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Target Shooting Matches, Discussion & Events => Target Shooting Discussion Gate => Topic started by: bryan123 on July 09, 2021, 03:01:28 PM
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Hi,
I'm a somewhat regular participant in the 10m offhand rifle shooting matches with my CMP 853 with the 5899 open sights that came with it. I'd like to improve my scores with the small Olympic size targets. My personal best is 183/200 but my average score is somewhat lower.
Would my consistency improve by upgrading to the sights that come with the 753? I understand that I would need to change the front sight as well.
Also does anyone know if the Williams peep sights would work with the 853 and the stock front sight and would this be something worth trying?
At this point I would rather stick with open sights than a scope. Thanks for any advice.
Bryan
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Work on quickly and instinctively your "Natural Point of Aim"
Dont hold the gun "On target" for long periods, it'll tire you. Find your NPA, take the shot as soon as possible (but dont rush it). Understand how your gun "wobbles" over the target, and learn to anticipate when that wobble is over the bull
Practice getting ONE thing better in your form/stance/trigger/sight picture etc for every session your shooting that ISNT for record. Develop a routine when your on the line...do everything the same way every time. Consistnecy is the goal.
Practice more, but practice smart. Any excuse to shoot more, right? :)
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Work on quickly and instinctively establishing your "Natural Point of Aim"
Dont hold the gun "On target" for long periods, it'll tire you. Find your NPA, take the shot as soon as possible (but dont rush it). Understand how your gun "wobbles" over the target, and learn to anticipate when that wobble is over the bull
Practice getting ONE thing better in your form/stance/trigger/sight picture etc for every session your shooting that ISNT for record. Develop a routine when your on the line...do everything the same way every time. Consistnecy is the goal.
Practice more, but practice smart. Any excuse to shoot more, right? :)
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Yup pretend that target just ate all your garden , and needs to die with every kill shot, otherwise what did that paper ever do to you ;)
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While I prefer the 753 sights, the 853 sight are good enough for most people. But your choice.
My recommendations:
First, get this book:
http://www.pilkguns.com/store/Air-Rifle-Shooting-by-Heinz-Reinkemeyer-Gaby-Buhlmann-and-Maik-Eckhardt-With-guest-contributions-from-Claudia-Kulla-and-Uwe-Linn-p84810151 (http://www.pilkguns.com/store/Air-Rifle-Shooting-by-Heinz-Reinkemeyer-Gaby-Buhlmann-and-Maik-Eckhardt-With-guest-contributions-from-Claudia-Kulla-and-Uwe-Linn-p84810151)
or:
http://www.pilkguns.com/store/Ways-of-the-Rifle-by-Gaby-Buhlman-Heinz-Reinkemeyer-Maik-Eckhardt-p84810146 (http://www.pilkguns.com/store/Ways-of-the-Rifle-by-Gaby-Buhlman-Heinz-Reinkemeyer-Maik-Eckhardt-p84810146)
I have both. "Air Rifle Shooting" is the later book, and it only air rifle.
Short of having a coach, I think this is probably one of the better learning resources. I wish I had it when I started.
Next:
Make sure that you have the trigger mod done.
The #1 thing in that mod is that the trigger pull is SMOOTH. IMHO, compared to the smoothness of the pull, the weight and travel distance do not matter.
My 953 without the trigger mod was so bad that my mind was constantly distracted fighting the trigger, not holding the sight picture.
Random things to think about/consider/do:
- Get a pair of skateboard shoes. The reason is the sole is FLAT. If the sole of your shoe is not flat, or the heel is worn, you WILL rock, and that will impact your scores.
- Stand on a SOLID LEVEL surface. Again so you do not rock or are dealing with difficult surface to shoot from.
- Make sure you have enough light on the target, so there is enough contrast between the paper and the black bull.
- The diameter of your front insert should be large enough that it contains the bull most of the time, even though you wobble. If you are having a bad day, and wobble more, just use a larger size insert. If you are not sure of what size to use, use the larger size.
- I shoot air rifle with ear plugs. This reduces the rifle's firing sound and makes it easier to shoot better. This is more obvious indoors than outdoors. I use ear plugs because ear muffs gets in the way of the rifle stock.
- STUDY the stance in the book. For stability, you want bone on bone, or tension on tendon. You do NOT want to use muscle to hold up the rifle, because muscles get tired and wobble.
- The books are German, and teach the European stance; vertical front leg, angled rear leg, with most of the weight on the front leg. The American stance is both legs angled similar, body in the middle, with the weight about even on both legs. Neither is better, just different. Figure out which you feel more comfortable with, and go with it.
I learned the American stance, then changed to the European stance cuz it felt better "for ME."
- Get your shot off within about 6 seconds. The longer you hold the worse your wobble gets.
- DRY FIRE. IMHO, one of the best ways to improve. The 853 is really easy to dry fire, you just pull the bolt, to cock the striker. Work on smooth trigger pull and holding the sight picture.
- My method is to hold the sight picture, start the trigger pull, then put 100% of my concentration into holding the sight picture. If you think about the trigger for an instant, that means you are NOT concentrating on the sight picture.
- Practice technique: When you practice, score the shots as 0 or 1. Look at your target and see where most of your shots are. Then pick a ring that about 70% of your shots are in.
If 70% of the shots are within the 7 ring, use that.
The goal is to shoot a target and try to keep ALL the shots inside the 7 ring.
A shot inside the 7 ring = 1, outside the 7 ring = 0.
What you are trying to do is TIGHTEN your group, and eliminate the flyers. It is the flyers that will kill your scores. If you can HOLD the 7 ring, you will have shots in the 8, 9 and 10 rings.
As you get better, you move to the next inside ring, to keep pushing yourself to improve.
There is a mental trick involved. By not scoring by ring, you stop thinking 10-ring, or a 10 will make up for a 4. You either got a shot inside the ring or not.
In fact you can keep shooting at the same target all day, and blow out the target, if you can hold that ring. If you shoot 50 shots on the target, and 5 are outside the 7 ring, then you scored 45.
The goal is not to get to 0 outside shots, but to get to a low single digit number. And hold that for a few sessions.
Then go to the next ring in, the 8 ring, and do it all over again.
The reason is, to keep you challenged. If you hit zero outside shots, you may start to slack off.
The exception is if you shoot flyers. If you shoot something way out of your scoring ring, then you need to work on consistency, to get the flyers under control, before moving to an inner ring.
- Something my old coach told me. If you want to improve, you have to shoot at least 4x a week. Less than that and you will just maintain your level. I think we shot about 100 shots at each weekly practice session. A regulation match is 60 shots.
- One of the HARDEST thing that I had to learn, was to abort the shot.
If things do not seem right, or you are wobbling too much, ABORT the shot, reset, and start over.
Pushing through to force the shot, usually results in a BAD shot.
- If your practice is LOUSEY, STOP. If you keep going, you may reinforce BAD habits.
We all have bad days. Rest and try again the next day.
Sometimes a bad day happens because of what you do before shooting. Example, when I use the "weed wacker" my arms feel like they are vibrating for the next 12 hours, and it is useless to try to shoot.
- Tip: Keep a shooting diary/record.
Date, time, temp, weather, how you feel, changes you make to the gun, changes you make to your shooting (stance, grip, etc), etc. Score.
These notes may tell you things you may not be aware of.
Example: I am NOT a morning person, but looking at my records showed me very clearly, that my best scores were shot in the morning. So if I want to shoot for score, I do it in the morning.
It is also great to see that your practice has gone from the 6 ring down to the 7 ring, or your average score advanced from 150/200 to 170/200.
gud luk
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- One of the HARDEST thing that I had to learn, was to abort the shot.
If things do not seem right, or you are wobbling too much, ABORT the shot, reset, and start over.
Pushing through to force the shot, usually results in a BAD shot.
THIS !!!!!
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Thank you gentlemen for the advice so far. Here's a followup question:
I'm right handed and pull the trigger with my right hand. My left hand therefore supports the weight of the rifle. The little finger side of my left handwinds up making contact with the front of the trigger guard to balance the rifle, used with the two plastic included butt extensions because I'm 6 foot 1 inch tall. Is this the correct placement?
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The top pics are of the stances that I mentioned.
Left is the European stance, with the vertical front leg.
Right is the American stance, with the legs angled evenly.
Again, neither is better, just different. Use whichever works for YOU.
Your support with the left hand sounds fine.
You could use a ski glove, or similar padded glove. That serves 2 purposes
1 - Isolates your heart beat from the gun.
2 - Pads your fist, so the gun resting on the fist does not start to hurt. That is if you use a fist front hold.
See bottom of the first pic, and bottom pic.
The second pic (just found) shows the teens holding the rifle.
You can see the support hand under the rifle.
And the ear plug.
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There were a couple of things that were mentioned. I don't know if you have a coach. But if you don't or don't shoot with someone who is better than you that can comment on your technique, that might be the one thing that would be the easiest to make the next step up. Most people are willing to help someone who is will to listen and work. (Join a team?)
Second is get the technique right first, then practice. The hardest thing to do is correct a problem that you have drilled in through muscle memory. superstition, random reinforcement or whatever you want to call it is what happens when you learn by yourself with no one to correct mistakes.
Also, you might want to decide what kind of equipment you are willing to buy. There is clothing that is made specifically for shooting. Yes, you can substitute clothing that is similar, but you might also just "bite the bullet."
Also the advise about aborting the shot when you are shooting for score is good advice. You will know when you are struggling and those are the shots you will end up regretting when you look at your scores.
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In competitive FIELD TARGET ... Most matches the top shooters & ultimate winner will be determined by how well said competitors do while SHOOTING OFFHAND !!! ( If there was kneeling #2 )
In my last 2 matches ( 1 being the Nevada State championship, 2nd being a Club match ) the first place position in the class was a TIE and required a Shoot Off. OFF HAND in both cases during the shoot off made the decision of winner.
YES ... this skill is required if you care about shooting for score !!
Scott S
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There were a couple of things that were mentioned. I don't know if you have a coach. But if you don't or don't shoot with someone who is better than you that can comment on your technique, that might be the one thing that would be the easiest to make the next step up. Most people are willing to help someone who is will to listen and work. (Join a team?)
Second is get the technique right first, then practice. The hardest thing to do is correct a problem that you have drilled in through muscle memory. superstition, random reinforcement or whatever you want to call it is what happens when you learn by yourself with no one to correct mistakes.
Also, you might want to decide what kind of equipment you are willing to buy. There is clothing that is made specifically for shooting. Yes, you can substitute clothing that is similar, but you might also just "bite the bullet."
Also the advise about aborting the shot when you are shooting for score is good advice. You will know when you are struggling and those are the shots you will end up regretting when you look at your scores.
Agree, IF you can get a coach that is the best way to learn.
Because you cannot see yourself. Well if you set up a camera you can, but that is after the fact. A coach can correct you real time.
An example, I was not aware that I was stooped over in front of the computer. My wife looking at me from the side could see that I was stooped over.
A coach also knows where people usually makes mistakes, so can get you past those mistakes faster than you on your own.
Agree about technique.
When I first started shooting 10m, I STUNK. Some of my shots completely missed the target.
My coach completely rebuilt my stance, and immediately I was keeping the shots inside the 1-ring. MAJOR improvement.
Like a house, you NEED a good foundation (technique) to build on.
Muscle memory is HARD to change. If you don't pay attention, it is easy to fall back into your old habit.
So you have to pay attention, until you develop new muscle memory.
Someone once told me that it takes about 3 months of regular practice for the body and muscles to reset to a new task/method, and forget the old.
That is one of the things that dry firing is for. To teach and develop new muscle memory.
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When always on the flat and level technique can be dialed in .... In the case of Field Target, many times your NOT on the flat and level and how you hold, stance and any comfort you may have found goes right out the window !!!
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BTW 183/200 = 92% and that ain't bad for a PB.
A LOT of people would really want to be able to crack that 90% line.
You did not say what your average score is, but you said "somewhat lower." I presume that means about 5% lower, 87%, or 175/200. And that ain't bad either.
The higher your score, the flatter the improvement curve gets.
And improvement is harder and slower. One % point at a time.
You have to pay attention to the "little stuff," that can cost you a point here and a point there.
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BTW 183/200 = 92% and that ain't bad for a PB.
A LOT of people would really want to be able to crack that 90% line.
You did not say what your average score is, but you said "somewhat lower." I presume that means about 5% lower, 87%, or 175/200. And that ain't bad either.
The higher your score, the flatter the improvement curve gets.
And improvement is harder and slower. One % point at a time.
You have to pay attention to the "little stuff," that can cost you a point here and a point there.
Here's my 183/200 from last year's match #14. My average is closer to 170. I'd love to be able to be in the 190 range.
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BTW 183/200 = 92% and that ain't bad for a PB.
A LOT of people would really want to be able to crack that 90% line.
You did not say what your average score is, but you said "somewhat lower." I presume that means about 5% lower, 87%, or 175/200. And that ain't bad either.
The higher your score, the flatter the improvement curve gets.
And improvement is harder and slower. One % point at a time.
You have to pay attention to the "little stuff," that can cost you a point here and a point there.
Here's my 183/200 from last year's match #14. My average is closer to 170. I'd love to be able to be in the 190 range.
85% is not bad.
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BTW 183/200 = 92% and that ain't bad for a PB.
A LOT of people would really want to be able to crack that 90% line.
You did not say what your average score is, but you said "somewhat lower." I presume that means about 5% lower, 87%, or 175/200. And that ain't bad either.
The higher your score, the flatter the improvement curve gets.
And improvement is harder and slower. One % point at a time.
You have to pay attention to the "little stuff," that can cost you a point here and a point there.
Here's my 183/200 from last year's match #14. My average is closer to 170. I'd love to be able to be in the 190 range.
85% is not bad.
Remember, at this point, every additional point will require more and more effort. So don't get frustrated.
The little stuff adds up. 1 point here and 1 point there, adds up.
Little stuff to pay attention to:
- Don't drink coffee or caffinated drinks 4 hours before shooting.
- Do you KNOW what time of the day you shoot better; morning, afternoon, evening?
- Are you well rested when you shoot? Not shooting after a tiring day at work.
- Are you keeping a shooting diary?
- Are your shoes FLAT, no worn heels or curved soles?
- Is your shooting platform/floor flat, level and hard?
- Are you getting your shot off, during your minimum wobble?
- Are you wearing the same/similar clothes each time you shoot?
- Do you rest your rifle on your left fist, or do you hold the rifle in your left hand?
- Are you dry firing for a similar or greater amount of time that you send pellets down range?
- When you shoot, are you CONCENTRATING 100% on holding the sight picture?
- Is the firing of the gun a "surprise release?"
- - If you know when you will fire the gun, you are paying attention to the trigger, and NOT holding the sight picture.
- If you shoot indoors, do you have enough light on the target?
- If you shoot outdoors, do you have too much sunlight on the target, is the sun glaring into your face?
- Do you use a blinder?
- - This is something as simple as a piece of cardboard or plastic, that blocks the forward vision of your non-aiming eye. This allows you to keep that eye open when you shoot, and not see the target with that eye. See pic below. It can also be a piece of tape on the lens of your glasses.
- Do you shoot with your head leaning forward or to the side, or held upright?
- - Holding upright helps with balance. Leaning the head affects some more than others.
- Do you cant your rifle?
- - If you hold your head upright, you have to cant the rifle, to be able to aim.
- If the shot does not feel right, can you ABORT, and put down the gun?
- - Aborting is a VERY hard thing for many people to do.
- - Caution: If you started to pull the trigger before you abort, the sear has moved, and there is less of the sear holding back the hammer/striker. This is a dangerous condition. Cock the bolt, to reset the sear.
- When you practice, shoot more than the match. You are shooting a 20 shot match, so practice 30 or 40 shots.
- - This mentally and physically makes the shorter 20 shot match easier.
- - When I practiced for a 60 shot match, I shot 100-120 shots.
- When you practice, make everything as close to match conditions as possible.
- - Just because it is practice, don't let your mind slack off. If you put shot 8 into the 5-ring, you blew your match.
- Think of a 20-shot match as twenty 1-shot matches.
- - Each shot is independent of any other shot. That you shot a 10, does not mean the next shot will be a 10. Likewise, that you shot a 7, does not mean the next shot will be a 7.
- - But, if you think about that 7, you will likely shoot another 7. So forget your bad shots and think 10.
- - I saw where one shooter taped a target with a center 10 into his pellet box. So each time he reached for a pellet he saw that center 10 target. That was his goal for every shot. Positive reinforcement.
There are 20 "little stuff" listed above.
If each one gets you just 1/2 point more, that is 10 points and brings you up from 170/200 to 180/200.
That is what I mean by the little stuff adds up.
Practice doing the 0/1 target scoring and set your goal to hold the 8-ring SOLID. IOW shots just hitting the 8-ring don't count.
And when that gets easy and boring, set your goal to hold the 9-ring.
Gud Luk
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BTW 183/200 = 92% and that ain't bad for a PB.
A LOT of people would really want to be able to crack that 90% line.
You did not say what your average score is, but you said "somewhat lower." I presume that means about 5% lower, 87%, or 175/200. And that ain't bad either.
The higher your score, the flatter the improvement curve gets.
And improvement is harder and slower. One % point at a time.
You have to pay attention to the "little stuff," that can cost you a point here and a point there.
Here's my 183/200 from last year's match #14. My average is closer to 170. I'd love to be able to be in the 190 range.
85% is not bad.
My latest was 171, my average. I'd like to be better than "not bad"so I'll make some changes before the next match. Aborting the bad shots will be a priority. Thanks.
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Match #10. One flyer kept me from reaching my goal. I know why it happened and I'll do better next time. I hope...
178/200, 5x.
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nice shootin' keep at it