GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Marc on September 27, 2021, 11:01:00 PM
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Has anyone used the Tune in a Tube product on springers, and has it worked out or not?
Thanks!
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Oh this will get good. I'm going to go get popcorn and watch this unfold.
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Air Venturi Tune-in-a-Tube is a bandaid at best. You want a for real tune with spring done right, custom guide and top hat, full boat trigger polished and adjusted, talk to John in PA or Motorhead and let them work their magic on whatever rifle it is you want tuned.
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"Worked out" depends on what you are trying to achieve:
I have done my own style of lube tuning, using a teaspoon full of thick molly grease, packed in around the spring guide via the cocking slot, after removing only the stock. This removed the spring buzz from a Slavia 634 and HW50. It also made the HW50 less jumpy, without costing any power.
I am sure that the pellet velocity varies all over the map, as the grease heats up from shooting and with ambient temperature. That will be the chief objection against tune in a tube. It is an amateur measure that can be undone when you have time to install a properly fit spring guide, and the correct amount of approved lubricant...
So, it is possible that smoothing out your springer with grease may make the velocity drift enough to shoot higher or lower, to the point that you regret doing it. I think this matters more, the further you shoot.
If your springer shoots rough, buzzy and jumpy, and does not shoot very consistently on target, then you are not going to lose much by trying tune in a tube.
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I haven't used tune in a tube, but have greased a slot or two...
Short term... Yes, it'll work to reduce twang and help smooth things out. You'll want to learn how to properly disassemble your springer and have extra piston seals handy. When the grease migrates ahead of the piston seal, you'll get detonation (it always seems to). This reduces piston seal life. The gun will also become (more) temperature sensitive.
Instead of a guide fitted to the spring, tune in a tube (grease) is used to dampen spring vibrations. It does work to a degree, but there are drawbacks. A full kit would be better, a pro tune is probably best. The choice is ultimately yours. If it's a cheap springer with piston seals readily available... Your springer, your choice.
I don't have any popcorn. Also, I'm not a professional. No piston seals were harmed in the writing of this post.
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Nuf said - won't mess with it.
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Depending on what you have, I'd disassemble and do it right. Otherwise you're squirting grease into an area that you can't fully evaluate because you can't see it, and mixing it with other factory grease that is of unknown quantity, quality, and condition.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYtfDit4QSQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYtfDit4QSQ)
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I wonder how thick the tune in a tube is in comparison to other greases. Similar viscosity of open gear grease or a bit thinner?
The piston seal won't instantly vaporize with grease on the spring. It may take 1,500-4,000+ shots for seal to give out. I had a springer with a rough (dry) cocking stroke and a very poor fitting guide. To get a proper guide made up would have cost more than the gun. I just greased things up a bit and the gun became more pleasant to shoot. When the piston seal goes, I'll replace it and grease things up again. I'll probably add a pop bottle sleeve to the piston, heat shrink tubing to size up the guide and use high content (60+%) moly grease instead of the cheap grease "with moly" I used initially. Piston seals are cheap, if you have a spring compressor and some time to disassemble, clean/degrease, resize seal and reassemble it's fairly easy.
Oddly enough, my HW95 is a bit twangy and doesn't bother me at all. But that cheap springer drove me nuts. Synthetic stock may have made a difference.
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Zack,
Buy some and compare: https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-venturi-tune-in-a-tube-airgun-lubricant?a=7927 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-venturi-tune-in-a-tube-airgun-lubricant?a=7927)
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Nuf said - won't mess with it.
Wise decision...lol. I freely admit I'm not the brightest crayon in the box most days, but if I can tear down a springer, tweak it and put it all back together again and do all that based on solid advice from shooters here with 10, 12, 15+ years experience, so can you. Just go for it :)
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Air Venturi Tune-in-a-Tube is a bandaid at best. You want a for real tune with spring done right, custom guide and top hat, full boat trigger polished and adjusted, talk to John in PA or Motorhead and let them work their magic on whatever rifle it is you want tuned.
All of the above tuning will cost you $200+ (including shipping).
For $200-$300 you can buy a PCP which will outshoot the "tuned" springer.
And yes, you will need a $35-$40 pump to fill the above PCP.
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Air Venturi Tune-in-a-Tube is a bandaid at best. You want a for real tune with spring done right, custom guide and top hat, full boat trigger polished and adjusted, talk to John in PA or Motorhead and let them work their magic on whatever rifle it is you want tuned.
All of the above tuning will cost you $200+ (including shipping).
For $200-$300 you can buy a PCP which will outshoot the "tuned" springer.
And yes, you will need a $35-$40 pump to fill the above PCP.
FWIW, he already owns a Woodswalker PCP pistol and a hand pump. He's also one of those shooters who also enjoys shooting springers and already has a good idea what a tune from a pro tuner will cost should he decide to...lol.
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My HW50 has a lot of twang and vibration when I received it. Using thick molly grease I packed it around the spring guide via the cocking slot, after removing only the stock. This removed the twang and vibration after a couple dozen pellets and nothing else has been needed on my HW50.
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Not recommending this but us d it once in a pinch. Should not harm anything ,
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Super-Lube-3-oz-Tube-Synthetic-Grease-with-Syncolon-PTFE-21030/202932687 (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Super-Lube-3-oz-Tube-Synthetic-Grease-with-Syncolon-PTFE-21030/202932687)
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Tuners of yore used "black tar" on their springs to damp vibration. This is open gear lubricant, if you want a cheap source.
Grease has viscosity (thickness) and stickiness. Some greases migrate and others tend to stay put. A grease that would help smooth a springer would stay near the spring guide, else it will start to twang again. Also, if the grease migrated to the region where the piston seal sweeps, it will start burning it via compression ignition.
While many recoil in horror at the word, dieseling that increases pellet velocity by only 20 FPS and is consistent does not release enough energy to do significant harm. Else, it would be imperative to open every second Weihrauch and strip the factory grease, because you can see smoke in the barrel after every shot. And yes, some on this forum do exactly that, before they even shoot the gun - tear it down, deburr it and lube it properly. A bit like taking your new Porsch home on a flatbed, then rebuilding the engine and changing the oil, before driving it...
That said, if your new Porsche engine knocks on high octane fuel, it needs attention to prevent expensive damage. Ditto for your springer. If it is loud, rough and spits flame on firing, either your lube job is very wrong, or the factory did something silly. This can happen if you oil the barrel or cocking arm pivots, and excess oil runs down into the compression tube via the cocking slot - regardless of what special grease you have around the spring...
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Ok I'm done with my popcorn. First off I've never used "Tune in a tube" and have no idea of its chemical properties are. I can tell you slot tuning or taking the gun apart and lube tuning with moly paste or tar (open gear grease) has worked for some and not for others. It is kind of a temporary fix that can lead to a few issues that has been well pointed out by several people here.
Most thick greases other Krytox are temperature sensitive. They stiffen in cold weather and thin in hot weather. This will change your POI and zero. When shooting continously friction and the heat of compression can thin thick greases from the time you started and cause shifting POI.
As Subs pointed out, lubes can and will migrate. Even behind the piston seal it's a violent place inside a springer, parts are flying and bouncing around and even the air pressure changes drastically when the gun is shot. So lube will be slung everywhere. Piston seals are tapered to seal best going forward under pressure. They don't seal well going backwards so it only takes a little too much lube to overload the seal and get in front of it. Especially if you cock the gun quickly which can create a slight vacuum in compression chamber and pull in fumes and grease from the spring chamber. Lube and it's fumes in front of the seal will burn from the heat of compression. This is called dieseling. When it's really excessive and violent its called detonation. A little dieseling is normal, a lot is not. Yes new Weihrauchs smoke and diesel a bit when new as many new springers do. It can take a short time or a long time to clear up. Sometimes it never clears up and the seals burn through. There's been an unfortunate rash of that lately. Weihrauch QC has been poor lately.
In any event springers are best run with very little lube and spring vibrations dampened with various methods of mechanical control like better fitting guides and properly sized piston sleeves. This can be done at home or professionally depending on one's abilities and budget. With a slot tune or lube tune the excess lube and gas off inevitably finds its way into the compression chamber and can cause excessive dieseling and possibly detonation. Here's a few pictures to give you an idea of the long-term effects. Note this was a "tuned gun" when my friend got it and after a few years of service it met a premature demise. You can see the piston seal is burnt through and one end of the spring is completely bent and collapsed from dieseling and detonation. Life is already hard on these parts when perfectly installed and lubed. Adding extra lube to deaden vibration is literally adding fuel to the fire. It might work for a while but there's a good chance you're gonna have to replace some parts sooner than if you left it alone. Granted those parts would likely be changed in real tune anyway, so if you're really not happy with the buzz you got nothing to lose by trying a slot tune.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
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I have started my springer tuning adventure last year when I purchased several Diana springers from the Umarex sale.
I sold all of myspringers now.
The Diana springers were definitely nice, but still much louder, rougher and less accurate than all my PCPs or HPA guns (some of them cost less than half that the Diana rifles sell for).
I still have the C clamp and the Honda Moly paste I used for them.
At least I know how to open a springer and lube it, change seals, etc.
I have no intention to own a springer anymore.
On the other hand springers are much much more reliable than every other air gun platform.
They should work for many thousand shots with no maintenance.
A good springer (like Diana) with proper maintenance (changing springs, breech and piston seals) should last at least 100K shots.
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To add to what Ron said: The cup shaped piston seal effectively wipes lube forwards into the compression chamber; and tends to lift off and slide over lube on the cocking stroke. The seal works like a circular squeegee in that regard, "ratcheting" lube forwards.
Now, there must be lube between metal piston and compression chamber, so limiting combustion is something that needs to be managed; if it can't be eliminated. One "surefire" way to eliminate combustion is to replace the grease with non-combustible lube, such as Teflon based Krytox.
As a counterpoint, if burning lube would kill a springer, then we would not have any springers today. They all started with oil soaked leather seals. Many of those airguns are still going strong today, despite dieseling on every shot. If the brain trust determined that dieseling was unacceptable, then the springer species would have died out, before the advent of synthetic seals.
I recognize that oil soaked leather seals may be more robust to dieseling than synthetic rubber. For one thing, oiled leather is cooled by the evaporation of some of the oil. The leather acts as a wick to control the release of oil. There is not enough air to burn the whole seal and its oil with one shot.
These mechanisms are absent with synthetic seals, made from materials that probably melt at a temperature close to that reached during normal adiabatic compression. It is just that their exposure is so short, there is not enough time, nor the flow to cause melting. That said, if a synthetic seal leaks (at a crack, for example), the resultant hot air flow through the leak path will melt and enlarge it very quickly.
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Ok I'm done with my popcorn. First off I've never used "Tune in a tube" and have no idea of its chemical properties are. I can tell you slot tuning or taking the gun apart and lube tuning with moly paste or tar (open gear grease) has worked for some and not for others. It is kind of a temporary fix that can lead to a few issues that has been well pointed out by several people here.
Most thick greases other Krytox are temperature sensitive. They stiffen in cold weather and thin in hot weather. This will change your POI and zero. When shooting continously friction and the heat of compression can thin thick greases from the time you started and cause shifting POI.
As Subs pointed out, lubes can and will migrate. Even behind the piston seal it's a violent place inside a springer, parts are flying and bouncing around and even the air pressure changes drastically when the gun is shot. So lube will be slung everywhere. Piston seals are tapered to seal best going forward under pressure. They don't seal well going backwards so it only takes a little too much lube to overload the seal and get in front of it. Especially if you cock the gun quickly which can create a slight vacuum in compression chamber and pull in fumes and grease from the spring chamber. Lube and it's fumes in front of the seal will burn from the heat of compression. This is called dieseling. When it's really excessive and violent its called detonation. A little dieseling is normal, a lot is not. Yes new Weihrauchs smoke and diesel a bit when new as many new springers do. It can take a short time or a long time to clear up. Sometimes it never clears up and the seals burn through. There's been an unfortunate rash of that lately. Weihrauch QC has been poor lately.
In any event springers are best run with very little lube and spring vibrations dampened with various methods of mechanical control like better fitting guides and properly sized piston sleeves. This can be done at home or professionally depending on one's abilities and budget. With a slot tune or lube tune the excess lube and gas off inevitably finds its way into the compression chamber and can cause excessive dieseling and possibly detonation. Here's a few pictures to give you an idea of the long-term effects. Note this was a "tuned gun" when my friend got it and after a few years of service it met a premature demise. You can see the piston seal is burnt through and one end of the spring is completely bent and collapsed from dieseling and detonation. Life is already hard on these parts when perfectly installed and lubed. Adding extra lube to deaden vibration is literally adding fuel to the fire. It might work for a while but there's a good chance you're gonna have to replace some parts sooner than if you left it alone. Granted those parts would likely be changed in real tune anyway, so if you're really not happy with the buzz you got nothing to lose by trying a slot tune.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
To add to what Ron said: The cup shaped piston seal effectively wipes lube forwards into the compression chamber; and tends to lift off and slide over lube on the cocking stroke. The seal works like a circular squeegee in that regard, "ratcheting" lube forwards.
Now, there must be lube between metal piston and compression chamber, so limiting combustion is something that needs to be managed; if it can't be eliminated. One "surefire" way to eliminate combustion is to replace the grease with non-combustible lube, such as Teflon based Krytox.
As a counterpoint, if burning lube would kill a springer, then we would not have any springers today. They all started with oil soaked leather seals. Many of those airguns are still going strong today, despite dieseling on every shot. If the brain trust determined that dieseling was unacceptable, then the springer species would have died out, before the advent of synthetic seals.
I recognize that oil soaked leather seals may be more robust to dieseling than synthetic rubber. For one thing, oiled leather is cooled by the evaporation of some of the oil. The leather acts as a wick to control the release of oil. There is not enough air to burn the whole seal and its oil with one shot.
These mechanisms are absent with synthetic seals, made from materials that probably melt at a temperature close to that reached during normal adiabatic compression. It is just that their exposure is so short, there is not enough time, nor the flow to cause melting. That said, if a synthetic seal leaks (at a crack, for example), the resultant hot air flow through the leak path will melt and enlarge it very quickly.
^^^^ Pretty much the quite long winded version of what I said up at the beginning of this thread....lol
Air Venturi Tune-in-a-Tube is a bandaid at best. You want a for real tune with spring done right, custom guide and top hat, full boat trigger polished and adjusted, talk to John in PA or Motorhead and let them work their magic on whatever rifle it is you want tuned.
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Disclaimer: Never used this specific product.
My understanding is that Tune-in@tube is similar to, if not exactly the same, as Almagard 3752. Which I use on the piston instead of moly or other greases, and it seems to work well with no detonation or migration. Agree that a full tune is the best way to address ‘twang’ and consistency, but some people aren’t able or just don’t want to tear their gun apart. So this is a simple way for those people to tame the twang. Similar stuff has been around forever, Beeman spring gel, Maccari tar or velocity tar, etc., but with this you get an easy way to apply it without tearing the gun down.
So, yeah, not optimal, not the solution for twang that many of us would pursue, but not likely to cause permanent damage and might help reduce twang. I’d rely some on the 7 positive reviews for the product at the pyramid site. Just be aware that it is treating a symptom and not the cause of the twang.
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Thanks Jon
ALMAGARD 3752 grease demo videos below.
Rethinking a springer system that includes a spring guide, how does grease that is on the spring get onto the compression tube ID? It would have to splash. This Almagard grease is very sticky and splash resistant - see the mousetrap splash testing video below.
I can see grease applied to the rear of the piston OD spreading to where the seal can start sweeping it into the high pressure/temperature space. But when applied to the spring ID, and even OD, the grease can only reach the comp tube if the spring is very kinked, or the grease splashes, or its oil component runs.
Thanks to Jon's input I see the risk of using an appropriate grease to damp spring vibration, causing dieseling, as minimized.
Sure, the objection stands that POI swill shift with ambient/operating temperature. But the idea that you are just looking to destroy your springer if you use tune-in-a-tube on the spring seems rendered moot.
Because I have so many springers, I simply don't shoot the ones that have irritating spring buzz. So, the idea that by damping that out with a lube tune, I have destroyed the utility, is also moot. There is no utility in a springer one has, but never shoots. Perhaps it is time to lube tune my R9 - the harshest spring buzzer I have. Which is odd because the smoothest springers I have (out of the box) are an R7 and an HW95.
The HW50 that I lubed tuned arrived at the same time as the HW95. Both of them surprised me, but for opposite reasons. While in hand, I was motivated to smooth out the disappoint buzzy HW50. Having done this successfully with a CZ 634, I just repeated it with the HW50, with a similar result - just took away the spring buzz, but in the case of the HW50, removed the up and to the side muzzle jump that the HW95 did not have.
If Pyramyd Air is selling this red grease, then it is probably better than the molly CV joint grease I happened to have on hand...
https://youtu.be/qtGMDFksf64
https://youtu.be/6RzuW954fno
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What's funny to me is you look up high% moly paste and it's seems easy to get everywhere but in the u.s.a. go figure we got it seems good, right?
For the spring loctite makes a 65% so your think loctite good ol American made company and should find it where loctite stuff is sold , nope if you were in India, Netherlands, Russia,,ect you can LOCTITE LB 8012 contains 65% molybdenum disulfide for maximum lubricity
And it ain't 20+$ for a 2 oz tube .lol...
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What's funny to me is you look up high% moly paste and it's seems easy to get everywhere but in the u.s.a. go figure we got it seems good, right?
For the spring loctite makes a 65% so your think loctite good ol American made company and should find it where loctite stuff is sold , nope if you were in India, Netherlands, Russia,,ect you can LOCTITE LB 8012 contains 65% molybdenum disulfide for maximum lubricity
And it ain't 20+$ for a 2 oz tube .lol...
Shouldn’t be hard to get, and half the price you describe. It can be had in a 2 oz. can or even a syringe. I get it in the can from Amazon at $9 & change but it can be had at Sentry & Midway and a dozen other suppliers: https://sentrytactical.com/sentry-hi-slip-grease/
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What's funny to me is you look up high% moly paste and it's seems easy to get everywhere but in the u.s.a. go figure we got it seems good, right?
For the spring loctite makes a 65% so your think loctite good ol American made company and should find it where loctite stuff is sold , nope if you were in India, Netherlands, Russia,,ect you can LOCTITE LB 8012 contains 65% molybdenum disulfide for maximum lubricity
And it ain't 20+$ for a 2 oz tube .lol...
Shouldn’t be hard to get, and half the price you describe. It can be had in a 2 oz. can or even a syringe. I get it in the can from Amazon at $9 & change but it can be had at Sentry & Midway and a dozen other suppliers: https://sentrytactical.com/sentry-hi-slip-grease/
Guess I should of put it to get local. Like auto parts, h.w stores, industrial supply, around here you walk in and ask them and get " duhaa, haa duaa ,we ain't got nothing like that we just use this , and point to a tube of axil grease. or plain silver neversized lol.. heck I went to motorcycle shops for that stuff you see used here and get no we don't have that here. Then you think what are you doing to bikes guys have you fix that call for it's use? Makes you wonder
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Thanks Jon
ALMAGARD 3752 grease demo videos below.
Rethinking a springer system that includes a spring guide, how does grease that is on the spring get onto the compression tube ID? It would have to splash. This Almagard grease is very sticky and splash resistant - see the mousetrap splash testing video below.
I can see grease applied to the rear of the piston OD spreading to where the seal can start sweeping it into the high pressure/temperature space. But when applied to the spring ID, and even OD, the grease can only reach the comp tube if the spring is very kinked, or the grease splashes, or its oil component runs.
Thanks to Jon's input I see the risk of using an appropriate grease to damp spring vibration, causing dieseling, as minimized.
Sure, the objection stands that POI swill shift with ambient/operating temperature. But the idea that you are just looking to destroy your springer if you use tune-in-a-tube on the spring seems rendered moot.
Because I have so many springers, I simply don't shoot the ones that have irritating spring buzz. So, the idea that by damping that out with a lube tune, I have destroyed the utility, is also moot. There is no utility in a springer one has, but never shoots. Perhaps it is time to lube tune my R9 - the harshest spring buzzer I have. Which is odd because the smoothest springers I have (out of the box) are an R7 and an HW95.
The HW50 that I lubed tuned arrived at the same time as the HW95. Both of them surprised me, but for opposite reasons. While in hand, I was motivated to smooth out the disappoint buzzy HW50. Having done this successfully with a CZ 634, I just repeated it with the HW50, with a similar result - just took away the spring buzz, but in the case of the HW50, removed the up and to the side muzzle jump that the HW95 did not have.
If Pyramyd Air is selling this red grease, then it is probably better than the molly CV joint grease I happened to have on hand...
https://youtu.be/qtGMDFksf64
https://youtu.be/6RzuW954fno
I just ordered a sleeve of the Almagard 3752 and gonna give it a try on a full disassembly and relube. My 20 cal R9 still has more twang in it than I like. It currently has a Vortek kit making about 16.5 fpe. It's lubed with Krytox and the guides fit well but still not a clean thump. Before clipping coils to tame the gun, I'm gonna remove the Krytox and relube it with the Almagard 3752. I want to see if this tames the twang, how affects power and if it has noticeable temperature sensitivity. I'm looking forward to learning something new. The grease should be here in about a week.
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Wow, Ron
Thanks for taking this on. Removing Krytox and replacing that with cheap grease seems "backwards". If you do this, you will be able to tell us if there are indeed dragons, and if so, how large they are.
If you primary goal is to quell spring twang (rather than test sticky grease), then adding a plastic heat shrink tube over the spring guide might be an alternative to try. Or better yet, turning a custom guide from one piece of material.
What sells grease as a de-twanger is that you don't have to strip the airgun (unless you already have Krytox). Or, that you don't have the means to make a tight fitting spring guide.
An objective study into the effect of grease on thermal velocity stability and vertical stringing will be very useful to this forum. We don't have a lot of real data about this. I believe that Ed (nced) has tried several springer lubes before settling on Krytox. He has quantified pellet drop changes as a function of temperature with regular grease at 55 yards, with at least one of his HW95s, shooting FT. Perhaps Ed might weigh in...
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Wow, Ron
Thanks for taking this on. Removing Krytox and replacing that with cheap grease seems "backwards". If you do this, you will be able to tell us if there are indeed dragons, and if so, how large they are.
If you primary goal is to quell spring twang (rather than test sticky grease), then adding a plastic heat shrink tube over the spring guide might be an alternative to try. Or better yet, turning a custom guide from one piece of material.
What sells grease as a de-twanger is that you don't have to strip the airgun (unless you already have Krytox). Or, that you don't have the means to make a tight fitting spring guide.
An objective study into the effect of grease on thermal velocity stability and vertical stringing will be very useful to this forum. We don't have a lot of real data about this. I believe that Ed (nced) has tried several springer lubes before settling on Krytox. He has quantified pellet drop changes as a function of temperature with regular grease at 55 yards, with at least one of his HW95s, shooting FT. Perhaps Ed might weigh in...
Yeah Subs, we'll see what happens. The guides already fit pretty tight. I think the gun is more likely oversprung. I figured I'd try this grease out since so many people had good things to say about it and the mouse trap video was so impressive. If it improves the gun I'll be impressed. I like to tinker and can probably do the whole job in well under an hour.
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It works great for me. My HW95 had a lot of buzz when new. A little Tune in a Lube and all is quiet. I have used in on several of my springers all with great results.
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It works great for me. My HW95 had a lot of buzz when new. A little Tune in a Lube and all is quiet. I have used in on several of my springers all with great results.
I don't have it anymore, but I'll chime in.
Winchester 1100,with synthetic stock. Think I paid $53 (?) at Wally world. It honked when you cocked it,and when you pulled the trigger it buzzed/twanged. Watched the Tune in a Tube video. Liked what I saw and got a tube.
Followed directions. Big difference for me. No more honking before the lever latched. AND no more buzz/twang when it fired.
Went off with a THUMP. Became too big too shoot indoors in an apartment. :(
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Wow, Ron
Thanks for taking this on. Removing Krytox and replacing that with cheap grease seems "backwards". If you do this, you will be able to tell us if there are indeed dragons, and if so, how large they are.
If you primary goal is to quell spring twang (rather than test sticky grease), then adding a plastic heat shrink tube over the spring guide might be an alternative to try. Or better yet, turning a custom guide from one piece of material.
What sells grease as a de-twanger is that you don't have to strip the airgun (unless you already have Krytox). Or, that you don't have the means to make a tight fitting spring guide.
An objective study into the effect of grease on thermal velocity stability and vertical stringing will be very useful to this forum. We don't have a lot of real data about this. I believe that Ed (nced) has tried several springer lubes before settling on Krytox. He has quantified pellet drop changes as a function of temperature with regular grease at 55 yards, with at least one of his HW95s, shooting FT. Perhaps Ed might weigh in...
There is a "pseudo tabu" concerning mixing "dinosaur based grease" with synthetic Krytox due to the Dupont warning to completely strip existing oils from high speed bearings before relubing with Krytox.
According to these warnings the "dinosaur based grease" in a Krytox mix will oxidize and burn which causes the bearing to fail even though the Krytox in the mix is still good........
(https://i.imgur.com/vdguI7B.png) (https://i.imgur.com/51O4FWm.png) (https://i.imgur.com/6zcKAEd.png)
It does seem that for "high speed service" there is no/little benefit of using Krytox unless the petroleum based lubes are stripped first. When I first tested Krytox GPL205 grease I bought a 1/2 ounce tube simply to test the "non-dieseling claims" and used about 1/2 of the tube to slather the innards of my R9 deliberately getting a bit on the face of the piston........
(https://i.imgur.com/9kMJbUZ.png) (https://i.imgur.com/XCgzCBF.jpg)
Sure enough the Krytox didn't diesel, however even though I stripped the R9 innards with non-chlorinated brake cleaner, wiped the parts dry and let them air dry for a while before applying the Krytox I did get a "strange whiff" of something with the shots. Breaking down the R9 after a hundred shots or so for inspection I found that some grey streaks were mixed with the white Krytox so I again did the "degrease, dry and air dry" and regrease process. Two more testing sessions and there was still a "strange whiff" with the "grey mix" in the Krytox, however the mixing was less and less and after the third strip and relube with Krytox the "strange whiff" and "grey streaks" in the white Krytox was gone.
Really puzzled by the origin of the "strange whiff" I again broke down the R9 and took a pic of th ereceiver tube ID which showed porous brazing like this.............
(https://i.imgur.com/xFNkOry.jpg)
I'm assuming that the years of using "dinosaur oil based molly paste" had been packed into the braze voids so tightly and dried so that brake cleaner didn't dissolve the residue. After relubing with Krytox the dried molly paste residue was dissolved and then dieseled. Contrary to the R9 I had no issues stripping my new HW95 then relubing with Krytox GPL205, no "strange whiffs" or "grey streaks in the white Krytox. Here is a pic of the HW95 receiver ID............
(https://i.imgur.com/wlKDrlE.jpg)
Anywhoo........I've been using Krytox for a few years now and did find that the "brand" of Krytox used does make a difference. Here are a couple pics of Krytox brands that didn't work well for me.
This one seemed to separate in the tube giving an inconsistent flow from the nozzle...........
(https://i.imgur.com/rwQT3Of.png)
This "really expensive brand" coagulated on the barrel pivot joint during a wet and rainy field target match...........
(https://i.imgur.com/9vF9beZ.jpg) https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0150527 (https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0150527) (https://i.imgur.com/bttz3Fx.jpg)
Since that fiasco I've only bought "100% pure" Dupont branded Krytox grease and oils and have been pleased with the results.........
(https://i.imgur.com/EJSxLJ4.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/yR0KRn2.jpg)
I also found that the slightly cheaper Ultimox 226 to perform well however I prefer the "Plain Jane" Dupont GPL 205 which doesn't have the "added wear/corrosion" component............
(https://i.imgur.com/SdOdi8l.jpg)
Bottom line..........
Airgunners have been successfully using petroleum based molly lubes for decades with PROPER application. The "fly in the ointment" is the term PROPER application and the fact that the petroleum base if molly paste does outgas with time becoming "dried solidified chunks" and some lubes like "spring tar" can make the springer poi dependent on the temperature when shooting. A couple decades ago my brother and I were attending an early spring field target match using our home tuned .177 R9s. During the sight in before the match it was snow furring, however toward the end of the match both my brother and I had a 1" poi shift at only 20 yards as the temp rose to the mid 50s. Both our R9s were tuned with fitted spring guides, tar on the spring and guide plus molly paste on the piston and seal.
After explaining the lube procedure to another shooter it was suggested that we nixed the "tar" and only use a thin application of molly paste on the spring, piston and piston seal. This was done and the "temp related poi shifting" was reduced.
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Thanks for all the useful detail, Ed.
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Paul Watts shows how much the ID of a spring opens up after the spring has taken a set. In other words, if you make a fitted spring guide, it needs to be for the spring ID after the spring has been set (by full compressing it to coil bind).
If you make a tight spring guide based on a new unused spring's ID, the guide may be too loose after the spring has taken a set. A loose spring guide allows the spring to twang. Sticky grease should help for that, but setting the spring before sizing the guide would be the better approach:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCraLBDCTpw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCraLBDCTpw)
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This is true, the spring does need to be set before fitting if the goal is a twang/vibration free shot cycle. The spring also expands when the gun is cocked and doesn't "grip" the spring guide again till the end of the shot cycle. If the guide fit in the spring isn't sufficient to grip the guide when expanded the coils are still free to oscillate causing twang and or vibration and even after setting the spring the amount of preload when installing also affects the fit of the guide.
LOL....at times I've missed a "twang/vibration free shot cycle" because I misjudged the tightness of the guide so that guide is removed and another guide cut with a bit more interference in the spring. The "rejected guide" is simply tossed in the "parts bin" to perhaps be used in another tune where a different spring has a better fit. There is also a chance that a spring guide can have such a tight fit that all the coils on the guide aren't released and the coils are still "a bit compressed on the guide" when using Delrin material that I prefer for HW95 power tune kits. This makes for a nice shot cycle but also saps velocity and I'm not sure this fit doesn't increase stress on the remaining coils. I personally prefer a twang/vibration free shot cycle and tune to achieve this, however I'm not convinced that the guide fitting allowing minor twang/vibration is much of an issue.
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The R9 test subject doesn't have terrible twang. Just has a hint of spring resonance. We'll see if the Almagard 3752 can relieve that. And if so, does it cost power? I think the gun is over sprung and would quiet with a coil or two removed. I like the power it's at so I'm reluctant to clip coils just yet. If the Almagard works without decreasing power I'll be impressed as well as surprised.
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With the tune in a tube method, just put a little on the spring at a time, then shoot it for several cycles, add a bit more if the offending noise is still present.
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With the tune in a tube method, just put a little on the spring at a time, then shoot it for several cycles, add a bit more if the offending noise is still present.
Yeah that's how it's done. I figured if it works good with the little bit of access to the spring through the cocking slot, a complete disassemble and spring relube with the stuff should work too. This should be a fun experiment. I'll start off with small amounts and work my way up to sloppy. I want to see if it stays on the spring or slings all over the place and causes dieseling. As I said earlier I want to see if it slows the gun down and if POI changes with temperature. I already have equally rated grease on hand but I'll wait until I get the real Almagard 3752 so I don't skew the results. This is all going by the suggestion that Tune in a Tube is actually Almagard 3752.
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Ok I'm done with my popcorn. First off I've never used "Tune in a tube" and have no idea of its chemical properties are. I can tell you slot tuning or taking the gun apart and lube tuning with moly paste or tar (open gear grease) has worked for some and not for others. It is kind of a temporary fix that can lead to a few issues that has been well pointed out by several people here.
Most thick greases other Krytox are temperature sensitive. They stiffen in cold weather and thin in hot weather. This will change your POI and zero. When shooting continously friction and the heat of compression can thin thick greases from the time you started and cause shifting POI. and dats the name of that tune!!!
As Subs pointed out, lubes can and will migrate. Even behind the piston seal it's a violent place inside a springer, parts are flying and bouncing around and even the air pressure changes drastically when the gun is shot. So lube will be slung everywhere. Piston seals are tapered to seal best going forward under pressure. They don't seal well going backwards so it only takes a little too much lube to overload the seal and get in front of it. Especially if you cock the gun quickly which can create a slight vacuum in compression chamber and pull in fumes and grease from the spring chamber. Lube and it's fumes in front of the seal will burn from the heat of compression. This is called dieseling. When it's really excessive and violent its called detonation. A little dieseling is normal, a lot is not. Yes new Weihrauchs smoke and diesel a bit when new as many new springers do. It can take a short time or a long time to clear up. Sometimes it never clears up and the seals burn through. There's been an unfortunate rash of that lately. Weihrauch QC has been poor lately.
In any event springers are best run with very little lube and spring vibrations dampened with various methods of mechanical control like better fitting guides and properly sized piston sleeves. This can be done at home or professionally depending on one's abilities and budget. With a slot tune or lube tune the excess lube and gas off inevitably finds its way into the compression chamber and can cause excessive dieseling and possibly detonation. Here's a few pictures to give you an idea of the long-term effects. Note this was a "tuned gun" when my friend got it and after a few years of service it met a premature demise. You can see the piston seal is burnt through and one end of the spring is completely bent and collapsed from dieseling and detonation. Life is already hard on these parts when perfectly installed and lubed. Adding extra lube to deaden vibration is literally adding fuel to the fire. It might work for a while but there's a good chance you're gonna have to replace some parts sooner than if you left it alone. Granted those parts would likely be changed in real tune anyway, so if you're really not happy with the buzz you got nothing to lose by trying a slot tune.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
And dats the name of that tune!!!
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Ron,
The grease between the spring ID and guide are what reduces twang. Grease on the spring OD may help too, if the piston ID is not far away - else it does not do much good. Anyway, my suggestion is to insert the guide into the rear of the spring completely, before rifle assembly, and to apply grease to the guide, between the coils of the relaxed spring. That way, the grease starts exactly where it is wanted.
If you apply grease to the guide, and then slide on the spring, the spring my wipe the grease so that the bulk of the grease's average position is too far back. I suppose it is a matter of how much grease you start with. If you apply a lot of grease, then such wiping is less of a concern, but you won't know how little grease can be used to do the job. Also, there is a question of where does excess grease go? That is not where one wants to start the experiment.
Anyway, it is your experiment and you should run it a you see fit.
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Ron,
The grease between the spring ID and guide are what reduces twang. Grease on the spring OD may help too, if the piston ID is not far away - else it does not do much good. Anyway, my suggestion is to insert the guide into the rear of the spring completely, before rifle assembly, and to apply grease to the guide, between the coils of the relaxed spring. That way, the grease starts exactly where it is wanted.
If you apply grease to the guide, and then slide on the spring, the spring my wipe the grease so that the bulk of the grease's average position is too far back. I suppose it is a matter of how much grease you start with. If you apply a lot of grease, then such wiping is less of a concern, but you won't know how little grease can be used to do the job. Also, there is a question of where does excess grease go? That is not where one wants to start the experiment.
Anyway, it is your experiment and you should run it a you see fit.
Thanks subs. Got it covered. I know how to work with this stuff. Meaning springs, guides and grease in general. This almagard is just a different brand grease. Anyway I'm gonna start light like I usually do and work my way heavier until it's fixed or it creates something worse than I had before. I'm not expecting miracles but it would be nice if if deadened the spring noise without creating some other worse condition. We'll see what happens. I'll start another thread when I start the experiment.
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I'll start another thread when I start the experiment.
Link to Ron's new thread: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=192358.msg156229068#msg156229068 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=192358.msg156229068#msg156229068)
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Wow, Ron
Thanks for taking this on. Removing Krytox and replacing that with cheap grease seems "backwards". If you do this, you will be able to tell us if there are indeed dragons, and if so, how large they are.
If you primary goal is to quell spring twang (rather than test sticky grease), then adding a plastic heat shrink tube over the spring guide might be an alternative to try. Or better yet, turning a custom guide from one piece of material.
What sells grease as a de-twanger is that you don't have to strip the airgun (unless you already have Krytox). Or, that you don't have the means to make a tight fitting spring guide.
An objective study into the effect of grease on thermal velocity stability and vertical stringing will be very useful to this forum. We don't have a lot of real data about this. I believe that Ed (nced) has tried several springer lubes before settling on Krytox. He has quantified pellet drop changes as a function of temperature with regular grease at 55 yards, with at least one of his HW95s, shooting FT. Perhaps Ed might weigh in...
"grease on thermal velocity stability and vertical stringing"
When I first tested Krytox GPL205 several years ago one of my first tests was to see if temperature changes affected velocity of my Krytox lubed and oring sealed .177 R9. A few years prior when I used "spring tar", molly paste and a factory R9 piston seal I experienced a 1" at only 20 yards poi shift from early morning when I did the sight-in during snow flurries and about 3/4 way through the match when the temp rose to the mid 50s. The match was during the early season in Virginia when the early spring temps are variable. Assuming that the poi shift was due to lube viscosity changes I stripped the spring of all "tar" and the receiver of all molly paste, then relubed sparingly with only molly paste. This did help some but I theorized the old style HW parachute seal combined with the molly paste was changing durometer affecting the poi. At that time I experimented with turning an aluminum oring seal holder to replace the factory piston seal and the oring sealed piston cap greatly reduced the poi shifting. Matter of fact, with the oring sealed piston cap the R9 only required a couple "warm up shots" to stabilize the poi instead of the previous arrangement that required about a dozen warm-up shots to stabilize the poi. This was a great benefit when squirrel hunting with my brother and I still use a home turned and fitted oring sealed piston cap but switched from molly paste to Krytox years ago.
When I first moved to NC I tested the Krytox lube by leaving the R9 in my unheated sun room over night when the temp dropped to the 20s, then directly taking the gun to the chrony and measured the velocity. The next day the R9 was left indoors at about 70 degrees and again the velocity was measured. I don't remember the velocity but I do remember being surprised that the velocity during the 20 degree average temp was 10 fps higher than the 70 degree temp. That was enough to convince me that non-dieseling Krytos was useful for my R9. Later I bought a .177 HW95 on sale from AOA for $299+shipping and noticed that it had the newer design HW thick parachute edge piston seal and found that the newer design seal performed almost as well as mu oring sealed piston cap giving up only 10fps velocity when lubed with Krytox. I still use the piston caps in my R9 and HW95 because I like a "non-eroding/cracking" seal face compressing air through the transfer port..........
(https://i.imgur.com/SJBTo92.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/DCnUGNM.jpg)
Here is my very first oring sealed piston cap after a roughly 1500 shor testing to determine if there was any "impact damage" on the face. Nope, only combustion products from the diesel prone molly paste I used at that time........
(https://i.imgur.com/T0xKCEO.jpg)
Anywhoo........the "air density" changes with the temperature can affect the trajectory of the pellet so I'm convinced that velocity at the muzzle has more bearing on trajectory that shooting longer distances in different temps.