GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Big Bore AirGun Gate => Topic started by: Nomadic Pirate on September 27, 2011, 08:19:10 PM
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I'm looking at this bullet for the Dragon claw,...but what is the gas Check ?
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66&products_id=198&zenid=0d8uthkkdr4dgns01cmrl90a14 (http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66&products_id=198&zenid=0d8uthkkdr4dgns01cmrl90a14)
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The gas check is the copper band on the base of the bullet . Which you really do not want . But the bullet is casted then that installed so it can be left off . You would end up will a base smaller in diameter than the riding bans of the bullet . Not a issue at all . It would look like the base of this bullet .Marvin
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn55/melloroadman/IMG_66773135X117GRAINS.jpg)
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perfect thanks, I just talked to Matt's and he says he can leave the Gas check of,...Almost time to pull the trigger on that .50 Cal :)
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Who gets it first you or Will ? Marvin
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It will go straight from Pyramyd to Will Piatt's shop :)
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Where all Korean guns should go immediately after purchase ;D
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What do you think about the look of that Bullet Chris ?
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66&products_id=198&zenid=0d8uthkkdr4dgns01cmrl90a14 (http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66&products_id=198&zenid=0d8uthkkdr4dgns01cmrl90a14)
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What do you think about the look of that Bullet Chris ?
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66&products_id=198&zenid=0d8uthkkdr4dgns01cmrl90a14 (http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66&products_id=198&zenid=0d8uthkkdr4dgns01cmrl90a14)
I like the large meplat.....might be a bit heavy for the power level even after a tune. I'm thinking lighter-weight stuff 250grains (tops) and under for the DC .50
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I'm looking for a heavy bullet in this range, I'm planning in keeping the Dragon Claw Open Sighted as my bush gun for when I hunt really thick forest, so shot distance will be minimal and I want Max FPE since I'll be taking Body shot most likely. if this weight bullet shoots in the 700+ fps it will be just what I'm looking for
I like the look of that bullet :)
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My concern is that the slug may not have enough steam behind it to stabilize from impact to exit. Maybe a tuned .50 DC could swing it....maybe not. 700+fps wouldn be fast enough I'm sure.
My tuned 909 doesn't have the power of a 909S, but when I shoot 270+grain WFN thru it velocity goes way, way down. I shot an old plank of wood about 2 inches thick with my 909 with a to-heavy 270+grain WFN, and then with an EPP/UG. The to heavy WFN stopped sideways in the middle of the plank, while the EPP/UG plowed thru clean.
I'm sure a 240grainWFN would have plowed thru fine.....my rifle just appears to meet diminished returns shooting boolits over about 260 or so grains.
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My concern is that the slug may not have enough steam behind it to stabilize from impact to exit. Maybe a tuned .50 DC could swing it....maybe not. 700+fps wouldn be fast enough I'm sure.
My tuned 909 doesn't have the power of a 909S, but when I shoot 270+grain WFN thru it velocity goes way, way down. I shot an old plank of wood about 2 inches thick with my 909 with a to-heavy 270+grain WFN, and then with an EPP/UG. The to heavy WFN stopped sideways in the middle of the plank, while the EPP/UG plowed thru clean.
I'm sure a 240grainWFN would have plowed thru fine.....my rifle just appears to meet diminished returns shooting boolits over about 260 or so grains.
Butcher,
I am not quite sure I understand what you are saying there in the part I highlighted. Are you saying that for each caliber you think there is a minimum acceptable velocity for hunting, no matter what the FPE or weight? And I guess that velocity might change with what you were hunting and how tough they are? Sounds like it can get a little complex?? I know some guys like to keep the velocity above 850 all the time anyway just to reduce the hold-over concerns.
Care to expand a little?
Thanks,
Lloyd
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NP,
How about a .50 Caliber 330 Grain Round Nose Flat Point ( .500 S&W ) Sized to .501 @ Velocity Bullets , 250 for $41.00.
Take a look below. It has a little less on the Business End (The Meplat) of the Bullet than the 325 Grain though. However
Or a 500 S&W 325 grain FP Sized to .501 @ Hunters Supply for $66 for 250 ( Shipping is included in the Price. I got .50
Caliber .495 336 Grain Soft Lead FP for my DAQ and they shoot Great & Group like the 182 Grain Round Balls at 50 Yards
@ 3800 PSI.
Jetman
http://www.velocitybullets.com/products/.50-Caliber-330-Grain-Round-Nose-Flat-Point-Sized-to-.501-Quantity-250.html (http://www.velocitybullets.com/products/.50-Caliber-330-Grain-Round-Nose-Flat-Point-Sized-to-.501-Quantity-250.html)
http://www.hunters-supply.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=199&osCsid=c6a1e7597c79a22bdd5dbdbb9bb22307 (http://www.hunters-supply.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=199&osCsid=c6a1e7597c79a22bdd5dbdbb9bb22307)
Below is the .50 Caliber .495 336 Grain I shoot in my DAQ. Below is what is listed on the DAQ site for the .50 Bandit:
Shooters always want more performance and many shooters don't require the short range of a round ball. For them, a conical bullet would perform best for their longer range shooting. Hunters-Supply is able to supply a .495 diameter conical bullet made especially for the Bandit rifle.
Bullets are available from Hunters-Supply, Inc. 505-716-4369.
Website at: hunters-supply.com
Below is the .495 336 Grain Soft Lead Bullet:
http://www.hunters-supply.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=820&osCsid=c6a1e7597c79a22bdd5dbdbb9bb22307 (http://www.hunters-supply.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=820&osCsid=c6a1e7597c79a22bdd5dbdbb9bb22307)
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My concern is that the slug may not have enough steam behind it to stabilize from impact to exit. Maybe a tuned .50 DC could swing it....maybe not. 700+fps wouldn be fast enough I'm sure.
My tuned 909 doesn't have the power of a 909S, but when I shoot 270+grain WFN thru it velocity goes way, way down. I shot an old plank of wood about 2 inches thick with my 909 with a to-heavy 270+grain WFN, and then with an EPP/UG. The to heavy WFN stopped sideways in the middle of the plank, while the EPP/UG plowed thru clean.
I'm sure a 240grainWFN would have plowed thru fine.....my rifle just appears to meet diminished returns shooting boolits over about 260 or so grains.
Butcher,
I am not quite sure I understand what you are saying there in the part I highlighted. Are you saying that for each caliber you think there is a minimum acceptable velocity for hunting, no matter what the FPE or weight? And I guess that velocity might change with what you were hunting and how tough they are? Sounds like it can get a little complex?? I know some guys like to keep the velocity above 850 all the time anyway just to reduce the hold-over concerns.
Care to expand a little?
Thanks,
Lloyd
Terminal stability vs stability in flight only.......
Still on my first cup of coffee, and about to go out scouting so I'll have to try and explain it better than the EPP/UG-WFN example later tonight. For now I'll ask: why did the slow 270grain WFN wind-up sideways, and get out-penetrated by a faster 154grain?
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....................For now I'll ask: why did the slow 270grain WFN wind-up sideways, and get out-penetrated by a faster 154grain?
HA, ha. You got me there. Yes I now understand better. I've had many (most) of the higher velocity shots punch thru 2x lumber like it was whacked on a 10 ton punch press. Then the slow pokes meander off whichever direction the grain is heading, or if they hit a knot, stop cold. Nuff said! Point well taken!
Thanks,
Lloyd
edit P.S. My dad taught me lots of things and I remember when we were building our garage when I was about 13, he showed me how to blunt the end of a 16 penny nail with a hammer so that it wouldn't split the ends of the framing lumber. That blunt tip cut the wood fibers and punched a good hole thru the wood and didn't just push the fibers apart and make a split. Sounds like Meplat for nails. ;)
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I just spoke to Leroy and he is going to Power Tune my .50 DAQ Bandit for me. My 909S that he did for me shoots a 230 Grain A 755+ FPS for just over 300+FPE. Leroy just made me Very happy on the Phone today. Leroy said I would be able to shoot Lead Roundballs as well as Conical Bullets with a much higher FPE, ETC. Wow, I will have 2 Rifles Power Tuned by " The Man " Leroy Roduner @ BGMF Air Guns / 316-409-5969 or http://www.bgmfairguns.com/index.html (http://www.bgmfairguns.com/index.html)
I must try this EPP/UG 150+ Grain Bullet that Emulates a Standard Round Ball in my Tuned 909S and see what it will shoot like with a 150+ Grain Bullet in place of a 230 Grain.
Jetman
P.S I look Forward to Butcher45s Info on the Terminal Stability Vs Stability in Flight , I always ask him Tech Questions and he is like an Encyclopedia on All Air Gun related Stuff.
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Could it also be that the 270 gr. was long enough to not be stabilized by the rifling.... or is that totally not an issue?.... My first thought when I saw that the 270 gr. went sideways in the wood was it hit a hard bit of grain and turned after impact.... I wonder how it would perform in ballistics gel....
Bob
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Rsterne,
Good point Bob, The longer a Conical Bullet is ,The better it is on being Stabilized. Also I think A conical is stabilized by the rifling also. The longer & Heaver A Conical, The more Stable. A heavy Conical Bullet is effective on game even when the velocities are relatively slower than a light bullet. A Lighter Bullet may have higher velocity and therefore greater muzzle energy than a Conical, However it will also shed that energy much faster. The momentum of the heavier Conical allows it to shed its energy much slower. That same momentum retention remains when the Bullet strikes big game. A combination of Bullet Weight, Diameter and Velocity are Key, And important to increases both penetration and trauma to an animal. Conical Bullets also have many Disadvantages, The more weight in the projectile ,The more Energy needed to get it started down the Rifle barrel. Conical Bullets can only be made so short before it becomes unstable. I know Butcher knows all the factors that have a role in the De-Stabilizing of Lead Conical Bullets. All the information Butcher has passed on to me has been Rock Solid , Butcher knows his stuff. We are all lucky Butcher and many others are there for us when we need advice. His knowledge He & Others pass on is Very Well Valued IMO. The Veteran Big Bore Air Gunners on the GTA Big Bore Gate are the Best Around for All Pertinent Big Bore Air Gun Questions. However sometimes, Some of the Super Technical Answers such as ones in Physics and Stuff are a bit mind
blowing to me and usually takes me a couple of times to read it to have it sink in. IMO,There is no Question nor has there been one that could not be Answered here.
Jetman
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The longer a Conical Bullet is ,The better it is on being Stabilized
ummmmmmmmmm.... if you are talking about how the rifling stabilizes it by spin, you've got it backwards, I'm afraid.... The longer the bullet, the LESS stable it is when fired from a given barrel.... There may be some aerodynamic factors (that I'm not aware of) that make really short bullets inaccurate compared to longer ones.... but it's not related to spin/twist.... Longer bullets need a faster twist.... and a barrel that will barely stabilize a bullet that is 1" long will not stabilize a longer bullet....
Bob
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Could it also be that the 270 gr. was long enough to not be stabilized by the rifling.....
Bob
Possibly.....extra weight does usually equal more length when the design is the same, so when we speak of twist rates and boolit weights we are really talking about boolit length and not weight. That's why some people like to mess with hollowpoints so they can get a longer boolit that is more compatible with their barrels twist rate, while not having to go up in weight (read sacrifice velocity).
Could be a combination of both (wrong twist AND velocity).
It would help to see some results of 270-300+grain slugs being shot from a tuned 909S, as they use the same barrels/twist rate (about 1:20), and have a bit more power to push those heavier slugs faster.
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Rsterne,
Good point Bob, The longer a Conical Bullet is ,The better it is on being Stabilized. Also I think A conical is stabilized by the rifling also. The longer & Heaver A Conical, The more Stable. A heavy Conical Bullet is effective on game even when the velocities are relatively slower than a light bullet. A Lighter Bullet may have higher velocity and therefore greater muzzle energy than a Conical, However it will also shed that energy much faster. The momentum of the heavier Conical allows it to shed its energy much slower. That same momentum retention remains when the Bullet strikes big game. A combination of Bullet Weight, Diameter and Velocity are Key, And important to increases both penetration and trauma to an animal. Conical Bullets also have many Disadvantages, The more weight in the projectile ,The more Energy needed to get it started down the Rifle barrel. Conical Bullets can only be made so short before it becomes unstable. I know Butcher knows all the factors that have a role in the De-Stabilizing of Lead Conical Bullets. All the information Butcher has passed on to me has been Rock Solid , Butcher knows his stuff. We are all lucky Butcher and many others are there for us when we need advice. His knowledge He & Others pass on is Very Well Valued IMO. The Veteran Big Bore Air Gunners on the GTA Big Bore Gate are the Best Around for All Pertinent Big Bore Air Gun Questions. However sometimes, Some of the Super Technical Answers such as ones in Physics and Stuff are a bit mind
blowing to me and usually takes me a couple of times to read it to have it sink in. IMO,There is no Question nor has there been one that could not be Answered here.
Jetman
You said "A Lighter Bullet may have higher velocity and therefore greater muzzle energy than a Conical".
From what I have seen, the heavier slugs produce more fpe until they become way to heavy. Greater velocity doesn't necessarily equal greater energy when the faster boolit is lighter in weight.
I appreciate the compliments. I must mention though, that I can't say I know "all the factors that have a role in the De-Stabilizing of Lead Conical Bullets". There could easily be factors that I am not aware of.
I have picked up a lot of information over the past few years that I like really enjoy sharing with others so that they can save time getting up to speed shooting their bigbores, and have tried and found a few of boolit design that I introduced the the bigbore airgun world, but I am always trying to learn more.
As I mentioned in a PM the other day, I often come away from a testing a hypothesize or theory with more questions than I started with.
Expert......not me. I'm working on it, though lol.
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I must try this EPP/UG 150+ Grain Bullet that Emulates a Standard Round Ball in my Tuned 909S and see what it will shoot like with a 150+ Grain Bullet in place of a 230 Grain.
Jetman
It will shoot like a laser in comparison.......when zero'd at 50, you'll likely have less than a foot of drop@100yards, compared to the 15inches or so of drop you'd get with the 230grainer.
The difference may not help much, or at all with heart/lung shots on large animals like deer, but for smaller critters with tiny kill zones, I have more confidence in the flatter-shooting boolit. With my style of hunting, and the quarry I pursue, I stay within my rifles point blank range by choice (and usually by circumstance as well), so holdover need never cross my mind. I choose the precision, and bit of extra range I get from a 154grainer for stuff smaller than deer.
The EPP/UG has been catching on as of late......very good consistency with the accuracy reports from SamYang owners (often shooting un-sized boolits, which is what I shoot out of mine). Under an inch c-to-c groups at 50 yards seems typical, with some trophy groups closer to 1/2 inch.
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Thanks Butcher & Rsterne.
I understand much more now on Conical Bullets , Etc. Butcher, Thank you for the Detailed explanation. I always understand in clarity from the way that you word things. Like I stated Prior, You are a Full Encyclopedia of Big Bore Air Guns and Related Information and then being able to write it down in a Clear and Easy way for Air Gunners like me to Absorb. Bob, Now I do need
to Clarify something however. I thought that a longer Conical Bullet was More Stable than a Shorter one and that the Spin from the Rifling also Stabilized it. What do I have Backwards ? A conical can be made as long (and therefore as heavy) as can be stabilized by the rifling. Early conicals were very short because they were used in round ball rifling patterns. Conicals can also be made in different lengths to allow for a wide variety of game hunting. But, a Conical can only be made so short before it becomes unstable. The largest Conical Bullet that I have shot from my Tuned 909S is A 230 Grain HP from Bob Vogel # 456-230-K ( See Picture ). I try to choose a Conical Bullet that loads easily in my Rifle and a weight of Conical Bullet that is appropriate to the game I am hunting.
Jetman
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I'm not familiar with "Conical" bullets.... All I know is that if a bullet of "X" length is stabilized in a given rifling twist.... that a shorter bullet will also be stable.... ie it will not tumble end over end.... If the bullet is short enough, it can be "overstabilized".... While in theory this not a problem with a PERFECT bullet.... if there is any imperfection.... out of round, CG not in the center, loaded crooked, etc.etc..... then spinning it too fast can cause it to wobble and open up the group size.... Perhaps that is what you are experiencing?.... It might be something as simple as the short bullets not loading straight....
If you can give me an example of the longest, heaviest bullet that is stable in your gun.... and the rifling twist and velocity.... I can crunch the numbers.... Likewise, if you can tell me where the lower limit is (the shortest, lightest bullet that is stable).... I can do the same.... The military generally aim for a stability factor of 1.5 to 2.5 (anything under 1.0 is unstable).... Bench rest shooters aim for 1.3.... Anything up to about 3.5 or 4.0 is usually not detrimental unless the bullet is of poor quality (off center, crooked, or out of balance)....
Here is an example of what information is available on the Internet.... This is for a Lee 405 gr. in .457 cal # 90374 in a 1 in 26" twist barrel.... I took the dimensions from their photo on the website so they may not be perfect.... but good enough to do the calculations.... The stability graph is from a website in Scotland.... http://www.border-barrels.com/barrel_twist.htm (http://www.border-barrels.com/barrel_twist.htm)
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/Lee405grF_Stability.jpg)
You fill in the dimensions in the calculator and it produces the graph.... This is the ONLY website / calculator I have found that addresses the subsonic and transonic regions.... Note how the stability drops as the bullet falls through the sound barrier.... I don't know if this will help you or not.... Hope so!....
Bob
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Rsterne,
Bob, Thanks for the Information, However Butcher45 and Nomadic Pirate were Talking about a 270 Grain Conical And a .50
Caliber Dragon Slayer. I jumped in because of a few things I read and it did not add up for me. So i jumped in and learnt a
thing or two.
I have no problem with any of the Conical Bullets I shoot in any of My Rifles.My Leroy Power Tuned Sam Yang 909S shoots A
230 Grain Hollow Point Conical ( Bob Vogel Bullets/ MHP ) @ 755 Plus FPS for just over 300+FPE. I have also shot A 250 Grain Hollow Point and My 909S,It is Very Accurate and it is Very Healthy in the Power Department. I was saying to Butcher45 that I have to Try shooting this EPP/UG 150+ Grain Bullet that Emulates a Standard Round Ball in my Tuned 909S and see what it will shoot like with a 150+ Grain Bullet in place of a 230 Grain HP. I also shoot A 433 Grain Conical HP Bullet from my .58 Caliber Haley Boomer Carbine and it shoots Just Awesome. I have been shooting the 182 Grain Soft Lead Round Ball and a few Soft Lead Conical Bullets from Bob Vogle ( A 200 Grain HP & 240 Grain HP from my New DAQ .50 Caliber Outlaw Bandit and so far the 182 Grain Soft Lead Round Balls are 80% Hole in Hole @ 30-50 Yards and I can cover up my 3 Shot Group with a Quarter , And I am covering up 1/2" Diameter Holes from my .495 Lead.
Bob,
That is real nice of you to offer Tech Help. That stuff is a bit Complicated when I here Crunch Numbers. With my 909S I am shooting a 230 Grain HP @ 755 + FPS for just over 300 FPE, However this gun is shooting Great. When I get the .50 DAQ Power Tuned I will ask for your help then if that is all right. You seem to have a computer mind ( A Complement )when I comes to Air Rifle Charts Etc. I understand some of the stuff, But Wow, Some of it sounds like Physics or Something. Thats real cool you can
crunch numbers like that. It is another learning curve I need to Master.
Jetman
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Jetman, Do I understand that your Quackenbush .50 Cal. Shoots 182 Grain balls at 800 FPS? And your accuracy is best with the balls? What is the fill pressure and how many full power shots do you get with it? Have you killed any deer with it as it is? I seen one of your post that you may have it tuned. How much improvement do you expect from that? When you have it tuned will you let us know what improvement you see? Sorry for all of the questions but I plan on getting one and want a lil insight. Thanks Longrifle
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the longer a bullet is the faster it needs to be spun to stabilize. higher velocity can be used to compensate but only to a certain extent. that is why sporter 223 barrels had a 1-12 or 1-14 twist for 40-50gr bullets and military 5.56 have as fast as 1-8 to shoot 60-80 gr bullets in the same cal