GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Tallbald on March 24, 2021, 10:15:36 PM
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He lives in a suburban area and knows my enthusiasm for air gun shooting sports. I explained a little about PCP's, which he only had an idea about from old Air Force airgun ads. Told him I thought that around $400 would get him a basic rifle but that he's need a pump and a scope. Please suggest a brand and model to suggest he look into. He's been a powder burner shooter for close to 40 years and like others, feels the ammo crunch. Also he could shoot in his back yard he believes. Didn't know what to tell him about suppressors on an airgun though because I don't know how the law works on those here in the USA.
Thanks to everyone. I appreciate your all's time. DOn
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avenger has a large following
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A starter PCP could be had for around $200, pumps as low as $50, and any optics would have to be figured in. My Maximus .177 I bought was under $200 with discount. Had a pump from a .22 Maximus bundle, back when they were $300 for rifle, pump and target.
A QB79 could take a 13ci regulated hpa tank, around $130 for gun, $60 for tank and $50 for pump. Its gotten cheaper to just buy a entry level PCP.
Just checked the amazon, a Beeman .22 QB Chief was just under $165 and a pump for $50. Hopefully the .22 doesn't eat bolt Orings like my .177 did. A little dremal work to soften the breech edge helped a lot. They aren't back yard friendly out of the box. But they have a hammer spring tension adjustment screw that can be backed off. Once done you can fill at lower pressure (1600-1800psi). This will quiet the report, and shoot at lower velocity. A ldc/moderator could be added for full power and low report. Lots of options out there to get into Pcp's.
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Looking at the lowest price point try this:
Beeman QB Chief $179.99
4500 psi hand pump $45.90 thats todays price, they sometimes are much cheaper
Centerpoint 4-16x40 Scope $78.00
Thats $303.89 with all new items that will have him shooting 1 hole bullseyes all day long at 25 yards or more.
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Don,
Tell your friend to get something with a shrouded barrel. Suppressed, but look like bull barrels.
Marauder, Fortitude, Avenger, Gauntlet, and more...
He needs to state the mission and range, as that will drive the caliber.
Tell him to look on Pyramyd Air. The specs for length and weight etc; and user ratings are useful: https://www.pyramydair.com/air-guns/rifles (https://www.pyramydair.com/air-guns/rifles)
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Really like my Marauders. Good triggers and quiet, lots of parts and info on tuning and mods. For the money, the Avenger isn't bad. Higher fill pressure, especially for a pump. I do like the side lever on the Avenger.
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Moved to the PCP Gate.
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In the past, I've done a few guys a disservice by recommending certain inexpensive PCP's.
Now I try to steer new folks toward a Marauder (Rifle or pistol with stock). Not the cheapest guns but proven, quiet, easy to work on repeaters with a good warrantee and easy parts availability.
Nothing turns a newbie off of PCP more than getting a lemon and not being able to get it fixed easily.
I like helping new guys with their guns but if something goes wrong with one I recommend, I've found it better for all involved if the gun is an easy fix (in or out of warrantee).
Also, I always tell firearm shooters that PCP's are generally more fiddly than the guns they're used to, and will require maintenance that they may not have the tools, ability or desire to keep up with.
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I would get his expectations in what he wants.
Is it just a to shoot? Is he after bug hole groups?
Coming from a high level of competition of shooting long range powder burners.
I bought what I thought was cheap to an give me acceptable accuracy. Only to re-evaluate. Send back an now attempting to buy what I want/“need”
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The Fortitude would be a good starter, not the cheapest, but it is a multi-shot, regulated, with a shrouded barrel so it's backyard friendly, and it's backed by Benjamin's 5 year warranty for peace of mind! It's also hand pump fillable for the beginner. At $232.50 with the 25% off code direct from Crosman, it's not too much over the $200 price point.
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That price point is something to remember .Any thing with a shrouded barrel will be over it, and thats not getting him any air or support. Getting started cheap is one thing, you have to know what can come along with cheap. In this case sometimes money talks , although not always. It's a gamble kinda.
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Have stayed out until now.
Do tend to point new guys to a bit more than the bottom line rifles. Did notice that the prices have increased (PA now wants $250 for a Stormrider).
Have tried the Beeman Chief...but not the Chief II or the Commander. Not real thrilled with Beeman’s parts support. Have not tested their warranty (because it took more than a year for the valve poppet to die). If you can DIY after a year, might be something for a guy use to working on PCP’s to consider.
Usually point them to Crosman as they are the easiest to get fixed or find parts to DIY. If you don’t open it up a screw around with it, the 5 year warranty might come in handy (print/save the paper work).
Problem with used rifles s that (1) you aren’t the original buyer and (2) have no idea w2hat may have been done to it...so the factory warranty is usually void. Got some great deals in the used market...with an occasional dud. HAve always considered used rifles to be a bit like heading to the Casino for the day....odds are even worse there, but the same concept.
Knowing he’s going to use a hand pump pretty much excludes all the ones I don’t want to hand pump...so not big volume, high pressure rifles. Not that you can’t fill those with a hand pump; you won’t want to.
So I’d price a Chinese pump (maybe $50-$60), and a simple Adjustable Objective scope and mounts (maybe another $60-$90). PCP’s don’t try to kill scopes like springers do. Leaving maybe $ 250 for the rifle.
Considering the budget to be FIXED….if it’s $400, it’s not “just a little more”...but a little less would be fine.
All these years, and the cheap guns still get used more often. May only be on days when I know the pretty/expensive ones would get dented, scratched, rained on, etc. Bit like my neighbor with the custom hot rod….he doesn't drive it in rush hour traffic too and from work.
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For guns under the $300 price point, there is a high probability of having early issues that require some basic shadetree repairs and tweaks. As long as you have the right expectations, that’s fine.
By no means is the next price bracket immune to issues but the probability falls as you might expect. For example, a lot of folks here have had very good experiences with the Gamo Urban. It doesn’t have all the bells and whistles of some of the more recent “price point PCPs” but it does consistently get high marks for accuracy and reliability.
Perhaps another way of looking at it is whether your friend likes to tinker or not. If he does, something like the Avenger or DAR or Fortitude would be good. Otherwise something like the Urban or Marauder would probably serve him better.
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Was so much easier just a few years back….there weren’t many choices under $300. Considering inflation, kind of amazed there are any choices today at the $200 mark.
Still get some “snob” recommendations that basically translate into, “You’re too poor to join the club”...but over all this might have been helpful. It’s often worse when the poster is asking about springers; then the real snobbishness comes out.
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Tell him to get a DAR .22! And some o rings, an air bottle, compressor, scope and some metric hex wrenches.
OH! And lots of spare time.
LOVE mine but I worked for it! 8)
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Today's there's a very nice selection of budget guns, on paper there's some real good ones that have great reviews but also quite a bit of bad ones,
one budget gun you hardly ever if even hear bad things about is the Gamo Urban,
a more simple gun but comes from a quality British pedigree, is easily tunable down and up and already suppressed.
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Higher end of the rifle budget....but with careful shopping for a pump and a scope, could come in at $400....and I like the Urban for a hand-pumped PCP (although high pressure, it's only 105cc's).
Might be the best choice....people do all sorts of things to them, but usually for personal reasons rather than leaking/not working.
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There are some good PCP guns around $300, a little less in some cases when there are sales/discounts. Chinese pumps can be had for around $25-$50. If you want a scope you are looking around $10 or more for decent rings and it can vary so much with a scope, since they don't have to survive any kind of recoil you can go from $35 to over $300. $400 budget can certainly be done, maybe even less if the person isn't too picky about scopes and just wants a basic lower magnification or that $38 big Amazon 6X24 special that is actually pretty decent.
For around $300 you can get a few, some of the most common in that price range seem to be
ATI Nova Liberty-I have one
Avenger
Origin
DAR
Artemis PP750
All of them are multi shot and can have some very good accuracy even at long ranges.
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Today's there's a very nice selection of budget guns, on paper there's some real good ones that have great reviews but also quite a bit of bad ones,
one budget gun you hardly ever if even hear bad things about is the Gamo Urban,
a more simple gun but comes from a quality British pedigree, is easily tunable down and up and already suppressed.
Love my Urban... if I had one wish it would be that it was regulated. However, that would make the already small air chamber even smaller. Never had an issue with it since day one.
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My urban has been a great airgun as my first pcp. Quiet accurate not big on power but I dont hunt or pest so that's not an issue.
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/BSA-Buccaneer-SE-SILENTIUM-22-Caliber-Beech-Wood-Stock-PCP-Air-Rifle-w-Silencer/293633539833?hash=item445dec3ef9:g:a4wAAOSwb05e~JRv (https://www.ebay.com/itm/BSA-Buccaneer-SE-SILENTIUM-22-Caliber-Beech-Wood-Stock-PCP-Air-Rifle-w-Silencer/293633539833?hash=item445dec3ef9:g:a4wAAOSwb05e~JRv)
Mine is .177 and a one holer. Love my Maximus too but bsa is a cut above. The pickle on the end is obnoxiously big but does it’s job. Very good trigger. Good luck whichever way you go.
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He's got to come in, scope and pump, at $400 (lets take the budget literally until told otherwise)..even a cheap scope and pump is going to eat into that budget by $120-$150.
Otherwise, it's a naked Barbie doll...and some of them are.
The “nickel and dime” stuff adds up. An LDC or better LDC, a spare mag with a repeater comes with only one, fill probe adapter to quick detach...whatever you gotta have that it ain’t got.
NOT that I don't like cheap PCP's..still own, use, and like them....just that few of them are still sold.
YEAH...I have a fixation on cheap PCP’s...but I wouldn’t have that fixation if they didn’t do all I ask of them to do.
They all were in .22 at the time of the pictures (a couple got changed):
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7805/47479158632_556abacd07_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2fkz6Hj)DSCN1507 (https://flic.kr/p/2fkz6Hj) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
1. Discovery....that was the ONLY cheap PCP at the time....Maxi took that over, Disco got dropped. Really not a bad single shot rifle, the barrels weren't (then) up to the challenge.
2. FDPCP...."no one" wants a single shot 1500psi limited PCP (well...no one but me?). Still the best $100 I ever spend on an airgun, but it is no more. Learned that power was NOT only for the high-pressure PCP's, but that shot count was directly proportional to energy out put.
3. GAmo Urban. Ugly isn't up for debate (should be a plastic surgeons ad for a "nose job"). As a moderate power "urban" rifle, it works great....I've done nothing to it but put a scope on it (haven't had to reseal/repair it yet). Extra mags are costly, but you will want at least one spare mag.
4. Beeman Chief. If it were; not for the spare parts situation, could full endorse it….have suspsicons that the valve poppet is going to die about a year or two, and there wren;t any to buy other than DIY.
5. MrodAir/SPA M10 single shot....big rifle, really powerful, but a single shot in a world that wants a repeater. First time I started seeing +50 foot pounds out of a factory .22 and accuracy to match the energy/range it could be used.
6+7. BAM 51/50...."no one" wants a no-gauge PCP single shot that you really have to adjust to get to run right. Aren;t too many PCP’s folks liked enough to on-line write a whole “book” about, but this is one. Still working and a great shooting rifle. SHOULD have been a "kit gun" as they just weren't set up right out the box.
(thinking you might find an old-stock BAM 50 from a Canadian dealer….you’;d need a full seal change by this time, and a good bit of adjusting/tuning to get it to run right….but it’s an option for the committed/ PCP shooter looking for a “beat it up” airgun).
8. MrodAir/Spa...call it a Gen. I of the Diana Storm-rider. Wonderful lite weight rifle for me...no real compromise in stocking/feel, just light weight. Magazines are “munchkin” sized for human fingers, but they work.
(Although out of stock/pre-order...do notice that AirGun depot has the Diana gen II as $200. They’ve been easy to deal with, haven’t screwed me, so they’d keep he price in pre-order.)
9. HOW BREW.... just a Qb79 converted to HPA...not that it's easy to find a QB79 these days.
Even with “better” (which I will take to mean more expensive) airguns at hand, the above cheap ones get more shots per year...it’s been going on for +10 years, so it’;s reasonably large base line comparison.
Likely you won’t go “whole hog” on the low end PCPs….but even a committed PCP nut should have one plain/starter gun..
So if you start at the low end, like what you find with PCPs, then buy your next one “UP” towards the things you like (be it just being pretty, or more power, or more shot count, or more of anything...PCP shooters are definitely into more of something)….you’d still likely use the starter/cheap PCP .
(from a use point of view...I really should dump the pretty/expensive ones… on a cost-per-use basis, they were not earning their keep).
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/BSA-Buccaneer-SE-SILENTIUM-22-Caliber-Beech-Wood-Stock-PCP-Air-Rifle-w-Silencer/293633539833?hash=item445dec3ef9:g:a4wAAOSwb05e~JRv (https://www.ebay.com/itm/BSA-Buccaneer-SE-SILENTIUM-22-Caliber-Beech-Wood-Stock-PCP-Air-Rifle-w-Silencer/293633539833?hash=item445dec3ef9:g:a4wAAOSwb05e~JRv)
Mine is .177 and a one holer. Love my Maximus too but bsa is a cut above. The pickle on the end is obnoxiously big but does it’s job. Very good trigger. Good luck whichever way you go.
If you look at many of those aftermarket 'soup cans' out there that some folks put on their guns, that 'pickle' don't seem so obnoxious.
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May as well own up to the other 3 cheap PCP’s...bought either used or on close out.
And they are all Hatsans.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7876/46616528255_5de217d454_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2e2kTKM)DSCN1546 (https://flic.kr/p/2e2kTKM) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
#10. Single shot side lever? Hatsan Penuma .177. Bought used (but long ago) and still running. Typical reseal now and again, but it’s been a long time in between.
#11. No one seemed to like the Hatsan versions of the Webley Raider. When they went to close out price ($300) I had to buy the 5mm version….just ‘case I like 5mm and where would I find a PCP 5mm for $300?
#12. Few liked the Hatsan pump action (this on in .25). Still make them, so they evidently did recover from the “close out” pricing they once had. Not my favorite to shoot from a bench...even with an LDC, still have a 12ga. type ”cunk-a-chunk” sound to reload.
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Considering the budget to be FIXED….if it’s $400, it’s not “just a little more”...but a little less would be fine.
Not picking on you Ribbonstone. Your post seems the most definitive; so here goes:
I must be blind, because I have not seen a fixed budget for the total stated by the OP. Just a suggestion that it would be $400 for the PCP, plus for the sights and pump. What am I missing?
I take my impression from what the OP posted. Not other numbers for suggested products. That said, the price is obviously of huge importance to answer the potential buyer's question.
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If you look at many of those aftermarket 'soup cans' out there that some folks put on their guns, that 'pickle' don't seem so obnoxious.
If you look at how quiet the DAR is with its very skinny shroud, when set at around 20 FPE, one would think the DAR should be a contender on this "list". It should be, if one could recommend them with the confidence that their O-rings would not leak out of the box...
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Love my DAR... Loved my MRodAir Varmint before I sold it, but Customer Service plays a big part in sales... and word of mouth can make or break you.
My advice for the OP.... give Mike Mellick at Flying Dragon Airrifles a call.
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I hate people who just post links as answers but given that it was started a week ago the information is still very current. Basically, Avenger, Flash, DAR, Gauntlet, Fortitude, just to name a few.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=185316.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=185316.0)
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If you look at many of those aftermarket 'soup cans' out there that some folks put on their guns, that 'pickle' don't seem so obnoxious.
If you look at how quiet the DAR is with its very skinny shroud, when set at around 20 FPE, one would think the DAR should be a contender on this "list". It should be, if one could recommend them with the confidence that their O-rings would not leak out of the box...
I just shot 200 pellets (hand/hard cast 22.5 gr WC) today in the shop from the NEW! DAR, .25 cal. 941 fps for 44.25 fpe!! Good Gravy!
3 Hundo, no tax, delivered from DAR. Agreed, needs to be on the list!
Quiet? Shooting steel at 50y, the pellet hitting steel is louder than the shot.
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I would love to have a full shroud on my Urban.... just defeats the purpose of an inexpensive gun for me. If I were going to invest that much I think I would have better options. Mods are great, you just never get back what you put in... :o
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you know .if anyone has a memory, the urban was hot, not that long ago. As far as gettin back, a---heeem
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I hate people who just post links as answers...
There is nothing wrong with posting just a link, if the info there is relevant. The link you provided was spot on; by the way. I have a problem with people who ignore posted links that contain pertinent info. They seem to expect someone to spend and hour restating what has already been stated very clearly at said links...
What is particularly irksome, is asking a broad question, without providing the specific boundaries to answer such a question. Then, not coming back to help focus the discussion...
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I hate people who just post links as answers...
There is nothing wrong with posting just a link, if the info there is relevant. The link you provided was spot on; by the way. I have a problem with people who ignore posted links that contain pertinent info. They seem to expect someone to spend and hour restating what has already been stated very clearly at said links...
What is particularly irksome, is asking a broad question, without providing the specific boundaries to answer such a question. Then, not coming back to help focus the discussion...
Or ask a question and disrespect you for the answer because it wasn't what they wanted to hear.
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I hate people who just post links as answers...
There is nothing wrong with posting just a link, if the info there is relevant. The link you provided was spot on; by the way. I have a problem with people who ignore posted links that contain pertinent info. They seem to expect someone to spend and hour restating what has already been stated very clearly at said links...
What is particularly irksome, is asking a broad question, without providing the specific boundaries to answer such a question. Then, not coming back to help focus the discussion...
Sorry re reading that I came off a little rude. I meant I hate when someone only posts a link, then the link goes dead years later with no explanation of what it was.
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Sorry re reading that I came off a little rude. I meant I hate when someone only posts a link, then the link goes dead years later with no explanation of what it was.
I did not take it as rude. Just a poor word choice, perhaps. Definitely honest.
If I am honest, I want to contact the OP and strongly suggest he provide his friend with the link to this thread. Then, for the OP to manage this thread based on his friend's input, so that people don't waste their time adding value that is going to be ignored. Or that seems to be ignored.
If the OP is reading this thread, as he should be (else, why ask for info, if you are going to ignore it); then I have just told him to "get with the program". This might be rude; but by posting my message here, I am testing to see if the OP is reading the thread he started...
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I dont think Op is reading this thread due to the "unread threads" button that is gone from gta. that function is gone for good? ya know what i am talking about?
i know powder burners will not be satisfied with max 50 yards and below 60fpe...at some point, we all gravitate toward that hunger for power. i dont think his friends budget is limited to $300. it has got to be around $500. i bet his powder burners are worth more...
that said. buy something that will last and have good customer service to fall back on. there are alot of airguns around $500. add a $50 pump and hes good for a while till he gets into the rabit hole.
Avenger, Flashpup, Liberty, used FX streamline, marauder, pp700 to name a few...lots and lots to choose from...
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duy,
My subscription is set to send me an email every time someone posts a new comment to a thread I started, commented on, or deliberately clicked "notify". I open such an email and click the link to the newest post. Perhaps the OP accidentally clicked on "Unsubscribe to this topic by using this link", just below the link that takes on to the latest post in his first email notification...
If I was to open all unread threads I would need a week for every day to keep up...
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I dont think Op is reading this thread due to the "unread threads" button that is gone from gta. that function is gone for good? ya know what i am talking about?
I do and its not gone at some point it was turned off on your end. Look in the top right hand corner of your browser there is a chevron click it so it is pointing up. Then the links on the left hand side will come back.
Yes I did take a pic of me point to it because it was faster than doing a screen shot and circling it...
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I like that "show new replies to your posts".
thanks!
and no thanks to email notifications...i have lots of junk emails..
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I like that "show new replies to your posts".
thanks!
and no thanks to email notifications...i have lots of junk emails..
Happy to help and you should see the amount of emails I get from reported threads in a day... Im with you Ill pass on that added noise.
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and no thanks to email notifications...i have lots of junk emails..
No email from the GTA forum is junk. You only get one email if there is a post on a thread you are watching: If ten people reply before you go to the forum, you get one email - not 10.
Pray tell, how do you know that people are posting to this thread? Do you sit there with a tab open and hit refresh every minute to check? :)
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Folks thanks for all the information here. I didn't realize the choices were so broad. I suppose that reflects a changing market and consumer desires. My friend actually didn't say if the $400 included a pump because I did explain that he'd either have to hand pump or buy a compressor. I'll relay the information and try to help him in any way I can to locate information.
Thank you all once more. Don
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Is there a reason your friend is not yet a member? We are very good at enabling... ;) we like spending other people's money.
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wish i have that kind of time to sit and refresh. i use the "show new reply to your post" link. now that i found it 😁. one of the many things i love about gta.
think we getting off track...what else can we talk about? i am sure there are used high end guns like brocock bantam and such...for enablers...
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Is there a reason your friend is not yet a member? We are very good at enabling... ;) we like spending other people's money.
Example: ME
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As the original post mentioned both the LOWEST PRICE POINT and an “about” $400 buy in for a rifle.scope.pump..
Could do it (right now) or about $310 (as mentioned by poster fv22).
Better buy would be the current pricing on the Chief II (plus) mag. repaeater ($180) in the synthetic stock...with LDC...mag fed repeater...3k fill...wouldn't have to buy an LDC to hush-it-up, so it would be just a scope/scope mount/pump.
Could swing the other stuff (scope/rings/pump) for about $ 150
Leaving you at about $330...if you need to spend all $400, use $70 to buy a section of pellets when ordering the rifle (would qualify BOTH as free shipping and a 4-for-3 pellet price drop at PA.
No idea or not he’d be happy with that or not…...but would be the lowest cost for a new PCP with at least some power Ifiguring a new PCP shooter is going to be looking for a bit more "zap" than a run of the mill springer).
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After reading more about the QB Chief and its valve issues I guess it's not the best to start with. Didn't know about valve issues, I use mine with lower fill pressure and soft spring setting. Maybe I have been lucky. That being said, just the fact that they eat bolt o-rings out of the box is a pain. Never tried customer service for mine, so I can't speak of service or parts availability from Beeman.
Of the four budget Pcp's I have, the Maurader is the best. But it's not the cheapest to get into Pcp's. Flying Dragons has that Xisco pcp that has peaked my interest. Cheaper than the Maurader, and seems to have similar capabilities. There are many options out there. But with anything, it's better to to not buy the cheapest as quality and support isn't always there. Think Geo metro vs Mercedes, both do the same thing, but which has more bells and whistles, and still can be found. No disrespect to Metro owners. Lol.
But, it is possible to get a pcp rifle and pump for around $220. Even If it isn't the best option, it would be easier to shoot and more accurate (for the power) than other power plants at this price range.
I'll quit rambling, take care and be safe.
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Thanks for weighing in, Don
My friend actually didn't say if the $400 included a pump because I did explain that he'd either have to hand pump or buy a compressor.
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The one thing we all should be doing is encouraging new air gunners (we need new shooters)….this long string of posts has been pretty good about that.
Haven’t owned a representative number of any single air gun….most of our opinions are based on a sample of “1”. that’s what these forums are for, reports from other people’s experience.
Doubt there is any air gun with a 100% record….or a make/model of new car that has never had one go back to the dealer. We do expect the inexpensive ones to be more likely to need attention and the expensive ones to need less…..we get surprises with either.
If he’s not in a rush, research is always a good idea. Have to sort out the things folks complained about just because they didn’t like the look, the posts were they wanted to change the power, add a new feature, etc. Just sort out the reports on breakages.
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Folks I want to say thanks again for all the information. I don't know what direction he may take or even if he'll follow through. Like so many of us he works long hours and has family expenses. I've offered him the suggestions and explained the fun and entertainment value to him. But only time will tell and I don't want to seem pushy.
In the meantime, I'm enjoying reading, watching instructional videos and absorbing knowledge about the PCP segment of our sport. It's been a loooong time since I've been able to be as enthusiastic about a hobby as I have become about air gunning. And being able to buy online and via mail order makes me feel like a powder burner enthusiast must have felt in the years before the 1968 GCA here in the USA that stopped mail order gun sales. At least we mostly have this for now. Until someone decides otherwise.
Don