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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Beltfed on February 27, 2021, 11:09:46 AM
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I've been searching this forum for a while now. There is so much info here it is unbelievable. Im a long range BR shoot and so is my 9yr old but with supplies being non existent. I'm saving current inventory to keep lil man shooting matches. So that's why we are here. We purchased an Avenger that arrived yesterday. I mounted a Sightron STAC 4-20X50 in seekins rings and set up a target to zero at 30 yds. Dialed to 100 and had first rd impacts.
As we shot we fell off the reg probably 60 rds into shooting. I degassed the gun set the reg to a min. Set the hammer spring to two turns in and refilled the gun. It was leaking from somewhere. I reseated the bleed screw thinking that may have been it and it was still leaking. I gave up and went to supper. Came back and tried to refill as it only had about 2k left in it but wasn't leaking. I filled it to 3k and no leaks. Did I do something wrong?
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Might be new gun quirks, speck of something in the fill port seal etc. keep an eye on it if persistent or worsens send it in for warranty. another thing with the lower reg. setting is perhaps the hammer spring was letting some air seep out the valve.
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Because there is still some pressure on the poppet stem of the valve from the hammer, it is best when the rifle has been degassed to cock the rifle before trying to refill with air. Obviously, just be sure the rifle is unloaded and on safe.
Welcome to the world of pcp, assuming you were filling from a hand pump. The above isn't quite as critical when filling from a tank as the sudden blast of air can help reseat the poppet. If you haven't done so already, check out Steve's video's and tuning guide on Youtube. HE goes by AEAC.
https://youtu.be/oUpBxCbi5o8
https://youtu.be/2D_Zml_2wd4
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Appreciate all the help. Not being cocked makes perfect sense. I was filling from a scuba tank but I was very slowly filling since I'm very new to this. I'm used to tuning firearms. And even building my own like my browning 1919. Or my integrally suppressed form 1 stuff. This pcp is just a different critter. And requires a learning curve. I've watch all the videos and that is why I was setting the reg to 1800
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I should have asked what pellet brand and weight did you choose? My Nova Liberty is made by the same manufacturer and shares the same barrel. I think you'll find accuracy is best with JSB 15.89's 18.13's and Barracuda match 21.14's, however, your mileage may vary. Your rifle should shoot one hole groups at 30 with no more than 3/8 inch center to center, and sub 1/2 groups at 50 with the right ammo.
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I thought my 25 caliber Avenger did not leak at first. I degassed it, set the regulator down to 1500-1600, and then pumped it up to 3000. I let it set overnight and it still seemed to be the same the next morning. But later I noticed if it sat for a day or two, pressure was definitely going down. I was loosing 150-200 psi a day. So I called Air Venturi and got a return authorization and sent it back to them for repair. I do not have it back yet but they were VERY nice about it. It sounds like you may not have an issue but if you do, they seem to be good to work with. I get 850 fps with H&N FTT, about 20 grains, and almost 800 fps with JSB 25.4 grain with the 1600 regulator setting.
Mine is a different caliber but also likes JSBs. Heavies may be the best but 25.4 grain are also good. FX 25 grain seem to shoot a little better than JSB 25 grain. JSB makes the FXs but they are a little different shape. Others have reported good accuracy with Hatsan Vortex in 25. The only pellet my Avenger doesn't like much is H&N FTT. My Prod loves them in 22.
If you shoot powder burners you probably have a chronograph but, if not, or you just want one for inside or low light conditions, there is a cheap ($35) chinese unit that most of us have good luck with. There is a thread on the airgun accessories page about it. I don't see a need to shoot shot strings with a regulated PCP but it is nice to know what sort of velocity you are getting with a given regulator setting. Under 900 fps is usually recommended for pellets. My other PCP, a Benjamin Marauder pistol (that I shoot as a carbine) will not get to 800 fps with the pellets it likes. I am using a tune for it (it is not regulated) that shoots H&N FTT or Crosman domed at 700-750 fps. It kills squirrels nicely to at least 25 yards with a hit to the vitals. It was accurate with it's original ~600-650 fps tune. So if you want to maximize shot count, you could even try lower regulator settings.
You may also be able to back off on the hammer spring. I got no velocity increase at a 1600 regulator setting from turning the hammer spring in. So backed it back off. Normal practice seems to be to increase the hammer spring as long as velocity is increasing and then back off a tad. Seems to result in a balanced accurate setting.
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Wow.. really loving the feed back here. I ordered JSB 18.13, hades 15.89, and some H&N slugs 21 gr .217 dia.
The only thing we shot were the 18.13 but they shot 1/2 at 30 in some stupid wind. Dialing to 100 and watching the wind we were both wearing a 4" plate out. But it was factory tuned to just over 1080 fps with a 15. Pullet. I didn't chrono the 18.13s.
As for chronos I don't really put much faith in them from my time shooting BR. My load never seems to be the chronos choice. Maybe because non of them are capable of reading as close as my SDs are. But with the pellets being 1/3 the speed or less they may be alot better tuning tool. I do own one for working up subsonic loads for my integrals. But I prefer to listen to what the rifle is telling me on powder guns. Don't know if pcps are the same. Would love any insights you guys may have since the pcp world is new to me I'm open to learning new tricks
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I don't notice much difference in how the gun sounds when shooting either of my PCPs but others indicate a gun sounds different when it is well tuned.
With my unregulated Prod, you can fill it to 3,000 psi but if you do on the stock tune, your velocity will be ~100 fps lower until you get to around 2500 psi. Then it falls off again at around 1500 psi. So on the stock tune I did not fill over 2500 psi and stopped shooting when I got to around 1500. I changed the tune by drilling out the transfer port and now fill to about 2800 and stop at around 1800 psi. I wanted a bit more power for squirrels. Knowing how high to fill this gun and when velocity falls off is useful. But you could do the same thing by shooting targets and noting the change in POI. I do this too but use the chrono readings to start with. It is somewhat surprising but my POI doesn't change significantly, noticably, at 100 ft with the 50 fps change over my shots from 2800 to 1800 psi.
With the Avenger, one thing I could learn by doing a shot string is how much velocity variation there is but I am sure it is less than 50 fps. It is probably no more than 30 fps. On $1500 guns, it is sometimes down to 10 fps. But for the short distance I am shooting I don't think I care much what it is for my Avenger. I use the chronograph to see where I need to set the regulator for the pellets it likes. I plan to go up to at least 1800 psi when I get the gun back and will probably need to go to 2000 or a bit more. I want to have 850-900 fps for a reasonably flat trajectory with good accuracy. If I decide that JSB heavies are the best pellet for my gun, I will probably have to go a bit higher on power. Another factor I am considering is adequate power to shoot a hog in the brain and reliably kill it. Even with my 1600 psi regulator setting my Avenger will shoot through 3/4 plywood which is reportedly a reasonable test for hog skull penetration but it only does it with the heavier JSB pellets (which are going about 700 fps with my current low regulator setting). But I also want a reasonably number of shots per fill - 4 magazines would be nice (32 shots in 25).
But you don't have to use a chronograph but I think one is really nice to have for my unregulated PCP. An on the Avenger, I still like to know the velocity to know what to expect in the trajectory. I hope to be able to zero the Avenger for 100 ft and still be within about 1/4 inch down to about 15 yards. The Prod will not do that, I zero it at 25 yards.
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When I said listen to what the gun is telling me. I meant reading the target and making appropriate changes in seating depth or powder to get it to come into tune. I've heard people say that they could literally tell when a pcp is in tune buy hearing it. That's strange to me but harmonics are harmonics. I'll take their word cause this is new to me
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As far as knowing the pellets trajectory. That's easy without a chrono. Trueing your calculator has to be done even if you know the fps on powder guns. We Make the app read what the real world performance tells us. I'm assuming it can be done the same way with air rifles since the app I'm using is the same.
First dial up was from 30 yds to 100yds yesterday and first rd hits on a 4" plate. We would have pushed it farther but ran out of air and the wind being so bad. We called it a day. The goal is to shoot this gun 25-200 yds for a course of fire to mimic what he has to do in a steel match on his match rifle. So far it's making a great trainer. Just got some tuning to do.
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On my Avenger .22 I set REG at 2000 and do no fill over 3500 psi.... I have some HPA rifles that are 10 years old (no leaks) that REG was set at 1900 psi to not over-stress reg....The REG was a 4500 psi input/ 2700 psi output REG by design.
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I wanted to get this trifle as well but decided not too because the air compressor as well is too much. So if you hand pump how many shots less would you get out the 22 or 25 version,than using a compressor.?
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My gun came charged to 3k or so. We got 60 shots or so before we fell off the reg. And probably another 15 before we got to 1000. Anything you put in the gun over the reg pressure you just get more shots. Once you reach the reg pressure it doesn't stop it just starts loosing velocity every shot. I'm impressed with the gun. The leak may have been induced by me. By not coming it when I degassed it.
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On my Avenger .22 I set REG at 2000 and do no fill over 3500 psi.... I have some HPA rifles that are 10 years old (no leaks) that REG was set at 1900 psi to not over-stress reg....The REG was a 4500 psi input/ 2700 psi output REG by design.
My goal was to lessen the reg to get a few more shots out of it and get the velocity down to the 860 range
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My gun came charged to 3k or so. We got 60 shots or so before we fell off the reg. And probably another 15 before we got to 1000. Anything you put in the gun over the reg pressure you just get more shots. Once you reach the reg pressure it doesn't stop it just starts loosing velocity every shot. I'm impressed with the gun. The leak may have been induced by me. By not coming it when I degassed it.
Ok cool yea that I'm understanding a little better now. So do you handpump, if so what psi do you fill the tank. And with that psi where do u set regulator as low as possible.? & is that To get the most shots / does that lower velocity as well.? Thanks
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My gun came charged to 3k or so. We got 60 shots or so before we fell off the reg. And probably another 15 before we got to 1000. Anything you put in the gun over the reg pressure you just get more shots. Once you reach the reg pressure it doesn't stop it just starts loosing velocity every shot. I'm impressed with the gun. The leak may have been induced by me. By not coming it when I degassed it.
Ok cool yea that I'm understanding a little better now. So do you handpump, if so what psi do you fill the tank. And with that psi where do u set regulator as low as possible.? & is that To get the most shots / does that lower velocity as well.? Thanks
No I fill from a 3000 psi scuba tank right now. I've got two 66 cf 4500 tanks also. I'm trying to learn on the lower tank so no danger of over pressuring anything. It's filled it to 2900 or so a couple times already.
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How you put the air in your PCP doesn't change what it does. I have pumped my Avenger to 4,000 psi or a little more a couple times. I have to lean on the pump significantly but it is very possible to do. Once the air is in the gun, the gun doesn't know if it came from a bottle, a compresser or a hand pump. You probably assume a lower fill with a hand pump but that isn't necessarily the case. I've also filled to 3500 with my pump and still got 3 or 4 magazines and it wasn't at the regulator setting yet. So I'm guessing 40-50 shots at my low 1600 regulator setting (which is still 35-40 fpe on my 25).
I only filled to 3,000 at first because I was using my Benjamin hand pump and it can't go to 4,500 like my newer Chinese hand pump.
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How you put the air in your PCP doesn't change what it does. I have pumped my Avenger to 4,000 psi or a little more a couple times. I have to lean on the pump significantly but it is very possible to do. Once the air is in the gun, the gun doesn't know if it came from a bottle, a compresser or a hand pump. You probably assume a lower fill with a hand pump but that isn't necessarily the case. I've also filled to 3500 with my pump and still got 3 or 4 magazines and it wasn't at the regulator setting yet. So I'm guessing 40-50 shots at my low 1600 regulator setting (which is still 35-40 fpe on my 25).
I only filled to 3,000 at first because I was using my Benjamin hand pump and it can't go to 4,500 like my newer Chinese hand pump.
Just what I wanted to hear 👌💪. So what hand pump might you recommend to get me at 4000psi possibly more. Like a pump that won't break in a month.? I thought I could only get there with a compressor. But I'm still learning.
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Another PCP newby here. Just got my first (Avenger 25cal) a week ago.
Mine arrived with about 1000 psi in the reservoir. I degassed, set reg to minimum 1/4 turn. Hand pumped to 3100 psi with Hill MK5 pump. I'm also a newby to pumps....this one is rated for 4500 psi.
My reg came up to right at 1600 psi, and Chrono's the JSB 25.4 grain at 790 fps with the hammer spring all the way out. I nudged the regulator up maybe 1/8 turn more, to 810 fs. It shot great there, so I left it.
First session was 28 shots. Reg moved from 3100 down to 2200.
I put the pump back on it, and pumped it up to 4100 psi. It has been sitting there for a couple days, no apparent loss of pressure.
With the Hill pump, I gain 600 psi with every 50 strokes of the pump. I'm at 4000' elevation. Maybe less strokes at lower elevation? Pumping got noticeably more resistance above 3000 psi, but using straight arms, bending knees, and putting my 230 lbs on it, it goes on down. I take it slow and steady. It's not as difficult as I had imagined.
(https://i.imgur.com/4HyZsEP.jpg)
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Awesome I'm going to look into that hand pump thanks for your input.
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Awesome I'm going to look into that hand pump thanks for your input.
This is the pump I went with.
https://www.airgundepot.com/hill-pump-mk5.html (https://www.airgundepot.com/hill-pump-mk5.html)
At $200, it's a whole lot more then the typical $50 China/Ebay pumps I see. Is it really worth it? I don't honestly know. I'm so green with PCP that I don't even know what I don't know.
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Awesome I'm going to look into that hand pump thanks for your input.
This is the pump I went with.
https://www.airgundepot.com/hill-pump-mk5.html (https://www.airgundepot.com/hill-pump-mk5.html)
At $200, it's a whole lot more then the typical $50 China/Ebay pumps I see. Is it really worth it? I don't honestly know. I'm so green with PCP that I don't even know what I don't know.
Hahaha that's exactly what I'd expect to hear from a marine. ... I appreciate your service.
Saw the mk and my brain immediately filled in mk14. lol
Maybe you get more psi per pump on higher end pumps and longer lasting seals . Who knows
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I hand pump my Avenger .22 with a cheap chinese air pump. Every time I use it I refill to about 4100-4200 psi. Its not that hard and usually just over 2 strokes per shot fired so if I shoot 30 rounds it takes just over 60 strokes (63-65 at most). 50 shots fired is around 110 or so pumps. I'm 5'9 and 175, the wrong side of 60 and don't find it hard to do at all.
Regarding pellets try the Air Arms Diabolo Field 16 gr. I find they shoot better than anything else I've tried including the JSB exact heavy.
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I use a cheap chinese hand pump to fill my Avenger, mine is a 25 caliber. I did not enjoy the 250 pumps it took me to get from zero to 4,000 psi after I emptied it to turn down the regulator. But normal refills are a lot less strokes and not that bad. I am 65, 6'2" and weigh about 185. Weight helps. Sometimes I just fill to 3500. It gives me less shots but sometimes it gives me enough shots.
I will probably buy a compressor and bottle but I will still want my hand pumps as a backup.
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Thank for sharing all the info guys. Truly helps I think im going to make the leap for a venturi. Now to find one in stock with good customer service. & the ammo lol.
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After spending the past few days with some older pumper bb guns I've got the urge to get back to the big toys.
Got my .25 Avenger out after a month or so of sitting in the gun cabinet. To my joy, it was still holding full pressure at just over 4k. The Regulator gauge was right at 2300 where I set it.
I loaded up 6 mags of JSB Kings and it's sitting on the cradle in the gun room... ready to go.
Just wish there was some daylight left to the day when I got off work of the evening... :-\
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For those that are curious. I bled it down again last night reset the reg again. But I cocked it before I bled it down. I also slowly brought the pressure up till the one way valve opened and then then sped the fill up till about 2k then slowed back down till I'd leveled off the tank just under 2900. This method had no leaking at all. Pretty sure I induced what happened the first time. Can't wait for a calmer day(it's been storming here) to reach out to 200 with it
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The venturi is a great rifle I believe , that's why it's sold out everywhere. Bummer. Change of plans I'm going to sell 1 of my firearms and I'm going with a hatson Blitz !
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In terms of being in or out of stock they were in for about a month beginning sometime in December and continuing into January. I almost waited too long. No idea when another shipment will arrive. I need to call sometime this week to check on my warranty repair, maybe I will ask when the next shipment is supposed to arrive.