GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Daisy Airguns => Topic started by: Back_Roads on July 10, 2021, 04:23:45 PM
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As promised, I am doing my 2nd Ronno trigger Wedge install, this time on a Winchester 1977XL
I will start this with the stock and forearm removed, if you are not sure how that is done, this mod will be something you would try later on, but if you have successfully torn down an 880, and put it back together and had it work, this mod is for you !
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=7995)
Step 1
Remove the trigger pin and sear pin, the photo shows factory orientation of the knurled end of the pin, they should be tapped out with a small punch from opposite side of the knurled end.
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Step 2
Remove the trigger save the OE spring this will be installed in the pocket on the Wedge, and new spring will replace the trigger spring.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=7996)
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Step 3
Remove the sear pin, this will come out easy, but when installing the spring and wedge, it will be a bit of a juggling act.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=7997)
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Step 4
Remove the sear, and flat spring, discard the flat spring, it is no longer needed.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=7998)
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Step 5
This shows the orientation of the wedge and OEM trigger spring in place, side view then top view asto its location where the flat spring used to reside.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=7999)
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=8000)
I am taking a short break waiting for my camera to recharge, to finish the install with photos for every step I can think of that matters.
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Great write-up so far...
Fingers crossed.....
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Step 6
First Picture shows punch to line up sear.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=8002)
Lining up the wedge and spring under the sear.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=8003)
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Step 7
Use the punch to locate the holes for sear, the wedge needs to be sticking out of the flat spring hole on top at this point to lessen resistance on assembly
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=8003)
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=8004)
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Step 8
Line up holes and insert pin using pin to move the punch out of the hole.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=8007)
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=8008)
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=8009)
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Step 9
Location of wedge, some trimming of this may be necessary to clear the bolt to fully close.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=8010)
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Step 10
Install new spring under trigger in original location.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=8011)
And then you are pretty much done and ready to have fun :)
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=8012)
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Ron feel free to add anything I may have missed, or other tips you may have.
My first one took about an hour to figure out with only written directions from Ron, second time was the same or less but took 2x as long to stop for pictures.
Makes me think is there a contest on who can disassemble an 880 and put it back together the fastest ???
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Thanks for sharing! Can you explain a little more how this improves things, I mean how it works?
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The lighter spring under the trigger lessens 1st stage, and the OEM spring and the wedge block act to balance out pressure on the sear as far as I can figure, Ronno can perhaps define its function better.
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Thanks for sharing! Can you explain a little more how this improves things, I mean how it works?
In the stock assembly, the trigger to sear spring must be strong enough to enable the sear to open the exhaust valve when the trigger is pulled.
That high tension is the reason for the stiff trigger, especially in the 1977.
My method moves the point of force for opening the exhaust valve ahead of the sear pivot.
Once this is done, the only need for a trigger to sear spring is to cock the trigger once the sear is movrd into position by cycling the bolt.
This spring can be about as light as a spring can be so long as it fits with the trigger and sear spring pads.
In fact, if you want to nudge the trigger forward when cocking, you could eliminate that spring altogether.
My spring seat is intended to seat flat in the cavity with the long side flush against the vertical surface by the exhaust valve.
I believe a dab of JB Weld will secure it, but that makes installation trickier.
The spring axis should be parallel to ehr exhaust poppet axis, and the spring end should sit flat against the underside of the sear.
Mr. James is canting it to facilitate installation.....then straightening up somewhat after the sear is installed.
When installed as I intended, there is no protrusion of the seat into the path of the bolt.
It is entirely inside the valve body. In fact there should a bit of a gap where the flat spring used to travel.
For my next assembly I will hold the 1/8" punch in my vise so that I can manipulate the sear with 2 hands.
The design philosophy is sound; the execution is still in development.
But it DOES result in a nice trigger for the 880 platform guns.
I posted some photos in the credit card mod thread, but they are poor.
I will try to take better pix and post to clarify.
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Awesome that was really helpful, thank you!
Were you inspired by other guns that have trigger mechanisms like this? Or did you just come up with it yourself?
What kind of spring are you using for the new trigger/shear spring? I took some measurements and the stock spring is 0.32in OD, 0.24in ID, 20mm length.
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Awesome that was really helpful, thank you!
Were you inspired by other guns that have trigger mechanisms like this? Or did you just come up with it yourself?
What kind of spring are you using for the new trigger/shear spring? I took some measurements and the stock spring is 0.32in OD, 0.24in ID, 20mm length.
I thought it to not be the best design to have the trigger spring having to supply sufficient force to enable the sear to open the exhaust valve.
I originally wanted to insert a divider between the trigger and sear and use 2 springs: one for the trigger and one for the sear.
I could not figger any way to do that that owners could DIY.
This design is all mine, as far as I know........totally original.
I ordered several springs from McMaster Carr; the one I used is stock spring made by Gardner Spring.
I'll have to get the part#, but it has similar I.D. and length as the OEM, just lighter wire for a reduced tension rate.
I have an alternate design in mind that might make installation easier.
However, it would require a mod to the sear that would not be DIY friendly for all.
As Daisy does not sell the sear individually, I would be purchasing many trigger assemblies........I would hate to have to do that.
One note: I have done all my prototyping using old-style cast valve bodies with screw in valves.
I have not tried on a newer valve.
I can't swear that the pocket where the spring seat sits is the same between versions, but I would have to believe that it is...
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What was the resulting trigger pull weight on the Winchester 1977s?
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What was the resulting trigger pull weight on the Winchester 1977s?
I do not have a trigger gage but almost hair is best to describe, you feel a wall and its off, still a bit of first stage but it is more like movement than any resistance.
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my only question would be , is there a loss in velocity?? for all the trigger mods posted yrs ago , there was generally a velocity loss which was more apparent as the pumps went above 10.. Reason being is that the leaf spring along with the trigger spring contribute to the cracking force of the valve .this only affects people looking to mod the gun for power generally.. Anyway , cool design !
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I have not had a chance to crony any that I modded as of yet, but there did not seem to be any loss while I was torture testing the first 880 that I did this mod to.
This seems to keep the same aspects as factor,y as far as sear and valve function.
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thats really good !
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This design changes the point of force on the sear, removing the trigger from that part of the equation.
Sear release function of the sear remains unchanged.
The valve shouldn't see any difference.
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This design changes the point of force on the sear, removing the trigger from that part of the equation.
Sear release function of the sear remains unchanged.
The valve shouldn't see any difference.
OOPS.....Sear release function of the TRIGGER remains unchanged...
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I wonder if I lost any power by sanding down the trigger/sear interface. It definitely improved the pull but I never realized that it could be harming the speed. Makes sense now, since the spring isn't compressed as much at the point of release.
I suppose this mod might actually help me restore power (if I lost any), because the trigger spring is no longer relied on for driving the valve.
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My plan is to shoot some crony strings and get some accuracy target test done this weekend, all I can say for now is my 1977 is much more pleasant to shoot now than before the mod, I shot it maybe 50 times when I got it this year and put it aside until I would have time to tinker with it this winter, but Ronno got me inspired to do it sooner. ;D
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Uploading a video of the trigger in action as I type, Youtube sure is slow, maybe I should of sent the video FedEx ??? ::)
I used a cocktail garnish stick to trip the trigger since I have never though t I needed a trigger gauge ;)
Well here is a target I shot this morning, something to do while waiting for upload to finish . . .
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=8021)
. . . One Hour Later
https://youtu.be/yn3lY-GqD8U (https://youtu.be/yn3lY-GqD8U)
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Nice shootin' !! 10m ?
Pull looks pretty light....
Have you tried to see if over-pumping produces valve lock??
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Nice shootin' !! 10m ?
Pull looks pretty light....
Have you tried to see if over-pumping produces valve lock??
OK just ran it across the crony 15 pumps 840 FPS average zero air retention or valve lock or the like, my typical 7 pumps gets the 9.5 gr. old school Winnie domes cruising right around 700 FPS.
Yes shot at 10 meters for the target.
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Well, alrighty,then!!
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Step 9
Location of wedge, some trimming of this may be necessary to clear the bolt to fully close.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=8010)
As Ron pointed out this should be clear of the bolt, in this instance I trimmed it flush with a razor, I seem to misplaced the trimmed photo.
" Mr. James is canting it to facilitate installation.....then straightening up somewhat after the sear is installed.
When installed as I intended, there is no protrusion of the seat into the path of the bolt.
It is entirely inside the valve body. In fact there should a bit of a gap where the flat spring used to travel."
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First, I REALLY WISH I COULD TAKE PICTURES THAT WERE WORTH A &^^&........
OK.
Here's the latest version of the 880 trigger mod.
Again, note that the pictures spring is the new trigger spring; the original is moved under the sear between the spring seat and the brass locator nub on the sear.
I have learned a few things about drilling holes, mainly that your surface has to be FLAT, if you want the hole to go where you want it.
That being said, I have shortened the spring seat and added a locator nub to the back side of the sear.
That will increase the cost a bit, as Daisy does not sell he sear alone.
Modders will be getting new trigger assemblies....trigger, sear, spring and pins.
That's just the way it is.......
I have a tester in mind. Hopefully he can play with it quickly.
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Looks good Ron, the pin location should be a great improvement.
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nice! what's the main purpose of the pin? Does the spring have a tendency to get stuck/fall out of place otherwise?
Or is it just to make assembly easier?
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Ease of assembly is the main reason, and also insures that nothing gets out of line and possibly cause a misfire, not that there was any obvious issues with the original, with my testing to date.
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^^What he said^^
The initial idea was to make the spring seat taller, with the hole deeper to act as a guide for the spring.
I feared that too much potential rubbing between the spring sides and the sides of the deep hole could interfere with its function.
The nub provides a positive locator for the spring end, and prevents migration to a potentially non-functional location.
I am also considering replacing the current wedge/hole seat with a smaller wedge with a locator nub.
This may reduce the size to make assembly easier and permit the re-installation of the flat spring.
I don't know who would want to use it, but at least the option would still be there........(It's called a "lawyer spring" for a reason...)
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I have also determined that the taller spring seat/guide rocks upward at the back when cocked.
That is what is responsible for the seat sticking out the top and interfering with the bolt like Mr. Back Roads experienced,
The spring, as the valve is cocked, does not move in a linear motion, but rather, an arc.
This causes the guide to rotate slightly, producing the results Mr./ James experienced.
The shorter seat does not do that.
The shorter seat makes the locator boss on the sear necessary.
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Mother Daisy has thrown me a curve.....not all 880 platform sears are identical..
I already knew that the width thru the pivot pin bores differed between the old style and new style guns.
Now, ir has been discovered (rather rudely) that the shape of the shark fin differs also.
This definitely renders them not backward compatible.
So, should I ever decide to market this mod, installers will need to drill a tiny hole to locate the brass spring end nub, and JB Weld it in place.
A template for that hole location would be provided. The hole would measure about .040" dia, and about .040" deep.
Should be diable.
Thanks to Ragboat for the pix. I will ullpad after I shrink them a bit....
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Ragboat's Daisy 880 sear pix.
Sharkfin is most noticeable difference.
Top sear in pic 1 is old style;
Right sear in photo 2 is old style
The fin prohibits the sear from opening the valve completely.
Notching the sear to allow better opening renders cocking difficult.
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Kind of a bummer, almost makes it where the gun should be modded by a tuner, to get proper fitment, and at that, may as well add a barrel stabilizer, AKA tape mod, or at the very lest send the sear in for the mod, to keep shipping lower.
Spent all of yesterday shooting my Winchester 1977XL It is such a pleasure to shoot now, and found great accuracy with Air Arms 10.3 pellets. IMO almost worth the added hassles, and cost. Sure does shoot like a $200.00 PCP now ;D if holes are not touching it was most likely me, not the gun or pellet.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=8031)
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Nice shootin' !!
Well, modded sears can be provided for new style 880's etc, as they are available from Daisy.
However, having users locate and attach their own spring locator nubs would keep the cost of the kit down.
I will have to see if the new style sear is backward compatible with the old style valve.
If it is, then this is a non-issue. However, I suspect tat Daisy altered the hub width for a reason.
If not, old style sears can be provided on an exchange basis.
Drilling a shallow locator hole would not be a difficult task, as I would provide a template to mark the location,
and maybe even supply a drill bit. But, the bit is very thin (.030 - .o40) hence fragile.
Drilling a locator hole is not absolutely necessary; I just find it easier to attach the boss in the correct location if the hole is used.
I am always striving to provide whatever is necessary to implement any repair or mod I sell.
(JB Weld or similar would be left up to the installer....)
I have a mod kit en route to another Beta tester. Lets see how successful he is with his installation....
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So not a total wash 8) just made it more year specific. Still think it is less messing around than the credit card mod, and better results. More testing will tell, hope it works out, so many shooters would love an 880 or the like with such a great trigger.
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When I saw this Trigger Mod I sent Ronno a pm to asking about buying a kit for my 1977 XS. He said he would jut send me one for me to
install and test and report how it worked for me.
First thing to report is that it is not to difficult to install.
I glued the wedge in place with some two part epoxy that I had, I also had to trim some off the top side of the wedge so the bolt would close.
I installed the sear and spring much like Back_Roads did, I found that by putting the sear and spring in part way that I could put
a finish nail through the trigger pin hole to hold it in place, then push it in farther and install the sear pin.
At this point I reassembled the rifle, cocked it pumped it once and pulled the trigger and got a nice loud snap.
Went out to shoot some pellets, this where things did not work right. I cocked it pumped it 6 times put in a pellet and pulled
the trigger, got only a small pop and no pellet came out.
I removed the pellet with a wood dowel.
I cocked the gun and pulled the trigger again got a good snap, repeated the cocking and trigger pulling several times
to get out all the air. Ronno said that we turned it into a repeater!!!
This where I found that the two sears were not exactly the same. I sent Ronno some pictures of my rifle and my sons rifle and
the two sears out of the rifle that he posted.
I found that the sear that Ronno sent me was thicker between the pin hole and the shark fin, so I filed it down so that it was
the same as the one out of my rifle.
Installed the sear and trigger, at this point you can push the shark fin down to cock the rifle pump and pull the trigger, seemed to be dumping
all the sir with three or four pumps. When I put the riffle back together I found that it did not cock so it came back apart and
I did some filing on the shark fin. Put the rifle back together, it is getting easier now that I have done it several times.
So now the rifle the rifle works and shoots fine up to 6 pumps but at 8 pumps it did not dump all the air.
The next step is that Ronno is sending me a brass locator button to put on the original sear out of my 1977 XS.
Now the best part the trigger pull dropped from 6.5 pounds down to a very nice 1.5 pounds.
That's all for now more when get the part from Ronno.
Thanks Ronno
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Thanks, Mr. George.
Thanks for the write-up.
The brass buttons are in the mailbox as we speak.
I am going to move on to another method of anchoring the spring in the valve body cavity.
I will turn a nub on the end of a piece of brass stock, then grind the square shoulder into a wedge that will seat in the cavity on the valve .
I'll probably dimension the boss to be a snug fit at the spring end so as to help keep things together during assembly.
That will eliminate the protrusion that interferes with the bolt problem.
So, rather than a socket for the spring to nest in, it will have a boss at either end ala the original trigger/sear setup, just in a different location...
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Ronno
That sounds like it will work as long as there is enough room so the spring is not completely compressed.
For the locator in the sear what do you think about drilling and taping a 6-32 or smaller hole and using a screw with
maybe a washer under it?
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Ronno
That sounds like it will work as long as there is enough room so the spring is not completely compressed.
For the locator in the sear what do you think about drilling and taping a 6-32 or smaller hole and using a screw with
maybe a washer under it?
1. Springinding should not be a problem.
Actually, this design would potentially make solid compression less of an issue than the wedge/pocket design.
I have to be cautious about the drilled depth of the pocket to avoid breaking out along the sides or bottom.
2. I have considered that method, but I am leery about removing material from the sear; I do not want to potentially
weaken it at the point of maximum force. A rash of broken sears would not be a good thing.
A .030" locator hole of a depth of about .030" should not pose much of a strength problem.
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Hope these bugs can be worked out, So far I have been not having air retention, the 880 I did has been shot daily at work, 10 pumps every time, and the 1977xl has been getting the work out nights and weekends using variable powered levels 5 - 15 pumps, depending on what I was shooting at.
Wonder if there were any other possible causes that caused it to retain air ?? Or just not the exact location of the spring on the sear and it moved with use ?
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Both George and Patrick are seeing a phenomenon I do not yet understand: air retention with higher pressures.
The design of the 880 is such that, once the sear is released, it opens the dump (exhaust) valve and the air is released.
Should be ALL the air is released.......
The only thing I can think of is that friction between the spring in its new location is being inhibited by contact with the pocket walls in the wedge. The spring must be free to traverse its full travel in order to cause the sear to open the valve and keep it open.
Maybe there is some kind of sear bounce going on????
Anyway, at the current failure rate the mod is a non-starter.
The design theory is sound, and Mr. James has proven it on his 2 rifles.
I gotta get this sorted out.........Drawing board, here I come!
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At this time I believe that the problem that I am seeing is caused by the sear, but who knows.
I installed a sear that is different that the original.
The sear only moves until it hits the top of the valve body, I removed some metal from that point on he sear and the rifle worked fine
at 6 pumps but not at 8 pumps, only tried it once at 8 pumps.
I am going to wait for the brass locator from Ronno so I can try the rifle with the original sear, If there are still problems
holding air we can look for other things.
I am happy to be a small part of this process.
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OK.
I believe this method to be the solution.
The prototype is made from brass, as I have a difficult time turning delrin...
The seat will actually sit deeper in the valve body than shown.
But, If I can hit upon the proper dimensions, 3D printing will be the answer.
If the spring needs more tension, the seat can be made taller if there is room between the coils.
If the coils become bound when installed, the seat can be made a tad shorter.
Or, a coil could be nipped off, the end ground, and the spring stretched a tad to increase tension...
Is the the "R" or the "D" ??
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That brass spring holder look like it should work if it is not sticking out on the top side of the valve body where
the delrin wedge did. Will the brass be glued in place like the delrin wedge?
You said something about sear bounce, I don't know how that happens but something was happening when I first put my rifle
together and pumped it 4 times and was getting a loud pop each time I cocked and pulled the trigger for 3 or 4 times.
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That brass spring holder look like it should work if it is not sticking out on the top side of the valve body where
the delrin wedge did. Will the brass be glued in place like the delrin wedge?
The seat can be glued in, but only as an aid to assembly.
If I get it 3D printed, the width of the base can me widened to give a friction fit in the cavity.
The base leg does not protrude out the opening.
You said something about sear bounce, I don't know how that happens but something was happening when I first put my rifle
together and pumped it 4 times and was getting a loud pop each time I cocked and pulled the trigger for 3 or 4 times.
Sear bounce is just something I made up...I just can't explain how the valve can close again and retain air....
The valve must not be opening far enough and pressure on the stem side of the poppet forcing it closed again....
Back_Roads has tested up to 15 pumps ans never retained any air....
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Alright....I think I'm closing in on it.
I installed the brass seat, but it was a tad too tall and the spring bound.
So, I ground it down, more than I had intended, but I tried it anyway.
It WORKS!
Pretty easy to install, and retains NO air even at 15 pumps (tough to do with the flexy plastic pump handle,) with NO loss in velocity.
So, I need to make a couple more brass seats and send off to the Beta testers. Then, we'll see where we go from there.
FWIW, I tested the original plastic wedge setup that I had installed on a metal receiver/pump handle 880...the original test bed.
I could NOT bet it to retain air even at 15 pumps.
However, the mod needs to be easily and reliably installed by DIYers, and I think the brass seat with the spring nub is way more reliable than the plastic wedge with the spring cavity.
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Sounds like great progress, just a wait for results from the next round of installation test 8) I can not be happier with the proto types I installed, hope this makes it big, every daisy should have this :)
I take that back I do keep one with factory trigger as a comparison demo.
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At this time I believe that the problem that I am seeing is caused by the sear, but who knows.
I installed a sear that is different that the original.
The sear only moves until it hits the top of the valve body, I removed some metal from that point on he sear and the rifle worked fine
at 6 pumps but not at 8 pumps, only tried it once at 8 pumps.
I am going to wait for the brass locator from Ronno so I can try the rifle with the original sear, If there are still problems
holding air we can look for other things.
I am happy to be a small part of this process.
So I received the Brass locator from Ronno.
I drilled the tiny hole in the sear from my 1977 XS used some super glue to secure the brass locator in place.
It is an easy step drilling and gluing the brass locator in place.
Put the rifle back together and tested at 4-6 and 10 pumps, had no air retention like before, only a loud snap with the first
trigger pull, no snap when cocking and pulling the trigger the second time.
So the sear was the problem, and Ronno's Mod is a success, if you want to drop the trigger pull of your 1977 XS from
6.5 pounds down to 1.5 pounds got one.
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8) ;D
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One gun I would like to test this in yet is a Barra 1866, not sure if this will be compatible, but this one has a super stiff crunchy trigger, needs help bad.
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One gun I would like to test this in yet is a Barra 1866, not sure if this will be compatible, but this one has a super stiff crunchy trigger, needs help bad.
I have never opened one up, but definitely does not have the following of the millions of 880 platform guns out there.
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Some updates...
The new brass spring wedge + sear w/ locator nub is a success. No more air retention issues for me. I should note that I tried the new wedge without the sear+nub, and I was still getting retention, so I think the locator nub on the sear is key to making sure the spring moves appropriately.
The trigger is very light now. Actually it's a little too light haha. That's my fault though, because I'm already working with a modified trigger. I had sanded it down from 2mm to 1.2mm, to reduce travel and also reduce the required pull force.
(pic stolen from geo's blog, I sanded down the protruding part on the trigger, so the top part of the left green line).
With an unmodified trigger I think this is going to be golden. What I ended up doing for now, is leaving the wedge in, with a lighter spring, and then using the stock spring on my trigger. This gives me the same pull/travel as I had before, but the extra spring makes sure that the valve opens quickly and fully. I wish I had a chronograph to test things, but I think there's a slight improvement over what I had before. In other words my trigger sanding may have weakened the gun a little, since the trigger spring is under less tension when it fires, and therefore doesn't hit the valve open as hard, ron's extra spring helps alleviate that, this is all in theory...
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Thanks, guys.
I believe that in any developmental process, failures are just as important as successes, as long as they can be overcome.
You need to know what does NOT work in order to arrive at what DOES.
Coil springs are pretty much designed to work along one axis or arc; establishing and limiting travel to that path is crucial.
Putting the spring in the proper location at each end and keeping it there does the trick.
My method is the same used by Daisy in their original design; same method; different location.
I have one more Beta tester for the mod.
If he achieves the same success, I will move into the next phase....manufacturing.
Please stay tuned...........
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This is big for Daisy shooters for sure, hope this proceeds along with out many more snags. Ronno put me down for one you get to MFG.
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Here's a short video of the trigger pull with the mod. I'm going to install a fresh trigger with it, instead of sanded down one, and I think it should give me a little more travel.
https://youtu.be/EYjavIeAnfg (https://youtu.be/EYjavIeAnfg)
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Parts on order for trial run.............
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It has been determined that this mod, in its current form, is not suitable for those super-early
880/881's that did NOT have the flat spring.
The cavity in which the wedge and spring are placed is way too shallow ........
This will not permit the original spring to be installed without binding.
However, as this is an extreme minority of 880's etc. out there, i am not overly concerned.
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My old ones do just fine, must be years of shooting, and I would not want to do this to a rarer model for reasons of originality.
Is there a specific year to draw the line for those wanting a great trigger ?
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My old ones do just fine, must be years of shooting, and I would not want to do this to a rarer model for reasons of originality.
Is there a specific year to draw the line for those wanting a great trigger ?
I am not up on what years used the round exhaust valve and no flat spring.
Probably the same ones that used the real funky chamber seal and the plastic pump handle retainer....
From the inception of the 880 (1971 ??) til ....?????????
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I got a fresh trigger installed yesterday with Ronno's mod.
To recap, previously I was using my modified trigger with Ronno's mod, and it was way too light. My trigger had been sanded down, so when that was combined with Ronno's mod it was really delicate. Some might prefer that, but I wanted to have a little more travel.
I'm getting pretty fast at the swaps, I can get things changed over and re-assembled in a few minutes now.
So I installed the unmodified trigger and gave it another shot. It's great, I like having more travel. I think I want a slightly stronger spring, so I might play around with some different options from McMaster-Carr. Once I find the right spring, I'm going to prefer this setup over the sanded down trigger mod. I want something that's lighter than the stock trigger spring but heavier than the current one I have installed. Maybe like halfway between.
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Did some digging came up with ???
http://forum.daisymuseum.com/daisy-model-880-dating-and-variation-info_topic8044.html (http://forum.daisymuseum.com/daisy-model-880-dating-and-variation-info_topic8044.html)
My guess is 1985 and newer :-\
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Did some digging came up with ???
http://forum.daisymuseum.com/daisy-model-880-dating-and-variation-info_topic8044.html (http://forum.daisymuseum.com/daisy-model-880-dating-and-variation-info_topic8044.html)
My guess is 1985 and newer :-\
Well, the clamp-on barrel ended in '82, and I have several of those w/flat springs.
My guess is more like 1975 when the lever retention changed to the rear spring-loaded latch.
Mark (cobalt327) may have a better handle on things.....
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So I installed the unmodified trigger and gave it another shot. It's great, I like having more travel. I think I want a slightly stronger spring, so I might play around with some different options from McMaster-Carr. Once I find the right spring, I'm going to prefer this setup over the sanded down trigger mod. I want something that's lighter than the stock trigger spring but heavier than the current one I have installed. Maybe like halfway between.
That's a good situation to be in.
It will be easy to make the pull a bit heavier.
Either a heavier spring, or a longer one of the same construction.
Kinda like making a board shorter...easier than making it longer........
Anyway, it will possibly be an installer-selected option.
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That's a good situation to be in.
I agree!
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Ragboat's Daisy 880 sear pix.
Sharkfin is most noticeable difference.
Top sear in pic 1 is old style;
Right sear in photo 2 is old style
The fin prohibits the sear from opening the valve completely.
Notching the sear to allow better opening renders cocking difficult.
The difference is between U.S.made sears and those made overseas.
THey have the same part #, but are NOT interchangeable.........
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The difference is between U.S.made sears and those made overseas.
THey have the same part #, but are NOT interchangeable.........
I was able to modify a IU.S.made sear by grinding off the little platform just ahead of the shark fin.
That allowed an increase in travel to open the exhaust valve.
Worked flawlessly in a Model 35.
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I have just took delivery of (4) Ronno6 Daisy trigger kits! Have a flock of Daisy pampers that need GOOD triggers...and hopefully a Daisy 901 on the way soon.
First to get a "kit" is my Daisy 35, it's less than 6 weeks old. The kit was easy to install, and I got it installed on the same evening the kits came in the mail.
Results:..... Amazing!!
I have borrowed my brothers RCBS trigger guage the day After I did the trigger, so I did not get a "before" weight, but it is now only a 10 OUNCE trigger! Every thing else is stock and this Daisy 35 has about 300 rounds thru it so it is starting to smooth up some, but the only thing I did while I was inside besides the kit install is I found a little drop of clean Daisy grease (stuck to inside of receiver) and I scooped that up with a toothpick and added it to the trigger sear engagement, but it was not dry from the factory. Also I did the "tape mod" to the barrel while I was in there.
I need to zero my new AO scope and do some shooting, but I did test fire after kit install with both 10 and 15 pumps, and the 35 is dumping 100% of its air, so it seems the kits are rock solid on a Daisy 35.
I will put a bunch of rounds thru it Sunday if it's not raining here.
The Next gun to get a kit is my 880, I will report back as all the Daisy triggers get fixed by Ronno's kit.
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Side Note:
I did absolutely believe the 10oz number the RCBS gauge gave me, however as this is not my personal trigger gauge, I did measure my stock 880 trigger and got 6.25lb and my New 1977xs measured 7.2 lb
Here is a photo of the trigger gauge I used.
I think this kit more typically gives a 1 to 1.5 lb trigger pull, not sure why my 35 gave me 10 ounces, but you sure will not catch me complaining! :D
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Trigger kits are now available in the Hobbyist Classifieds Gate
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My lucky day , ordered 2, as I have a couple more 880s to sweeten up with this trigger. 8)
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=191295.msg156213426#msg156213426 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=191295.msg156213426#msg156213426)
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There are 2 important points which I must touch upon:
1. Installation of the 880 Trigger Mod pretty much necessitates the elimination of the flat spring.
That shouldn't be a big deal as it is always the first thing to be removed when attempting to improve the trigger.
I just thought I had better mention it...
2. VERY EARLY 880's that do NOT have the flat springs cannot use the Mod Kit in its present form.
If original, these will have round screw in exhaust valves. There is not sufficient depth in the cavity in the
valve body for the new sear valve spring.
Hopefully, these things don't interfere with anyone's plans to improve their triggers.....
This kit will work on: Daisy 880,881,822,882,901,917,920,970,922,920,177X,22X, 22SG,35 and I believe on the 1910 BSA rifle.
Winchester 977XS and 1977XS
There may be others..............
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Here are the 2 valves with regard to the flat spring:
The one on the left had the flat spring; the trigger mod fits this style
The valve on the right never had the flat spring; the mod will mot work on this valve.
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I strongly suspect the kit will also fit the Daisy 2840, from my understanding the 2840 IS a 1910 BSA with a camo stock and the BSA emblem removed.
I was inside a 1910 BSA and it looks exactly like a Daisy 35....only a (single-pump) model.
That's quite a list of Daisy airguns, I am going to have to Google some of those other models to see what they are.
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Hey guys. Full disclosure, I have not read this whole thread. But I am trying to install into my 22sg. The sear will not fit. It measures 0.495" (dial caliper) and the slot in the receiver measures 0.460". The original sear measures 0.439" I can file it to fit, but I thought maybe I should ask first. Is that the correct method? Thanks.
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That one is an oddball...I thought I had separated it from the flock....
I don't even know where it came from...
I would say that it came from a 1977, however Daisy uses the same part # for that trigger assy as all other 880's.
Just whittle it down to fit.........or I'll send you a replacement.
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New sear sent.
I believe the 1977 sear to be the culprit.
I think I have modded a 1977 with a replacement (part currently supplied by Daisy) Nd it worked.
I'll have to check that.
If the existing Daisy inventory will not work in the 1977, then installers will have to locate and install the spring boss on their won sears.
Not a difficult process........
Point is interest, tho, is will Daisy ever supply the 1977 style part??
If so, will they discontinue the old??
Hmm...........
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Thanks for all the help working through this Ron.
To be honest, I am not that familiar with the 880 platform. My 22SG was the first airgun I bought as an adult, and it was just to kill pests close to buildings, where I thought my 22lr might damage the building. Turns out, I have used it for that purpose once (bat got in the house, shot it off a window frame without damaging the frame. Multi pump pneumatic for the win. ;) ) I have shot it quite a lot, but have always hated the trigger. So I have high hopes of getting this figured out.
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it'll be an amazing transformation....
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I thought the mod design was mature.
Then i encountered another red-headed step child in the form of a late model 880.
That sucker would NOT dump all the air after 6 pumps, and went into all out valve lock at 10.
So, another new spring and a different spring pad for the sear and and it is (again) off and running!
The spring is shorter and stiffer, so the boss had to make up the difference in order to properly load the spring.
it now bangs quite nicely even at 15 pumps!
Hopefully this will do it!
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FWIW...the correct seat cured Captain Brave's 22SG.
I have finally ordered a trigger pull gauge so that I can quantify any changes to the trigger pull due to stronger sear springs.
The current configuration is working in all 880 series rifles, but I want to see what the pull weight is.
What do y'all consider to be a good pull weight??
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I don't know what's up with my phone, but two times I typed up a detailed reply, just to have it disappear before i could post it.
Long story short, it works. I'll try to get more details posted if this works
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Ronno6 and all,
Sorry for the late reply.
My trigger now works. I clipped about 1 coil off the end of the spring that came in the trigger kit, and filed it flat. Then it cocked like it should. The spring was near coil bind, but I imagine that would be what you would want anyway.
I don't know what the trigger pull is, but it is ALOT better than it was. Don't get me wrong, it isn't a synrod trigger, but I wouldn't expect it to be, given that the trigger on the synrod probably costs only a little less than what the whole 22SG did. Compared to what it was though, this is a dramatic improvement. Well worth the cost of the kit and the time to install.
Thanks again Ronno6
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Those springs are designed to be used compressed to a bound length without taking set.
I now trim and grind the ends to promote being able to cock to trigger latching.
Input from you early testers is extremely valuable, and I think you.
I am going to relegate this mod kit to being installed on 880's and 1977's that I will be updating/improving and selling...I have a ton of them!
The kit is for sale for the time being on ebay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/234217993302?hash=item36887af456:g:-qAAAOSwoz5hWvbg (https://www.ebay.com/itm/234217993302?hash=item36887af456:g:-qAAAOSwoz5hWvbg)
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Hi Guys.
I ordered Ron's kit last month from Ebay and finally got around to installing it this past weekend. I can't say installation was easy. I'd lost the instructions that came with it. Ron was helpful in emailing me another set of instructions once I'd let him know about it. Once I figured out where the wedge was supposed to go putting the sear pin back in wasn't too difficult. Getting the new trigger assembly and the trigger pin back in was a lot trickier.
Tried it out. Had to sight my Hatsan 3-9X40mmAO back in again anyway after remounting it on my Winnie at a preliminary range of 10 yards.
THAT TRIGGER IS NOW AMAZINGLY LIGHT!
Maybe too light. It's literally a hair trigger now.
But, its a LONG hair trigger pull. Is there any way to shorten the length of travel?
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Seems strange, not sure if there was a change in the design from the prototypes I have installed, as my Winnie has a shorted trigger pull then my 880 I did the mod to. I do have 2 of his new kits but have not gotten to doing an install on them as of yet.
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Nuttin' in my design alters the stock trigger pull............
I don't even think that to be possible.
Any mod that shortens the pull would most probably render the safety non-operable.
EZ to increase pull weight with a heavier trigger spring.
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Nuttin' in my design alters the stock trigger pull............
I don't even think that to be possible.
Any mod that shortens the pull would most probably render the safety non-operable.
EZ to increase pull weight with a heavier trigger spring.
I'm not complaining about your trigger kit. I like it just fine. Before I ordered your kit, I had done the credit card fix and removed the flat spring of my Winnie. Those mods took off approximately 2 lbs off the trigger pull. Interestingly, the 2 mods turned the single stage trigger into a 2 stage trigger. Mushy 1st stage, hit a wall, then touch it off to fire.
It wasn't bad for bench resting. Sucky for offhand shots while hunting though. Point is, the trigger pull wasn't that long or didn't seem to be. It's back to being a single stage pull now. Sort of.
I've noticed a different wall of sorts. I can pull the trigger halfway like I could before w/ my previous mod. The trigger stays in place. I don't know yet if it will stay in place while I'm hunting. I'll find that out later.
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Seems strange, not sure if there was a change in the design from the prototypes I have installed, as my Winnie has a shorted trigger pull then my 880 I did the mod to. I do have 2 of his new kits but have not gotten to doing an install on them as of yet.
I think what it is, is that my perception of the trigger travel has changed. With the normal 7+ lb pull (and/or the slightly modded 5-5.5 lb pull), when the rifle discharges, I never noticed if there is any trigger over travel.
Now that there is no resistance as the trigger is pulled, I'm more aware of when the rifle fires and it seems to me there is a little over travel after the rifle has discharged.
I'll have to pay more attention to my follow through at worst. Pity Daisy / Winchester doesn't make over travel stops like Crosman does.
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Can't say as I have ever given any consideration to trigger overtravel..
Once the gun had fired, I quit pullin'.....kinda like always finding something in the last place you look....
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Can't say as I have ever given any consideration to trigger overtravel..
Once the gun had fired, I quit pullin'.....kinda like always finding something in the last place you look....
Has anyone chronied the 1977 lately, Ron? I'd really like to know the approx velocity of 10+ gr pellets at 7 pumps to have the data to plug into Chairgun. I *think* its around 650 fps. I'm hoping to get an accurate 35-40 yards out of it w/ that.
Like that of many others mine does a heck of a job at 25-30 yards w/ 7.56 gr Daisy wads, but I'd really like to use Crosman 10.5, Jsb 10.3, etc., with it instead.
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Dunno.....I don't think I have any .177 pellets that weigh that much.........
Maybe someone else has had experience ??
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I can run some across the crony today, IIR I found the 13.4 gr JSB .177 are the most accurate pellet I have shot out of my 1977, I will report back on the velocities in a few hours.
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I can run some across the crony today, IIR I found the 13.4 gr JSB .177 are the most accurate pellet I have shot out of my 1977, I will report back on the velocities in a few hours.
OK Here is what I got for now.
Crosman 10.5 dome 8 pumps 694 FPS
10 pumps 738 FPS
Opsi I went 8 pumps, but got the velocity you are after at 10
Benjamin 7.9 dome 8 pumps 730 FPS
10 pumps 812 FPS
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I can run some across the crony today, IIR I found the 13.4 gr JSB .177 are the most accurate pellet I have shot out of my 1977, I will report back on the velocities in a few hours.
OK Here is what I got for now.
Crosman 10.5 dome 8 pumps 694 FPS
10 pumps 738 FPS
Opsi I went 8 pumps, but got the velocity you are after at 10
Benjamin 7.9 dome 8 pumps 730 FPS
10 pumps 812 FPS
That's pretty close to what I was looking for. Thanks.
I wanted to know what the approx velocity is w/ 10+ gr at 7 pumps. I'd guesstimated it to be around 650 fps.
13.4 gr Jsb's? Might have to try some of those. H&N 11.57 gr Silver Points are on my bucket list. As are their 10.03 gr Hornets.
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I can run some across the crony today, IIR I found the 13.4 gr JSB .177 are the most accurate pellet I have shot out of my 1977, I will report back on the velocities in a few hours.
OK Here is what I got for now.
Crosman 10.5 dome 8 pumps 694 FPS
10 pumps 738 FPS
Opsi I went 8 pumps, but got the velocity you are after at 10
Benjamin 7.9 dome 8 pumps 730 FPS
10 pumps 812 FPS
That's pretty close to what I was looking for. Thanks.
I wanted to know what the approx velocity is w/ 10+ gr at 7 pumps. I'd guesstimated it to be around 650 fps.
13.4 gr Jsb's? Might have to try some of those. H&N 11.57 gr Silver Points are on my bucket list. As are their 10.03 gr Hornets.
I can do some more test and get the pumps right, and add a few other pellets to this, will be in the basement range playing with my new pp700 later on.
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I can run some across the crony today, IIR I found the 13.4 gr JSB .177 are the most accurate pellet I have shot out of my 1977, I will report back on the velocities in a few hours.
OK Here is what I got for now.
Crosman 10.5 dome 8 pumps 694 FPS
10 pumps 738 FPS
Opsi I went 8 pumps, but got the velocity you are after at 10
Benjamin 7.9 dome 8 pumps 730 FPS
10 pumps 812 FPS
That's pretty close to what I was looking for. Thanks.
I wanted to know what the approx velocity is w/ 10+ gr at 7 pumps. I'd guesstimated it to be around 650 fps.
13.4 gr Jsb's? Might have to try some of those. H&N 11.57 gr Silver Points are on my bucket list. As are their 10.03 gr Hornets.
I can do some more test and get the pumps right, and add a few other pellets to this, will be in the basement range playing with my new pp700 later on.
That would be great, James. (I had no idea Benjamin was still making the 7.9 gr dome after Crosman discontinued production of that pellet).
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I can run some across the crony today, IIR I found the 13.4 gr JSB .177 are the most accurate pellet I have shot out of my 1977, I will report back on the velocities in a few hours.
OK Here is what I got for now.
Crosman 10.5 dome 8 pumps 694 FPS
10 pumps 738 FPS
Opsi I went 8 pumps, but got the velocity you are after at 10
Benjamin 7.9 dome 8 pumps 730 FPS
10 pumps 812 FPS
That's pretty close to what I was looking for. Thanks.
I wanted to know what the approx velocity is w/ 10+ gr at 7 pumps. I'd guesstimated it to be around 650 fps.
13.4 gr Jsb's? Might have to try some of those. H&N 11.57 gr Silver Points are on my bucket list. As are their 10.03 gr Hornets.
I can do some more test and get the pumps right, and add a few other pellets to this, will be in the basement range playing with my new pp700 later on.
I guess you're having lots of fun with your new PP700? It is WAYYY too windy for target practice where I live. 15 mph wind from the SSW.
You're right about the AA 10.3's. My Winnie likes the Jsb 10.3's. I'm definitely going to have to take advantage of PA's next 10% off sale and order the 4 for 3.
Airgun Detective said in his 1977 vs 880 vid that RWS 8.3's were good for 806 fps / 12 fpe using 10 pumps. He also used that pellet for his accuracy test where it did a 0.51 group at 20 yards.
Even without Ronno's trigger fix. Bet it'd do better now, huh?
I need to stock up on those 8.3's too. I have a Lego 1389 hosp sniper that also likes them.
Eeek! Two 4 for 3 orders.
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I can run some across the crony today, IIR I found the 13.4 gr JSB .177 are the most accurate pellet I have shot out of my 1977, I will report back on the velocities in a few hours.
OK Here is what I got for now.
Crosman 10.5 dome 8 pumps 694 FPS
10 pumps 738 FPS
Opsi I went 8 pumps, but got the velocity you are after at 10
Benjamin 7.9 dome 8 pumps 730 FPS
10 pumps 812 FPS
That's pretty close to what I was looking for. Thanks.
I wanted to know what the approx velocity is w/ 10+ gr at 7 pumps. I'd guesstimated it to be around 650 fps.
13.4 gr Jsb's? Might have to try some of those. H&N 11.57 gr Silver Points are on my bucket list. As are their 10.03 gr Hornets.
I can do some more test and get the pumps right, and add a few other pellets to this, will be in the basement range playing with my new pp700 later on.
I guess you're having lots of fun with your new PP700? It is WAYYY too windy for target practice where I live. 15 mph wind from the SSW.
You're right about the AA 10.3's. My Winnie likes the Jsb 10.3's. I'm definitely going to have to take advantage of PA's next 10% off sale and order the 4 for 3.
Airgun Detective said in his 1977 vs 880 vid that RWS 8.3's were good for 806 fps / 12 fpe using 10 pumps. He also used that pellet for his accuracy test where it did a 0.51 group at 20 yards.
Even without Ronno's trigger fix. Bet it'd do better now, huh?
I need to stock up on those 8.3's too. I have a Lego 1389 hosp sniper that also likes them.
Eeek! Two 4 for 3 orders.
Actually have not done much shooting, except for a friends Gamo Mach1, that I am trouble shooting <` see the pun ??? for him, next step is a teardown and seal replacement.
I will get back to shooting the 1977 while I await Gamo seals. Today may just be the day, if not I have a week off to get there.
Have you seen my Daisy barrel stabilizing mod using sink washers trimmed to fit the barrel and shroud right behind the front sight, similar to the barrel tape mod but much more secure, and no sticky tape mess to deal with when servicing the gun.
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I can run some across the crony today, IIR I found the 13.4 gr JSB .177 are the most accurate pellet I have shot out of my 1977, I will report back on the velocities in a few hours.
OK Here is what I got for now.
Crosman 10.5 dome 8 pumps 694 FPS
10 pumps 738 FPS
Opsi I went 8 pumps, but got the velocity you are after at 10
Benjamin 7.9 dome 8 pumps 730 FPS
10 pumps 812 FPS
That's pretty close to what I was looking for. Thanks.
I wanted to know what the approx velocity is w/ 10+ gr at 7 pumps. I'd guesstimated it to be around 650 fps.
13.4 gr Jsb's? Might have to try some of those. H&N 11.57 gr Silver Points are on my bucket list. As are their 10.03 gr Hornets.
I can do some more test and get the pumps right, and add a few other pellets to this, will be in the basement range playing with my new pp700 later on.
I guess you're having lots of fun with your new PP700? It is WAYYY too windy for target practice where I live. 15 mph wind from the SSW.
You're right about the AA 10.3's. My Winnie likes the Jsb 10.3's. I'm definitely going to have to take advantage of PA's next 10% off sale and order the 4 for 3.
Airgun Detective said in his 1977 vs 880 vid that RWS 8.3's were good for 806 fps / 12 fpe using 10 pumps. He also used that pellet for his accuracy test where it did a 0.51 group at 20 yards.
Even without Ronno's trigger fix. Bet it'd do better now, huh?
I need to stock up on those 8.3's too. I have a Lego 1389 hosp sniper that also likes them.
Eeek! Two 4 for 3 orders.
Actually have not done much shooting, except for a friends Gamo Mach1, that I am trouble shooting <` see the pun ??? for him, next step is a teardown and seal replacement.
I will get back to shooting the 1977 while I await Gamo seals. Today may just be the day, if not I have a week off to get there.
Have you seen my Daisy barrel stabilizing mod using sink washers trimmed to fit the barrel and shroud right behind the front sight, similar to the barrel tape mod but much more secure, and no sticky tape mess to deal with when servicing the gun.
I have no need for that barrel stabilizing mod, but thanks anyway. I have a LDC on mine to stabilize the barrel. Works great. Mine is quiet and accurate. It usually does (or did) 1 inch groups at 25 yards using Daisy 7.87 wads and 5 pumps. Groups with the RWS 8.3 were slightly larger. That was with the somewhat modified, pre Ronno trigger mod, trigger.
We finally had the wind die off for a bit yesterday and I sighted it in at 25 yards using RWS 8.3's at 7 pumps. Groups were 0.75 in size. I'm guessing my Winnie likes 7 pumps better than 5 pumps at that range with that particular pellet and I'm definitely liking that Ronno kit modded trigger in it.
I'd wanted to try the 10.5 gr Crosman dome in it, but I couldn't find them. I'm taking that as a sign that I need to order more of them.
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I'd wanted to try the 10.5 gr Crosman dome in it, but I couldn't find them. I'm taking that as a sign that I need to order more of them.
Found my missing ziploc bag of box 10.5's. There's around 700 pellets left. Plenty to wring out the Winnie with them. See how they compare to the 0.75 groups the Rws 8.3's do at 25 yards.