GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Crosman Airguns => Topic started by: Billd75 on April 01, 2021, 03:58:17 AM
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So, this is a weird one, but not really, lol. As I got my new Vigilante/.357 today, fresh out of the package it shot the first mag. fine with hammer cocked and shooting single action. But after that, it was having issues and still does, periodically, with the hammer not locking back, and is kinda fiddly. Seems I have more success getting it to lock if I pull it all the way back with some authority, to it's limit (practically touching the grip) it tends to be more reliable at locking. And it seems if I pull the hammer a bit to the right, it catches and stays locked more reliably too. Although not always, but the results are much better it seems, when I pull the hammer to the right. I did put a drop or so of Microlubol silicone oil on the tip of the CO2 and it seems thinner than Crosman's (garbage) Pellgun oil, lol. And some got out the breach and even a little on the mag. So I wiped it all dry a few times between shots till no more and it seems like it's gone and drier. But could it be that my problem started due to something getting lubed with that oil during the first mag running oil through there, that lubed something it shouldn't have and started causing problems with subsequent shots?
What I am basically asking is, is this a common/known thing with these guns in general, or is this something I did/the lube did? It strikes me it might be something possibly got oiled that should not be, possibly causing a slip and not catching/holding something inside, (I cleaned the pall too and things that help rotation of the mag to make sure it wasn't that) and the mag seems to be rotating fine and this happens with a mag or no mag in. It's not like a mag. advancement/timing issue like some I have read about with this gun sometimes, it happens regardless of mag presence. I've been playing with it unloaded and no Co2 just repeatedly cocking and releasing the hammer (sometimes dry firing with the safety on, but most of the time manually decocking it.) and it can cock reliably sometimes 10 times in a row then slip 2 or 3 times. I can pretty much tell now when I let off the hammer, if it will slip or is locked reliably. Sometimes I can go 20 times between slips even. It seems like it might be diminishing, it was kinda worse earlier and "seems" to be improving but still doing it more than I'd like. Again, this makes me think it's something lubed that should not be and it is getting more reliable it seems, cause lube is wearing off that part?
I don't remember my buddy's 10 year old .357 ever doing this, but that was the .357 not the Vigilante (I know, I know, same gun, it hasn't really changed much in decades besides cosmetics, lol.) and he never oiled or took care of the gun whatsoever and never did anything in the way of maintenance at all. I knew this oil was gonna be a little thinner than the sticky Crosman gunk/junk, but it seems to have really made it's way around the gun judging by the breach exit and mag getting a bit and perhaps it got into places it should not have. Lol. I wasn't being overly liberal with it either I knew full well from reviews it was a bit thinner and you don't need much of any silicone oil and yeah they were not kidding about this stuff in particular. It's not super thin, but thinner than the sticky red garbage for certain lol. So Crosman experts, does my theory make any sense, or is this a Vigilante/.357 thing I've never heard about before and fairly common and not something I did and if so is there a fix?
Oh, and I just found out something else, if I pull the hammer to the left, it never reliably locks the hammer back, only to the center and it is halfway reliable and to the right is reliable 90% of the time or thereabouts. I cocked it pulling the hammer right and was successful at least 20 times in a row. Does the mechanism that locks this favour pulling the hammer right a bit? It seems like the way it is/or is mounted in there (perhaps you know I've never opened one or much less seen any vids of the guts to know anything about it) catches more reliably with a pull to the the right on the hammer? This doesn't seem like a defective gun, I know the reputation of these fairly simple guns, they are tanks if you take simple care of them, that's why I bought it, they are more reliable (especially for their meager price), than some $200 guns and this isn't a deal breaker and a minor and perhaps correctable issue, even if I have to pull it to the right forever, lol. Not a big deal, as long as it doesn't get worse. That left ide pull is horribly unreliable, doesn't catch and you can feel the utter lack of resistence and mild click and skip compared to the more solid feeling on the right of the hammer.
By the way, it has a near hair trigger along with this too, in single action, is that normal? I mean, I don't care, I love sensitive triggers actually, but it almost seems like it got even more hair and softer to pull as I broke it in with only 1 CO2 cartridge run through it so far and about 50 pellets. Oh and another question about that, is it really a thing that these and other Crosman's have serious "other brand" CO2 cart. leak issues? I bought Crosman's monopoly cartridges, lol, only because I heard this and indeed, they seem to have a much more pronounced "lip" on the cartridge tip than my Daisy's I compared it to. So I didn't risk putting one of them in just because it sure seemed like what I read was legit, based on physical evidence of the cart. appearance alone and I don't wanna waste a cart. just to find out. Sorry for the book, but I am trying to give a detailed explanation of the issue and y'know, new gun, questions, excited and liking it and want it to perform as good as possible and want to know it's "quirks" and what is normal or not.
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Update: The gun actually doesn't lock the hammer back whatsoever if I pull to the left. Middle is semi reliable and to the right is quite reliable. You can feel the difference too, there is a much more solid engagement on the right and a very lackluster click and miss on the extreme left every single time on a left side hammer pull. So much so, that I can actually decock the gun without touching the trigger if the hammer is locked back. By just pulling it left if I previously pulled it down the middle to lock it. There is a very clear better engagement of the lock mechanism on the right and it doesn't decock with a left pull either (unlike the middle pull), "if" I engaged it with a right side pull of the hammer before that. With a middle pull, it is almost as if it is barely engaged enough and I can decock it too easily without touching the trigger and just moving the hammer left in it's locked position and it can travel forward. If I lock it in with a right hand pull, it can only decock with trigger assistance usually (how it should be) and there is good engagement. I am starting to think that maybe it was partially silicone lube related initially and it somehow getting where it shouldn't have, but now, I am thinking this is more of a hammer quirk of this gun too, that may be a common thing?
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Never saw this problem before. Obviously something is not lining up properly. If it was me, I would degas the pistol and loosen the screws on the left side. Then jiggle it some and hold the sides together and work the action, cocking and firing. Next tighten it down and try charging and shooting again. A sane person would just return the Crosman pistol for another. Dave
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A sane person would just return the Crosman pistol for another. Dave
That wouldn't be me. LOL
Sounds like the engagement surfaces between the sear and the single action notch on the hammer need to be inspected.
The hammer notch is probably pretty shallow and the slop is contributing to the misalignment.
It might be as simple as putting a thin washer on each side of the hammer pivot pin to square it up.
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Never saw this problem before. Obviously something is not lining up properly. If it was me, I would degas the pistol and loosen the screws on the left side. Then jiggle it some and hold the sides together and work the action, cocking and firing. Next tighten it down and try charging and shooting again. A sane person would just return the Crosman pistol for another. Dave
Nah, I ordered it online and would need to send it back, likely shipping on my dime, for a minor and fixable problem, that I likely contributed to, lol and it only really got worse as the shots got fired and more oil made it's way around the gun. There is literally nothing else wrong with the gun, it's great. Upon inpecting it even more today, it seems some of that oil I put on the cart. not only made it's way out the breach and onto the mag etc., but seems to have made it's way down onto the bars a little too, from what I can see (they glisten a bit). When looking between the hammer and the body of the gun there are two bars that move and are what cock and lock the mechanism in place upon cocking the hammer or decocking. So I think they are just too slippery and it locks into place improperly and needs more friction (and no lube).
I will likely open it, clean that and it should be fine. I never noticed that those bars had possibly got a little lube on them and that could be the issue causing/contributing to the slippage and it makes sense that it is only happening periodically, in certain positions. If it were truly broken and needed repair/replacement, it would not work at all or very poorly and that's not really the case. I will certainly be a lot more careful with this oil from here on and use it even less than recommended, which for most people/airguns is a drop every 2-3 carts. I can probably do every 5th cart or more with this stuff and half a drop, hehehe.
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A sane person would just return the Crosman pistol for another. Dave
That wouldn't be me. LOL
Sounds like the engagement surfaces between the sear and the single action notch on the hammer need to be inspected.
The hammer notch is probably pretty shallow and the slop is contributing to the misalignment.
It might be as simple as putting a thin washer on each side of the hammer pivot pin to square it up.
I think you are onto something. As I inspected it today (externally), I notice that down between the hammer and the body, the pin that moves up the hammer upon cocking was a bit "wet" looking with that oil (man, this stuff gets around, even less next time which it won't need for likely at least 5 carts by the looks of it, lol). and the pin that drops into place to hold the hammer in further down inside that notches at the bottom of the hammer looks to be a bit slick too (the pivot pin I guess). This leads me to believe, that when it does move in there, it doesn't stay/hold in there, cause of some slop maybe, sure, that's something to look at and thank you for the tip. I think the lube that may have got down there ain't helping that pivot pin either, hehehe.
Between some possible slop and lube? Oh yeah, I think that's the problem. Fresh out the box on the first mag, it wasn't doing this, but as the shots went and lube travelled around, it got slick me thinks and in the wrong places, hehe. It was worse when the lube was fresh in there too, compared to now after me playing with and getting some lube out/off with action.
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A sane person would just return the Crosman pistol for another. Dave
That wouldn't be me. LOL
Sounds like the engagement surfaces between the sear and the single action notch on the hammer need to be inspected.
The hammer notch is probably pretty shallow and the slop is contributing to the misalignment.
It might be as simple as putting a thin washer on each side of the hammer pivot pin to square it up.
Well, I didn't do that ultimately although I could. I noticed that the sear spring was weak and just barely catching the lip on the hammer (and not reliably whatsoever on the day before I opened, it was skipping constantly/not locking the hammer). So I tried to use your idea with a washer (actually square metal spacer) except behind said spring to give it more tension (as I have heard of that being done before too, usually to increase hammer spring strength and get more power). Spring was still too weak. So, what I did was I had come across a pen spring in my junk container of screws, washers etc. I cut it down (cause way too long) to be a bit longer than the stock spring and crammed it in there and voila. It still misses about 2% of the time, but it locks reliably and is MUCH better than before.
If it continues/comes back, the washers and squaring up the hammer will be the next move. As I did notice that on the side that comes off, the pin holes for the trigger pin, hammer pin and sear pin are a lot wider/bigger than the holes in the body where all the parts fit/sit. Probably to make assembly easier to get the cover back on, but those holes are likely to create slop on that one side, yeah, I see what you mean. It still seems like it locks more reliably on that side still (doing a right side pull when cocking) which has been par for the course on this gun since day one. Like c'mon Crosman?! .357's were never this unreliable by comparison, but a local guy here on Youtube says he hates Vigilantes and loves the old 357's. He says Crosman the last few years has had issues.
Judging by the garbage that Wildcats and C-11's, Crosman full auto BB handguns and the Iceman pistol, I would say that's right. And this man, got given a Vigilante that was so far out of whack he had to rebuild the thing and get the barrel recrowned or replaced cause it was milled crooked hence why it was shooting so far off. He attributed it to probably being a Friday at quitting time (when most problems happen, lol) and someone not paying attention. Seems they have some real amateurs working at Crosman now.
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Glad you got it reasonably squared away.
I was looking at getting one of these too, but I prefer the Python styling of the older ones.
The triple threat is intriguing with the half-lug barrel style. Kind of like a S&W 29.
(http://[url=https://th.bing.com/th/id/R62d7a05d4aaa4f355c00808adc01c581?rik=UkFRHUDmg%2f%2bwFg&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.nmproducts.ltd.uk%2fimage%2fcache%2fcatalog%2fcrosman-AG3576-TT-TRIPLE-THREAT-VIGILANTE-cr44ttkt-350x350.jpg&ehk=ntI1a9aKVatQGASkGzTyP2tNC6xXaQAtkh%2fjEIC9IXE%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw]https://th.bing.com/th/id/R62d7a05d4aaa4f355c00808adc01c581?rik=UkFRHUDmg%2f%2bwFg&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.nmproducts.ltd.uk%2fimage%2fcache%2fcatalog%2fcrosman-AG3576-TT-TRIPLE-THREAT-VIGILANTE-cr44ttkt-350x350.jpg&ehk=ntI1a9aKVatQGASkGzTyP2tNC6xXaQAtkh%2fjEIC9IXE%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw[/url])
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I did and I eventually opened it again, to put a small washer on the hammer peg to hopefully correct any slop (as someone here suggested) and it's even more solid now. It never misses or has a flakey/weak hammer hold now, not once. It engages solidly every time. So that's the ticket, if anyone else has this issue. Stronger sear spring (and a simple pen spring will work if cut down) and a thin small washer on the hammer peg (which just barely fits on there with the dog leg bar attached). Yeah, I almost went with the Crosman Triple Threat myself, but there were some complaints about it. But, it is a cool gun especially for those who want that interchangeable barrel option (which admittedly appealed to me).
The Python has a nicer trigger apparently, but that's the only area it beats the Vigilante in. It has no rails and no way to attach sights, whereas the Vigilante excels in that area with mounts on top and under barrel. And the Vigilante shoots a bit faster than the Python. The only thing I don't like about the Vigilante is the grips, so I made my own. And even though I went for simple ghetto grips out of scrap wood and for functionality only, they turned out pretty nice looking. So I stained them with Red Mahogany stain and it brought out the natural beauty of the wood and it compliments the black colour of the gun quite well. Aimed for ghetto and got ghetto fabulous, lol.
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How about some pics of those grips?
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How about some pics of those grips?
Sorry I haven't been around for a bit, but yeah, sure. Don't mind the quality, it's a very old iPhone. Lol. The flash was reflecting bad off the clearcoat (which isn't a gloss either it's supposed to be satin), so I got a no flash pic to give a better detail although it's dim. I didn't show the other side cause this is the nicer side the other is just curved lines=not that interesting.
I love how it gives it a sort of Old West feel, although on such a modern, more tactical looking revolver (unlike it's predecessor the old .357) it does look a bit out of place, lol. I don't care though, it's about shooting comfort for me. They are attached by machine screws that have filed down nuts embedded in the other grip. I had to figure out an alternative to the classic "clip on" grips they have always used and are sloppy. I positioned both screws so that the grips cinche down firmly onto the gun, zero slop whatsoever and are mounted in small spots where they can pass through the handle (or around it on the bottom one) and have no room to move (like right beside the neck of the CO2 cart, in that corner). It's rock solid.
This works quite well, although no softwood next time, bad idea on these thin grips. I've had to JB Weld the screw holes and redrill them. I was tightening them down too hard and sinking them deeper into the handles and they broke through.