was looking at the barrel threads and shroud tube the other day and determined that a purpose built moderator could be made that incorporates both easily enough. With adapters made of the same thread pitch it could screw on the barrel and into the shroud threads.
DonnyFl is working on an adapter that will fit the LDC to the shroud. The reflexed LDC Manny posted was nice, but I'll probably go with something more standard so I can easily remove it when not shooting.
A Reflexed LDC is removed just the same as any other LDC, Also Neil makes bigger LDCs too rge one I have for my REX is huge.
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I was looking at the barrel threads and shroud tube the other day and determined that a purpose built moderator could be made that incorporates both easily enough. With adapters made of the same thread pitch it could screw on the barrel and into the shroud threads.
DonnyFl is working on an adapter that will fit the LDC to the shroud. The reflexed LDC Manny posted was nice, but I'll probably go with something more standard so I can easily remove it when not shooting.
A Reflexed LDC is removed just the same as any other LDC, Also Neil makes bigger LDCs too rge one I have for my REX is huge.
Fair I'll have to email Clague again now that I have actual data.
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Have a N Clague on my 357 storm , it works real well and doesn't add much length, by the time you buy a donnyfl ronin + extention ,the cost is about the same but much shorter, that's why I'm leaning toward the N.C., although I already have a 45-50 cal donnyfl ronin so the cost would be just the adapter when it's available, but with a 32inch barrel + 6 inch of ronin ,I think the reflex would look and handle much better.
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I after the above post ,I measured the shroud past the air tube ,a reflex moderator that extends back over the barrel may not be the best option, there's only about 3-1/2 inches to work with and the dust cover would not be removable, so a donnyfl looks to be a better fit .
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I after the above post ,I measured the shroud past the air tube ,a reflex moderator that extends back over the barrel may not be the best option, there's only about 3-1/2 inches to work with and the dust cover would not be removable, so a donnyfl looks to be a better fit .
Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at with the reflexing. Does the Standard Challenger put the dust cap closer to the stock?
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I don't have a standard, but the earlier 24 in barrel model has a shorter tank , I don't have one in front of me right now so can't say if there's more room for a reflex type.
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I after the above post ,I measured the shroud past the air tube ,a reflex moderator that extends back over the barrel may not be the best option, there's only about 3-1/2 inches to work with and the dust cover would not be removable, so a donnyfl looks to be a better fit .
Ahhh that's right, in these rifles the fill unit cover doesn't rotate, 3.5" of reflex is nice I've done some with only one inch.
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I would buy a Niel Clague moderator that does away with these "tensioned" baffles and screws to the existing shroud.
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I would buy a Niel Clague moderator that does away with these "tensioned" baffles and screws to the existing shroud.
I want something that attaches to the existing shroud. DonnyFL is bringing an adapter to market, at least that's what the PelletShop confirmed to me. I may wait until it is available so I know the exact thread dimensions, and then seeing what Clague can do. On the other hand I can order an Emperor or Kami from DonnyFL and run that with a naked barrel until the shroud adapter comes out.
Edit: I only just now found out the Kami is only for the Zeus and the Emperor is out of stock in M18x1. Sadface.
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I would buy a Niel Clague moderator that does away with these "tensioned" baffles and screws to the existing shroud.
I want something that attaches to the existing shroud. DonnyFL is bringing an adapter to market, at least that's what the PelletShop confirmed to me. I may wait until it is available so I know the exact thread dimensions, and then seeing what Clague can do. On the other hand I can order an Emperor or Kami from DonnyFL and run that with a naked barrel until the shroud adapter comes out.
Edit: I only just now found out the Kami is only for the Zeus and the Emperor is out of stock in M18x1. Sadface.
I sent donnyfl a email this morning asking when the challenger 45 adapter will be available, he emailed me back and said he will make me one ,also sent me a invoice , so I ordered it ,I assume this is a one off made on a manual lathe, but not sure. 50.00 + 10.00 shipping
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I would buy a Niel Clague moderator that does away with these "tensioned" baffles and screws to the existing shroud.
I want something that attaches to the existing shroud. DonnyFL is bringing an adapter to market, at least that's what the PelletShop confirmed to me. I may wait until it is available so I know the exact thread dimensions, and then seeing what Clague can do. On the other hand I can order an Emperor or Kami from DonnyFL and run that with a naked barrel until the shroud adapter comes out.
Edit: I only just now found out the Kami is only for the Zeus and the Emperor is out of stock in M18x1. Sadface.
I sent donnyfl a email this morning asking when the challenger 45 adapter will be available, he emailed me back and said he will make me one ,also sent me a invoice , so I ordered it ,I assume this is a one off made on a manual lathe, but not sure. 50.00 + 10.00 shipping
The Pellet shop has Emperors and extensions in stock, so I think I'll go ahead and place that order an send DonnyFL an email. Thanks for the heads up.
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I would buy a Niel Clague moderator that does away with these "tensioned" baffles and screws to the existing shroud.
I want something that attaches to the existing shroud. DonnyFL is bringing an adapter to market, at least that's what the PelletShop confirmed to me. I may wait until it is available so I know the exact thread dimensions, and then seeing what Clague can do. On the other hand I can order an Emperor or Kami from DonnyFL and run that with a naked barrel until the shroud adapter comes out.
Edit: I only just now found out the Kami is only for the Zeus and the Emperor is out of stock in M18x1. Sadface.
I sent donnyfl a email this morning asking when the challenger 45 adapter will be available, he emailed me back and said he will make me one ,also sent me a invoice , so I ordered it ,I assume this is a one off made on a manual lathe, but not sure. 50.00 + 10.00 shipping
Just got my invoice! The emperor and extension are supposed to be here this Saturday, the tracking says NH and I only ordered them on Sunday
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My adapter will be here tomorrow, that was fast, I wonder if donny made it to order or if he has them in stock now , now I can do some 35yrd testing at home.
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I just get an email back from Huma about making a regulator and plenum spacer that slides into the air tube and works on the big tubed Challenger Bullpup 457. From the sounds of it they have something in the works right now but want to verify the measurements they were given.
Has anyone here measured the inside diameter of the air tube?
And, does anyone know if there are different sizes of air tubes on the different caliber models of the Challenger or Bullpup series?
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I just get an email back from Huma about making a regulator and plenum spacer that slides into the air tube and works on the big tubed Challenger Bullpup 457. From the sounds of it they have something in the works right now but want to verify the measurements they were given.
Has anyone here measured the inside diameter of the air tube?
And, does anyone know if there are different sizes of air tubes on the different caliber models of the Challenger or Bullpup series?
I came up with 29.10 mm on my 45 the earlier 357 is smaller because the donnyfl adapter is different, that 29.10mm is at the threads.
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Ignore last post , that's the shroud not the air tube ,,DUH,
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Picked up the emperor and extension from the post office today. What a difference. I would shoot without ear pro if I could tame the ping. Can someone post a pic of how they prepped their bottle brush? A link to whatever you ordered would be great too.
My replacement HPA compressor died today, so it will probably be a couple of weeks until I shoot it again...
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Handpumps, handpumps, handpumps :) :) :) ......never be forced not to shoot :)
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Handpumps, handpumps, handpumps :) :) :) ......never be forced not to shoot :)
Oh, I have a handpump, I just don't want to hand pump up to 250 bar on a 500cc tank. It's 50 pumps, after priming, per magazine on my 460cc 200b Eagle Claw. Toiling for three shots doesn't sound like fun.
I forgot to mention how great the DonnyFL works for taming the recoil. It's like shooting my Eagle Claw, just a bit louder with a ear ringing ping. If not for the ping it's also quiet enough for shooting without ear pro, but maybe not back yard friendly.
Edit: Manny, I have to eat some crow. Just because you brought it up I decided to top it off from the 230b my compressor stopped at to 250b, and it was very minimal. Filling my Stormrider tube from empty is much worse. The Challenger only gets down to 190-200-ish bar after three shots. It only took maybe 25 pumps including priming to go from 230 to 250b.
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;D ;D ;D
I used to handpump my 400 FPE Claw, ....2 shots, top it up, repeat.
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Handpumps, handpumps, handpumps :) :) :) ......never be forced not to shoot :)
Oh, I have a handpump, I just don't want to hand pump up to 250 bar on a 500cc tank. It's 50 pumps, after priming, per magazine on my 460cc 200b Eagle Claw. Toiling for three shots doesn't sound like fun.
I forgot to mention how great the DonnyFL works for taming the recoil. It's like shooting my Eagle Claw, just a bit louder with a ear ringing ping. If not for the ping it's also quiet enough for shooting without ear pro, but maybe not back yard friendly.
Edit: Manny, I have to eat some crow. Just because you brought it up I decided to top it off from the 230b my compressor stopped at to 250b, and it was very minimal. Filling my Stormrider tube from empty is much worse. The Challenger only gets down to 190-200-ish bar after three shots. It only took maybe 25 pumps including priming to go from 230 to 250b.
Last week Bin told me the air tanks on the Challenger Bullpup are 600cc's.
Spacebus, I'll get you a picture later tonight or tomorrow of how I modify the bottle brush.
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Can someone post a pic of how they prepped their bottle brush? A link to whatever you ordered would be great too.
Picked up a baby bottle brush at the dollar store that was wider than my air tube. I cut the twisted wire where the bristles started. Opened my air tube at the fill port end and shoved it inside. Closed the air tube back up and was done.
Picture showing where I cut it
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On this particular brush, I took as much material off the brush as possible (but allow it to work to stop the pinging wave), so there isn't a lot of air space taken up and twisted it back tight. I also fork the legs so the bristles stay towards the center of the tube for plenum space.
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You can also get 2" length of Vinyl tubing just a bit bigger then the tube I.D. make a slit lengthwise so you can push it in,
push it all the way to the back of the tube,...that's how I did my first 2 depinger for the Marauder .25 and my 1st rainstorm.
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I did the bottle brush trick works good , my adapter from donnyfl came Thursday, it's a little loose ,but did tighten up good ,I think I'll powerboat it since it's raw aluminum maybe that will tighten it up some , with the ronin and the 6" extension it's pretty darn quiet but the hair curlers and home made baffle in the extension only lasted for three shots then started to come apart and out the end ,so back to the drawing board on that ,it worked great on the 357 but alot more power on the 45 , as I'm writing this I'm waiting to find a 8 point buck I shot with a PB gonna sit for 30 minutes before I locate him he didn't DRT.
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My wife says it's still loud with the Emperor and extension, but I can tell it's a lot less. The recoil reduction is incredible and I can tell I'm more accurate now.
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My wife says it's still loud with the Emperor and extension, but I can tell it's a lot less. The recoil reduction is incredible and I can tell I'm more accurate now.
so you have the Emperor and the extension, that should be real quiet and long , I still want to make a baffle to make the extension a three chamber unit , after I process this deer I'll head to ace to see what I can improvise, I hope to use the AEA 45 challenger tomorrow to take another buck .
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My wife says it's still loud with the Emperor and extension, but I can tell it's a lot less. The recoil reduction is incredible and I can tell I'm more accurate now.
so you have the Emperor and the extension, that should be real quiet and long , I still want to make a baffle to make the extension a three chamber unit , after I process this deer I'll head to ace to see what I can improvise, I hope to use the AEA 45 challenger tomorrow to take another buck .
It's very long, total length is 16.5, and I take it off to hang the rifle on the wall. I think I lost one of the spring washers at some point, so I leave the OEM shroud empty and the adapter on the end when I hang it on the wall. If you figure out what works inside the extension, I'll probably do something similar. Due to respect for my wife I only shoot the Challenger once a week. Maybe I can get it quiet enough and make a range a bit further from the house and shoot more. If I can figure out a good portable bullet trap, then I can definitely shoot more if I can figure out a decent portable compressor.
The one thing I don't like about the Emperor is that my clamp-on chronograph doesn't fit. I can probably find a longer U-bolt and make it work.
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DJ, when you install your de-pinging device please get an accurate internal measurements of the air tube so we can forward them on to Huma. Thanks.
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DJ, when you install your de-pinging device please get an accurate internal measurements of the air tube so we can forward them on to Huma. Thanks.
If I had an inside micrometer or calipers I could do that. I just have a tape measure with metric on one side and a single 1" outside mic.
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DJ, when you install your de-pinging device please get an accurate internal measurements of the air tube so we can forward them on to Huma. Thanks.
If I had an inside micrometer or calipers I could do that. I just have a tape measure with metric on one side and a single 1" outside mic.
That's no problem, as they have had some dimensions sent to them prior to me contacting them. They just wanted to get other verification from what I understand. I took some dimensions today and will forward them as well. We'll see what happens with Huma making a regulator.
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The recent gains got 240 grain slugs moving 960 fps at 3100-3200 psi...
To go from a stock Challenger pushing 240 grainer's at max 820-840 fps, I ported the valve to make efficient airflow up around the 90° corner, tapered the barrel transfer ports with Dremel tapered bit #117, aligned one barrel t-port with the valve transfer port, installed a heavy 70 grain steel washer .115" thick (equivalent weight to Bin's 4 aluminum washers but 1/3 the height/tension), and polished part of the hammer that drags on the hammer catch sear. The porting and additional spring tension and hammer weight gave the most gains. Aligning a barrel port to the transfer port was worth about 20 fps in efficiency.
This is not very efficient use of air, truly an air hog. I hope we can get a Huma regulator made now. With a 2,500-2,700 psi set point should give three to four consistent high power shots; perfect for deer and hog hunting.
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The recent gains got 240 grain slugs moving 960 fps at 3100-3200 psi...
To go from a stock Challenger pushing 240 grainer's at max 820-840 fps, I ported the valve to make efficient airflow up around the 90° corner, tapered the barrel transfer ports with Dremel tapered bit #117, aligned one barrel t-port with the valve transfer port, installed a heavy 70 grain steel washer .115" thick (equivalent weight to Bin's 4 aluminum washers but 1/3 the height/tension), and polished part of the hammer that drags on the hammer catch sear. The porting and additional spring tension and hammer weight gave the most gains. Aligning a barrel port to the transfer port was worth about 20 fps in efficiency.
This is not very efficient use of air, truly an air hog. I hope we can get a Huma regulator made now. With a 2,500-2,700 psi set point should give three to four consistent high power shots; perfect for deer and hog hunting.
I'm excited about getting the shims. Before messing with my Challenger I'm going to practice porting and modifying my Chiana stuff.
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These guns seem to be getting the same spa treatment that the marauders were getting in the past 8)
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These guns seem to be getting the same spa treatment that the marauders were getting in the past 8)
I'm not familiar. Are you talking about the Benjamin Marauder?
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DJ, when you install your de-pinging device please get an accurate internal measurements of the air tube so we can forward them on to Huma. Thanks.
If I had an inside micrometer or calipers I could do that. I just have a tape measure with metric on one side and a single 1" outside mic.
That's no problem, as they have had some dimensions sent to them prior to me contacting them. They just wanted to get other verification from what I understand. I took some dimensions today and will forward them as well. We'll see what happens with Huma making a regulator.
What did you get for inside tube diameter? I'm looking at bottle brushes, trying to find something in the 2" range, but I found some that are 60mm/2.4" and wasn't sure if that was too big.
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Considering the cost of the suppressor and all the other modifications; Is there a comparable gun that can do what the Challenger bull-pup can do, but ready made?
I've got the bug, but I'm not sure want to spend the time 'fixing' a Challenger...
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These guns seem to be getting the same spa treatment that the marauders were getting in the past 8)
I'm not familiar. Are you talking about the Benjamin Marauder?
Yes them be the ones, springs, ports and depingers, and regs oh my.
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Considering the cost of the suppressor and all the other modifications; Is there a comparable gun that can do what the Challenger bull-pup can do, but ready made?
I've got the bug, but I'm not sure want to spend the time 'fixing' a Challenger...
There's nothing to "fix", mine put out 500 FPE out of the box. All rifles in this power level are going to be loud. There aren't really any other big bore repeaters out there, but you can spend a bit more on an Airforce SS or LSS and get the suppressor built in. Getting a Seneca big bore up to this power will require it to be sent to Will P. or South Africa, and they do not have any kind of shroud or moderator built in. There is also the option to buy a Seneca big bore right from CAP directly, then you don't have to ship it somewhere else first. I also don't know of many other bullpup big bores besides the Hatsan Piledriver. The Texan LSS is going to be more powerful and probably a bit shorter than my Challenger 'Pup with 16" of moderator. I'm looking forward to the "power kit" for my Challenger bringing it more in line with a Texan or CAP upgraded Seneca. It's pretty heavy though, that's the real downside to these AEA rifles, but that's the tradeoff for the lower cost of entry. The Stock itself is actually pretty light, the weight is really in the barrel and tube, so I'm not sure there is much to be done to make it any lighter. Maybe a custom CFRP stock? I also don't think the moderator is necessary for most people. I'm using it because I respect my wife and I really like the recoil reduction.
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JR , I ment to align a barrel port with the transfer port but forgot when I was reassembling the gun , next time I have it apart I'll do that for sure and mark it some how for future reference. I had to send my arsenal 260gr Keith style mold back it arrived at 452 and I stated in the comments 457 , but that was before I slugged the barrel so I guess it worked out after all ,asked to make it 461 this time and talked to the owner so hopefully I'll get the perfect mold for this oddball cal.
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How do you line up the barrel port accurately? I thread my barrel in until the magazine fits well and then tighten the large nut.
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How do you line up the barrel port accurately? I thread my barrel in until the magazine fits well and then tighten the large nut.
I used my endoscope bore camera to get it aligned after tightening it up to the magazine. It can also be easily done with a dental mirror or by marking the hole locations on the breech end and rotating it. I had been tightening it up close to the magazine as well, but realized that it would benefit more from alignment. I had also tested it splitting two holes after this last bit of mods and it lacked quite a few fps.
I could not measure the inside diameter accurately, so I measured the valve body for reference. It is 1.342" or 34.1mm in diameter. The brush I used in 1 5/8" diameter.
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How do you line up the barrel port accurately? I thread my barrel in until the magazine fits well and then tighten the large nut.
I used my endoscope bore camera to get it aligned after tightening it up to the magazine. It can also be easily done with a dental mirror or by marking the hole locations on the breech end and rotating it. I had been tightening it up close to the magazine as well, but realized that it would benefit more from alignment. I had also tested it splitting two holes after this last bit of mods and it lacked quite a few fps.
I could not measure the inside diameter accurately, so I measured the valve body for reference. It is 1.342" or 34.1mm in diameter. The brush I used in 1 5/8" diameter.
I'm going to remove the breech with the barrel attached and just look through the transfer port I noticed that the port wasn't lined up last time I had it apart , should have fixed it right then ,but didn't and forgot later ,on a positive note I got a doe with the 45 challenger this morning neck shot with pass through, posted in hunting gate.
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I'll chronograph before I align the ports. Just have to figure out how to strap the chrono to the Emperor. I'm thinking zip ties, but I'm also thinking that will get old.
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These guns seem to be getting the same spa treatment that the marauders were getting in the past 8)
maybe ,but I sure with my challenger had a marauder trigger.
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All four AEA guns that I have are right down my alley right out of the box, I find no need for more power than what they're capable of and only use my guns for hunting mainly however I do do a little plinking from time to time.
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How do you line up the barrel port accurately? I thread my barrel in until the magazine fits well and then tighten the large nut.
I used my endoscope bore camera to get it aligned after tightening it up to the magazine. It can also be easily done with a dental mirror or by marking the hole locations on the breech end and rotating it. I had been tightening it up close to the magazine as well, but realized that it would benefit more from alignment. I had also tested it splitting two holes after this last bit of mods and it lacked quite a few fps.
I could not measure the inside diameter accurately, so I measured the valve body for reference. It is 1.342" or 34.1mm in diameter. The brush I used in 1 5/8" diameter.
Would a 2" dia bottle brush be too big?
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should be fine
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Thanks, I just ordered one.
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I having a hard time getting molds that are the correct size, ordered a mold from arsenal ,sated in the notes needed to be .457 ,my bad I hadn't slugged the barrel ,figured I'd powdercoat them ,it threw slugs at 453-455 emailed arsenal the guy I talked to said that that was for wheel weight lead ,I don't think pure lead would cast 4-3 thousand smaller ,he said send it back they will bore it bigger , ordered one from accurate , email Tom stated .461 + tolerance, cast some today .456- 455 not good, the 280gr did fit the mag though , will call Monday to try and get some relief, alot of trouble just to get .461 ammo, wish AEA would have just bored the barrel at 452 .
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, alot of trouble just to get .461 ammo, wish AEA would have just bored the barrel at 452 .
I sure hope Crosman reads this before finalizing the barrel for the Gunnar!
You could probably get to .458 or .459 with powder coat. A double layer might get you to .460 or a little bigger.
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I having a hard time getting molds that are the correct size, ordered a mold from arsenal ,sated in the notes needed to be .457 ,my bad I hadn't slugged the barrel ,figured I'd powdercoat them ,it threw slugs at 453-455 emailed arsenal the guy I talked to said that that was for wheel weight lead ,I don't think pure lead would cast 4-3 thousand smaller ,he said send it back they will bore it bigger , ordered one from accurate , email Tom stated .461 + tolerance, cast some today .456- 455 not good, the 280gr did fit the mag though , will call Monday to try and get some relief, alot of trouble just to get .461 ammo, wish AEA would have just bored the barrel at 452 .
Sounds good that they will fix those molds for you. Is there enough room on that rebated boat tail to remove part of it and have the slugs cycle in the magazine? If so, you could have them mill the top of the mold block and have the slug diameter enlarged to .463" to have it "drop" a cast bullet the ideal size in diameter and length.
As far as the barrel internal diameter goes, the factory need to get that right for sure. A .452" internal diameter would be ideal for ammo choices and leave room for polishing and the like. If the factory is using pull through rifling cutters rather than hammer forged barrels then they should be able to sharpen the cutters to bring down the internal diameter.
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I dont know why people buy too small molds that doesnt have any material for calibrating the slugs.
As cast really is not that round.
Marko
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I cast up some NOE 458-244-FN-CA4 BT
Rear band came out .459/.460, front at the ogive was .458.. I then tried to powder coat them and they came out well, I guess since this is all new to me...
I ran the through both NOE sizers .461 and some .462.. Find out if they work, IF AND WHEN, this weather stops for a day or two...
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I having a hard time getting molds that are the correct size, ordered a mold from arsenal ,sated in the notes needed to be .457 ,my bad I hadn't slugged the barrel ,figured I'd powdercoat them ,it threw slugs at 453-455 emailed arsenal the guy I talked to said that that was for wheel weight lead ,I don't think pure lead would cast 4-3 thousand smaller ,he said send it back they will bore it bigger , ordered one from accurate , email Tom stated .461 + tolerance, cast some today .456- 455 not good, the 280gr did fit the mag though , will call Monday to try and get some relief, alot of trouble just to get .461 ammo, wish AEA would have just bored the barrel at 452 .
Sounds good that they will fix those molds for you. Is there enough room on that rebated boat tail to remove part of it and have the slugs cycle in the magazine? If so, you could have them mill the top of the mold block and have the slug diameter enlarged to .463" to have it "drop" a cast bullet the ideal size in diameter and length.
As far as the barrel internal diameter goes, the factory need to get that right for sure. A .452" internal diameter would be ideal for ammo choices and leave room for polishing and the like. If the factory is using pull through rifling cutters rather than hammer forged barrels then they should be able to sharpen the cutters to bring down the internal diameter.
the slugs cycle in the mag with a little to spare, IIRC the oal on the specs was .698
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I cast up some NOE 458-244-FN-CA4 BT
Rear band came out .459/.460, front at the ogive was .458.. I then tried to powder coat them and they came out well, I guess since this is all new to me...
I ran the through both NOE sizers .461 and some .462.. Find out if they work, IF AND WHEN, this weather stops for a day or two...
Mine come out at .460 and .461, and to be honest .457 NSA slugs shoot great, so I think I'm just going to get a .460 sizer and call it a day. If I get a Lee REAL .45 250 grain mold I'll also get a .462 sizer.
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My pack of shims from Bin Tac were in the mailbox today. What do I do with them? I'm hoping my HPA compressor gets here by Monday so I can test with the Challenger.
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Is a FWC accurate out to 50-65 yards? That's the max I'm likely to ever shoot. The slugs I cast now have very little ogive, but that tiny curve might help a lot more than I realize.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EHNM5Mq7NE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EHNM5Mq7NE)
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Thanks! I'll probably install them when my compressor gets here. I'm going to try and use stretchy tape to secure my chronograph to my Emperor. I saw where a guy with a .457 Texan did the same and it worked for him.
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It's raining here , so I decided to zero the scope at 15 yrds in the shop , not good , 5 inch group at 15 , I believe the hunter supply slugs are too small ,I ck'ed them with my cheap digital calipers earlier and they measured 456-457 , so I got the made in USA omega mic and the slugs are 454- 455 mostly 454 so I ordered 3 different weights from NSA at 457 ,that's the largest he makes , I'm thinking 458 would be even better ,we'll. See
Strait walled .457 swaged slugs keyhole and are big groups at the target for me. I smash the NSA slugs down to expand the base a little and then resize them with a .463 die to make them seal and fit better. The groups tighten up that way, but still not moa at 50 yards.
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My pack of shims from Bin Tac were in the mailbox today. What do I do with them? I'm hoping my HPA compressor gets here by Monday so I can test with the Challenger.
I found that because they fit a bit tight once installed and to make removing them easier in testing, it would be a good idea to make them fit a little looser by opening up the inside hole and making the outside smaller also.
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It's raining here , so I decided to zero the scope at 15 yrds in the shop , not good , 5 inch group at 15 , I believe the hunter supply slugs are too small ,I ck'ed them with my cheap digital calipers earlier and they measured 456-457 , so I got the made in USA omega mic and the slugs are 454- 455 mostly 454 so I ordered 3 different weights from NSA at 457 ,that's the largest he makes , I'm thinking 458 would be even better ,we'll. See
Strait walled .457 swaged slugs keyhole and are big groups at the target for me. I smash the NSA slugs down to expand the base a little and then resize them with a .463 die to make them seal and fit better. The groups tighten up that way, but still not moa at 50 yards.
You know, come to think of it I have not shot at 50 yards with the NSA slugs. I just remembered I only zero'd at 25 yards, and they probably weren't tumbling. I find the .460 as cast slugs shoot really well out at 50 yards, even with my novice hands. Not to say I'm a novice at shooting, but a total novice with a big bore air rifle. The cup points from the NOE 244 grain BT mold seem to be a bit more accurate, but more testing is needed. I'm probably going to stick with casting flat point as the pins seem to settle more consistently after the mold is hot. With the exception of NOE pellet molds I will probably stick to pin-less molds in the future.
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Because the shroud tube and baffles don't have much effect on the noise level of the 457, this $25.00 experiment ensued today. It changed both the shot characteristics and noise level. A 6" version that incorporates the existing shroud and an extension will definitely be more effective, but this will work for the time being. The next experiment for accuracy is with a barrel tuner on there, as I'm sure this has a bit of barrel whip to it.
On another note, the single added (steel) weight shim was good for an additional 20 fps, but at the expenses of a large extreme spread, and noticable waisted air pressure. Sized 220 grainers are now pushed around 960 for three shots, with a bell curve and an extreme spread of 5 fps with the stock spring. Versus the 980, 950 930 fps starting at the same 3200psi pressure and weight shim. Three aluminum shims worked nearly the but with heavier cocking effort. Even going with higher fill pressures resulted in the same 20-30 FPS spreads, which not worthy for long range accuracy.
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Because the shroud tube and baffles don't have much effect on the noise level of the 457, this $25.00 experiment ensued today. It changed both the shot characteristics and noise level. A 6" version that incorporates the existing shroud and an extension will definitely be more effective, but this will work for the time being. The next experiment for accuracy is with a barrel tuner on there, as I'm sure this has a bit of barrel whip to it.
On another note, the single added (steel) weight shim was good for an additional 20 fps, but at the expenses of a large extreme spread, and noticable waisted air pressure. Sized 220 grainers are now pushed around 960 for three shots, with a bell curve and an extreme spread of 5 fps with the stock spring. Versus the 980, 950 930 fps starting at the same 3200psi pressure and weight shim. Three aluminum shims worked nearly the but with heavier cocking effort. Even going with higher fill pressures resulted in the same 20-30 FPS spreads, which not worthy for long range accuracy.
Are you saying three aluminum shims is the sweet spot? I might test tomorrow despite the wind.
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Because the shroud tube and baffles don't have much effect on the noise level of the 457, this $25.00 experiment ensued today. It changed both the shot characteristics and noise level. A 6" version that incorporates the existing shroud and an extension will definitely be more effective, but this will work for the time being. The next experiment for accuracy is with a barrel tuner on there, as I'm sure this has a bit of barrel whip to it.
On another note, the single added (steel) weight shim was good for an additional 20 fps, but at the expenses of a large extreme spread, and noticable waisted air pressure. Sized 220 grainers are now pushed around 960 for three shots, with a bell curve and an extreme spread of 5 fps with the stock spring. Versus the 980, 950 930 fps starting at the same 3200psi pressure and weight shim. Three aluminum shims worked nearly the but with heavier cocking effort. Even going with higher fill pressures resulted in the same 20-30 FPS spreads, which not worthy for long range accuracy.
Are you saying three aluminum shims is the sweet spot? I might test tomorrow despite the wind.
No, not for me. I'd rather have a tighter more consistent shot count for three shots with a big bore, as it makes it more accurate at longer ranges. The little additional PFE gain was not worth the loss of accuracy with the descending shot string the shims created. Trying the aluminum shims (with one, two, and three), the speed increased accordingly based on the additional spring tension. But cocking effort went up too. Then I tried a thick steel washer for some tension and weight. The speed was equal to using three aluminum washers in tension and weighed as much as four washers. I'd go this route if you were interested in all out power at the same fill pressure for the first shot.
Also, the shims could use a bit on filing on the inside and outside to make them slightly smaller so they are easier to install and remove while testing. Otherwise it may be necessary to break down the whole gun to get them out.
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Because the shroud tube and baffles don't have much effect on the noise level of the 457, this $25.00 experiment ensued today. It changed both the shot characteristics and noise level. A 6" version that incorporates the existing shroud and an extension will definitely be more effective, but this will work for the time being. The next experiment for accuracy is with a barrel tuner on there, as I'm sure this has a bit of barrel whip to it.
On another note, the single added (steel) weight shim was good for an additional 20 fps, but at the expenses of a large extreme spread, and noticable waisted air pressure. Sized 220 grainers are now pushed around 960 for three shots, with a bell curve and an extreme spread of 5 fps with the stock spring. Versus the 980, 950 930 fps starting at the same 3200psi pressure and weight shim. Three aluminum shims worked nearly the but with heavier cocking effort. Even going with higher fill pressures resulted in the same 20-30 FPS spreads, which not worthy for long range accuracy.
Are you saying three aluminum shims is the sweet spot? I might test tomorrow despite the wind.
No, not for me. I'd rather have a tighter more consistent shot count for three shots with a big bore, as it makes it more accurate at longer ranges. The little additional PFE gain was not worth the loss of accuracy with the descending shot string the shims created. Trying the aluminum shims (with one, two, and three), the speed increased accordingly based on the additional spring tension. But cocking effort went up too. Then I tried a thick steel washer for some tension and weight. The speed was equal to using three aluminum washers in tension and weighed as much as four washers. I'd go this route if you were interested in all out power at the same fill pressure for the first shot.
Also, the shims could use a bit on filing on the inside and outside to make them slightly smaller so they are easier to install and remove while testing. Otherwise it may be necessary to break down the whole gun to get them out.
I did some testing today and I'm not even sure if I want to use the shims. I'm making 500 FPE with the 305 grain NSA slugs and a pretty tight and consistent three shot group starting around 240b.
I also got to test after installing the bottle brush, and wow! All I could do was laugh when the muzzle report and hammer strike were no louder than our .25 Eagle Claw, with 16" of Emperor and extension of course. I think there is a disclaimer on the big bore Emperor listings saying something to the effect of: This isn't going to make your .50 cal "mouse fart quiet". In my case it did, and that ping was louder than the muzzle report without the LDC, in my opinion at least. The impact might have been louder than the muzzle!
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I was out playing with my .45.. Actually I fire lapped the barrel with some of the NOE that I powder coated.. They dropped at .460 powder coated and sized to .462.. Rolled 5 of each 400,600 and 800 grit.. Still need to final polish and the crown probably need some attention.. Don't know if it made a difference yet..
But the sun was setting and I heard the head cow was perturbed off about something.. I seen something moving a coyote walking to outside of the corral.. Still had one fire lapping hollow point chambered.. Fast point and shoot.. Went down instantly..
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Since you recovered the slug I assume you didn't get a pass through.
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I was out playing with my .45.. Actually I fire lapped the barrel with some of the NOE that I powder coated.. They dropped at .460 powder coated and sized to .462.. Rolled 5 of each 400,600 and 800 grit.. Still need to final polish and the crown probably need some attention.. Don't know if it made a difference yet..
But the sun was setting and I heard the head cow was perturbed off about something.. I seen something moving a coyote walking to outside of the corral.. Still had one fire lapping hollow point chambered.. Fast point and shoot.. Went down instantly..
Fine job!Since you recovered the slug I assume you didn't get a pass through.
I'm wondering about that myself. With my ballistics gel testing, I'd think it probably went beyond the 'yote and into the mud. That is, unless the slug was traveling the full length of the body and at low power. I need two long Clear Ballistics gel blocks stacked end to end to stop the 240 gain slugs from passing through at 10 yards.
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I shot my 357 terminator today with jsb 81 gr pellets at 35 yrds 3 shots same hole, but with my 45 challenger I get 1-1/2 to 2 inch groups . You would think AEA could make barrels for the 45 as good as the ones for the terminator, the semi has a 19 inch barrel and the 45 a 30 inch ,with powder burners the longer barrels usually produce better accuracy, I'm not finished improving the 45 yet still waiting on the correct size molds , might cut 1 inch of barrel off to get a better crown ,we'll see .
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Angled facing me.. Went out from the hind quarters dirt pile behind hi.. About 2" in the mound..
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A long barrel can increase accuracy, but in an airgun it can also make shooting more challenging. Any flaw in your technique will be amplified when shooting from a 30" barrel. There is a lot more "dwell time" in an air rifle barrel than a PB barrel. I'm capable of making 1" groups at 50 yards with my .45, and I'm perfectly happy with that seeing as I'm not an expert big bore air rifle marksman and this 30" barrel makes things harder. On a day without wind I can make one ragged hole with my Eagle Claw using a tripod, but it has a 20" barrel. I'm really interested in getting a HP Max .357 next year and finding a way to make a 18" barrel, it makes 150 FPE with the factory 10" barrel! Even if there are no long barrels I'll probably still get one, it is probably wicked easy to shoot with that super short barrel.
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150 FPE is where you want a .357 shooting JSB pellets or light bullets
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150 FPE is where you want a .357 shooting JSB pellets or light bullets
NOE makes a pellet mold in the same weight range as the JSB pellets, which is why I'm looking at the HP Max.
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150 FPE is where you want a .357 shooting JSB pellets or light bullets
NOE makes a pellet mold in the same weight range as the JSB pellets, which is why I'm looking at the HP Max.
Yeah that sure would be a sweet .357, packable and short bush gun,....check out the molds for EPP/UG in .357 same weight as the pellets but great hunting round
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NOE makes a pellet mold in the same weight range as the JSB pellets, which is why I'm looking at the HP Max.
I have a NOE slug mold in that weight and will probably be casting some in the very near future. Need to get things ready for family on Thursday, and then I should have time for stuff like this. They drop around 0.360 to 0.359 and I normally size to 0.357, 84gr to about 88gr depending on the point you choose.
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I finally got my 461 -280gr mold back from accurate molds, I cast some yesterday, they dropped at .460 dia and 279 grs ,haven't shot them over the chrony ,but the accuracy is the best I've seen so far 3 touching at 35yrds ,didn't get any pics ,going to hunt with it tomorrow morning, the challenger is finally coming together, having the correct ammo sure helps ,461 would be even better so later I'll try casting at 750 degrees and see if I can get 461.but I'm pleased with the results so far.
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The 260gr .461 mold that I sent back to accurate molds came back yesterday and I cast some today they dropped at 460 with temp at 750 degrees ,guess that's gonna have to do .ran them Thru the 461 sizer anyway , tomorrow I'll shoot a mag over the chrony and then shootsome groups at 35 yrds , this is a flat nose design with two driving bands , hopefully they will group good .
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The 260gr .461 mold that I sent back to accurate molds came back yesterday and I cast some today they dropped at 460 with temp at 750 degrees ,guess that's gonna have to do .ran them Thru the 461 sizer anyway , tomorrow I'll shoot a mag over the chrony and then shootsome groups at 35 yrds , this is a flat nose design with two driving bands , hopefully they will group good .
A few days ago I tried sizing slugs from the NOE 458-244 down to .458 and .457 and found best results with the .458, but the swaged 457 NSA slugs still give me the highest muzzle energy.
In fact I'm having a bit of a conundrum.
In my other two PCP's, they make the same muzzle energy regardless of projectile weight and length. Why isn't my Challenger like that?
Any cast slug I make, regardless of weight, is hanging around 450-455 FPE, definitely respectable and I'm not complaining. On the other hand swaged NSA slugs at .457" diameter make 500 FPE regardless of weight.
The swaged NSA slugs have a huge bearing surface length, probably four times that of the NOE cast slugs. I have a theory that the longer BSL is simulating a longer barrel since the bore is still sealed even if part of the BSL is out of the bore. Initially I can't imagine a few tenth's of an inch in length can matter that much, but seems it does.
For what it's worth I'm lubricating my slugs with silicone grease, and NSA told me in a FB message they use silicone lube, but did not specify oil, weight, etc.
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Different alloy and different friction coefficient. Nothing magical about that.
Try different hardness and you'll see what happens.
Marko
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Different alloy and different friction coefficient. Nothing magical about that.
Try different hardness and you'll see what happens.
Marko
Same alloy for both swaged and cast slug, pure soft lead (I get my lead from Rotometals). The Swaged slug has far more bore friction than the cast slug as well, yet yields higher MV numbers.
Some cursory research into powder guns says that a longer BSL increases chamber pressures, so that might be why I'm getting higher ME with the swaged slugs.
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The 260gr .461 mold that I sent back to accurate molds came back yesterday and I cast some today they dropped at 460 with temp at 750 degrees ,guess that's gonna have to do .ran them Thru the 461 sizer anyway , tomorrow I'll shoot a mag over the chrony and then shootsome groups at 35 yrds , this is a flat nose design with two driving bands , hopefully they will group good .r
the .461 260gr mold was from Aresnal not Accurate, brain farts happen .
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Had a mishap while testing the new slugs today , on the 2nd shot I blew the donny fl off the shroud, it landed about 15 feet away, was able to find 2 baffles and the spacer, the adapter I got from DFL was a proto type I think , bare aluminum instead of anodized, it was alittle loose but seeded to tighten up ok , but obviously not , so I'll powdercoat it twice and make a new air stripper to take the place of the baffles as they were damaged, the tinkering never ends.
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I used purple Loctite on my shroud adapter and snugged it down as tight as I felt comfortable. So far it has stayed put and I can easily twist off the Emperor+ and store it in the case next to the rifle.
I asked DonnyFl about the looseness, and almost sent the adapter back to see what could be done. Before I went to ship the adapter I checked the shroud cap fitment and it's no different. Didn't seem worth it to me to send it back after seeing that.
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"I found that because they fit a bit tight once installed and to make removing them easier in testing, it would be a good idea to make them fit a little looser by opening up the inside hole and making the outside smaller also."
I know this reply is to a post several months old, but does anyone know the OD, ID and thickness of the Bin Tac washers used on the AEA Challenger 45 Bullpup?
Thanks,
Smitty
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"I found that because they fit a bit tight once installed and to make removing them easier in testing, it would be a good idea to make them fit a little looser by opening up the inside hole and making the outside smaller also."
I know this reply is to a post several months old, but does anyone know the OD, ID and thickness of the Bin Tac washers used on the AEA Challenger 45 Bullpup?
Thanks,
Smitty
I made a washer out of a steel for additional hammer weight and only a little additional spring pressure. My washer is .835" o.d. by .560" i.d. and .118" thick. It weighs 67.3 grains, nearly the same as four of the AEA aluminum washers. AEA washers are only a few thousandths larger and .080" thick each. The slightly smaller dimensions were made for clearance for easier removal because the aluminum washers were a tight fit and required complete disassembly to remove. I also found that the stock configuration from the factory produced more consistent and tighter shot string. So after various testing of the AEA washers and my steel washer they are not currently installed.