GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Diana Airguns => Topic started by: Toxylon on July 24, 2021, 02:48:45 PM
-
Hello, Gang!
I'm at the Baltic Archipelago, one of the world's most beautiful and pristine locales remaining. I took my D48 T06 and a couple other springers with me, to have some trigger time alongside fishing, swimming and assorted summer activities.
My D48 T06 is fully OEM, I haven't done anything to it but put some 900 pellets through the bore, and cleaned the latter.
At first, with factory trigger setting, the trigger felt ok, not good but useable. Now, closing in on the 1 000 pellet mark, the trigger has self-progressed to a point of unusability. The trigger pull is like a long, long, annoyingly springy first stage where the gun goes off at some point near the bottom, without ANY kind of second stage in there. I can't shoot a gun like this, not with any accuracy. I need a light first stage with a definite stop and not too light a pull through the second stage.
My D350 Mag T06, now in dormancy, has exactly similar, terrible trigger. I thought the previous owner of that gun had adjusted the trigger out of whack, but now I know that's not the case. TO6's progress into terrible triggers all their own (my D48 was NIB).
What I'm after here are some methods of adjusting the T06 trigger to resemble a decent two-stage trigger. I know that simply taking an allen key to the To6 adjustment screws is recipe for utter frustration, hence the call for some solid pointers.
-
I've not seen your gun but in my experience Diana adjustment screws are common screws located in the trigger blade itself. I have sever T06 models as well as T01 and they're all that way. Back the first stage screw (closer to the front of the gun) out about two or three full turns. Adjust the rear or second stage screw so the gun fires about where you want it to. Pull may be a bit more difficult than you wish but this is the second stage. Begin turning the front screw back in, perhaps a quarter turn at a time. The pull will be much easier than the second stage pull once it starts to engage. Trigger setup is just kind of a balancing act between these two screws. (There is a third screw behind the trigger but that sets difficulty of pull.)
0
-
First, leave it alone if you don't know what your doing. These things are dangerous, even more so when they don't work right. ;)
That said, I had a crash course in the T06 with a lemon 350 mag a while back. I'd recommend studying a diagram of the trigger and see if you can understand what the screws are doing. They're not magic, AA and Hatsan use similar setups just basic leverage and timing.
For a quick and dirty internet diagnosis of your problem, there's 3 screws. Two in the trigger and one behind, the one behind adjusts the pull weight. Turn the middle screw (rear screw in trigger) in a 1/2 turn or so and see if you feel any 2nd stage come back.
Beyond that there are endless discussions and vids on the internet about this trigger. Just have to find the one that speaks to you if the diagram doesn't do it for you. Be careful and good luck.
-
Up front, I know nothing about a TO6, but I do know quite a lot about the TO1.
I believe that they are similar in function as far as the trigger screw adjustments. (Someone please correct me if I am wrong here).
Anyway, follow Thomas' directions, observe the attached pic, and adjust accordingly.
I've never heard of trigger adjust screws backing out of adjustment, but I suppose anything is possible.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vk7yvp4b/triggerfunc.jpg)
HTH
:D
-
.
I've never heard of trigger adjust screws backing out of adjustment, but I suppose anything is possible.
On the one he's says is OEM, most likely the 2nd stage screw or it's mating surface has worn/broken in. Screwing it in a touch will restore the original clearances.
The second hand unit, no telling what the last guy did.
-
.
I've never heard of trigger adjust screws backing out of adjustment, but I suppose anything is possible.
On the one he's says is OEM, most likely the 2nd stage screw or it's mating surface has worn/broken in. Screwing it in a touch will restore the original clearances.
The second hand unit, no telling what the last guy did.
I think you may be correct on both accounts.
There really is no mystery to all of this. You can always go back to the basics (back off all the adjustment screws) and start adjustments from there, just as the first assembler did.
That being said, NONE of my Diana or Weihrauch Rekord triggers (even within the same model trigger) feel exactly the same, no matter how much I fiddle and mess with them, but they are all very close to each other.
I am probably the most trigger-touchy-feely person on the planet, and so I do experiment with adjustments (including the "forbidden" screws - my favorites to mess with - tell me I can't touch that and I most surely will), but every single gun that I own has its own character, again, even among the same style trigger.
:D
-
Thomas just emailed me and made mention of an important point.
A trigger adjusted outside of the gun, on the bench, will not feel the same when installed and under load ON the gun.
Just thought I'd toss that on.
Thanks Tom!
:D
-
Thomas just emailed me and made mention of an important point.
A trigger adjusted outside of the gun, on the bench, will not feel the same when installed and under load ON the gun.
Just thought I'd toss that on.
Thanks Tom!
:D
Very much a +1 on this.
It can be useful to take a trigger module out of a gun, to gain understanding how the mechanism and adjustments work. But there will always be some "slack" if the trigger is not loaded up by the mainspring. Adjustments that feel light and crisp and good on an un-stressed trigger box can be DANGEROUS when used for real.
Major caveat: I'm in over my head here - absolutely NOT an expert on modern Dianas, or the T06 trigger! But, as noted above, and looking at this diagram, the simplest answer might be that the second-stage screw has backed out a smidge. I might start by turning "screw 2" in, in small increments.
-
On the one he's says is OEM, most likely the 2nd stage screw or it's mating surface has worn/broken in. Screwing it in a touch will restore the original clearances.
THIS! ^
Screw it in by 1/8ths of turn and test as much as you need. Pellets are cheap compared to an accident stemming from a "puzzling" trigger.
In some high end competition circles, this condition is called a "rolling" trigger and some shooters actually prefer it to crisp second stages.
To each his own.
;-)
HM
-
Thanks everyone!
I've tested some suggestions here. To keep it simple, I'll just describe what I did and how it affected the pull.
I am aware that to get the T06 going, all three adjustment screws need to be balanced with each other, that's the tricky thing about it. I'd say I'm now in the stage where I learn what different turns of screws do. The balancing act is waiting ahead.
As per the safety of all this: my D48, when cocked and loaded, points to a 100 % safe backstop 100 % of the time. Even if I dialed in an instant hair trigger, and the gun would go off when I didn't expect it to, nothing bad would happen. This is the only way to do this, obviously.
First off, I backed off the first stage screw two full turns. Result: gun doesn't go off at all, trigger bottoms out with nothing happening. As per Thomas' advice above, I then should've / could've adjusted the second stage screw. I decided to turn the first stage screw back in, to get the gun to fire before commencing.
Then I turned the second stage screw in half a turn, as per .177sc's advice. No detectable difference, with zero sensation of a second stage in the extremely long, springy, indistinct pull. I turned it back out half a turn, then back in, taking shots, to make sure that turning the second stage screw this much had no effect.
Then, I took advice from a link by Deeco from Airgunwarriors, where a member had the exact same situation as me, as far as the T06 goes. He had found a solution to achieving a second stage by adjusting the backmost trigger pull screw, alongside the other two. I turned the backmost screw turn by turn, taking test shots in between. No hint of second stage was achieved with this. The trigger pull adjustment only made slight differences to the resistance of the initial, first stage part of the pull, which is ridiculous. After that, the pull would wander through light and not so light stages, with no steps or stops of any kind, and at the very bottom the gun would go off, the same as before.
I'll commence testing tomorrow. I'll start by doing the full routine Thomas adviced, turn the first stage out, and then try to make the gun go off by adding the second stage screw into the mix, and tuning the first stage screw back in. If my trigger's second stage screw is compromised, as suggested above, we'll find that out as well, eventually.
-
Have another look at my diagram as posted above and study the two extremes.
I'm pretty sure that my diagram illustrates a T01 trigger, but the mechanics are the same for a T06 (front screw - first stage; back screw - second stage).
Everything stated above by others is correct. You just have to find that balance point between the extremes.
HTH
:D
-
Glad you brought more than one gun with you. ;)
-Y
-
Yes it is a balance
But the WORST thing you can do in these situations is to move anything to one extreme.
Anyway, perhaps this will help:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUlAZRTtzBM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUlAZRTtzBM)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
-
Yes it is a balance
But the WORST thing you can do in these situations is to move anything to one extreme.
Anyway, perhaps this will help:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUlAZRTtzBM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUlAZRTtzBM)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
Thomas and I (by email) discussed that very video by Tony Leach, and at first I immediately dismissed it as I thought that Tony was taking things to extremes. However, after watching the entire video, Tony does things exactly as I would, even to the point where I can anticipate his next turn of the screw (not that I really know as much as Tony - just that I fully understand what he is doing in the fine tuning realm).
I have no problem trimming spring lengths on simple trigger systems such as a Webley Tempest, but in my humble experience, a system such as a Diana or Weihrauch trigger system should allow plenty of room for adjustment without having to trim a spring length. But I guess if Tony says to take ONLY one coil, he apparently knows what he is doing.
Great video demonstration of just how detailed, complicated (and frustrating) it can be to finely tune a nice trigger mechanism.
Thanks Hector, for forcing me to watch the entire video, even though I've been there too many times doing it myself.
:D
-
As delivered my 350, among several other problems, I was unable to adjust the 2nd stage. I replaced the lower sear lever with a new one and solved that issue. I wonder if the OP sear has worn into unserviceable condition. Pic below is my original part, I had tried some polishing at that point. That's a big hole.
-
4-5 years ago-soon after I got my 460 I managed to screw up the trigger setting
I had mindlessly monkeyed with the screws-without consulting the manual-and the trigger became "strange"
Then I wised up-posted here-and Hector walked me thru "correcting" it
Slight aside-I notice that with the TO6 trigger you NEED more trigger spring preload than the Record HW77 TX200 need.
My 460 feels "wrong" not crisp-indistinct when there is too little trigger spring preload.It needs more force to give a smooth clean feel.
Ilimakko are you still on that Baltic Archipelago?
I looked it up-I am jealous-it has hit 38-39 degrees-actual temp here everyday-- -New Orleans suburb(30N 90W) -with very high humidity-that archipelago looked "cool" breezy -
-
First off:
Someone upthread expressed rightly, that it’s nigh unheard of trigger settings changing on their own, especially on a quality springer. I haven’t seen or heard of it, either, until now. I take notes on my guns, and they tell the story.
Last April when I got the D48, I was pleasantly surprised that the new gun’s T06 was very different from my 350 Mag’s T06: the first stage was not overly long, and it was followed by a slight but present second stage stop, breaking of which fired the pellet away.
Then, after 900 shots and no trigger screw touched, the first stage was endlessly long, there was no second stage and the gun went off at the last possible point, way back in the trigger guard, with zero positive marker (to me) on when it’s gonna happen.
On to today's lesson.
I took my D48, and turned the 1st stage screw out a full turn. Then I turned the 2nd stage screw in a three-quarters turn. The gun didn't go off, echoes of yesterday. I turned the 2nd stage screw in a half turn more. Now the gun went off, and most importantly, there was a solid stop at the start of the second stage.
The second stage, however, was still abysmally long and mushy and the break last-minutey, the opposite of a clean, quick break. To counter this, I followed Thomas' procedure, and started introducing the 1st stage screw, 1/4 turns at a time. At the half-turn mark, the second stage shortened quite a bit. After yet another quarter turn, the trigger started to resemble something I can work with: a clear stop at the first stage / second stage juncture, and a quick-ish break after pulling through the stop. So, success!
My only hope is that my trigger dials last this time. If they don't, now I have tools to counter this, and prolly make my 350 Mag a workhorse, as well. So, thanks guys, and Thomas especially!
-
A European Trio at the Archipelago. From left to right: LGV, D48, H135. :)
-
Here's my opinion on the T06, first off unless you replace the adjustment screws in the trigger blade with longer screws to shorten the throw length, meaning how far the trigger moves reward before it contacts the lever that pushes the sear they contact to lift that sear upward your going to have a trigger that has a LOOOONG first stage, no way around it! or it will have a short 1st stage an a long creepy 2nd stage, and a heavy pull release, When I tuned my T06 all I did was polish the sears with mothers mag wheel polish, I replaced the spring under the lever that the bird mouth sear go's into to with a 0.15dia spring, I also replaced the rear spring with a softer dia wire 3rd adjustment screw, but I put the factory spring back in it because it was way to light! I did not replace the screws in my trigger blade because their was no need to for me! I like the lOOONG 1st stage that stops at a solid 2nd stage wall that takes minimal pressure to break, That's how I like my triggers, it gives me a safety measure and gives me time to pull the trigger slowly to the wall so I can line up on my target before I decide to release it! YMMV ;D
-
Baltic Archipelago.
Ya, I bet a guy can get some good tasty sardines in that area. Them north sea smoked were darn tasty. That place looks to me a good spot for some.. I guess any smoked fish from there is tasty
-
Wow-nice picture-is sure looks COOL!
Nice rifles-glad your T06 is now behaving -sure is odd that is self screwed up-wear maybe?
My 460-after Hector walked me thru correction-it is just like Mark 611's-nice long predictable 1st stage-then a firm hard 2nd stage- then BAM
It is much easier to hold the 460 at the 2nd stage-timing my wobble-much easier than the TX 200 and HW 77- they are like work holding at 2nd stage while wobble timing
-
A European Trio at the Archipelago. From left to right: LGV, D48, H135. :)
See any Russian subs? 8)
-Y
-
Sporter stocks NEED long first stages, OR a "swept back" trigger (which is a common mod for the TX-200 for a good reason).
The position of the hand makes it necessary to have the sear "Break" when the trigger is already almost UNDER the hand:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/ynVR5P.jpg)
It's also why some triggers need an extra "bit" that allows the finger to be positioned exactly where it needs to be for ensuring that the trigger squeeze is that: a SQUEEZE, NOT a PULL.
Pistol gripped guns and/or vertical Target type guns need a more "vertical" trigger point sear break position.
Just the way the human hand works.
On the Russian subs: It is much easier to see them when you go to Kirkenes (Norway)
;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
-
[quote author=HectorMedina link
Sporter stocks NEED long first stages, OR a "swept back" trigger (which is a common mod for the TX-200 for a good reason).
The position of the hand makes it necessary to have the sear "Break" when the trigger is already almost UNDER the hand:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/ynVR5P.jpg)
It's also why some triggers need an extra "bit" that allows the finger to be positioned exactly where it needs to be for ensuring that the trigger squeeze is that: a SQUEEZE, NOT a PULL.
Pistol gripped guns and/or vertical Target type guns need a more "vertical" trigger point sear break position.
Just the way the human hand works.
On the Russian subs: It is much easier to see them when you go to Kirkenes (Norway)
;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
Hector-ahhh,so is that why my Diana 460 is easier to shoot standing freehand --than my TX 200?
The Diana 460 is effortless-I can take up the slack and hold it as long as needed-or ease off take a few breaths-start over
But doing the same thing on the TX 200 is WORK-
Thanks for the tip
Charlie
HM
[/quote]
-
Huge aside but
Finns Russians Rifles
Fews days ago watched a U-Tube video-Finnish sniper who shot-100-500 Russian soldiers in just 100 days in the 1st 1939-1940 Finnish-Russian war
He did it with OPEN SIGHTS?? No scope-with a Sako built Russian bolt action rifle-with a variant of the Russian full sized .30 cartridge
He survived the war despite being shot in the face by what was described as an EXPLODING BULLET?
He is considered one of the most sucessful snipers in history-
the russians being russians made things easier for him by not having white camouflage- Midwinter war in Finland no white camouflage-
-Needless to say the Finns wore white-all white
-
Make very fine adjustments and take notes,…every gun is different . It’s delicate a balance,…. too far either way will instigate negative results. And be patient! If you cant get it at first, lay the gun down and come back to it later. You'll figure out what works best for your gun eventually.
-
Huge aside but
Finns Russians Rifles
Fews days ago watched a U-Tube video-Finnish sniper who shot-100-500 Russian soldiers in just 100 days in the 1st 1939-1940 Finnish-Russian war
He did it with OPEN SIGHTS?? No scope-with a Sako built Russian bolt action rifle-with a variant of the Russian full sized .30 cartridge
He survived the war despite being shot in the face by what was described as an EXPLODING BULLET?
He is considered one of the most sucessful snipers in history-
the russians being russians made things easier for him by not having white camouflage- Midwinter war in Finland no white camouflage-
-Needless to say the Finns wore white-all white
Simo Häyhä.
There is a Wikipedia article on him.
It's a complicated situation in history (Winter War-Continuation War, Moscow Peace and Paris Treaties), VERY complicated. And it bears learning in great detail if you want to understand the current Finns' mentality.
Of all my Finn friends, some are riflepersons, a few are not. BUT they are ALL really good outdoorsmen/outdoorswomen.
Lots of things to learn.
:-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
-
Yeah complicated history
They border Russia/USSR/Russian Empire and were once subjects (distinctly unenthusiastic subjects) of the Tzar.
My late wife had family letters favorably mentioning the Winter War relief effort mounted by USA citizens to send supplies--food medicine clothing etc to Finns during the Winter war.
We-USA-were always favorably disposed toward Finland-despite their walking a tightrope WW2 and Cold War.Not viewed like Eastern Bloc-not at all.
Slight aside again- how in the world does a country of 5,500,000 people produce all those race drivers-Rally and F1?? Can't be just the cold icy mountain roads-Russia has 30 times the
population and is about as cold-can't think of 1 Russian race driver
I get being hunters shooters -but race car drivers??? WHAT THE HECK?
-
Guys, guys
As the starter of this thread: The last several replies (outside tjk's) are COMPLETELY off topic. If you wish to discuss 20th century history etc., please do it elsewhere. I'm asking moderators to delete the posts that are not about adjusting the T06 trigger, even if I instigated things by posting a general interest photo. That may be gone, as well, for fairness' sake.
-
My, My!!
Aren't you now the TOPIC Police.
Get over it Duke. These things tend to happen.
???
-
Ilimakko
Once you get home and have suitable tools are you going to take it apart and attempt to find the WHY of WHY the trigger went bad ?
It should happen again I guess-maybe at a lower round count- whatever hardening was worn through initially-won't be there.
Curious.