GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Airtillery on September 02, 2021, 05:19:13 AM
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I apologize if this topic is in the incorrect "Gate" as I wasn't sure where else I should raise this topic.
As a fairly new air gunner, I recently had some incidents that could have easily caused me or someone within the immediate vicinity serious harm. Fortunately no one was harmed, and without going into detail of the disconcerting incidents I experienced. It made me wonder if the varying iterations of air propelled pistols, rifles, manuals and supporting accoutrement's, have some level of safety standards to adhere to. Similarly to how UL (Underwriter Laboratories) assess and apply safety standards to the myriad of products sold and used here in the U.S. and other countries.
While my goal here is not to impugn any individual manufacturer's product or this industry as a whole, I do see and have personally experienced some concerning safety gaps in this sporting genre. As such, I merely wish to better understand this topic and how it relates to our air sporting hobby. In the hopes of preventing potential adverse events from occurring to other newbies, myself and even well seasoned veteran air gunners.
I know I have much to learn. And when I initially got into this sport, I truly thought my years of experience with firearms, both as a young civilian and later within the military, would also apply to air gunning. However, air propelled platforms are much more complex than firearms, and there are many more things that can go wrong. Some of these nuances are "NOT" common sense and also very difficult to predict. They are also not always well explained by the manufacturers, dealers et al., and supporting manuals.
Which brings me back to why I started this thread. Which is to learn from other GTA members about how safety in this air sporting industry is perpetuated.
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...without going into detail...
So, we are to gather that you are concerned about risk, and want to make things better. Great. If you want to help us and have us help you, more detail is probably going to be required.
Safety comes from understanding. Understanding comes after knowledge. We don't know what your concerns are; thus can't help you.
Welcome to the forum.
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Ummmm you kinda have to get into the “details” of “the incidents” if you want us to provide any insight.
People always seem to do this on shooting forums. Without details there is nothing to be gained and even if that knowledge is “YOU WERE AN IDIOT!” We have all been “AN IDIOT” and we have all had to be told so at some point or another. No shame in learning from mistakes.
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Is there a question in there somewhere? Treat all guns as loaded guns. Don't point at anything you don't intend to shoot. It's pretty simple.
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Just google "air gun safety". You will find hundreds of links from various sources and manfacturers.
Here is a document prepared by the NRA.
https://coach.nra.org/media/4259/airgun_safetyguide.pdf
But yea common sense goes a long ways. There is no 'regulating body', thank goodness.
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What could it possibly be ?
Some blowback co2 replicas will burp off a burst of full auto fire when the co2 cartridge is getting low, but other than that I can't really think of any other safety concern in airguns today that couldn't be prevented by common sense.
Most have lawyer triggers unless it's a target gun that the buyer will probably have the sense to be careful with, anti bear trap mechanisms in springers, safety devices built into PCP guns ...ect you name it.
That accidental burst co2 replicas sometimes do is the only one I can think of that can't really be prevented by the user.
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When you get a gun, Read the owners manual! Lots of red triangle warnings. There is your safety instruction. Simple enough.
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how safety in this air sporting industry is perpetuated.
Not being vague is a good place to start.
The complete list of what can happen and how to avoid trouble is multiple times the quoted section below, in general; with more specific info for certain platforms - as for the Huben further down.
Spring-piston airguns can remove fingers, if you pull the trigger with the action open and a finger in the breech area. Some have mechanisms to minimize this risk, but if you value your digits, you should hold onto the cocking lever/barrel while loading the rear or of the barrel.
There is no extractor on an airgun. The fastest way to clear a loaded chamber is to shoot the projectile out. Or push it out with a cleaning rod inserted from the muzzle.
It is possible to double or multiload many PCPs, thus risking a plugged barrel. (Because there is not extractor). Some PCPs have a feature that prevents double loading the chamber, but these are not standard.
Removing the magazine after loading the chamber does not make a PCP safe.
PCPs with pressure regulators and removable air tanks, may have enough high pressure air left in their plenum to fire one or more shots with the air tank removed.
Most PCPs can be dry fired. Many will dry fire when the magazine is empty. Others will interrupt bolt motion, signaling an empty magazine.
Many PCPs can be fired without fully closing and fully locking the breech. While this may blow out a breech seal, the energy delivered to bolt over such a short stroke with .177 and .22 PCPs, is not enough to do more than bruise a knuckle; and frighten the user with a loud noise. Hearing damage may be the most pertinent concern. On large bore PCPs, the potential for harm is greater because the larger bore generates more force to the bolt at a given pressure; and longer bolt reach into the breech provide a longer acceleration distance to transfer more energy to the bolt. Some airguns have interrupts that work like a firearm disconnector, but many do not.
When pulling the trigger on a PCP with the bolt all the way open, the hammer strike is reduced. This reduces the potential damage/harm even further from the above.
If you take a PCP apart while under pressure you are looking to get seriously injured or killed.
Airguns will shoot through more than one layer of paper.
When you buy a vehicle, the user manual starts with the assumption that you know how to drive. In similar fashion, airgun manuals assume you know how to use and handle airguns. It is only when an airgun is different from others of the type that the manual is likely to offer more information. For instance:
I don't own a Huben K1, but below is my understanding of the platform. Huben owners should feel free to correct me, but I think I score at least 95%, here:
The semi-auto Hubern K1 fires projectiles directly from the magazine. There is no action required to load the chamber as one does with a firearm. This means that apart from the safety switch, a Huben is always ready to fire when there is ammo in the mag and air pressure in the reservoir. It will fire one shot per trigger pull until the mag is empty. The mag cannot be removed to unload the gun.
Thus, to make a Huben completely safe it needs to be:
Fired until the mag is empty. Be careful of skipping a chamber when loading. A single dry fire will create the impression that the mag is empty.
Or, projectiles need to be forced all the way through the mag with a rod of sorts;
Stored in a safe or locked box.
The above is good to know, but no harm will arise if you don't allow an airgun to point at anything you don't want to shoot; and don't use the trigger as a finger rest.
Probably not what you are looking for, but how can we help you focus, if you don't help us to help you? Without such focus, your post comes across as the foundation for a sweeping "airguns are dangerous" campaign of sorts. Sure they are. It states that in every user manual.
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Before I respond, I believe I made a mistake in my attempt to directly respond to those that replied to my topic. I tried the "QUOTE" feature, but apparently I do not know how to use it correctly and inadvertently posted an incomplete "QUOTE". So GTA Senior Contributor, please disregard my "QUOTQ" error.
Sorry all, I'm still learning how to navigate all the different forum posting features here.
Fair questions and points to those that replied, and my response as follows:
> GTA Senior Contributor: Please allow me to repost the "premise" of my topic as follows:
"It made me wonder if the varying iterations of air propelled pistols, rifles, manuals and supporting accoutrement's, have some level of safety standards to adhere to."
While risk assessment is a concern for the betterment (and self preservation) of this sport. As indicated above, I simply inquired about "Safety Standards" within this industry, and do they exist? If so, would someone proffer where I may refer to said industry "Safety Standards"? Is there a U.L. of airgun experts and scientists that inspect and review airgun products to insure they are safe for public consumption? I have no problem sharing the specific incidents that led to this topic, but for brevity's sake, I skipped the incident details, for my question was about "Safety Standards" in general.
> Cslinger:
Sorry, what I stated above applies as well. As for being an idiot, I fully concur there is NO shame from learning from mistakes. However, that also implies one had fore knowledge of a specific process or procedure and "failed" to follow the steps involved. Since you ask for my incident details, here is one.
As a brand new owner of an Evanix Rex, it's promoted as a great backpacking pcp. Further stating, that with spare (full) air tanks you can just simply unscrew an empty tank and screw on a filled one to continue shooting. Well unbeknown to me, whether by osmosis, from the manual, or the dealer, there are other precautions to be aware of while screwing on a full air tank. "After" this particular "incident" with the Rex, I learned that some air tank valves stick out further than others. When I screwed on the tank, the barrel and connected breech engaged & opened the valve. Then in an instant, shot out about 3,600 psi (250 bar) of air out the barrel. At the end of the barrel, I had a soft rubber plug to seal the shroud end to prevent any debris or moisture from entering the barrel. Well the soft rubber plug was shot out, at who knows what fps, and embedded itself into my wall. Again, at "NO" time was I advised about this eventuality, despite all my many questions about the Rex and watching a plethora of videos & reviews on the Rex. Some of which even showed the reviewer removing an empty tank and installing a full, spare tank. With NO mention of how the valve may be engaged when being screwed on.
So clearly this was a safety issue and could have easily been prevented with the proper warnings in the manual, as well as from the dealer's who sold me the spare air tanks. As a new air gunner, things like this are NOT "common sense"! Air propelled systems are much more complex than the ubiquitous firearm. As I got into this sport, I did much research and asked many, many questions to anyone that had the "patience" to address them, which unfortunately were few. Sadly, my experience with some of those who represented X dealers were dismissive of my safety related and procedural based questions. Now I have pretty thick skin, but even in this forum, we have some misunderstanding and misreading my post and focusing in on the wrong premise of what I posted. I am sure this will cause some to potentially be riled up from what I just stated. I'm really not trying to start a controversy, but have no compunction to address any misaligned comments. I just simply want to know if the pcp's, co2 marker's, or any other air propelled device, their manuals and supporting accessories have in fact been tested, reviewed and deemed safe and by whom? I just got in this sport and in less than one year had multiple incidents that could have caused me or maybe less safety conscious individuals as me serious harm.
> Roadworthy:
Nice classic bike you have pictured. Yes, there was a question. Sorry I wasn't clear enough in my phrasing for you to catch it & as stated as follows: "It made me "WONDER" if the varying iterations of air propelled pistols, rifles, manuals and supporting accoutrement's, have some level of safety standards to adhere to." To paraphrase, I am asking: Do such things exist in this industry, or do we have have to take it on faith this is done and every air propelled pcp or the like is safe without any safety flaws or nuances in the design or manuals that may cause one any harm? I disagree that air propelled systems are simple, and that "ALL" you have to worry about, as you state, is to treat all guns as loaded and be pointed in a safe direction with a safe backstop. I've come to discover, that each air based guns, tanks, valves, etc., have their own unique designs, with seemingly inherent safety flaws that to be able to understand or even predict, you would need a degree in both mechanical and pneumatic physics.
> UlteriorModem:
Thanks for the NRA link! I've not seen or read this before. Common sense, as it relates to air propelled guns, I believe only comes with experience. Not everyone has a degree in pneumatic physics or years shooting pcp's and the like. Some things, like the incident example above can only come from being educated (or told) on the inner workings and dynamics of pcp's. If there was a mistake on my end, was simply believing what I was told and then not exploring deeper as to the all the physics behind a pcp. Which there again, is a very complex prospect for a newbie to ascertain by simply reading a manual, many of which by the way, do not even come close to explaining all the potential safety issues. I am torn on the presence of a regulatory body. But if this industry can police itself from the inside, I am all for it. However, I think having regulations on HPA tanks is not a bad thing, in my humble opinion. We certainly don't need a rash of exploding tanks ruining a persons day or life. Maybe I'm wrong on HPA tanks and hydrotesting requirements, but can human nature be trusted to "NOT" take short cuts to save a buck or two. I think there should be some rules and standards to help guide its' participants to be safe. So far, I think I have been very lucky to have not been injured or maimed in the adverse incidents I have experienced in such a short period of time.
Thanks for your commentary and sorry I didn't address each individual at this time, as I'm sure this post is much, much too long already. In summary, after the above described incident, along the other scary ones I had, is what gave birth to my curiosity about this industry and if or how safety considerations are addressed, shared or regulated. Again, I'm just a newbie air gunner trying to increase my knowledge and self preservation. As I shoot for the enjoyment of this incredibly awesome and exciting platform.
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Thanks for the detail, Airtillery
PCP tank rupture strength does follow specific standards for design and testing. Those over 2" in diameter are supposed to be hydro tested at 10 year intervals, or discarded.
I am not aware of a UL type body that pressure tests airguns sold in the US. I think that the major distributors have a vested interest to ensure that the airgun manufacturers do proper design and manufacturing quality verification. Air Venturi would be such a company, that imports many airgun and related products.
I will go and study the Evanix Rex to see what idiosyncrasies it might have. Many PCPs with removable tanks will hiss as you screw them on or off. However, the volume of air that escapes should be very small.
If you have multiple tanks, please compare the distance from the seal to the valve. If one leaks and the others not, there has to be a difference. Are they all Evanix brand? Is there any model number on the tank? How do they compare. Are the tanks new or used?
I have one PCP with removable tank. The actual firing valve exists in the tank. This might have the potential for the valve striker to push open the valve as the tank is fitted, and yet it does not. It is a matter of system design with a rebounding striker that prevents this.
What if they system malfunctions, or a piece of debris gets onto the top of the airtank, and holds open the valve open as you screw on the tank? This does point to a differentiation between PCPs and fire arms:
With a firearm, an empty chamber means there is no projectile AND no energy source. With a PCP, the energy source and projectile are independently loaded. One may be present without the other. Any time either the projectile is loaded, or the air tank is installed should be considered a potential firing event, with safe stop barrel pointing direction practiced.
By placing a plug in the barrel, you effectively loaded a projectile. Thus, the valve failure you describe turned this mistake into a firing event. My suggestion is that you place an external rubber or flexible plastic cap over the muzzle. The shorter the distance a cap or plug travels, the less energy an air leak or firing event can impart. The weaker and more stretchable the cap, the less energy it can build and deliver as an inadvertent projectile.
For instance; these caps are cheap:
https://www.mcmaster.com/plastic-caps/for-shape~round/round-caps-9/ (https://www.mcmaster.com/plastic-caps/for-shape~round/round-caps-9/)
Finger "condoms" you could shoot through, if in a hurry: https://www.mcmaster.com/finger-cots/size~xl/ (https://www.mcmaster.com/finger-cots/size~xl/)
The fact that PCPs do not have a projectile extractor, and that a loaded chamber cannot be easily identified, would make the problem you described potential much worse.
What I do to mitigate this risk is to open the breech whenever I am handling a PCP airgun with a non-shooting hold. This includes pumping up a fixed air tank, or screwing on or off a removable one. With the breech open, the barrel will vent out the breech, even if there is a projectile or plug loaded into the barrel.
The above is smart practice in general and essential, when the fill gauge requires you to look at the air tank from the muzzle end.
Cheers
subscriber is my user name, because nebulous was not available...
EDIT: Here is the Evanix Rex user manual; in case you don't have it:
https://www.krale.shop/media/blfa_files/Evanix_Rex_Rex_P_manual_EN-min.pdf (https://www.krale.shop/media/blfa_files/Evanix_Rex_Rex_P_manual_EN-min.pdf)
I will give it a look-see later tonight.
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https://www.krale.shop/media/blfa_files/Evanix_Rex_Rex_P_manual_EN-min.pdf (https://www.krale.shop/media/blfa_files/Evanix_Rex_Rex_P_manual_EN-min.pdf)
From the manual; at the bottom of page 4 (# as shown in document. Page 5, as shown in viewer) there is a warning in red. Warning repeated at top of next page:
Do NOT let the pressure in your reservoir drop below
100 bar (approx. 1450 psi) because there may not be
enough pressure to close the bolt valve, and all
remaining air will leak out. The gun will have to be sent in for repair.
If the tank you screwed on had its pressure below 100 BAR, then the event you experienced would be expected to happen. If you had multiple tanks in your backpack and inadvertently screwed on one that was already shot low, the above could occur...
The manual states to leave the hammer uncocked. It is well known that with onboard PCPs the hammer often needs to be cocked to enable an airtank to be pumped up from zero. Else the hammer may hold open the valve enough to leak air. So, there is some pressure at which the hammer may still keep the valve open when a new tank is screwed on. Usually, this pressure is quite low. If that threshold pressure is 100 BAR for this Evanix that would explain the warning above.
In any event, my admonition to open the breech when changing or charging airtanks would prevent an instant firing event. However, subsequent decocking may have caused what you experienced with a tank below 100 BAR, with this platform (if I understood correctly). If so, that would be very different from most other PCPs. With most PCPs, you can let the hammer or striker rest on the valve when the tank pressure is perhaps 500 PSI, without air leaking through the valve.
Such a high minimum pressure seems unusual, but it is stated clearly in the manual. And flagged as a warning in red.
I will read the rest of the manual later.
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I see no other clues in the user manual. Or half a dozen videos on youtube.
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Airguns are no different than firearms in my eyes. They both use a gas propellant to sling lead. They both can kill -- even the 5FPE guns if not handled with due diligence.
I certainly would not want a .177 or a .22 (or higher) coming at me from any of my guns.
I've gotten injured shooting plastic both with regular firearms and airguns. I broken windows from ricochets with both firearms and airguns.
Again, to me, both guns are the same. The only part that is different is in some laws, but even then not entirely.
With that being said, hush, so we don't the safety police get all stirred up.
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I will have to let the “PCP” guys work with your issue as I don’t feel like I have enough knowledge to add anything. I will confirm that it is common for a PCP gun to exhaust all remaining pressure if shot down past a certain point like the 100 bar listed above. This is usually in the manual.
Just for the record I wasn’t CALLING YOU AN IDIOT. I was just trying to get details from you and sometimes when we do something stupid we don’t want to fess up to it. (As in ALL of us) so if that had been the case I wanted you to be aware that we’d all been there with something or another and either we personally could learn from it or others could.
Good luck with the Evanix.
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Excellent write up subscriber.👍👍👍 I was going to point out the same thing about having a rubber plug in the barrel. It's effectively loaded and someone with a firearm wouldn't work on it with a round in the chamber.
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Thank you for the well stated response. It makes things much more clear. I did not know if your were addressing operator safety or manufacturer safety. Manufacturers do meet certain safety standards and they do vary by airgun type. The tanks and accessories for PCP airguns must also meet safety standards. Those pressures can be lethal but the volume is generally small enough to minimize the risk. Thousands enjoy safe airgunning whether PCP or springer without incident. Don't dwell too long on dangers which will never materialize. Common sense is good, though uncommon. Enjoy the sport. The bike, by the way, is a fully restored 1972 Triumph Bonneville T120-V (currently in need of front fork seals).
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Evanix Rex seems an unusual starting point.
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Evanix Rex seems an unusual starting point.
I wouldn't judge...
I just sold a friend on a Daystate Red Wolf Safari in .22 cal as their FIRST ever airgun, along with an Athlon Midas TAC scope, an EC-3000 compressor, and they bought a 10k rounds of .22 of JSB to start with. You go add up the price on that one... and don't forget absurd NYS sales tax.
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Very interesting issues. Subscriber, well put and to the point.
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Thanks fella's and (fellow'ettes) for extending your valuable time to read and address my long winded points to this topic! I truly do appreciate each of the expressed suggestions, cited references and opinions to help advance my understanding of this awesome sporting genre. There is always something new to learn. I think when I first got into this, I was overwhelmed with all the new terms and processes required to operate an air gun and its' supporting equipment. For someone that less than a year ago didn't even know that air guns even existed, it was almost like learning a foreign language.
Cslinger: I really knew that you didn't call me an idiot and didn't take it that way, lol.
Roadworthy: I thought is was a Bonnie, but didn't want to refer to something it wasn't. Once I was stationed in Germany and took a trip to England to visit a friend. He let me ride his Bonnie while busy teaching his philosophy class. I was in a quaint housing neighborhood that initially had no traffic. So I just took off as if I was in the U.S., on the wrong side of the street mind you. And when a car was headed my way, like an idiot, I flashed the headlight and was frantically waiving my arms to try and summon the driver to get on the right side of the street. For a moment, I completely forgot where I was at and got called a "bloody bloke American" a few times and was vehemently reminded I was in England, lol. Aside from that, I had a great time cruising around on a classic Bonnie!
Well I am going to call it quits for now and again, I greatly appreciate each of your replies!
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You are welcome, Airtillery
We really do like to help. Don't hesitate to comment or ask about anything else.
I have a habit of unsubscribing from threads when they seem to have gone dormant. So, if you post here later and I seem to be ignoring you, use the PM system.
You could start another thread, but there is nothing but chance to flag that. Anyway, there are a lot more knowledgably people on this forum than me. I just know how to focus an enquiry, and where and how to find and vet info.
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Forgive me, but I'm going to be hard in this one!
It's not our job to educate or regulate you, It's YOUR job to educate yourself. There is too much nanny state out there, and we don't need more of it.
I'll give you some examples.
Air tanks are regulated by the DOT. Carbon fiber tanks (and other tanks) over 2" diameter fall under DOT, and need to be hydrotested on a regular basis. Generally 5 years for carbon tanks, with a lifetime of 15 years. How many outdated tanks are still in "safe" use out there? I have searched, and can't find reports of tanks exploding unless they are severely mistreated. In the US, we can't get CE rated tanks(recognized in most of the rest of the world) filled or tested (DOT regulations again!), even though the requirements are higher than DOT.
There are lots of home compressors out there, but the manufacturers have very little to say about putting desiccant filters on them. Condensed moisture in tanks can cause severe corrosion, with eventual leaking or testing failure. You're also working with up to 4500psi! Should the compressors have mandated warning labels? I don't think so.
The information is out there, and since we can't sit you down and beat it into you, it's your job to go find it, and use it properly.
I'm going to say go old school here, and remove all the government mandated warning labels. Let Darwin sort it out!
I survived Jarts, no seat belts, and a ton of other stuff, mostly by not doing stupid things.
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Manufactures Should supply all hose and probes with safety lanyards .. The ones I made up for all HPA are steel fishing leaders..
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You can't legislate or engineer away stoopidity.
An old saying, stoopid should hurt.
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About the REX,
I have 3 of them with 2 spare tanks, I take the tanks off and on all the time and there's no way that the valve will engage with the barrel unless you screwed the barrel further in or when the gun came to you the tank was not screwed in all the way ( and I don't see that happening )
With the tank screwed in you can dial the barrel to stop just shy of touching the valve, super simple procedure I do that all the time when changing barrels around.
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Manny,
Perhaps you could explain what happens if you let the tank pressure drop below 100 BAR? The manual warns not to, because something requiring factory service to correct, will occur. It was not clear if this problem would occur when the tank was screwed on at low pressure, or simply shot down too low - although the implication is, the latter.
To me it sounds like shortly below 100 BAR the tank will vent completely, if the hammer is resting on the valve uncocked. This does sound unusual for a PCP. I speculate that the OP ran into this particular limitation of the Rex, but we still don't know for sure. He has not clarified what of significance he has learned. Either he has figured out what he wanted to know, or is put off by the somewhat hostile tone of many replies in this thread.
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I've gone under 100 BAR several times and had nothing happen.
I just picked up one of my REX and I don't think there's enough pressure on the valve from the hammer at rest to vent until super low pressure, trying to remember and I think the REX acted just like every other PCP when de-pressurising venting at the very end.
But,....if the barrel is set to far back then it will trigger the valve as you are screwing in the tank.
the barrel needs to be indexed with the tank screwed in so you can tell when to stop screwing the barrel in,...just let it kiss the valve ;D ;D
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Thanks Manny,
I did not notice anything in the manual about setting barrel depth, but I was not looking for it. Looking again, the word "barrel" is used once in the manual on page 6 under the "loading section". When it comes to "disassembly", the manual simply states not to do it. Especially under pressure:
https://www.krale.shop/media/blfa_files/Evanix_Rex_Rex_P_manual_EN-min.pdf (https://www.krale.shop/media/blfa_files/Evanix_Rex_Rex_P_manual_EN-min.pdf)
Like so many airguns, reading forum posts and watching videos about other people using, servicing or modifying them them, can uncover what might appear as idiosyncrasies, until they are understood. For people who own a number of airguns, such "tricks" may be old hat; compared to a first-time airgun owner...
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This is all an exercise in stupidity. Honestly I'm fed up with lawyers trying to stupid proof the world. Truth is they're not really trying to, because they'd be out of work. Honestly If you can't operate a simple airgun (of any type) without endangering your neighbors you should be relegated to crayons.
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You're a bunch of idiots if you think the initial post was initiated in good faith. There was never any concern for your rights
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I hate when someone starts a thread, get all kinds of people involved and then just don't follow up and goes silent.
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Well, the OP started a thread on airgunnation, asking the same question:
www.airgunnation.com/topic/air-safety-standardizations/?referrer=1 (http://www.airgunnation.com/topic/air-safety-standardizations/?referrer=1)
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Okay... All the variations of the human psyche are incredibly fascinating! In as much as the diversity of commentary to this topic I initiated. Some remarks asking for clarity, more details as well as constructive suggestions were what I thought I would see and be reading. But some of the stuff a few of you wrote, (if I may be direct) appear to "POTENTIALLY" miss the target. As to the essence of what I was "CURIOUS" about. Hence my initial and partially rhetorical pondering comment as follows when I started this post:
"It made me wonder if the varying iterations of air propelled pistols, rifles, manuals and supporting accoutrement's, have some level of safety standards to adhere to."
For a moment here, and I "sincerely apologize" to those that have a pure interest in exploring, addressing, providing constructive feedback and even possibly learning from the precise the nature of this threads subject; to have to endure what follows. As such, it seems I need to digress from the actual "subject" of this forums real objective. Which is to address some of the tangential views, and, I really hate to say it, some expressed false accusations.
Mr. Wall: I fully agree with you and you are absolutely correct. It is on me to educate myself. And to the best of my knowledge, I never asked anyone to "regulate" me. With all the sincere respect that you deserve, is it not also my prerogative, as to how I go about this self educational experience? I just recently joined this forum and for a while just read different topics and their posts that interest me, and seem to see different guys asking for advice on this or that. So, after the incident I detailed, I thought I would try and write up, I believe my first ever non intro post on GTA. In the sincere interest in trying to learn from whomever cared to take the time and offer direct feedback to what I was "curious" about. Please correct me if I am wrong here and if I am, I have no problem taking a hike. But I was under the impression that this is a community of air gunners. Whose goal and mission statement as published in the GTA "ABOUT" section as follows:
"The discussions cover all aspects of airgun information from pellet weights, calibers, their types and uses to airgun comparisons, airgun velocities, airgun fpe, airgun fps, what gun to buy, airgun safety, airgun hunting, airgun maintenance, airgun repair, trigger information and servicing. We consider our forum to be a family friendly site. And when you join, you become a family member. Our family is very well versed in all aspects of air gunning. We have folks with experience ranging from a few days to decades of accumulated knowledge. We have engineers, designers, manufacturers, vendors, World Team competition participants, airgun TV personalities, professional tuners and thousands of enthusiasts, paper punchers and hunters. And ALL are happy to share their knowledge and experience to help you enjoy your journey into modern airguns.
Bottom line, the GTA International Airgun Forums has something for anyone interested in airguns and wanting airgun information or to share airgun information. We are VERY proud to have you join the GTA family."
So upon reading the aforementioned mission statement. I thought my "SAFETY" topic was in line with what this forum may be able to address and with the huge brain trust of experience that appears to be here. I was hoping to simply learn about some things I do not know about and have not been successful in locating. Despite expending several hours of time reviewing videos, reading all sorts of information. As well as chatting with, as I have previously stated, whomever had the patience to bear with all my many questions. And as new air gunner, I had tons of them.
I know it is "most likely" already way too late to avoid starting a controversy with some of you, based on some of the "idiomatic expressions" that appear to be directed at me. And if I offend anyone in my making a direct, counter statement to challenge any assertions I may disagree with. I sincerely apologize to said individuals. For it is not my desire to offend, but as gently and respectfully (as I can), set the record straight. I mean, good grief, since the inception of this topic, I have some people calling me out. Claiming I am some a lawyer on some safety expedition. Or how this is an exercise of stupidity and all this was done in "bad faith". Now the thing about the crayons was really funny and probably true if that were really the case, lol. I can empathically state as God (or whatever a persons deity icon they so designate) as my witness, I am not a lawyer, this truly was in good faith. I am fairly new to air gunning and have much to learn, and I haven't killed anyone with crayons, yet. Conversely, since my early teens, I have "never" had a single incident or accident with a real firearm. Whether from learning to shoot with an Anschutz precision 22lr target rifle, to reloading my own ammo and shooting them in an AR15 (A2), Steyr model GB 9mm, 44 magnum Ruger Redhawk, and whatever else I shot as a civilian, and the plethora of other weapons I shot while serving in the military. I'm pretty sure I know how to handle any gun, but, but I am very dangerous with them crayons and I can not be trusted to handle them safely. If you see me with crayons, for your own self preservation, you should run away as fast as you can!
Lastly for this rant part, while I firmly believe in free speech and every persons right to opine. But some of this stuff, I just have to vehemently shoot it down. I seriously doubt that I am parsing words in some of these lame attempts to initiate some thought provoking commentary, that has absolutely nothing to do with what I am attempting to understand about the "safety" topic. The issue I raised was stemmed in part from a "technical" incident that I WILL address following this rant. But I got to ask, is this normal behavior for some forum members to get all riled over a small issue coming from a burgeoning newbie air gunner? If so, maybe I am in the wrong place here. It's almost as if I committed some sort of crime here.
Now, back to the real issue at hand.
Nomadic Pirate (NP): Yes I did start this thread, but respectfully, I have been far from silent. I really do and have expressed my great appreciation to each and everyone that took the time to read my long winded, pseudo dissertation, and for those that proffered their feedback and shared knowledge. If you go through all my past replies you will see I have been very busy responding and have also been reading up on all the various things different members suggested I look into. Which has proven to be a huge never ending rabbit hole. I just needed to step away for a day from all this as I do have other things going on in my life. So please don't hate too much, for as you can see I am taking in what you all take the time to share with me.
I am aware of the Evanix manual, warning about NOT allowing the psi to dip below 100 bar. But this was "not" the issue. As I described and as you well understand, I simply had a full tank that had it's valve engaged and blasted out all the air while screwing it on. As I previously mentioned, I just do not want to front anyone out. I did have a talk with whom I got the spare tanks from and we discussed this issue. Here is what I was also emailed about this issue as follows:
"The head spacing needs to be adjusted between the barrel and the ranks. There are variances, small but there, between tanks. It’s why there is a set screw to lock the tank vs having to screw it in all the way. It’s possible for the valve to hit the barrel before you’ve got it all the way flush and continuing to screw it in opens the valve on the tank."
Mahalo (NP) for digging into this and sharing your expertise. I've checked out many of your posts and images and one of these days would like to learn how you set up your Rex P to shoot arrows. You don't know this, but I too am Kamaaina, a hui hou...
Another also directed me to watch this video at youtube.com/watch?v=-MtoJDEZI-g (that I consequently did not know existed). Which showed how to adjust the Rex barrel so that there is a paper thin gap between it and the tanks valve. I kind of feel this whole thing (for some) has gotten completely overblown. I simply posed a general question about safety standards and I just wondered if they existed and if so to what extent. Part of this comes from my developing experience with hpa tanks and pcp's, the few incidents I've had, as well as seeing this video: youtube.com/watch?v=a1hrms0i2LU. I'll admit when I first got into this, I had some trepidation about having such high pressure equipment around me and in some cases with my face resting on a hpa tank with 4.5k of psi in it. After seeing the above video and learning about some other accidents, as well as some of the things I heard about foreign made pcp's, I just simply wanted to know and understand if everything is truly safe. And if there was some UL of airgun's or if the manufactures that construct and sell these pcp's undergo some rigorous testing of their products? And if so, does anyone know what and how they go about testing the safety of their pcp products. It really is a simple as that. All this other fruitless commentary completely missed the mark as to what I was curious about. We all care about our lives and those that pertain to our world. I just want to make sure any air based gun I purchase and shoot is something I can trust as being safe. And that the manufacturer has in fact tested their product to the Nth degree and not just slap or copy another's' design to be sold to the public. I simply want to trust that when I am shooting a pcp, with a hpa tank next to or near my head, etc., is not going to harm me. Furthermore, if there are some safety issues not addressed in a manual, whether it is something they never tested for or failed to warn folks about, that there be some mechanism to get the word out and even have a manual adjusted to reflect such things. Am I really asking too much to want my pcp's safe? That is the premise of my question I posed in this forum as newbie air gunner. But unfortunately, it seemed to irk some individuals as if I am committing a conspiracy to create some sort of nanny state. Or just be flat out dismissive to something I raised, without seemingly trying to understand where I was coming from on this topic, is a little disconcerting to say the least!
Subscriber / GTA Senior Contributor:
You are correct I did also initiate this very topic on AGN. Which is proof positive (not to you, but the other doubters) of my genuine concern and interest in understanding this topic. As well as its' dissemination to those it may concern or pertain to. In that forum, I had also addressed a host of replies as well as read every one of the responses, just as I have done here. Just because I take my life serious and want to do all I can to protect it by understanding and taking the prudent precautions while trying to "safely" enjoy this and other hobbies I partake in, does not mean in any way I am for mandates. As stated before, I truly appreciate your time and valuable research to look into these things and posting accordingly. I know this takes a lot of your time and your help is truly valued! Thanks...
MobileHommer:
Sorry pal, but not every accident, mistake or lack of knowledge, is a result of being stupid and certainly not worthy of being severely injured! Respectfully, that is just my humble opinion and sorry I don't share yours or other's idiomatic expressions!
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cb,
My best advice is to be as specific as possible when you ask a question. Else you get two type of reaction:
1. Your question is ignored. It shows as a thread view, without reply.
2. People are frustrated because they don't understand what your want, but are motivated to help. What they don't know, they assume or imagine. Even to the point of castigating you for something you have not done.
Asking about "airgun safety" is simply too broad. You need to narrow it down. Hence the requests for clarification. Failing that, the appropriate response is not to heckle you, but to ignore you.
One more thing. There is a vast difference between the safety in use of an unmodified airgun, and one that has been stripped and rebuilt by the owner. Even if there was no specific modification made, because the user may induce a safety risk without realizing it. One that is prevented at the factory by means of an assembly fixture, or assembly procedure.
This type of error is typically covered by the manufacturer by printing the words, "do not disassemble your airgun. Ship it back to the manufacturer or an authorized service center". The barrel space setting Manny so usefully described seems to fall squarely into this category. Why not describe it in the manual? It seem the manufacturer does not trust their customer to make what sounds like a simple adjustment. Still, if only one of your tanks has a barrel spacing problem, that suggest the tank may be defectives in some way.
This thread reminds me of Catch-22: You need to help us, help you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0VO_Q80OXk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0VO_Q80OXk)
What I have learned, is that there is one person on the planet that uses more words than I do; and is actually more vague for it. This pleases me, as I regularly fail at my goal to be succinct. :)
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The video link that you posted cb, seems to cover your situation exactly - below. Whoever sent it to you should have posted it to this thread. Then you should have piped up and said, "yes, that's it, in a nutshell". A lot of speculation and heckling would have been forestalled.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MtoJDEZI-g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MtoJDEZI-g)
The exchange and and discussion of information is a two-way street. One in which you as the initiator are duty bound to participate. Else, you have summoned the waiter; and once you have his full attention, you act like you are not ready or interested in discussing the menu.
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Don't use the set screw to set the tank short of fully screwed in, ......also to use that you would need to remove the scope rail, not something you can do in the field.
if by any chance the 2 air tanks you have are different ( that hasn't happened with the 5 I have ) .....in that case get the one where the valve sticks out more, losen the 2 grab screws that hold the barrel, now the barrel if free to be unscrewed do that a bit, screw the tank fully in the gun, screw the barrel back in until it kisses the valve, set the barrel grub screws to keep it in position.
now the other tank might have a tiny extra space between valve and barrel but it will not make a difference since the sleeve covers the valve.
As for arrows, what caliber you have ? ....Airbolts work great it's just a matter of cutting them down a bit to fit the barrel.
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cb,
My best advice is to be as specific as possible when you ask a question. Else you get two type of reaction:
1. Your question is ignored. It shows as a thread view, without reply.
2. People are frustrated because they don't understand what your want, but are motivated to help. What they don't know, they assume or imagine. Even to the point of castigating you for something you have not done.
Asking about "airgun safety" is simply too broad. You need to narrow it down. Hence the requests for clarification. Failing that, the appropriate response is not to heckle you, but to ignore you.
One more thing. There is a vast difference between the safety in use of an unmodified airgun, and one that has been stripped and rebuilt by the owner. Even if there was no specific modification made, because the user may induce a safety risk without realizing it. One that is prevented at the factory by means of an assembly fixture, or assembly procedure.
This type of error is typically covered by the manufacturer by printing the words, "do not disassemble your airgun. Ship it back to the manufacturer or an authorized service center". The barrel space setting Manny so usefully described seems to fall squarely into this category. Why not describe it in the manual? It seem the manufacturer does not trust their customer to make what sounds like a simple adjustment. Still, if only one of your tanks has a barrel spacing problem, that suggest the tank may be defectives in some way.
This thread reminds me of Catch-22: You need to help us, help you:
What I have learned, is that there is one person on the planet that uses more words than I do; and is actually more vague for it. This pleases me, as I regularly fail at my goal to be succinct. :)
I hope I an using this "QUOTE" feature correctly here?
Thanks for the above advice. On your point #2. It's funny how our individual written perceptions are clear as day to ourselves, but to others, you may as well be speaking in a alien language from a foreign universe. I truly believed my topic title and ensuing question about safety standardizations, intentionally broad as it may have been, was succinct and to the point. I was "not" trying to find out about what caused my Rex and other incidents I experienced, as I had already been coached on it, hence the video. Which is why I chose not elaborate about it and clearly stated this desire to not go into that, for that was "not" the primary issue of this topic.
I was (and still am) asking the "Macro" question about the industry as a whole. If you will, I'm wanting to see this industry from a 10,000 foot drone view, and how manufacturers go about their R & D and safety testing of (X) air based products. I am simply just curious about how this is done and if anyone here had any insight on this. Much like the host of videos we see of car manufacturers test crashing their cars to insure they will withstand the physics of an accident. Maybe not for all, but these are fascinating to watch. And I do believe these test results are published as "safety ratings" within the car window sticker, as well as in various car review magazines, such as Edmonds, etc. I believe there are some youtubers that perform some great reviews, which are very helpful in assessing the general effectiveness of any given air gun related product. But I was and am, as mentioned looking for information about the manufacturing industry as a whole.
In the "About" mission statement, it indicates the the diversity of members, to include the following: "engineers, designers, manufacturers and vendors". I was namely attempting to or hoping that someone in this industry category would have popped in and addressed my initial macro question about the industry. I have "NO" ulterior motive or agenda here, just a plain and simple curiosity to understand what I don't know and can't seemingly find. And with that, my focus would have been to keep the direction of this topic moving in that direction. But for some unknown reason, this whole topic diverged away from what I was attempting to explore and understand. After getting the plethora of replies asking for specifics about the "Rex incident" or for more information. I wish I would not have acquiesced, to those like you who were "very" respectful. Including the mob that seemed to have their own pre-judgement misunderstanding, whom of which were voicing near hostile and dismissive opinions of this topic. I just should have stuck to my guns as to the gist of what I was wanting to explore and understand, and not get caught up in attempting to respond to the tangential replies that just pulled me further away from the essence of my topic. While my excuse in doing that, is the fact that I am a new member here and really do not know any of you and how the forum ticks. As such, I was just going with the flow, at the expense of what I was looking to achieve. For it seemed this was what the forum was demanding. This I will take responsibility for as my mistake. As well as a learning lesson as to what I can and cannot expect in this forum. Whilst I should have known that human condition are full of flaws and anytime you have a bunch of people gathered together, you are going to get a wide variety of opinions, spanning from rude to respectful. I should have known this was going to occur. However, I would have never fathomed that some this forum would react to this topic in the manner it has. I am still completely baffled as to why, even at this juncture, no one seems to still understand the core basis of my topics question?
That is not to say I didn't appreciate and learn something new from those that took the time to post specific suggestions and other options I can employ to insure my Rex air tanks functions safely. Of which I really do want to dive more into this later on. When I'm not distracted by this digressive direction I wish I never would have fell trap to.
"What I have learned, is that there is one person on the planet that uses more words than I do; and is actually more vague for it. This pleases me, as I regularly fail at my goal to be succinct. :)" Now that is really funny. I am glad to be in competition with you on this! You got the goods on me, lol. I truly wish I was not like this. But what can you do...
In closing, I think this topic has been severely burned and I sincerely apologize to all for ever starting this topic and not better managing its' direction. Including failing to accurately convey what I was searching for. I in part, got way too caught up in responding to the antagonists as well as ultimately addressing the subordinate incident, instead of the actual macro topic. Some comments really caught me off guard. As I did not expect this, and after reading the GTA mission statement, I thought every member here knew the words to Kumbaya and would be singing it in unison and in key... :o
HAPPY LABOR DAY!!!
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Don't use the set screw to set the tank short of fully screwed in, ......also to use that you would need to remove the scope rail, not something you can do in the field.
if by any chance the 2 air tanks you have are different ( that hasn't happened with the 5 I have ) .....in that case get the one where the valve sticks out more, losen the 2 grab screws that hold the barrel, now the barrel if free to be unscrewed do that a bit, screw the tank fully in the gun, screw the barrel back in until it kisses the valve, set the barrel grub screws to keep it in position.
now the other tank might have a tiny extra space between valve and barrel but it will not make a difference since the sleeve covers the valve.
As for arrows, what caliber you have ? ....Airbolts work great it's just a matter of cutting them down a bit to fit the barrel.
Yeah, I hate dealing with the set screw as I do like keeping the rail and See All on. But I am rethinking the See All sight and looking to get something else.
I think all my tanks are the same. But I was told by a dealer that there were some changes to them and I can't for the life of me recall what that was, and I can't seem to find the email about it. I think it has something to do with the valve and that the new generations or whatever you call produced more power, I think? I also have the carbon fiber tank, and like how it has a set ring or adjustment ring that allows to set how deep you screw on the tanks valve. I was wondering if you could have something like this on the regular steel tanks as well to set how deep you can screw the tank on. This way you won't have to adjust the barrel depth any. I apologize if I use the wrong terms on some of the parts. I'm still learning.
I have the 50. I bought some of the AirBolts thinking I was going to get me a Seneca Double Shot, but found out that CAP Arms doesn't do their magic power mod on the Double shot. I was really set on this and ended up dropping the Seneca option for some other projects. I even bought and paid for a few sets of the Air Nocks, nearly a year ago and still have not received them, arghh!!! After seeing the killer image of your Rex that has the modified shroud, with an AR like stock and 3 AirBolts with broadheads. It renewed my interests in being able to shoot arrows of of it. Part of the reason why I never pursued the arrow Rex option, was I was told you can't do this by a dealer. But obviously it looks like you can. Did you cut it down from the nock section or from the front? Correct me if I am wrong, by the look of that 2012 photo of your Rex with the arrows. Aren't 357 AirBolts? Anyway, I'd be interested in your method you went through to size the AirBolts to shoot out of the Rex. Mahalo...
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OK, cb, I think I have a better picture of who you are now. You meant exactly what you said. But therein lies the rub:
A new forum member asking a broad question about safety standards has a similar feel to a new member asking for information about accidents or murders committed with airguns. Without being specific about the "why", you actually came across as a threat at an instinctive level. Hence the hostility.
Now that I have a better feel for who you are, I can tell you that there are several places that the airgun industry lacks standards; much to our collective chagrin. There is a recent thread about the lack of standard dimensions for Foster fill fittings that is a good example: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=190515.msg156202589#msg156202589 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=190515.msg156202589#msg156202589)
Another is the lack of standard bore and groove diameter, especially in the smaller airgun calibers. This can make finding the "right" projectile challenging.
I have about 700 posts on a particular firearm forum, and am met with suspicion because of a low post-count. One would think the content of posts matters way more than count, but that is a simple metric that lazy people use.
I will often sample a person's first and last page of listed posts to get an idea of what they are about. In your case, that is not possible.
I am aware of having a little too much fun in my exchanges. With you and others. The thing is, unless I am motivated to post by being useful, I default to extracting entertainment value. Either way, for an exchange to be mutually satisfying and sustaining, there has to be a roughly equal mutual exchange. If you hold back, it feels like a dog that insists on playing catch, but won't give up the ball.
Airgun manufacturers differ greatly with respect to the encouragement and support they offer to those who want to experiment and modify their airguns. Crosman will sell you any part you ask for, at reasonable process. They even included their base valve settings in the Marauder manual, for example. They encourage the user to optimize settings for their own use-case (this may sound silly when compared to a fully adjustable FX, but there it is). I am pretty sure than any part damaged by the user would still void the warranty, but the liability phobia some other companies display seems absent with Crosman.
There are instances where a company does the right thing not to sell spares directly to the public. For instance; Ruger does not sell Mini-14 bolts of firing pins to the public, because these need to be fitted by a competent smith, to ensure safe headspace and FP protrusion. Contrast that with AR-15 bolts and firing pins. These are standard parts where you verify headspace and protrusion, but are not expected to need to set it.
I mention the above, because it seems each airgun manufacturer decides its own risk approach. Risk to the customer, and risk of being sued for something the customer "improved" or "adjusted". I prefer that they include advice that applies to something like barrel changes, if people are likely to do it. With many PCPs, barrel position in the receiver is fixed by means of grub-screw dimples cut into the barrel.
My apologies for you bumpy ride into the forum. I hope that you have a better understanding of the dynamics at work here. And how to get the most value out of the expertise that exists.
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Here is an expert analysis of what let go in the PCP that "shot" the valve thought the guy's leg in that video:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=97121.msg907672#msg907672 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=97121.msg907672#msg907672)
First of all, I'm glad that the guy wasn't killed, or injured more seriously than he was.... That could have been a fatal wound if it was over just a little bit.... WOW !!!
Now, let's analyze some of the things in the video.... There appear to have been (at least) TWO separate failures here....
1. They disassembled the back of the gun, removing the rear plug and the hammer.... The threaded end of the HiPac was still in the front of the tube.... Therefore, the Disco valve MUST have come out the back of the tube.... Why?.... See #2....
2. The tube does NOT have any side holes in it for the side screws in the Disco Valve.... Therefore, we can assume that only a single screw was used in the bottom.... They said that the gun let go when they were taking off the stock.... The stock screw sits in the slot in the Disco valve just behind the O-rings.... My guess is that the stock screw was taking part of the load, and when they undid it, all the load went on the bottom valve screw.... and BOOM, out the back of the gun it went, and through his leg....
3. I'm not a fan of HiPacs, but HOW in heaven's name do you use one with a Disco valve?.... They are designed to work with a stock 22XX valve, and seal against the valve, so that the tube is not under any pressure.... Did these guys cobble up some kind of seal between the HiPac and the Disco valve?.... or did they just use the HiPac to pressurize the tube (something it was never designed to do), and seal the Disco valve into the tube with O-rings?.... If they had a seal of some kind between the front of the Disco valve and the HiPac, and the tube wasn't under pressure.... then when the valve moved back a fraction, BANG the tube was pressurized, and that stressed the HiPac in ways it was never designed for....
4. Despite #3, how in heaven's name did the HiPac fracture at the threads, leaving the threads in the tube, and the HiPac imbedded in the ceiling?.... Is this a completely separate failure from the valve shooting out the back?....
Too many questions, and not enough answers.... However, I would say that whoever built that gun, using a Disco valve with apparently only one screw, must bear some of the blame.... If they had the valve sealed to the HiPac, the way it was intended to be, then did they have O-rings on the valve, so that it sealed to the tube?.... If they didn't, and the HiPac was only pressurizing the valve and not the tube.... then how did it develop enough pressure to shear the valve screw and fire the valve into his leg?....
Bob
This is like partially filling a room with propane and striking a match. The injury from this PCP has nothing to do with "industry standards for safety". It has to do with people keen on "making improvements" not having any clue about the physics involved. Nor the limitations of parts and materials, when not used as the designers intended.
The only thing that video demonstrates is how much energy is stored in 60 CC of air at 2000 PSI. But then, we already knew that a fully charged PROD can shoot pellets with a combined energy of about 400 FPE.
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How the brain-trust on GTA forum bless custom PCP designs and HPA stressed components:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=72672. (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=72672.)
Airgun lab videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/1227air500/videos (https://www.youtube.com/user/1227air500/videos)
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You DON'T work on PCPs with hpa in it just like you don't work on a fire arm with a cartridge in the chamber.
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I get somewhat confused, when members chime in on a topic referencing a question, only to add belittling comments.
If we are truly here to help each other, why the cutting comments? Did the post originator attack you in some manner that I missed?
Maybe I did miss something, but it seems like this member received way more non-helpful comments than were asked for.
Why is the first tool in our tool box a knife, when a dust brush would have done the job.
For all who really tried to help thank you!
Just my thoughts, if I have offended anyone let me know what I did to manage that task.
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Don't use the set screw to set the tank short of fully screwed in, ......also to use that you would need to remove the scope rail, not something you can do in the field.
if by any chance the 2 air tanks you have are different ( that hasn't happened with the 5 I have ) .....in that case get the one where the valve sticks out more, losen the 2 grab screws that hold the barrel, now the barrel if free to be unscrewed do that a bit, screw the tank fully in the gun, screw the barrel back in until it kisses the valve, set the barrel grub screws to keep it in position.
now the other tank might have a tiny extra space between valve and barrel but it will not make a difference since the sleeve covers the valve.
As for arrows, what caliber you have ? ....Airbolts work great it's just a matter of cutting them down a bit to fit the barrel.
Yeah, I hate dealing with the set screw as I do like keeping the rail and See All on. But I am rethinking the See All sight and looking to get something else.
I think all my tanks are the same. But I was told by a dealer that there were some changes to them and I can't for the life of me recall what that was, and I can't seem to find the email about it. I think it has something to do with the valve and that the new generations or whatever you call produced more power, I think? I also have the carbon fiber tank, and like how it has a set ring or adjustment ring that allows to set how deep you screw on the tanks valve. I was wondering if you could have something like this on the regular steel tanks as well to set how deep you can screw the tank on. This way you won't have to adjust the barrel depth any. I apologize if I use the wrong terms on some of the parts. I'm still learning.
I have the 50. I bought some of the AirBolts thinking I was going to get me a Seneca Double Shot, but found out that CAP Arms doesn't do their magic power mod on the Double shot. I was really set on this and ended up dropping the Seneca option for some other projects. I even bought and paid for a few sets of the Air Nocks, nearly a year ago and still have not received them, arghh!!! After seeing the killer image of your Rex that has the modified shroud, with an AR like stock and 3 AirBolts with broadheads. It renewed my interests in being able to shoot arrows of of it. Part of the reason why I never pursued the arrow Rex option, was I was told you can't do this by a dealer. But obviously it looks like you can. Did you cut it down from the nock section or from the front? Correct me if I am wrong, by the look of that 2012 photo of your Rex with the arrows. Aren't 357 AirBolts? Anyway, I'd be interested in your method you went through to size the AirBolts to shoot out of the Rex. Mahalo...
Yes cut down from the front, remove the aluminum cup do some measurements so your nock is right in front of the valve when the aluminum part sits ion the crown then cut accordingly, super simple.
The great thing about the REX shooting arrows is that by being an inline system the heavy arrows will make the gun increase substantially in power.
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Ho yes and mines are .357.....been waiting for the .357 airbolts to came back in stock for years but a .50 should be in my near future
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Yes cut down from the front, remove the aluminum cup do some measurements so your nock is right in front of the valve when the aluminum part sits ion the crown then cut accordingly, super simple.
The great thing about the REX shooting arrows is that by being an inline system the heavy arrows will make the gun increase substantially in power.
Sorry for my slow return reply to acknowledge your tip. Had other things going on.
Much thanks for the tip. I like your suggested option better than what another suggested. Which was to get a heat gun and heat the nock and remove it when the glue has loosened up. Then cut it from there and re-glue it on after measuring it out. What do you do to remove the aluminum tip you screw the bolt on? I have some ideas, but would rather learn from someone that has already successfully did it before. I would think the aluminum cup has some length to it to fit down the arrow shaft and to have enough female threads to accept the bolt, maybe an inch or so?
I can imagine the power output with these air bolts. Had you ever chrono'd this and if so what did you get?
Thanks again. I appreciate your taking the time to offer a tip.
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Ho yes and mines are .357.....been waiting for the .357 airbolts to came back in stock for years but a .50 should be in my near future
The 357's must be pretty popular as you can't even pre-order them now like you can with the 45's & 50's. I ordered some nocks almost a year ago and still haven't gotten them. AV seems really slow on making these. I'm sure you know this, but just in case you didn't. Pyramyd offers buy 3 get 1 free on the air bolts, as they treat them as ammo. I accidently found this out. As they don't tell you when you order arrows and I wasn't associating this as ammo. I originally was just going to buy a box. But out of curiosity, I wanted to see how many they had in stock, so I added 5 boxes in the cart thing to see if it would take, and whataknow, a free one popped up! So I thought, what the heck and went for it & did the 3 for 1 deal! I could always sell a box or two if need be, lol.
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🤔 I read all of this and I am going to skip this one :P ;D
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Ho yes and mines are .357.....been waiting for the .357 airbolts to came back in stock for years but a .50 should be in my near future
The 357's must be pretty popular as you can't even pre-order them now like you can with the 45's & 50's. I ordered some nocks almost a year ago and still haven't gotten them. AV seems really slow on making these. I'm sure you know this, but just in case you didn't. Pyramyd offers buy 3 get 1 free on the air bolts, as they treat them as ammo. I accidently found this out. As they don't tell you when you order arrows and I wasn't associating this as ammo. I originally was just going to buy a box. But out of curiosity, I wanted to see how many they had in stock, so I added 5 boxes in the cart thing to see if it would take, and whataknow, a free one popped up! So I thought, what the heck and went for it & did the 3 for 1 deal! I could always sell a box or two if need be, lol.
What caliber did you order ?....I buy a box from you
In the post above this one was there a question you asked that got mixed in with the quotes ?
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You created the unsafe condition yourself by plugging the barrel/shroud. Same thing as having a pellet in the barrel while changing the tank.
The world is a dangerous place.
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You created the unsafe condition yourself by plugging the barrel/shroud. Same thing as having a pellet in the barrel while changing the tank.
The world is a dangerous place.
Many people use those finger condoms, in the field. I know my service rifle had a plug, that was meant to shoot off.
There are 2 safeties you can safely rely on. Your finger and one between your ears. Relying on a mechanic safety is how negligence happens.
Also don't put yourself in front of the muzzle and keep it in a safe direction. Everything is common sense, when it comes to anything that slings any sort of lead.
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There's a ton of regulations concerning pressurized vessel system online. Anything, from hydraulics to water systems, hydrogen, oxygen, you name it- they all behave the same: fluids, including air, seek equalization on each side of the containment vessel. All of them should be treated with respect, and when you break it down to brass tacks, pressurized systems work just like electrical systems. Pressure =voltage, obstructions=resistance, and flowrate=amperage. So above all, think about what you want to do, always play it safe, and don't hesitate to ask before commencing work.
The majority of airguns available have multiple owners here; so with that in mind, factor in all the pressurized system stuff with every imaginable firearm precaution and that's approximately what you're dealing with. I'll parrot what RobertMcC says about common sense. The key to that is knowledge, so the more you can find out before tinkering, the better.
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And wear your PPE.. As stupid as it looks, saves you from trips to the ER.
Today I was cleaning some mags for a match tomorrow. I was removing the floor plate and my finger slipped, and the spring hit the wall and came back at me. But lucky for my glasses. Yesterday a bullet came back and hit me in the arm. You don't need to wrap yourself in pillows and be that safe, But you need to be aware.
There is a thing of being too safe. I witness some people, that were trying to be too safe, that we're actually pretty dangerous. And caused others around them to be very nervous.
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And wear your PPE.. As stupid as it looks, saves you from trips to the ER.
Today I was cleaning some mags for a match tomorrow. I was removing the floor plate and my finger slipped, and the spring hit the wall and came back at me. But lucky for my glasses. Yesterday a bullet came back and hit me in the arm. You don't need to wrap yourself in pillows and be that safe, But you need to be aware.
There is a thing of being too safe. I witness some people, that were trying to be too safe, that we're actually pretty dangerous. And caused others around them to be very nervous.
Yeah in PB I feel that sometimes the people that are most red tapeish are the ones that have no situational awareness. I saw this one guy walk into live fire looking for brass and had forgot himself, though ten minutes earlier he had blasted a kid for not talking a bold completely out (not even required there). He got kicked out for the day. With airguns, yes glasses go a long way. I always wear glasses. I am lucky I didn't shoot my eye out at 5 years old. Crazy
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Well, I never, ever wear glasses when shooting......but then again I weedwack barefoot too :) :) LOL
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OP is never coming back to this thread...
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OP is never coming back to this thread...
Nah of course not. Either a lawyer or something like that.
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OP is never coming back to this thread...
Nah of course not. Either a lawyer or something like that.
What did that guy ever do to you to make you call him a lawyer? :)
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What did that guy ever do to you to make you call him a lawyer? :)
Ask questions that look like entrapment :)
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What did that guy ever do to you to make you call him a lawyer? :)
Ask questions that look like entrapment :)
Haha yeah exactly. Nothing wrong with lawyers. This just seemed like a bait thread and then he never came back. He could always come back though so I am not pronouncing anything, but I think that overall this was a weird thread whether that was the intent of the OP or not.
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Very interesting observations concerning the OP.
As an attorney (50 years), I agree that he is likely one as well. The post is carefully crafted to elicit very specific information concerning self-regulation of the industry itself, rather than to solve a specific problem.
It is as if he is attempting to assign lax regulation as a cause of action for mass tort claim, or, perhaps, as evidence of a need for government intervention in the airgun industry. He is not attempting to solve a problem. He is trying to establish one. Jmo.
Peace, out.
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Well, I never, ever wear glasses when shooting......but then again I weedwack barefoot too :) :) LOL
I got way too many eye damage from years of mechanics and Infantry ( walking in the woods at night ) But yea I weed wack in flip flops as well.
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Thanks Steve,
Many of us had this impression, even if we were not able to put it as eloquently as you just did.
My primary objection was the projected attitude: "Answer my direct question; not ones I did not ask." "I don't have to answer questions (because I am not on the stand)". Yet, the OP denied the suggestion that he was trying to "make a case".
He still seems not to get the interactive nature of the forum. His attitude seems to be that he owes no audience or information to anyone. That, without realizing that it applies equally in his direction...
While this forum is free, the currency is information, logic and amusement value. If you want one of those three from us, you need to provide one of those three to us. Not an unreasonable bargain.
I have said enough on this topic. One that has run its course. My queue to unsubscribe.
Very interesting observations concerning the OP.
As an attorney (50 years), I agree that he is likely one as well. The post is carefully crafted to elicit very specific information concerning self-regulation of the industry itself, rather than to solve a specific problem.
It is as if he is attempting to assign lax regulation as a cause of action for mass tort claim, or, perhaps, as evidence of a need for government intervention in the airgun industry. He is not attempting to solve a problem. He is trying to establish one. Jmo.
Peace, out.
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Well, I never, ever wear glasses when shooting......but then again I weedwack barefoot too :) :) LOL
I always wear my safety Reefs. The ones with bottle-openers in the sole.
Now when I run my Billy Goat brush cutter, I wear something far more protective... Chaco sandals!