GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: z_johnq on March 22, 2021, 01:31:56 AM
-
Hello,
The other day, I was trying to adjust the hammer spring of the gun by clockwisely turning a 5mm Allen wrench. But I think I did too much. Right after firing the gun, I heard a pretty loud hiss from somewhere around the breech area, sounds like a seal was blown; as I pulled back the bolt, the hiss was even louder.
Do you think the valve is broken? I'll try to fix it but no idea where to start. Any suggestions are welcome.
Thanks in advance.
-
From what you described I would assume that the valve poppet has failed, may have cracked, or just some crud got in it.
-
Wish I had better news.
MAYBE Beeman has gotten better...worth phoning/emailing them to find out. Looking at my notes, it’s been a year and a half.
Beeman was not good about spare parts for this rifle then….likely still not, but haven’t tried them recently.
Chief valve stem isn’t the same as any of the others I’ve checked...can’t check them all, but none of the spares on hand for other rifles would work (Chief uses a rather long valve stem).
Likely could talk you though a take apart….the valve and valve stem would be the very last part to come out, so it would be a pretty near total take down.
But without factory replacement part, wouldn’t do a world of good to take it all apart.
Could be fouled and the poppet (the seal on the valve stem) is leaking from that…..which was my hope at first.
Nope….it’s the black part, that should be attached to the long metal stem. Can see that it’s split up the side and fallen off the metal stem.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48729752076_f9cbaab921_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hf5Hzf)DSCN2225 (https://flic.kr/p/2hf5Hzf) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
Not a hard one to make….is a hard one to make and get to seal right (the seat on the valve face that the poppet seals to is not the easiest shape to get to deal...which is probably why they used a softer material).
-
Thanks for the quick reply!
Are you saying I need to replace the whole valve instead of replacing some o-rings, correct?
First time to take apart of a QB Chief. But I saw some videos at Youtube.com. It shouldn't be too hard. I'll keep you posted about what happens.
Thanks again.
Thanks to Ribbonstone too! I didn't see your reply until I posted the previous one.
I understand what you said. It's a Chinese made airgun and I don't expect too much from it. But it's sort of too good to throw it away since it's about 2 years old. I have a Maxima too. It doesn't look as good as the Chief but it's slightly more accurate, with a bad trigger.
I will think about it if I keep it or not.
Take care.
-
If you get Beeman to break lose with ANY parts....let me know.
Make sure the vids. are for the Chief....it's doesn't share much of any QB parts other than the trigger.
-
Beeman was not good about spare parts for this rifle then….likely still not, but haven’t tried them recently.
A very congenial description of Beeman (Chinese guns via SR Industries) customer support. They are mostly incompetent and error prone. It was a few years ago, but it took 6 emails and phone calls to finally get a few simple parts for a Chief.
The Chief platform is reasonable good, but without CS and parts, things can get difficult for owners.
-
Beeman was not good about spare parts for this rifle then….likely still not, but haven’t tried them recently.
A very congenial description of Beeman (Chinese guns via SR Industries) customer support. They are mostly incompetent and error prone. It was a few years ago, but it took 6 emails and phone calls to finally get a few simple parts for a Chief.
The Chief platform is reasonable good, but without CS and parts, things can get difficult for owners.
Did you have a Chief Gen 1 or Gen 2 --- I heard the Gen 2 had improvements ... I least I hope so as I bought one in 177 cal ;- ) ?
wll
-
Possibly you turned the RVA spring adjuster TOO MUCH and the hammer put pressure on the valve stem/poppet. When you shot the hammer didnt return back and pressed the stem/poppet. Try turning the hex counterclockwise and releasing the spring pressure.
-
You are more use to PCP’s….may be wrong, but the original poster didn’t seem like he was.
In you case, the worst would be having to make a poppet. So long as the original metal stem can be salvaged, it’s mildly aggravating job.
Looking at the dead poppet...it split at an injection mold seam. Wasn't being pushed hard (low pressure. about 16 foot pounds, two finger cocking.
-
Beeman was not good about spare parts for this rifle then….likely still not, but haven’t tried them recently.
A very congenial description of Beeman (Chinese guns via SR Industries) customer support. They are mostly incompetent and error prone. It was a few years ago, but it took 6 emails and phone calls to finally get a few simple parts for a Chief.
The Chief platform is reasonable good, but without CS and parts, things can get difficult for owners.
Did you have a Chief Gen 1 or Gen 2 --- I heard the Gen 2 had improvements ... I least I hope so as I bought one in 177 cal ;- ) ?
wll
If addressed to me - Gen 2 .22 caliber.
-
Took 10 years...but eventually the Crosman poppet died. Did push that one harder.
Good news is that a new one is like $5 and easily avaliable.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50796584482_a91fac6298_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2koHLQJ)DSCN3088 (https://flic.kr/p/2koHLQJ) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
Looks like it “beat” a ring seat into the poppet, and eventually the poppet blew out at that ring seat’s edge.
-
Wow! Thats a bad poppet. Yeah could be a bad poppet similar to Mr. Dean. BUT have you turned the RVA back and pump it up? If poppet is bad I bet it wouldnt be too hard to make a poppet. I should make one for mine JIC. Is that an imperial sized stem?
-
Seals are disposable bits….aren’t going to last for ever. Tires, fan belts, brake pads are like o-rings and poppet seals (or springer’s piston seals/breech seals). So long as you can buy a new part or make one, can fix it.
Did make one….then replaced it with a new factory one. Likely to run out of shooting lifetime about the time the replacement fails.
-
Dan, if the spring was pushed too much and counter-clockwise can help, but I cannot explain the heavy leaking of air after a shot. I guess I am not lucky eough that releasing the spring can solve the problems.
But it is worth trying.
Thanks.
-
If there is any air left make sure it is empty and check the condition of the hamner area (action). Im not sure how you do that if there is something wrong with the RVA but thats a first step and then check the pressure tube.
-
Okay, thanks for the tips from all you guys.
Let me remove the barrel first, will do it tomorrow.
thank you all.
-
I took off the barrel and found at one o-ring got chipped (total 3 on the barrel). Another one is also damaged but not as bad as the one in the pic.
Is Pyramid the right place to get the o-rings? Any idea? Not sure if replacing the o-rings will solve the problems but that's at least what I should do.
Thanks. Please let me know if you cannot see the pic.
-
AS568-012 O-ring (3/8 I.D. x 1/16” cross-section) will work. Should be able to get them at an Ace or True-Value Hardware store. And, just so you know, the cross-section measurement of a 1/16” o-ring is about .070” which provides the squash on the o-ring to make it seal. But, I think there is more to your rifle’s problem than that.
HTH,
Keith
-
I agree with you OTmachine. But let me try to replace the o-rings first. Thanks for providing the info about the supplier.
Regards.
-
Did you take the "action" portion apart (hammer area)? If you are going to take out the valve to see what is going on in there might as well reinforce with better screws. Forgot which works better but whether metric or tapping for 10-32 gr8 SHCS would be a big step up in safety. Its always better to have a tube yield than your pins fail.
Along the same safety lines but unrelated, the valve has 2 orings. I wonder if it can operate with one nearest to the closest opening on the breech side. Some designs in the past have a close oring to a hole for a degas on a tube yield.
-
I agree with you OTmachine. But let me try to replace the o-rings first. Thanks for providing the info about the supplier.
Regards.
I have one apart now, so if you need dimensions, let me know. Or Ribbonstone, who I believe has them all in his head, will probably chime in again. He is very knowledgeable.
-
I agree with you OTmachine. But let me try to replace the o-rings first. Thanks for providing the info about the supplier.
Regards.
I have one apart now, so if you need dimensions, let me know. Or Ribbonstone, who I believe has them all in his head, will probably chime in again. He is very knowledgeable.
What is the ID of the air tube and the OD of the hammer spring :-)
wll
-
I agree with you OTmachine. But let me try to replace the o-rings first. Thanks for providing the info about the supplier.
Regards.
I have one apart now, so if you need dimensions, let me know. Or Ribbonstone, who I believe has them all in his head, will probably chime in again. He is very knowledgeable.
What is the ID of the air tube and the OD of the hammer spring :-)
wll
Air tube O.D. = 1.023” (26mm), I.D. = .868” (22mm) and the Hammer Spring is of .047” wire thickness x .396” ( a little over 10mm) O.D.
-
No, I haven't yet but I will soon.
Keith was right about replacing the o-rings on the barrel doesn't solve the issues. And the o-rings that I bought today really not worthy: I put on the o-rings and reinstalled the barrel; after pumping some air and still leaking; then removing the barrel again. After checking the condition of the new o-rings, I found they got damaged again. Either the o-rings are inferior or the housing that holds the barrel/o-rings is too coarse, maybe both are of low quality. So much for the 'madeinchina' stuff.
-
Sorry but forgot uploading the pic of the o-rings. Hope it will show up.
I didn't go to ACE since a HarborFreight store is pretty close. ACE is kind of far. Guess it's a pretty bad move.
-
Sorry but forgot uploading the pic of the o-rings. Hope it will show up.
I didn't go to ACE since a HarborFreight store is pretty close. ACE is kind of far. Guess it's a pretty bad move.
You'll probably pay a whole lot less per unit for Harbor Fright orings but you'll be left with a bunch of huge orings that you never use. I did find that if you cut up one of a larger one you can replace that little spring for the safety detent in a Crosman 1322 grip. Just the right length and you never lose a "spring" again (since it is black). Other than that I don't know what to use the big ones for.
-
No, I haven't yet but I will soon.
Keith was right about replacing the o-rings on the barrel doesn't solve the issues. And the o-rings that I bought today really not worthy: I put on the o-rings and reinstalled the barrel; after pumping some air and still leaking; then removing the barrel again. After checking the condition of the new o-rings, I found they got damaged again. Either the o-rings are inferior or the housing that holds the barrel/o-rings is too coarse, maybe both are of low quality. So much for the 'madeinchina' stuff.
It appears to me that the transfer port in the barrels are not deburred leaving a sharp edge which will cut the o-ring in one place. Also, some silicone grease for o-ring lube helps. And a lot of times the Harbor Freight ones are under-sized and not of uniform size.
-
Good morning guys,
I guess I found some issues with the valve. Please check the pic attached. At leaset the o-ring on the stem inside the valve is broken. That's all I can see. Please check for me to see if anything else in the pic looks suspicious.
I don't trust the o-rings that I got from Harborfreight, any idea where I can get the entire set of o-rings for this particular rifle?
The poppet looks fine to me. What do you think?
Thank you.
-
Happened to be playing with a Chief this AM….actually, playing with the cannibalized one and the running one.
Are some things in your pictures that don’t quite match up. Your rear end cap looks different than either the early one I have...or the 2 year later one….but perhaps they used something different for the newest version (now would be like 4 years later)
Anyway...the broken o-ring looks like the one that is in the vale under this brass insert.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48729752076_4bc3885294.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hf5Hzf)DSCN2225 (https://flic.kr/p/2hf5Hzf) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48729547043_05ae039b14_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hf4ECc)DSCN2230 (https://flic.kr/p/2hf4ECc) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
Which is AFTER the poppet and should only seal for leaks around the valve stem on firing...shouldn’t do “jack” other than when the valve is open (no storage leak, no after the shot hissing)...it just seals the valve stem during the shot.
If I’m right, then just don’t screw down on that brass fitting more than “finger tight”...whole lot of PCP’s don’t bother to o-ring the metal stem
COULD be that broken like that, it fouled the movement of the valve stem….and kept the poppet from sealing….which might have been a cause for a leak.
.
Can say:
The fill end cap looks the same.
Valve body looks the same
Valve stem/poppet looks the same and looks healthy at this time.
-
Hey John,
Thanks for the quick return.
I bought the rifle in 2019, not sure if it's newer or older than yours. The pic I sent you covers almost everything related. They probably made some modification on it but I cannot say since that's the only one I have.
Again, do we have a place where I can get the entire set of o-rings for the gun? I tried PyramidAir but no luck.
From pic IMG_1343.PNG: it's the pic of the inside of action 'housing' that holds the rear end of the barrel. It's shiny, isn't it? It was not supposed to cause the damage of o-rings on the barrel. I guess it was the holes, whose edges are sharp enough to cause it. Hopefully some silicon grease should help as assembling.
It took me quite some time removing the valve and other stuff from the air tube since it was real tight. That's why I took a spring compressor (see the first pic) to do it, with frequent spray of silicon spray to protect the o-rings.
Thanks again!
-
Not sure why the 1st pic wasn't uploaded. Let me do it again.
Sorry.
-
Good morning guys,
I guess I found some issues with the valve. Please check the pic attached. At leaset the o-ring on the stem inside the valve is broken. That's all I can see. Please check for me to see if anything else in the pic looks suspicious.
I don't trust the o-rings that I got from Harborfreight, any idea where I can get the entire set of o-rings for this particular rifle?
The poppet looks fine to me. What do you think?
Thank you.
Nothing wrong with the Harbor Fright orings they are 70d and you get like 10 each for around $8-$9. Also, if you have an SAE set if one fits it may work. As long as the oring fills the gap when it is pumped up it should work. I use the.625 x .75 od orings in my .830. valve and they work.
You could go on Amazon and get a few packs that will fulfill your main orings but then youll have 100 each.
-
Happened to be playing with a Chief this AM….actually, playing with the cannibalized one and the running one.
Are some things in your pictures that don’t quite match up. Your rear end cap looks different than either the early one I have...or the 2 year later one….but perhaps they used something different for the newest version (now would be like 4 years later)
Anyway...the broken o-ring looks like the one that is in the vale under this brass insert.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48729752076_4bc3885294.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hf5Hzf)DSCN2225 (https://flic.kr/p/2hf5Hzf) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48729547043_05ae039b14_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hf4ECc)DSCN2230 (https://flic.kr/p/2hf4ECc) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
Which is AFTER the poppet and should only seal for leaks around the valve stem on firing...shouldn’t do “jack” other than when the valve is open (no storage leak, no after the shot hissing)...it just seals the valve stem during the shot.
If I’m right, then just don’t screw down on that brass fitting more than “finger tight”...whole lot of PCP’s don’t bother to o-ring the metal stem
COULD be that broken like that, it fouled the movement of the valve stem….and kept the poppet from sealing….which might have been a cause for a leak.
.
Can say:
The fill end cap looks the same.
Valve body looks the same
Valve stem/poppet looks the same and looks healthy at this time.
I would think a 90d oring here in the back of the valve would work better. Have you tried that? Im thinking it wouldnt grab as easily.
-
Hey John,
Thanks for the quick return.
I bought the rifle in 2019, not sure if it's newer or older than yours. The pic I sent you covers almost everything related. They probably made some modification on it but I cannot say since that's the only one I have.
Again, do we have a place where I can get the entire set of o-rings for the gun? I tried PyramidAir but no luck.
From pic IMG_1343.PNG: it's the pic of the inside of action 'housing' that holds the rear end of the barrel. It's shiny, isn't it? It was not supposed to cause the damage of o-rings on the barrel. I guess it was the holes, whose edges are sharp enough to cause it. Hopefully some silicon grease should help as assembling.
It took me quite some time removing the valve and other stuff from the air tube since it was real tight. That's why I took a spring compressor (see the first pic) to do it, with frequent spray of silicon spray to protect the o-rings.
Thanks again!
I was wondering about if something was going on in the hammer area.
-
From your original description it definitely sounds like the poppet is leaking. If the leak gets louder when the bolts pulled back it means air is coming through the transfer port and the only way for that to happen in most guns is for the poppet to leak. Sometimes the failure isn't as obvious as that crumbled Crosman poppet, it could still have gotten damaged from the harder hit. Given that yours is still intact it wouldn't be too hard to copy the dimensions and make a new one out of Delrin.
-
Anyone tried the poppet guy on eBay, just curious, I would like a few for the Chief II in case mine give up the ghost, making them is a pain and for some reason I can never get them smooth enough :-)
wll
-
:o
There's a poppet guy on Ebay ???
-
:o
There's a poppet guy on Ebay ???
Delrindepot-4
-
:o
There's a poppet guy on Ebay ???
Delrindepot-4
I see custom fit, I would assume you would send them the specs and have to fit your stem ?
https://www.ebay.com/sch/delrindepot-4/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from= (https://www.ebay.com/sch/delrindepot-4/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=)
-
Hey John,
Are you sure it's standard, not metric? The one I bought from Harborfreight is of metric (like in the previous pic attached); guess I will have to buy the standard set. It's quite inexpensive: $8 for 380 of them.
I doubt I will replace all of them, only those are broken already, since the quality of those on the gun may be better than those from Harborfreight, right?
Can you do me another favor? Would you happen to have a diagram of the rifle disassemblied?
Thanks.
-
I use what fits. In the case of Chief’s barrel o-rings, I use the American sized ones as they seal good. In a 1/16” or 1.5mm cross-section o-ring, I am looking for the o-ring being proud of the diameter by .005 - .007” inch per side for a good seal.
The Metric set will probably work fine. It is just that you hardly ever get an exact replacement size due to all of the varying cross-sections available and what you get in a kit.
Perhaps Ribbonstone can load up an image of the rifle disassembled.
Keith
-
:o
There's a poppet guy on Ebay ???
Delrindepot-4
I see custom fit, I would assume you would send them the specs and have to fit your stem ?
https://www.ebay.com/sch/delrindepot-4/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from= (https://www.ebay.com/sch/delrindepot-4/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=)
Does he make poppets? I know he has delrin and looks like 7075 too.
-
Not finding the photo file....might still be on the old computer....will look tomorrow.
-
May as well seat out all the Chief’s particulars I know (so far):
Have no idea what changes were made to a Chief II or Chief II plus repeater version.
Currently, running a miss-match of some parts from the first and some from the second. Picked the .22 to work with for my uses, can top-swap the .177 barrel and breech, and have most of the parts from the 2nd rifle at hand.
Expensive way to go about things (a 2nd rifle for a parts supply)...many of the parts are likely to find their way into other projects...but I’m loyal to rifles that shoot real well.
Questions:
Early or late version? The early and late parts will interchange….so I guess they had no need to call it Gen.I and Gen.II.
Early version didn’t have an adjusting end cap...later versions do.
Early (skinny degassing hole):
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/32773095867_e3861af0d1_m.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/RW3FB2)DSCN1835 (https://flic.kr/p/RW3FB2) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
Late (wide adjusting hole):
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/32773095837_22c788e414_m.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/RW3FAv)DSCN1834 (https://flic.kr/p/RW3FAv) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
They increased the beveled the rear edge of the striker on the 2nd.
Went to two o rings on the bolt probe.
Some of the screw heads were changed...where one used a slotted screw, might find a hex.
Same-same stuff:
Heavy striker (like 77gr./2.7oz) in both.
No change to the fill system or gauge block that I can see.
Gauge is a long stemmed gauge, gauge block “dead ends” so can use a seal rather than tape. Tube is about 2mm thick,,,,can’t judge strength by thickness, but that’s reasonably thick (and heavy).
What QB78 parts can be used? Trigger and sights….nothing else.
Mods (minimal...wasn’t looking to hot-rod it)...and not really mods as I was mostly fixing things that should have been done differently.
No local source foe the (early version) the bolt probe o-ring. Enlarged the o-ring seat to take the o-ring I did have a source for.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51096927724_67f801cf1f_m.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kRg7qu)DSCN0438 (https://flic.kr/p/2kRg7qu) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
A bit of polishing (not enlarging, just getting the rough high points out) the loading tray, barrel to breech insertion, and the hole for the gauge….just keeping it from eating o-rings when taken apart/put together.
As they came, no mods, could be adjusted up a bit (more like 28-30 foot pounds for the .22, 20 for the .177). 2K fill limits the shot count severely. For my use, adjusted the power down to where it made the best bell-curve I could find.
Did have to make a valve stem. Getting it to seal is a PIA. The seating face of the valve is pretty much dead flat, which makes getting the poppet to seal more difficult.
The metal stem is longer than other valve stems in the parts box….can’t try every valve stem made, but it seems a unique part.
Both barrels checked out cleanly rifled and crowned...not perfection, but acceptable….and both shoot well. Probably a bit of luck in that, can’t swear they’ll all be as cooperative.
Both needed the barrel band…no free floating.
Did change out the valve retention screws, but still won’t fill past 2K.
A few guesses:
1. That 2.7oz. striker does what heavy strikers do: keep the valve dwell higher than needed. Cheap way to make power, but it gobbles air doing it...and makes down tuning more difficult.
2. The later adjustable end caps seem to have about 8 rotations from fist contact with the spring and coming off their threads.
3. Making a poppet:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48732700002_91e6f87bfd_m.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hfkPTy)DSCN2232 (https://flic.kr/p/2hfkPTy) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
The original poppet material seems softer than Delrin and had a slight “cupped” (concave) face….which is likely because of the big flat valve seat. A slightly “round” (convex ) shape in Delrin won’t help power (acts a bit like a bathtub plug), but is easier to get to seal.
3. O-Rings? Everything but the bolt probe o-rings could be sourced locally (at least if you live in a city).
4. Do not over look the fill nipple’s “check”...they used a cheap o-ring that will get squished.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47760821481_5d579516d1_m.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2fLsGgk)DSCN1856 (https://flic.kr/p/2fLsGgk) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
That’s about it so far...other than that, I’m empty of Chief’s Lore.
-
It the valve face like a QB78? With the harder delrin I would think a poppet with a 45° face would work better but you may have to polish the valve throat face. I don't think it would be harder to open. Actually, with anaerodynamic poopet you might get more dwell which may be a bad thing considering the heavy hammer.
Something like this may be a little too much.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6662)
-
Ribbonstone.
Great write up and a wealth in info, thank you very much !!
Also what is the outside diameter of the poppet valve and length --- what is the hole diameter of the poppet rod and how long does it go in?
wll
-
QB valve has that ridge abound the valve's air passage, which I've found to be easier to get a poppet seal on than the Chief's big flat valve seat. Bit more of a PIA with the Chief, but if you keep trying can make one that works.
-
I'll get the valve out the "spare" and measure it as I can (tonite or tomorrow)...not doing me any good inside a spare tube that I'll likely never use.
-
OK...got the replacement valve stem out of the spare valve (am presently using an original to see how long it will last...still alive after 3 years, but suspect.
Remember, was NOT looking for power...so pretty well just made a close copy of the original in Delrin. Are better shapes and diameters if power is a goal...this isn’t one of them.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51097812844_0787e21015.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kRkDxb)DSCN0140 (https://flic.kr/p/2kRkDxb) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
Metal stem is .125” ( a common size).
Needs to be close to 1.53” long from the sealing face of the poppet to match the original. Probably could fudge that a bit.
Made this one .40” (10mm)… original was blown...believe the original started life about that diameter)
Made the spring end .27”...but whatever slide fits into the inside diameter of the issue valve spring (.31”) would work.
The brass band doesn’t do much good (adds a bit more weight...which isn’t a help) and the length of the poppet really is up to you….I was just approximating the original.
Some notes:
1. Sorry...ain’t making them unless I have to...lost most of the shop-gear (and the shed/shop...lightening strike).
2. IF someone was to make them, would likely want the rifle in order to be sure they sealed.
3. The poppet seat on the valve is dead flat...it’s not going to “lap in” like the valve faces with a raised seat.
4. Don’t bother with the brass ring.
5. I made that one 10mm..which is close to the original, and you can find 10mm Delrin rods.
-
OK...got the replacement valve stem out of the spare valve (am presently using an original to see how long it will last...still alive after 3 years, but suspect.
Remember, was NOT looking for power...so pretty well just made a close copy of the original in Delrin. Are better shapes and diameters if power is a goal...this isn’t one of them.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51097812844_0787e21015.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kRkDxb)DSCN0140 (https://flic.kr/p/2kRkDxb) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
Metal stem is .125” ( a common size).
Needs to be close to 1.53” long from the sealing face of the poppet to match the original. Probably could fudge that a bit.
Made this one .40” (10mm)… original was blown...believe the original started life about that diameter)
Made the spring end .27”...but whatever slide fits into the inside diameter of the issue valve spring (.31”) would work.
The brass band doesn’t do much good (adds a bit more weight...which isn’t a help) and the length of the poppet really is up to you….I was just approximating the original.
Some notes:
1. Sorry...ain’t making them unless I have to...lost most of the shop-gear (and the shed/shop...lightening strike).
2. IF someone was to make them, would likely want the rifle in order to be sure they sealed.
3. The poppet seat on the valve is dead flat...it’s not going to “lap in” like the valve faces with a raised seat.
4. Don’t bother with the brass ring.
5. I made that one 10mm..which is close to the original, and you can find 10mm Delrin rods.
Ribbonstone, thank you for your effort, I may get some PEET and make a prototype.
If I do, I'll send it to you for testing :-)
wll
-
Nope....have enough trouble keeping my own stuff running.
-
Hello,
I was wrong about the poppet in my Chief was fine. Please check the pic attached. At least one crack is found and there is another one smaller.
John, you said you made a poppet with delrin. I don't have machine tool or a lathe. Not sure if possible to make it myself. If not, the gun will be worth nothing but being discarded.
Thanks.
-
Hello,
I was wrong about the poppet in my Chief was fine. Please check the pic attached. At least one crack is found and there is another one smaller.
John, you said you made a poppet with delrin. I don't have machine tool or a lathe. Not sure if possible to make it myself. If not, the gun will be worth nothing but being discarded.
Thanks.
I can make you one off Ribbonstone's dimensions.
-
I just ordered some PEEK. will see if I can make one, but have no Idea how deep the poppet hole should be.
I have made poppets for a Liberty but they had leaks, getting that face smooth is tough !
wll
-
I just ordered some PEEK. will see if I can make one, but have no Idea how deep the poppet hole should be.
I have made poppets for a Liberty but they had leaks, getting that face smooth is tough !
wll
Delrin is generally better for a drop in poppet in my opinion, just easier to seal without lapping.
-
I'm planning on taking mine apart. It isn't shooting consistently. You've also got me interested in the internals.
-
I'm planning on taking mine apart. It isn't shooting consistently. You've also got me interested in the internals.
Mine is shooting so well I would HATE to take it apart !!
wll
-
Hey wll, if your Chief shoots well, there is no need to take apart for sure. I took it apart because it is totally broken: 2k psi air leaks to zero psi in about 10 mins. 1st time to dismantle a PCP. I worked on my RWS 54 before, like replacing breech seal, piston seal and so on. It was easier since there was no valve to take care of, and not so many o-rings to replace.
Tom, if you can make a poppet for me, that will be great! Just let me know what you need from my side and how you'd like me to pay for it.
Thanks a lot.
John
-
Well here is the first attempt, anyone with first hand knowledge of the poppet have any input on the dimensions? If people think it'll work I'll send it over, I'd just want to be reimbursed shipping.
-
Well here is the first attempt, anyone with first hand knowledge of the poppet have any input on the dimensions? If people think it'll work I'll send it over, I'd just want to be reimbursed shipping.
that should do it, if you get leak...just chuck it to a drill and slightly pull it away to get it seated. 👍
-
Should the .275 to .390 diameter transition probably be a flat surface instead of a chamfer due to it being the seat for the spring? Good job! Nice looking Poppet!
And Thanks to Ribbonstone for providing the dimensions.
-
Hello,
I was wrong about the poppet in my Chief was fine. Please check the pic attached. At least one crack is found and there is another one smaller.
John, you said you made a poppet with delrin. I don't have machine tool or a lathe. Not sure if possible to make it myself. If not, the gun will be worth nothing but being discarded.
Thanks.
I can make you one off Ribbonstone's dimensions.
If you could make one for me with these dimensions I would be happy to pay you.
-
TOM: thanks for stepping up….all my good tooling was lost when lightening hit the shop shed.
Never really figured out why the original valve stem needed to be that long.
Aligning all the guts oustide the tube, did find that the valve itself does NOT butt up against the internal steel ring (the front breech screw threads in from the top, stock screw from the bottom)...so the 3 valve retention screws are “it” for retention.
Why they machined that ‘step” at on the valve is anyone’s guess, it doesn’t seem to serve any purpose.
Slot in the tube for the striker’s cocking pin is shorter than on QB’s….but there seems to way more valve valve dwell than needed before the striker pin ran out of slot.
So running it outside the tube. If the striker pin was driven all the way to the end of the cocking slot, would depress the valve stem by about .2”.
You won’t really want the striker pin to crash into the end of it’s slot, but that’s still a whole lot more valve dwell than you’d ever need.
Shorter stem would likely work...I’d not want the striker to run into metal during compression, which would really exacerbate bounce.
-
Regarding the stem travel, yeah it's not much. Having an overly long stem is a detriment because it limits the hammer's travel which means you need more hammer spring tension to achieve the necessary lift and dwell. It not only increases cocking effort but also the force acting on the sear which translates back to the trigger pull weight.
As Bob has detailed elsewhere, the maximum possible flow is attained when the poppet has been knocked free of the valve seat by about 25% of the throat's diameter. So for example a valve having a 1/4" diameter throat, it's flowing as much as it can flow when the poppet is lifted by just 1/16", but like Robert said you want to allow for more than that so the hammer doesn't run the risk of smacking the back of the valve* and rebounding, which would make the valve dwell drop precipitously and cause a loss of velocity. I haven't explored the limits of just how miserly we can be but I've never had a problem when having a stem projection of 50% of the throat diameter. So for the hypothetical 1/4" throat in this example, I would leave the stem projecting by 1/8". If making a poppet from scratch, leave it a bit long and then cut or file it down to give the desired projection.
This approach has always worked well for me with models with a typical steel hammer. I like to leave a little more projection when using a lightweight (plastic) hammer, that way if I need a little more lift to get the necessary dwell, there's room for it. I'll use more like 75% of the throat's diameter in that scenario. Again, maybe I could get by with a little less but that has worked well for a number of builds.
If one were to get motivated to explore the absolute minimum, bear in mind that even a steel hammer will often indent a few thousandths after impacting a hardened valve stem a few hundred times. All things being equal, more for a lightweight hammer. Also, a stem that has been press-fitted into a poppet may settle a bit after being impacted a number of times so be sure to account for these changes that will reduce the available lift slightly.
* or the cocking pin reaching the end of its slot, as seems to be the limiting factor for the Chief per Robert’s analysis
-
Don't hold me to exact numbers...guys who live in the mythical world of the 10,000ths are going to argue with me.
Basically I lined up the screw holes for the valve without the poppet return spring (taped it down)...screw holes for the internal steel ring (taped it down)...and the striker at the point where the cocking pin would run into the end of the cocking slot.
IT LOOKS like the tube slot is the same length as the breech cocking slot...would be under-eyeball-noticed difference.
Measured the valve travel (no return spring) from first contact to where the striker’s cocking pin hit the end of it’s slot. NOT that I ever thing it does (or I’d have noticed the metal to metal slam...or it would have left a mark on the end of the slot/cocking pin),
Came up with .2” of possible valve stem travel….not that it actually happens ... the ball-park/make-shift numbers are not engraved in stone.
-
I apologize if I gave the impression of second-guessing the measurements or the method. The only reason I mentioned the cocking pin in the footnote was because I wanted to give the more general case in the body of the message…the scenario where the hammer overdrives the valve stem and rebounds off the back of the valve. In hindsight, I probably should have done it the other way seeing as how the thread is about the Chief in specific.
The TL;DR for my previous reply is leave enough stem travel to get the job done, which isn’t much. Leaving a lot is a waste. Make sure you understand what limits the travel so you can either account for it if necessary or anticipate what will happen if something bottoms out (a good example being the B50 valve spring potentially going to coil bind, driving the stem through the poppet and shattering it).
-
Well here is the first attempt, anyone with first hand knowledge of the poppet have any input on the dimensions? If people think it'll work I'll send it over, I'd just want to be reimbursed shipping.
These are the measurements of my poppet. If you could make one for me using these dimensions I would be happy to pay you.
-
Well here is the first attempt, anyone with first hand knowledge of the poppet have any input on the dimensions? If people think it'll work I'll send it over, I'd just want to be reimbursed shipping.
These are the measurements of my poppet. If you could make one for me using these dimensions I would be happy to pay you.
Sure, I'll see what I can do. This is for a different gun I take it?
-
TOM: thanks for stepping up….all my good tooling was lost when lightening hit the shop shed.
I'd be pretty devastated if I lost my workshop, really sorry to hear that happened.
-
Could have been worse...thunderstorm and a garden hose put out the fire....evidently the 50 feet of boot-leg wiring didn't trip the circuit soon enough. MAde an interresting dead grass strip running from the shed to the house.
Have not been lucky with lightening....40 year ago, was 50 feet away from a stike on campus (UNO...might have been LSUNO back then) that basically cooked ta guy.
Had a previous house (maybe 30 years ago) hit with no obvious damage. Just an odd loud "SNAP" and the circuit breakers tripped. For years never knew what that "snap" was....until I moved/replaced the gas stove. Then I found where a rivet on the back of the stove had been melted and blown though the wall.
20 years ago, me and a hunting buddy felt the hairs on our arms stand up/smelled a kind of ozone smell, dropped to the mud and a tree exploded (steam) 15 feet away.
10 years ago, the shed when "boom".
I'm going to stay out of the rain.
-
Should the .275 to .390 diameter transition probably be a flat surface instead of a chamfer due to it being the seat for the spring? Good job! Nice looking Poppet!
And Thanks to Ribbonstone for providing the dimensions.
Genuinely curious since I don't have tons of experience making poppets, will the tapered spring seat deform the spring? I can flatten it to a 90 degree if that'd be better.
-
Personally (which makes no never mind as I'm not making it)...have kept away from sharp 90degree corners where the spring connects to the poppet. Know that right angles tend to focus stress, so generally radius that corner a bit.
-
Should the .275 to .390 diameter transition probably be a flat surface instead of a chamfer due to it being the seat for the spring? Good job! Nice looking Poppet!
And Thanks to Ribbonstone for providing the dimensions.
Genuinely curious since I don't have tons of experience making poppets, will the tapered spring seat deform the spring? I can flatten it to a 90 degree if that'd be better.
Have not made a poppet as of yet. Have the skills, tools, materials, and some mechanical ability. Just would rather have a solid load bearing surface, (flat, 90 degree), for best performance. And yes, always a corner radius to reduce stress risers. Working too much to have time for my hobbies.
-
Well here is the first attempt, anyone with first hand knowledge of the poppet have any input on the dimensions? If people think it'll work I'll send it over, I'd just want to be reimbursed shipping.
These are the measurements of my poppet. If you could make one for me using these dimensions I would be happy to pay you.
Sure, I'll see what I can do. This is for a different gun I take it?
This is for the Beeman Chief.
-
Well here is the first attempt, anyone with first hand knowledge of the poppet have any input on the dimensions? If people think it'll work I'll send it over, I'd just want to be reimbursed shipping.
These are the measurements of my poppet. If you could make one for me using these dimensions I would be happy to pay you.
Sure, I'll see what I can do. This is for a different gun I take it?
This is for the Beeman Chief.
Any idea if the difference in size is a chief 1 vs 2 thing? I'm not trying to question you, I just want to make sure whatever I make fits.
-
Any idea if the difference in size is a chief 1 vs 2 thing? I'm not trying to question you, I just want to make sure whatever I make fits.
I'm interested in this also as I have a Chief II Plus !!!
wll
-
Well here is the first attempt, anyone with first hand knowledge of the poppet have any input on the dimensions? If people think it'll work I'll send it over, I'd just want to be reimbursed shipping.
These are the measurements of my poppet. If you could make one for me using these dimensions I would be happy to pay you.
Sure, I'll see what I can do. This is for a different gun I take it?
This is for the Beeman Chief.
Any idea if the difference in size is a chief 1 vs 2 thing? I'm not trying to question you, I just want to make sure whatever I make fits.
My rifle is the Chief, not the Chief 2.
-
NOT wishing you bad luck….sooner or later you will have to take the Chief II (plus) apart….could be years from now.
Not having one to pull apart, I’ve no idea what changes they may have made to get it to function as a 3K repeater….just guesses.
Suspect the Commander….the barrel band and rear sight look very “SPA”ish….even though it’s a 3K repeater, it might have a different heritage than the Chief/Chief Ii/Chief II Plus.
There will likely be changes from the Chief to the Chief II.
Just from the pictures...definitely a different receiver...and a different LENGTH receiver.
The bolt throw on the Chief isn’t long enough for a mag. fed repeater…. So I ASSUME that there has to be some changes in the striker/cocking system in order to get the bolt to move farther to the rear….which would also change the striker stroke.
Possibly all sorts of changes I’ve not thought of….or it could be same-same in many aspects.
I’d NOT take it apart just to find out…..buy the time you might NEED to take it apart, would be soon enough.
-
Hey Tom,
I think it is worth trying. Let me have your address so I can send you a check. My address is:
in case you need to call. Not sure if you use Paypal. If you do, I can do Paypal too.
Thanks.
John
-
Hey Tom,
I think it is worth trying. Let me have your address so I can send you a check. My address is: .
in case you need to call. Not sure if you use Paypal. If you do, I can do Paypal too.
Thanks.
John
You may want to PM as the whole internet sees your contact info. Now youll get phone calls from people selling you extended warranties or the social security people who really arent from our government.
-
These measurements are for the Beeman Chief, not the Chief ll.
-
Both poppets are done, I'll PM you guys for your shipping addresses.
I remade the first one so they both have squared off spring seats now.
-
I dont think 90° corners will hurt especially dealing with 2kpsi. Along the same lines from a different angle, a 45 degree face will be as strong as a flat face and probably flow better. I've used delrin up to 7200 psi in testing and not have any extrusion. Nice way to set a poppet. Of course you have to make the od bigger than the throat. On my .37 I have a .250 throat and .356 poppet so this one could have even less restriction.
Here is a peek one that seals on its od.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=7827)
-
I dont think 90° corners will hurt especially dealing with 2kpsi. Along the same lines from a different angle, a 45 degree face will be as strong as a flat face and probably flow better. I've used delrin up to 7200 psi in testing and not have any extrusion. Nice way to set a poppet. Of course you have to make the od bigger than the throat. On my .37 I have a .250 throat and .356 poppet so this one could have even less restriction.
Here is a peek one that seals on its od.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=7827)
That looks awesome, I really want to read on how it works, may work on a Chief II Plus but I don't know ?
wll
-
I dont think 90° corners will hurt especially dealing with 2kpsi. Along the same lines from a different angle, a 45 degree face will be as strong as a flat face and probably flow better. I've used delrin up to 7200 psi in testing and not have any extrusion. Nice way to set a poppet. Of course you have to make the od bigger than the throat. On my .37 I have a .250 throat and .356 poppet so this one could have even less restriction.
Here is a peek one that seals on its od.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=7827)
That looks awesome, I really want to read on how it works, may work on a Chief II Plus but I don't know ?
wll
This was not for a QB but for a larger .344 throat valve. It worked ok. For these 2kpsi guns or even the 3kpsi delrin is perfect.
-
In my opinion the only time you should use PEEK is when Delrin won't hold up, it's an amazing material but getting a good valve seal with it is a pain.
I've always been worried if a tapered seat will clear the throat all the way, I would think it needs more lift than a flat seat.
Do you think a tapered seat would be better for a 2k PSI rifle, I forgot the original chief wasn't 3k.
-
In my opinion the only time you should use PEEK is when Delrin won't hold up, it's an amazing material but getting a good valve seal with it is a pain.
I've always been worried if a tapered seat will clear the throat all the way, I would think it needs more lift than a flat seat.
Do you think a tapered seat would be better for a 2k PSI rifle, I forgot the original chief wasn't 3k.
I don't have any evidence or knowledge on that. I just look at aerodynamics. Air going by a flat poppet has to go past two corners and maybe a "hump" where the tapered goes "almost" straight in. They also look very sexy. Also, with 2kpsi you can get a tapered one much smaller. I think 20% is for 3kpsi so technically you could go smaller. Again it could probably stand a lighter hammer and any power mods are probably going to lower shot count.
Bob would know about the best poppet design and probably has a chart that says otherwise. I also know there are air pillows (not the ones made by My Pillow Guy) formed with steps in the air path that may help to direct air efficiently sometimes.
-
Thanks Dan for the reminder.
Regards.
-
Just an update, the poppets got sent out as of this afternoon, here's a comparison between the gen one and two for anyone interested.
-
Thanks for posting.
Poppets look Good! I believe that the angled valve face would be a good design as long as there is enough material in the valve seat area to accommodate it. My Chief is partially apart now. Have not had enough time to work on it due to life, (Honey-doos, etc, .....). Shortening the barrel to fix oversized lead-in, fixing the trigger, and will be making a new Delrin poppet.
-
Just an update, the poppets got sent out as of this afternoon, here's a comparison between the gen one and two for anyone interested.
Thank you very much for the pics, I'm all ears on seeing how they work.
wll
-
All this talk of disassembly of the chief should include a warning for replacement screws. I was just reading my notes about pressure testing and came across chief screw failure.
I have not taken apart my chief yet but will be installing some 10-32 screws that should just involve tapping maybe with a taper then bottom tap. You can get the good screws on the internet via several sources.
This test is just for the screws. Tube not tested. So don't over fill this thing even if you replace them.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=139379.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=139379.0)
-
Hey guys how did the popits work in your chiefs. Just in case I might need one some day I would like to know if the dimensions are good. THANKS
-
Hey guys, please let me know. ;) ???
-
Hey guys how did the popits work in your chiefs. Just in case I might need one some day I would like to know if the dimensions are good. THANKS
I'd like to know also. I have a Gen 1 that's been dormant for quite some time now.
-
Me as well. Good gun and so far no issues but better to be prepared.
-
Hey guys I ordered the poppet and received it but it was the wrong one it was for the gen two i needed the poppet for the gen 1 any they corrected it and sent me the right one for the gen one.the gen two is 33mm and the gen one is 35mm.the problem I’m having now is the when I air up and let sit up over night the gun is empty of air when I check it,reason this is happening I think is ,I was not willing to set and let this beautiful gun sit so I put the poppet for the gen two in my gun and in order to make it shoot I sanded down the round block that sits behind the valve assembly so that it would make up for the short valve for the gen two,now since I got the correct poppet in I think it’s letting are out,because it thinks the reservoir is empty to the point where it will bleed of the air.if anyone has a block that they have or can make to spec please let me know,Beeman.com is no help what so ever I must say.please help,this gun is definitely one of the greatest pcps I have ever owned,I got all of the cheap ones I must say ,as a Army veteran you get what you can afford and make it work,which I’m very good at,thanks guys and girls for your help,thanks Canada you have saved me for sure.