GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Machine Shop Talk & AG Parts Machining => Wood Chop Shop (Working with wood) => Topic started by: Greg_E on April 06, 2021, 01:23:01 AM
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I've seen a few videos using ferric nitrate on curly maple and the results are really nice. I have a Kral made with Turkish walnut that is kind of crying for some kind of finish. Would I see benefit from the ferric nitrate (plus heat) or is the wood already too dark?
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I have never stained walnut. It has the natural color many stains are trying to achieve. The finish, Tru-Oil, linseed etc, will darken the sanded walnut and continue darkening over time.
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Aqua fortis will darken it some and if there is much burl, make it pop. Just neutralize really well afterwards then get after the linseed oil and it will age nicely.
Dave
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I was going to try and buy a small "builders board" at one of the home stores, but they are charging almost as much as a replacement stock will cost for a couple board feet of boards.
I think I may give it a try and see what happens. I have an old muzzle loader with a maple stock I built from a kit some 30+ years ago, maybe I'll strip it down and refinish it, then get it rebuilt and functional, it was a fun "hand cannon" with real black powder belching huge clouds of smoke. Got it for Christmas one year from my parents, back in the better days.
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It is the only wood stain/finish I care to use. Something about it.
I think track of the wolf still sells laurel mtn forge brand. It is good stuff. I have some I brewed up myself I like. It’s pretty easy to make but it is acid, so.......
I like using linseed oil too. The old saying on its application is once a day for a week, once a week for a month, once a month for a year and once a year forever. Lol.
Good luck.
Dave
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I bought a bottle of crystals and gave it a whirl on some cheap red oak... When it goes on some parts turned almost black. Let it dry and still a bunch of almost black areas. Then cooked it with a heatgun and everything went brown. Threw a coat of truoil on it to see what it does, pretty nice considering I didn't sand it.
Think I'm still going to try this on the walnut. If I get a dark brown with black in the grain, it should look good. Almost like an ebonized look would be OK, but wholey black like ebonizing wouldn't be my first pick.
Ebonizing is iron in vinegar, often with tannin applied before the stain to make sure everything goes super dark.
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Let us know how it turns out.
Dave
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I guess if it fails, I can probably sand a little more and ebonize to black. I can probably know before I hit it with the first coat of truoil by wiping with some mineral spirits after cooking off the nitrate.
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Good luck.
I suggest that you get yourself some wood samples and make test panels. That's the best way to know for almost sure what you're going to get, and then try your favorite finish to get a look at the end results.
Depending on the piece of wood, I don't usually stain walnut and if I do, it's usually with a 'neutral' stain to simply highlight the grain. I remember a discussion of Ferric Nitrate in a finishing class I took, but have never used it. Lately, I've been finishing 'gun wood' with Minwax Wiping Poly. So far the results are good with little darkening and little yellowing. Very durable.
If you can't find your samples locally, try the web for wood working supplies.
:)
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Update, I've gone through a couple of books [general woodworking and furniture finishing] and found nothing of value. There does seem to be a thread on the web among smokepole builders using ferric nitrate and some of the photos look interesting. You might look at Dixie Gunworks to see if they have any information available.
You have piqued my curiosity and I'll keep looking.
Good luck.
:)
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I have used Aqua Fortis on quite a few pieces of curly maple and like what it does, but never thought of using it on walnut. The thing with it, like sb327 said, is to make sure you neutralize it and I would also make sure to wear gloves.
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Real aqua fortis is just nitric acid which still darkens the tannins in the wood.
The ferric nitrate (iron reacted in nitric acid) is a little nicer to handle, and in theory when you heat it to cause the color change, you are cooking off the nitric acid ion. Through it on a piece of steel and it rusts fast! I bought crystals and mixed with distilled water.
On this stock I'm thinking of a couple of options.
#1 if it is too dark, I can sand again and this should remove the iron from the more dense areas which might give a nice effect.
#2 if I don't like the result is I could treat with a tea solution to add more tannins and heat again. Might require another coat of ferric nitrate. This should give a black finish just like ebonizing (iron reacted with vinegar).
#3 would be if #1 fails and would probably be going through with #2.
A lot of this may depend on what I see after I raise the grain and sand, then wipe down with mineral spirits. If it looks really dark like this, I may skip the stain and go straight to truoil. The red oak I tried went completely black for a while, and almost milk chocolate brown in the tighter grain. It lightened up a little with a coat of oil. I didn't care too much about this oak, it is my beater stick to cut the sprue when casting ammo, just wanted to try out the technique.
I priced some bits of walnut "builder boards", and they are stupid expensive. Some options were as much as a replacement stock, so I just decided to jump in and see what happens. Worst thing should be I hate it and go to black with tea and nails in vinegar solutions. Hoping to do this work this week, but found the rear brakes on one of the cars are wiped out so need to tear them down and fix them. Still hoping I'll have time for sanding, staining, and some oil, along with some ammo casting and some time at the club shooting.
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Right now, most wood is stupid expensive. Luckily, I've got a Rockler store and a Woodcraft store within 10 miles, decent prices on 4/4 hardwood lumber 4~10 bucks per board foot for most of what we would want. You might want to be sitting down to price 8/4 though.
I looked in a Dixie catalog and found almost nothing except a mention in the listing of a tutorial DVD.
Good luck on your project and keep us posted.
:)
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Still not sure this was a good choice. Here is sanded to 400 grit and ready for stain.
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Here it is with stain before heat.
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Part way through the heating conversion, you can see the brown fade to yuck, the brown is the part that has been cooked
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After dinner with one coat of truoil applied. When it is wet, it mostly looks great so I'll have to bring it to a polish before it is done. Thinking I might not mind ebonizing a stock some time.
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Got about 5 coats on it know, starting to look a lot better. Definitely something I'm going to need to wet sand and polish to a gloss finish (if I can). I'll have to get better pictures tomorrow in the sunlight.
Very dark on one side due to the wood grain.
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I think it looks good. Yeah, it looks yucky during heating but the yuck washes off when neutralizing.
I use linseed so I’m not familiar with how truoil acts when trying to achieve a gloss/shiny finish. With linseed, it’s all about patience. Put on several coats then a loooong drying time and buff to a shine.
Dave
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Wear nitrile surgical gloves when applying the Tru-Oil. It'll smooth out to a high gloss and you'll never have a finger print. Google "Tru-Oil magic elixir". It's my favorite method for applying Tru-Oil. The best description is in the link to Rimfire Central by the person who discovered it years ago. You'll apply two to three times more coats in the same amount of time than using the normal method. This is my Blue Streak stock finished with Tru-Oil. No polishing needed, just the way it turned out using the method.
Jon
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Looks good so far, Greg.
;)
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It actually looks a lot better after the extra coats, didn't get a chance to take a photo, gray and raining most of the day. Still getting parts where the wood still seems to pull the surface dry, so not ready for sanding yet. I'll get another coat on tomorrow and see if I can get it saturated to the surface, then let it harden for a couple days and hit it with some 600 or 800 wet with a little soap.
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Yep, when you get to that point with oil, give it plenty of dry time before recoating or polishing.
Keep plugging, it's looking good.
:)
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No new pictures, but first wet sand and a fresh coat of "stuff". Looking better, think I need to modify my application technique. I've been using a twill cotton cloth and while this works, it doesn't really fill in the pores. Think the next coat will be wet finger application and buff off the excess. Then I can evaluate again and see where I am.
Also I used 800 grit wet with a little soap, it tore down through the truoil faster than I expected. Think I'll use 1200 next time since I almost got down to wrecking the stain with the 800.
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Still a lot of little grain bits that refuse to fill in, stuck another coat on it and drying now. Looks OK and I may stop here, or maybe one more coat because I don't think I can get it any better.
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If you keep adding coats thinking it will fill in and level out, it won't. The pores are always going to be lower than the rest of the surface. You have to sand down the higher surface until it reaches the level of the pores.
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Without sanding the stain away, I'm not sure I can get down to them. I'll probably try one more sanding and see where it goes, but I think these grain areas are too deep to get. The truoil layers seem to be really thin, wet 800 busted down to almost stain with just a few passes, and that was with 6 layers of truoil and many days to harden. I think I'll try the 1200 paper I bought and see.
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If you keep adding coats thinking it will fill in and level out, it won't. The pores are always going to be lower than the rest of the surface. You have to sand down the higher surface until it reaches the level of the pores.
He's right. After applying six or seven coats you have to sand it back down to almost bare wood. I use 220 grit because 800 would take all day. Don't worry about scratches, they'll disappear with the first coat after sanding. You'll know with the first coat after sanding if the pores are filled or not. If not apply another six or more coats then sand it back down to wood. Do it as many times as necessary to fill the pores.
Some people like the pores showing. They think it looks more natural than a perfectly smooth finish. It's a matter of taste and your choice.
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I'm one of those who likes the looks of the pores. Here's something else to consider: If the gun is stained, you have to be really careful not to cut all the way through the Tru-oil to the wood, or you might end up with a light spot where you removed the stain. If you're working with a darker wood like walnut, which doesn't need staining then it doesn't matter if you sand down to the wood when trying to get a pore-free finish.
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Agree that you'll have to sand back to almost wood and recoat to eliminate the pores. And 2nd on 220, you don't need anything finer 'til the last coat or so.
I finish with pores or without, depends on the wood and project. Also, I use a piece of t-shirt cotton really wet with oil for application, let it soak 10 minutes +/- then wipe with another cotton rag. Use lots of rags, but I like the finish.
Keep at it, you've made a good start.
:)
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Got greedy and put on another coat before the previous was ready... Got some visible thick spots now. Either going to put on another coat, or sand stuff down to fix it.
I'm surprised at the suggestion of 220, the wet 800 chewed through with very light pressure almost all the way to the stain. Need more experience with all of this.
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I'm surprised at the suggestion of 220, the wet 800 chewed through with very light pressure almost all the way to the stain. Need more experience with all of this.
Years ago there was a GTA member who was a professional stock maker. He put together a detailed document on how he made and finished his stocks. It's still archived on this forum somewhere. His stocks are works of art. I followed his instructions on finishing with Tru-Oil when I was learning. It worked and I was amazed with the results. He uses 320 grit to knock the finish down to fill the pores. I tried 220 and it worked just as well. I use 220 on stained wood too. Maybe I'm impatient. The only other thing I changed later was using the magic elixir method. I never have to wait long to apply another coat. It's ready for another coat in about an hour depending on humidity. I use 0000 steel wool between coats.
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Thanks, I'll have to search the old GTA that is archived for this info.
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Thanks, I'll have to search the old GTA that is archived for this info.
I found it; http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA2/PDF/MikeChavkaStockMaking101.pdf (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA2/PDF/MikeChavkaStockMaking101.pdf)
Sanding and Finishing begins on page 96. Here's the stock he's making.
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Thanks. That sure does look nice!
I did a quick sanding and another coat last night, then another coat this morning. Think I'm about at my stopping point. One more coat tonight and I think I'll put it all back together tomorrow and let it rest. I can always come back and sand a bit more and add more coats to continue to smooth it out.
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Not to leave this hanging too long, I put this to bed for a while. Put the mechanism back in and into the bag. I'll get a picture when I can, needs to be out in the sunlight to really look good.