GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Back Room => Topic started by: Novagun on January 17, 2021, 03:19:28 PM
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What terribly bad luck. American Magic suffered a bad capsize during racing on Waitemata Harbour. Serious damage and could have sunk. The skipper of Team New Zealand was close by and was seen on the American boat helping with the salvage. Team NZ are experts at capsize because they have done it three times. Maybe the American team were a bit bewildered by what happened. No injuries thank goodness. The off side team of grinders must have been trapped under water for a while but they do have breathing gear.
Here's to the American sailors. We all hope they can make repairs and get racing by Friday. Those blokes are capable of that sort of effort. New Zealanders will help them if they are needed.
Kia kaha.
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American Magic was very badly damaged but a combined effort from rival teams saved her. They worked on the hull all night but no hope ofr being back in action on Friday. The teams are working round the clock on her and she will be back again racing. They are talking of no racing this weekend so she might be back in the hunt.
The America skipper has been impressive on TV with the calm gentlemanly way he has handled a major disaster in one of the worlds big sporting events.
They are seriously fast sail boats hitting 40 plus knots and probably capable of more and she was moving fast when she leapt out of the water and fell back in.
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Thank you for the update my friend.
Glad to hear everyone is ok.
Wow had no idea they could go 40+ knots that pretty fast.
Please keep us posted
Take care my friend
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American Magic was very badly damaged but a combined effort from rival teams saved her. They worked on the hull all night but no hope ofr being back in action on Friday. The teams are working round the clock on her and she will be back again racing. They are talking of no racing this weekend so she might be back in the hunt.
The America skipper has been impressive on TV with the calm gentlemanly way he has handled a major disaster in one of the worlds big sporting events.
They are seriously fast sail boats hitting 40 plus knots and probably capable of more and she was moving fast when she leapt out of the water and fell back in.
So more like a surfboard porpoising?
Because when you say “America’s cup boat capsized.”
I think, “Have you seen the weight on the keel of one of those boats? How does that capsize?”
Crazy. I’ve both swamped and capsized sailboats. Never a big one with a weighted keel.
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American Magic was very badly damaged but a combined effort from rival teams saved her. They worked on the hull all night but no hope ofr being back in action on Friday. The teams are working round the clock on her and she will be back again racing. They are talking of no racing this weekend so she might be back in the hunt.
The America skipper has been impressive on TV with the calm gentlemanly way he has handled a major disaster in one of the worlds big sporting events.
They are seriously fast sail boats hitting 40 plus knots and probably capable of more and she was moving fast when she leapt out of the water and fell back in.
So more like a surfboard porpoising?
Because when you say “America’s cup boat capsized.”
I think, “Have you seen the weight on the keel of one of those boats? How does that capsize?”
Crazy. I’ve both swamped and capsized sailboats. Never a big one with a weighted keel.
The current AC75 yachts don't have keels.
They use a combination of weighted foils and the foil being outboard of the hull to provide stability.
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I did not know this happened. It is hard to find AC news here in the US. Thanks for the update.
NYAC has not been having a good go of it lately.
BTW I was very surprised to see AC news in an airgun group until I saw your sig line and saw you are a Kiwi.
Thanks again for the update.
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These boats could be liken to a 75 foot surf board. The have no keel and ride in the water till they reach about 10 knots and then the ride up out of the water and are supported by an inverted Y shaped foil set about midships. There is one on each side of the boat and they are raised and lowered by hand driven hydaulic pumps. Eight very strong men providing the hydraulic power through hand cranks like bicycle pedals. The boat is supported by a foil on one side of the boat with the windward side one raised out of the water and the stern of the boat is supported on a foil on the central rudder
What happened in the capsize is that the helmsman rounded a mark and set off in another direction. As he did so the rudder sucked in air down the blade to the rudder foil and that aerated the foil and it lost lift. That caused the stern to drop and that increased the angle of attack of the main foil which shot the boat into the air. Not sure how fast it was going at the time but between 30 to 40 knots. I would not be at all surprised if these boat hit 50 knots during racing. Team NZ has achieved that at least once.
Anyway Team NZ boat builders and the Americans are flat out getting American Magic back into the water. They are not washed up ashore by a long shot.
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Apparently the US boat was going about 47 knots when it went airborne.... she was bearing away and accelerating in a puff after a mark rounding.... :o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I595VdiBLRo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I595VdiBLRo)
The damage occurred when it landed, putting a good size hole in the hull.... They are pretty lucky it didn't sink, I saw one photo where it only have about a foot of boat showing for about half the length of the hull.... Computer predictions were for a top speed of about 50 knots, and the fastest "official" speed so far was the NZ boat, at 49.1 knots.... They race at "only" about 30 knots when foilborne.... ::)
Bob
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Yes Mr Sterne, I am not sure what the average speed per race per boat is but watching the readout from the boats they are regularly topping 40 knots. I recall 44kts several times and they are developing them all the time. The chase boats have three big outboards on them to keep up. They have to be capable of very high speeds. I drove a runabout with a 200 hp Mercury outboard a couple of times. That could get to 40 plus knots. Not for me, too fast.
It is interesting to note that the Americans and Italians have called for displacement boats for the next Americas Cup series. They must foresee speeds becoming dangerous.
These boats are so fast there is no real downwind leg. They are going faster than windspeed. Windward all the time.
Not sure how they do that because there is no such thing as free lunch.
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They reach when on the downwind legs, and their speed pulls the apparent wind forward and increases it.... Sailboats work on the difference in wind velocity between the air and water, removing energy from the air and transferring it to the water (plus the inevitable drag loss).... The limit to how close they can sail to the apparent wind is the vector sum of the lift to drag ratio of the sails and hull (in this case the foils).... I understand the Kiwi boat can sail higher for short distances (ie near mark roundings, or at the start), so they must have discovered some trick way to use the foils to increase the lift to drag ratio.... likely at the cost of boat momentum, which is why it only works for a short time.... Neat trick, with a huge tactical advantage, though.... 8)
I was invited to join a Canadian America's Cup challenge decades ago, based on my R/C yacht experience and expertise.... along with Bruce Kirby, Donny Martin, and other top Canadian designers.... This was during the post 12M era, when they sailed fin and bulb displacement designs, which of course model yachts had already been using then for decades.... Here was a model I build of my proposed design.... and extreme lightweight compared to the typical AC of that era....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/CohoAC.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/p/dc25b4bb-5f4c-4739-8f1e-180511108fba)
Unfortunately, the Canadian team never got off the ground, due to lack of funding.... but it was a nice dream, and a great honour to be included at the time.... 8) .... Incidently, I had a keel on one of my R/C yachts that could be angled relative to the hull centreline.... It did exactly what the Kiwis are accomplishing, the boat would point incredibly high for a short time, while bleeding off speed.... ;)
Bob
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They reach when on the downwind legs, and their speed pulls the apparent wind forward and increases it.... Sailboats work on the difference in wind velocity between the air and water, removing energy from the air and transferring it to the water (plus the inevitable drag loss).... The limit to how close they can sail to the apparent wind is the vector sum of the lift to drag ratio of the sails and hull (in this case the foils).... I understand the Kiwi boat can sail higher for short distances (ie near mark roundings, or at the start), so they must have discovered some trick way to use the foils to increase the lift to drag ratio.... likely at the cost of boat momentum, which is why it only works for a short time.... Neat trick, with a huge tactical advantage, though.... 8)
I was invited to join a Canadian America's Cup challenge decades ago, based on my R/C yacht experience and expertise.... along with Bruce Kirby, Donny Martin, and other top Canadian designers.... This was during the post 12M era, when they sailed fin and bulb displacement designs, which of course model yachts had already been using then for decades.... Here was a model I build of my proposed design.... and extreme lightweight compared to the typical AC of that era....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/CohoAC.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/p/dc25b4bb-5f4c-4739-8f1e-180511108fba)
Unfortunately, the Canadian team never got off the ground, due to lack of funding.... but it was a nice dream, and a great honour to be included at the time.... 8) .... Incidently, I had a keel on one of my R/C yachts that could be angled relative to the hull centreline.... It did exactly what the Kiwis are accomplishing, the boat would point incredibly high for a short time, while bleeding off speed.... ;)
Bob
Been awhile. But that’s how I remember AC boats looking. My grandfather was really into sailing. Crewed an AC chase boat way back when they were in San Diego.
I remember going with him and seeing a boat get lifted out of the water. Then extremely quickly, people were hiding the keel before pictures could be taken of it.
I guess that was 20 years ago and the boats are different now.
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Yes Mr Sterne, I am not sure what the average speed per race per boat is but watching the readout from the boats they are regularly topping 40 knots. I recall 44kts several times and they are developing them all the time. The chase boats have three big outboards on them to keep up. They have to be capable of very high speeds. I drove a runabout with a 200 hp Mercury outboard a couple of times. That could get to 40 plus knots. Not for me, too fast.
It is interesting to note that the Americans and Italians have called for displacement boats for the next Americas Cup series. They must foresee speeds becoming dangerous.
These boats are so fast there is no real downwind leg. They are going faster than windspeed. Windward all the time.
Not sure how they do that because there is no such thing as free lunch.
My grandfather was some type of engineer. Worked on the SDI and knew a lot about physics.
He was explaining some way sails can make there own wind or amplify wind, but I didn’t really understand.
Maybe it’s similar to winglets reducing induced drag?
I remember being maybe 9 and he drew for me why sailboats go fastest in a reach.
Me, “So a sail is like an airplane wing stuck to the mast?”
Him, “You got it.”
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I found a really good 11-minute overview video on youtube about AM and the cup status in general
https://youtu.be/3JzXybmTMW4 (https://youtu.be/3JzXybmTMW4)
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England has just beaten Italy in the round robin. Exiting; I am all puffed out just watching. Italy sailed a brilliant race leading most of the way but Brent Ainslie is just a brilliant, really brilliant helmsman. Won by 33 seconds but looked as if Ainslie took the wind as he crossed the line.
44 point something top speed that I saw.
Exiting racing best seen from TV.
Come on Patriot get back there and make me get puffed out again. They should be back in the water for testing on Wednesday. 75 foot boats handlinng like dinghies. I reckon you would have to hold on as they go about. Nah, they must be strapped in.
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Stephen
Thanks so much for posting that link. I was able to show some friends both the past AC72 and the current AC75 boats.
People who are not in the know are absolutely blown away at what the new technology is these days.
I so miss sailing.
:D
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The British boat topped 50 knots today.... 50.29 knots at one point.... Man do things happen fast in that racing.... So much for yacht racing like watching grass grow or paint dry.... EXCITING stuff.... 8)
Bob
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Just like Magic, Patriot 2.0 is back....
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p640x640/142734874_824246588132135_3933137373899582617_o.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=2&_nc_sid=0be424&_nc_ohc=IiLxs1XC_kkAX_hQB55&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&tp=6&oh=b6fce3508b7943982640cb9b51edc5c9&oe=60351FFE)
That has to be the COOLEST repair job ever, love the crossed band-aids where the hole was, to thank the other teams.... 8)
Bob
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Thanks Bob!
:D
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Well she is back in the water and hit 45 knots in testing. I bet she has more to give. Racing today. More spectator stress. It is reported that the boat et al cost 100 million dollars. That disturbs me. Not sure if that includes repairs but I think not.. On a better note we are quietly impressed with Terry Hutchinson.
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Well not a good day for American Magic. She looked to be under canvassed. She had rudder niggkes during trial and lost control in each race today. On the plus side she hit 53 knots. That is realy fast. Phew that is fast. If the rules allow she will have a new rudder by tmw and she will come out with decent sails.. woops niggles.
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Thanks again for the updates.
Where are you getting your info?
Two weekends ago Comcast had the broadcast accurately listed, but last weekends listing ended up being snowboarding (Not the Prada Cup as shown).
Is there a site where you can watch the races?
:D
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https://www.americascup.com/ (https://www.americascup.com/)
Bob
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I get my info from watching the races live on NZ television. The coverage from on board cameras and helicopters and graphic displays of the course is better than being there. The spectator boats lining the course must be watching on TV. The TV also has displays of speed, course and windspeed and direction.. the sailers don't look like Jack Tars. They have crash helmets and full face goggles and intercom . More like jet fighter pilots.
Pictures of the helmsman show a man getting shaken around. Like driving a tractor fast over rough ground.
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Thank you both Bob and Hugh.
Apparently Comcast cannot keep up with things.
I have been watching the americascup.com link, but was hoping that I could catch it "on channel" so that I could record via DVR. It's OK, at least I can view the highlights.
I would prefer to see the entire race from pre-start to finish, as there are so many little things that one can catch, yet are not mentioned or highlighted. Just those little things that only a sailor would notice, ya know?
I still have VCR tapes from ESPN of the 1983 Cup race, as I had started sailing in 1982.
God, I so miss those days.
:(
Again, thanks guys!
:D
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American Magic is out of the Prada Cup. What a disappointment. She had a different main on today but still not good enough. Nevertheless last race she hit 53 knots that is nearly 61 mph. Not an achievement to be sneezed at.
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Yeah, too bad they had a mechanical problem in the 4th race.... I don't think they would have won (without a big shift, or a mistake by Prada), but you never like to see a boat limping home.... The boats are spectacular, I can't wait for the Prada Cup finals.... I will be cheering for the Brits, however.... ;)
Bob
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Well there you go. Two wins to Prada today. the Italians sailed two very smooth and controlled races. Definitely champions of the day.
Ineos looked a bit dull even though she got to 44 knots. The Italians had their boat going just that bit faster and consistently.
The series is not decided until the minimum of another fives races. I am not cheering for either boat. Just anxious for both.
I watched with my wife and she said, "what are you tapping your foot for?''
And the spectator fleet even though there are covid restrictions. Some Sheik of Araby type power yachts and all the mum and dad New Zealand boats.
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Well I'm cheering for the Brits, but it ain't looking too good at the moment.... ::) .... If the get stronger winds today, hopefully we will see the series tied up.... Either way, you have to love the performance of the yachts.... the first really exciting yacht racing in decades, IMO....
Bob
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Well I'm cheering for the Brits, but it ain't looking too good at the moment.... ::) .... If the get stronger winds today, hopefully we will see the series tied up.... Either way, you have to love the performance of the yachts.... the first really exciting yacht racing in decades, IMO....
Bob
I agree Rob. Even the commentators are stating that this is much more Match racing style than they anticipated.
I just happened to catch the last two legs of the second race last night, and hopefully I'll be more on top of the TV schedule tonight, but as I said before, Comcast just can't seem to provide an accurate broadcast time.
Anyway, what I also gathered from the commentary last night was that the Brits may not be so good in stronger breezes, and that they may also be messing around with the boat (as they say) "whilst" in the shed and thus over-tuning it. There was also some mention about the choice of the size of jib between the two teams. AND, the commentators mentioned that perhaps the Brits should bring out the "other" boat??
All I can say is that this is the most exciting AC racing I have seen in decades (and Rob, didn't mean to repeat your statement, but it is true!!).
Now that the Americans are out, I'm with Novagun. I don't care who wins, I just want to see some exciting racing.
:D
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The Brits are in a BIG hole now, down 4-0.... ::)
Bob
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Taking that huge flyer at the start didn't help them much.
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Well did you see that. The English have a good boat and they are sailing it well. The Italians have a very good boat and they are sailing it very well.
That "very" makes all the difference. They are consistently sailing just a bit faster. They won both starts and that is a big advantage that let them sit on top of Ineos all the way in both races. Even when they made a bad mistake rounding the mark in race one they were able to recover and keep on top of Ineos. The lead dropped to about 60 metres just after the mark.
Ineos did a bit of a sky walk but recovered quickly and carried on.
I bet Team New Zealand are doing lots of homework and a fair bit nail biting.
Both boats had small head sails on today but Luna Rosa seemed to have a bit more shape in the sails. Ineos seemed to not have the quality set in the sails from the views I caught and it was choppier.
Got caught out again today. Jo said, " what are you flexing your fingers for?" I caught her out of the corner of my eye waving her hands about but I was too much of a gentleman to comment.
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It looks to me like Prada may be able to point just a bit higher upwind.
I really like the graphics they're showing. That speed comparison graph was pretty cool.
So remind me as I forget - In the overhead tracking shots, what do the little graphic interval circles behind the boat's track represent? Are those ten meter marks or something?
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Prada Cup racing scheduled for Wednesday has been cancelled.
Auckland goes into Covid19 lockdown level three as from midnight tonight. The rest of the country goes to level 2. Three days to start with.
We have to wait and see how the latest community outbreak, as small it is, develops.
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Controversy is always a part of the America's Cup!.... I have read the articles released today, and it appears that the organizing committee (ACE) are proposing that IF Auckland doesn't return to a Level 1 alert in time for the next race, scheduled for Thursday (Wednesday in NZ), that the racing be postponed a week, and to allow the scheduled gap between the Prada Cup and the America's Cup, that it also be postponed a week.... Of course there is no guarantee that a week is enough!....
The Challenger of Record (who just happens to be Luna Rossa Prada Pirelli) is opposed to any postponement.... They state this possibility was addressed in the rules, and that racing would continue as scheduled, but without the public present (like Formula 1 does).... If this does not occur, then the rules further state that at the end of scheduled racing for the Prada Cup Finals (Feb. 24), if the series is not complete, the points leader on that date will be declared the winner, and the Challenger for the America's Cup.... That, of course, is currently Prada.... ::)
While this seems on the one hand unfair, particularly to the public who have travelled to watch, it is a better outcome for TV broadcasts already scheduled, and appears to have been addressed months ago in the rules.... but I'll bet the Brits aren't very thrilled that the series may be decided by COVID.... :(
Any bets that if racing continues that INEOS will come out of the gate fighting mad?.... :o
Bob
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Thanks again for the update. It's late tonight, so I'll contemplate on my opinion, but right off the top of my head, it seems to me that NZ is playing the Covid game, and I am all for continued racing. Screw the attendance of the off shore fans. They can watch it on TV as we do.
On the other hand, of course Prada does not want a week postponement as that would allow Ineos that much more time to study/test/tweak their boat.
INEOS deserves the chance to come back.
Formula 1 got it right this last season. I am so sick and tired of Hamilton. I hope Vettel finds a ride.
:D
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Off sailing for a few days. It is better doing it than watching it. I will miss the TV broadcaste of the Americas cup but will get the results on national radio. Will have to catch up on the utube later. Maybe a mega yacht will invite me aboard to watch their TV if they even notice me.
Anyway good luck to all. Ineos - Luna Rossa.
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Off sailing for a few days. It is better doing it than watching it. I will miss the TV broadcaste of the Americas cup but will get the results on national radio. Will have to catch up on the utube later. Maybe a mega yacht will invite me aboard to watch their TV if they even notice me.
Anyway good luck to all. Ineos - Luna Rossa.
Very nice sentiments Hugh.
And nice to hear from the Southern Hemisphere. I wish I could roast on a beach right now.
As well, good luck to all in the Cup Race - Ineos/Prada.
I just enjoy honest and energetic sailing, not that we have not already seen it!
:D
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Racing resumes at 4 PM on Saturday (NZT), which is 7 PM, Sunday, PST.... 2 races per day until one boat wins 7.... Limited spectator opportunities as Auckland is still on Level 2 alert....
Bob
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Racing resumes at 4 PM on Saturday (NZT), which is 7 PM, Sunday, PST.... 2 races per day until one boat wins 7.... Limited spectator opportunities as Auckland is still on Level 2 alert....
Bob
Thank you!
:D
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-.-- --- ..- / .- .-. . / .-- . .-.. -.-. --- -- . / -.-.--
-... --- -...
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-.-- --- ..- / .- .-. . / --- -. .-.. -.-- / - .... . / - .... .. .-. -.. / .--. . .-. ... --- -. / - --- / ..-. .. --. ..- .-. . / --- ..- - / -- -.-- / -- . ... ... .- --. . .-.-.-
:D
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Morse code perhaps ?
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For those who don't know Morse Code, you can cheat.... https://morsedecoder.com/
Bob
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Next race starts in 10 min.... https://www.americascup.com/en/live (https://www.americascup.com/en/live)
Bob
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So Ineos got a win today.
Wonderful!!
But please explain how they have any chance at getting into the actual America's Cup.
:D
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Would need a heck of a comeback.... :o .... They have to win 6 of the next 7 races.... However, stranger things have happened.... The wind is supposed to pick up in the next few days, and anything can happen.... However, with Luna Rossa only needing 2 more wins, they look like a pretty safe bet, right now....
One thing that has always bugged me about the America's Cup.... VERY often the Challenger series is sailed in different wind conditions to the Cup series.... This means that the boat the becomes the final Challenger is not necessarily the best boat to take on the Defender.... :(
Bob
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Just remember NewZealand got trounced by Jimmy Spittal. Really trounced.
News here is that Te Rehutai has altered sail shape. Hailed as genius and reported to be super duper..
Weather here has been very sunny. Need to take precautions against severe sun burn. Have to dive off the boat to cool down.
We have much improved cell coverage now.
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I didn't know taking a dip with your phone would improve reception.... ::)
Bob
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Done and dusted.... the Brits are going home.... Prada Pirelli goes on to face the Kiwis.... 8)
Bob
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Bad News.
Auckland goes into level three lockdown for covid 19 at 0600 hrs this morning. The rest of the country goes to level two. All because of the stupid behaviour of one person in the area of Papatoetoe. The lock down is set for seven days and then will be reassessed. Who knows if they will get the potential outbreak contained by then so it may be extended.
America's Cup racing will not start on Saturday. A major Auckland running event has been cancelled and Horse of the Year show that starts next Saturday could be cancelled.
Haven't heard about the WWII planes, and others, airshow that continues today will be curtailed but likely.
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Prada and team New Zealand have been able to carry on training during the latest covid lock down but they keep apart but they did get close.
I have just seen a video clip of an unofficial drag race between both boats. It is difficult to tell because of the angle of the camera and she was the close boat but it looked as if Prada was going faster.
Should we be worried? You bet we should be.
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Now we have a tsunami on the way. Low lying east coast of north island evacuated to high ground. Sea is broiling up at Opotiki. It is on its way. Auckland is likely to get strange tidal surges as is most of the country. No training today I bet. We will see what the day brings but does not look too good.
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A tidal surge could bring the boundaries right up to one's beach patio. Nice for viewing, bad for sailing.
Thanks again for the updates!!
:D
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Tsunami has now been downgraded to coastal disturbance. Looks like we dodged that one and all the damage it would cause.
We did have coastal waters withdrawing such as happens before the big wave arrives. The disturbance was an 8.1 quake near the Kermadec Islands, about 900 kilometres north east.
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Close call. Happy to hear of the updated news.
:D
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Auckland goes to alert level two as from Sunday. America's Cup racing starts on Wednesday using only courses A and E to prevent big spectator crowds gathering. Alert level 2 allows gathering of no more than 100 people. Two races each on Wednesday and Friday and through the weekend. If there isn't a winner by Monday racing will carry on daily.
More anxiety coming up. Let's hope it is an honourable and dignified contest. No reason why it should not be.
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Tomorrow night at this time, there will be 2 races run, and a whole lot of answers revealed.... 8)
Bob
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Racing starts in just 4 hours.... The first leg of the first race will tell us a LOT.... 8)
Bob
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Thank you again for the updates. Much appreciated.
TV scheduling for the A/C here in the US is non-existent.
I guess I'll have to resort to U-tube to see any action.
If you have a better link for watching the most recent races, that would be appreciated as well.
Go KIWI's!!
:D
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This is where I watch the racing live.... Our internet is about 3 MBps, and it hardly ever spools for a few seconds, 99% live or better....
https://www.americascup.com/en/live (https://www.americascup.com/en/live)
I goes live at 7 PM Pacific time.... 8)
Bob
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Thanks Bob, but that link goes to a site where they're asking me to subscribe for $130.
I have access to Comcast, and the NBCSports network channel, but it is never accurate pertaining to the A/C.
???
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I haven't paid a penny, it's free on the internet, has been all along.... Here is a screenshot of what I see....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo221/rsterne/Capture.PNG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/p/b81ac13b-f0c2-412d-a9a0-bda9519128ef)
I get there using this trail of links....
https://www.americascup.com/ (https://www.americascup.com/)
Scroll down and click on "How to Watch"....
https://www.americascup.com/how-to-watch (https://www.americascup.com/how-to-watch)
Scroll down to "Watch On Online" and click the "Watch Now" button, it takes you to the link I posted in the last post....
https://www.americascup.com/en/live (https://www.americascup.com/en/live)
The clock in the lower left is now counting down from 56:19.... When you mouse over the page, it brings up you choice of several cameras, including a "Virtual Eye".... but they aren't active until the clock hits "zero"....
Bob
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First race to the Kiwi's.... but not a runaway.... 8)
Bob
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Thank you guys for the heads up info.
I'm actually able to watch it right now and prep for recording.
I'll ignore the spoiler ;)
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Should Team New Zealand be worried? Yes they should. I am anxious
This could be a drawn out contest. Maybe both boats are just probing each other at the moment and have more show. Not likely but Luna Rossa seemed to operate very smoothly just sitting on top of Te Rehutai all the way in the second race. Both boats are pretty good performers but win the start and control the race. Well done Luna Rossa.
Tomorrow we go again. Woops, Friday we go again.
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So far, that has been the story of every race I have watched.... win the start and don't make any mistakes and you're A-OK.... Unless you don't cover and there is a wind shift, there is no reason to lose a match race to a boat of similar speed, once you get out of the gate in front.... and it actually takes quite a speed advantage to pass if the boat ahead sails well....
I used to love match racing, won quite a few in R/C Yachts just by sailing smart.... ;)
Bob
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Question:
In the overhead helicopter shots, what do the sequenced colored circles represent in the path of the boats? Are those ten meter distances or something?
I used to know this stuff.
???
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I think they are about 1 second of travel?.... SPOILER ALERT !!!!
Well, it's all tied up at 2 races apiece.... One small error from the Italians when their Port board didn't go down all the way on a gybe approaching the 2nd mark.... They had to come up onto a reach to keep the hull out of the water and barely made the bottom gate.... The series is now a best 5 out of 9.... 8)
Bob
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Thanks.
And yes, I just saw it live, so there was no spoiler this time.
I still say that in the first race, it appeared that Luna was pointing higher upwind. But that second race was brilliant, especially the way the Kiwi's forced Luna at the start.
Now, I don't remember my rules these days, but if both boats are on starboard, does the leward boat have the right of way? That's how the Kiwi's positioned themselves at that start.
:D
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What a classic race for Luna Rossa in the first race. Well done. They do have Jimmy Spittal on board. Then a completely different race from Peter Burling. Burling has never lost a yachting contest -----yet. That reputation is not going to be enough this time.
And so the anxiety continues tomorrow. Oh for some wind, say 20 knots but not tomorrow I think.
41 knots boat speed in 9. something knots of wind, maybe a bit of a gust . Amazing. I will have to study the vectors to get my head around that.
True windspeed was low all day.
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if both boats are on starboard, does the leward boat have the right of way?
Correct, provide they are not behind "mast abeam" and sailing above their "proper course".... The second caveat is hard to prove with these boats, as they have such a wide combination of possible course/velocity combinations that they "can" sail, it's just that some are faster than others.... Add in coming up to start, and the interpretation gets even trickier, I would think.... Did you see the diamond shaped "box" that the officials can superimpose on the video from above which gives the "safe space" for each yacht?.... It is large enough to enclose the bowsprit and foils, plus a bit extra for safety.... If the outside of the "boxes" touch, somebody is likely to get a penalty.... That luff at the start of Race 2 had the "boxes" within a meter of each other.... :o
Bob
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I did see the diamond shape superimposed on the Race 2 start. That was very close, but apparently still legal.
I so miss the days of Dennis Conner back in the '80's, when if they didn't actually HIT each other, all was good, except for ruled fouls. That was some great match racing back then.
Kinda hard to interpret the tactics these days. At such higher speeds, I really can't imagine that there could be any significant wind blocking from the boat ahead, although they did mention that last night. They are just not sailing that close to each other these days, at least not like before. The commentators mention forcing the other boat to one side of the course or another, but at separation distances like 100 meters or more, there is plenty of room to maneuver to the better side.
It seems as though whoever has the lead at the start has the win. Perhaps it's just the consistency of the wind in that area. I'm sure there are puffs (witness the Americans capsize), but drastic wind direction changes do not seem so prevalent on this course.
I wish the commentary would show wind direction changes instead of individual crew heartbeats, breathing rate and body temps. I mean, WGAF?
???
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Post race #5.
Kiwi's totally messed up their start, and once again, whoever has the lead at the start is going to win the race.
I did notice that the TV coverage is tossing in wind direction arrows, but not like the old days of ESPN. You really have to watch the race almost second by second to pick up on it.
Still rooting for the Kiwi's!
And did you guys notice that there's like three of us who even give a krap about this?
:D
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Wow!
Race six was amazing.
What was the difference?.
Inside the box, the Kiwi's made an excellent jibe move and turned it into a nice reach on top of Luna at the start to gain the advantage at the start line, and then what?? They just took off like a rocket.
:D
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The Kiwi's sailed a great Race 6, their start was perfect, while Luna Rossa was waayyyyyy late.... ::) .... I don't understand what happened after that.... Did the Italians give up about halfway through?.... The wind was the same light stuff as the last 3 races, but the final margin of nearly 1.5 km. was just sad for them....
Anyone remember when they sailed those 12 Metre dinosaurs for Ye Auld Mug?.... It was always best 4 out of 7.... Guess what.... 8) :o ::)
I'd like to see a couple of races in 20+ knots, to see the other end of the spectrum.... What's the call for tomorrow, more light weather?....
BTW, I once knew a "Grand Dame" of the NYYC, by the name of "Sis" Hovey.... She had forgotten more about yacht racing than most of us will ever understand, I always enjoyed talking to her.... In the 1930's she owned a Herreshoff designed 30 Square Meter called "Oriole II"....
https://yotlot.com/a-1930-herreshoff-thirty-square-metre/
For one of her landmark birthdays (90th?) her husband rented a cruise on the "J" Boat Enterprise.... She told me that the steel mast had a hatch in the side for access to an internal ladder to go aloft to work on the rigging.... :o .... When she and her family showed up at a sailing event they used to say "here comes the covey of Hovey's".... ;D
Bob
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Yes only three of us. Most of the world doesn't even know where new Zealand is.
I am a bit perturbed by the grand lead that NZ had in the second race. Sure they won the start but not by about 1500 metres. My son says that Te Rehutai was giving them, Luna Rossa, dirty air. My yacht racing experience doesn't show that turbulence lasts at the separation distances those yachts were showing. Maybe big sails in light air are different.
Anyway my son says he should be on Te Rehutai instead of Josh Junior. You see Josh was at the Worser Bay Yacht club one day and borrowed a Zephyr (11ft. 4 ins cat rigged monohull. Beautiful boat but not easy to sail well. James won the race beating Josh. He says Josh has never beaten him so he should have his job on Te Rehutai.
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Another light weather day for Waitemata Harbour. Variable 5 to 10 knot sea breezes this afternoon. Light again on Monday. Looks like the low south east of nz will move away without giving us breeze.
This is New Zealand, we are in the roaring 40s. Wind is our signature. We need wind to solve this tit for tat contest.
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Bumped into two Italian people while out walking the dog late yesterday. He was wearing a soccer T shirt but we chatted about the cup. They were pretty cagey but we agreed to be friends no matter what the result.
There is a little car, A Micra I think, running around our small suburb flying two Italian flags. Good on them. It is good to spot it now and again.
A lot of people here are not taking much notice of the cup but not so in our family and the yachting community.
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Forecaste for Waitemata Harbour up to and including Thursday. Variable 5 knots and up to 10 knots.
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How long will they delay racing if that is true?.... Any talk of shortening the Match?.... I sure hope not.... ::)
Bob
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No talk of shortening the contest. The word is that it will go as long as it needs to. Some are saying better wind today but the Metservice forecaste doesn't confirm that. There is a front on the way coming from the west but won't be here very soon. There is a change in the weather coming. Cloudy and breezy down here in Wellington.
They do have the option of other courses now that the covid restriction is lifted and they may get some wind further out. The Waitemata is a sheltered area especially where they have been sailing. This afternoon will tell.
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The "Morning Briefing" posted online says they are expecting 11-15 knots this afternoon.... Let's hope so!!!!
We just changed to Daylight Time here in BC, so the races are an hour later for us.... the first race is now at 8:12 PM.... ::)
Bob
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Forecaste for Waitemata Harbour up to and including Thursday. Variable 5 knots and up to 10 knots.
If they have deep snow foils, and want 25mph winds, they can come to Denver, Colorado, LOL.
I'll be watching again tonight.
Thanks again for the updates.
:D
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WOW!
Spoiler alert for Race #7 - Don't read further if you haven't seen it!!
I got caught off guard watching the start and the first leg (I was busy posting elsewhere here in GTA) but it's nice to finally see some true closer match racing, and finally a change of lead within a race.
Let's see what a jib change will produce for Race #8.
I LOVE this stuff!!
:D
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Race #8
Wow, again.
And then WOW, AGAIN!!
Within one race!! This one is worthy of some analysis.
What a race!!
Thanks for sharing with you guys!! We few band of Three Brothers!!
:D
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WOW, just WOW!.... Spoiler alert if you haven't seen Race #8....
Race #7 was a great race.... but who would have thought that Race #8 would prove that light air sailing could be exciting.... From over 4 minutes behind at 2 marks to winning by almost 4 minutes in a shortened race, with both boats falling off their foils.... I won't tell you which way it went.... but you're in for some exciting stuff.... :o 8) ::)
Bob
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We think too much alike.... ;)
Bob
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We think too much alike.... ;)
Bob
I see no problem with that. (Yoouse gotta problem wid dat?).
That Race 8 was just way too cool (or not). Bit of a nail biter, for either team supporter.
I wished for '80's style racing. I guess it's back, at least to some degree.
People make mistakes, and technology still cannot make up for it. I can't believe that NZ jibed over instead of just shifting up a few degrees and staying on the same tack, but then again, they don't pay me for my opinion, and I'm not on the boat.
Funky winds do not help either.
All the same, today was great fun to watch.
Happy that you guys are there to share this with.
:D
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A pleasing result for Team New Zealand but it is not over yet. Jimmy Spittal is a crack helmsman and he has a slick team on Luna Rossa. Oh for 20knots plus of breeze. I just want to see if Ben Ainslie was right in his prediction that these monohulls could get to 60 knots. That would be something if not unsafe.
I don't know if you can hear it on the USA/ Canada video feed but Te Rehutai makes quite a loud buzzing noise as she sails. I think Luna Rossa does it as well. It is different from the noise of sheets groaning as they are clutched on winches. These boats probably do not have that system. They seem to have a traveller that does the trimming and a sheet that is really a boom or clew down haul. James thinks it is a hydraulic relief valve working. I think he is right.
I saw at the end of the second race one of the NZ crew with his head down. Not between his knees but hung low. One of the other blokes gave him a pat on the helmet. I thought the chap was either weeping or exhausted from grinding or just plain relieved.
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I have my own opinion for the reason the boats are falling off the foils.... I think in light winds they are retracting the (previously loaded) now windward foil too soon.... before the boat is back up to speed after a tack or gybe.... The Kiwi boat didn't touch down until they lifted the windward foil after the gybe.... The lift a foil (wing) creates is proportional to the area times the square of the speed through the water.... The drag of having two foils in the water is MUCH less than having the hull touch down.... For light conditions, drop the new foil, complete the maneuver, get the boat back up to speed, and THEN withdraw the unneeded foil....
Don't tell me this can't be done, Luna Rossa does it frequently when rounding the Leeward mark.... ever since they had the leeward foil stall and the boat skid many yards sideways during one of the races against the Yanks.... They learned that lesson from just making that mistake ONCE.... I think both teams have gotten so used to pulling the windward foil up immediately after a maneuver, when they are blasting along at 30 knots.... Do it at 15 knots, and you only have a quarter of the force to lift (or keep) the boat out of the water.... With both foils down, you only lose half the lift at 15 knots (compared to 30) and in all probability you stay foilborne.... JMO.... ::)
Bob
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This is too weird Bob.
I was thinking EXACTLY the same thing this morning while in the shower (it's where I do my best thinking).
Why are they not keeping both foils in the water until during a tack or jibe UNTIL they have established foiling speed, especially in lighter winds?
At the top of leg three, where Luna dropped into the water, they did lift their port wing way too early I think. The hull was already touching when they lifted that port foil. Wetted area, as we all know, is not a good thing.
It also appeared to me that NZ, upon approaching Gate 3, was on more of a reach (over-standing the mark) in order to stay foiling. Or maybe it's just me, or a luckier fluke in the wind in favor of NZ.
That's sailing for ya!!
I do wish they would have completed all six legs, but perhaps the Committee wanted to stop the pain and bleeding.
As for the buzzing sound, I haven't quite picked up on that. It's over-ridden by the sound of hydraulics controlling the traveler/clew (or whatever they call it these days on an AC75).
:D
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There is a 45 min. maximum time limit for each race!.... I don't know if you heard it, but when Luna Rossa had just got back up on its foils, the race committee warned them there was only 7 minutes remaining....and they had nearly 2 legs yet to go....
Bob
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I did miss that part.
Thanks for the info.
:D
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I'm obviously still learning about this foiling system, but do they actually angle the "outboard" foil a bit upward in a turn, sort of like pushing your hand against a wall to push yourself off in another direction?
I know that's a bad description, so let's call it the leward foil, or the one carrying the load on the turn.
???
The TV coverage is finally starting to show some great graphics in the form of wing wash!!
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Yeah, it's about time the TV coverage started showing the wing wash.... 8) Yes, they have "flaps" on the foils so they can control the amount of lift.... In addition they can cant the rudder stock fore and aft, to control the attitude of the boat and also the angle of attack of the main foils.... bow high, more lift....
I'm going to assume you are watching live, but spoiler alert if you're not....
Spithill lost that race by not covering on the last weather leg.... The Kiwi's sailed great, but that mistake cost the Italians dearly, and they are now down by 3.... ::)
God I love Match racing.... 8)
Bob
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Yeah, I'm watching live right now. I'll be late for work tomorrow, LOL.
I wondered about the bow attitude. I was wondering why they didn't place the foils more forward to allow a higher angle of attack, but now that you've told me that, they can adjust that.
I'm an amateur aerodynamic engineer BTW. I also fly R/C sail planes, but underwater hydraulics are the same thing, right? It's all Fluid.
I did not know that they had flaps on the sail. So many new things.
Are they still controlling the tension of the mast stays? They must be, in order to control the luft?
Thanks for the info. I love this stuff!!
:D
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They can bend the mast more to flatten the sail, or less to power it up.... No flaps on the sail, that's on the main foils.... It's the silver part on the back of the Luna Rossa foils, the trailing edge can move up and down to change the camber of the foil, and therefore the amount of lift.... They add camber to get the boat out of the water, then trim out the curvature to get rid of drag at higher speeds.... The main foils are placed pretty much at the CG of the yacht, and do 80-90% of the lifting, with the rest done by the foil on the bottom of the rudder....
I have designed and built a lot of my own R/C sailplanes as well.... so we have quite a lot in common.... 8)
Bob
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Race 10 Abandoned, see you back here tomorrow.... ;)
Bob
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Very cool info. Thanks.
Do these AC75 yachts actually carry spare (or alternative) sails onboard like in the old days. I can't imagine that they would even attempt a sail change these days. it's not like they can do a pit stop as in F1.
BTW, F1 racing starts this year in Bahrain, NOT Australia.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.f1-schedule-2021-bahrain-to-host-season-opener-as-australia-moves-later.4GpFlW2pc8sK9snFaVSHYg.html (https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.f1-schedule-2021-bahrain-to-host-season-opener-as-australia-moves-later.4GpFlW2pc8sK9snFaVSHYg.html)
GO VETTEL!! He found a ride!!
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.f1-schedule-2021-bahrain-to-host-season-opener-as-australia-moves-later.4GpFlW2pc8sK9snFaVSHYg.html (https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.f1-schedule-2021-bahrain-to-host-season-opener-as-australia-moves-later.4GpFlW2pc8sK9snFaVSHYg.html)
So they abandoned racing for the rest of the day.
Guess that means I'll have to be to work on time tomorrow.
Or perhaps not.
:D
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Testing was last weekend at Bahrain, instead of in Spain.... Verstappen was fastest, not that means much in the pre-season.... I'm hoping for a good F1 season this year....
You didn't happen to race cars, too, did you?....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/.highres/Three Mogs Avatar_zpsxkznnjg2.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/p/89287f3e-097c-4e6f-8726-bc22bf252c18)
That's me at Westwood in 1973.... It was cropped out of this photo....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/.highres/3MOGS.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/p/95b79494-2e44-422f-96ec-9680216f055d)
Sure was a LOT of fun.... 8)
Bob
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That's Classic. Is that a Morgan?
I'll send you a PM about my non-existent car racing history.
I had much more fun sailing however.
:D
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Classic cars. Once upon a time a nearly bought an MG Hornet. 1937 model if I remember correctly. I didn't because I had extreme difficulty getting into it and when I shoehorned in there was not enough room to work the pedals.
What you are saying about falling off the foils makes sense but I would have thought they would have the drill all sorted out by now. With light winds on the Waitemata there are holes in the wind, just dead patches with no wind, the same happens here even in Cook Strait. Lose the wind, lose the power, no lift and splash. Then you have to wait for the wind to come before you can get going again.
The contest is not over and beware of Jimmy Spittal. He is very very good. Today I wonder if Burling had a plan to force Luna Rossa into a light patch or it just happened that way at that time.
Pressure on the opposition. Burling has never lost a contest but there is always a first time.
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Yep, a 1972 Morgan 4/4 1600 GT....
bob
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Southerly 10 knots easing to variable 5 late morning then northeast 10 for a time late afternoon. So another calm day on the Waitemata but there could be some local breeze.
The next day is a bit better.
Speculation: No start today.
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I'd like to see at least one race with 20 knots....
Bob
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DONE....
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AND....
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DUSTED....
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Congratulations to the Kiwis.... 8)
Bob
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Well the anxiety is over. Did you see the bloke on the spectator boat with red socks. We had two women from Auckland watching with us and they went and put their Peter Blake red socks on just before the start. Must have worked. Peter Burling got it together and showed he is a great skipper.
Well done Team New Zealand and well done Luna Rossa. You kept Burling up to the mark.
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I hope they keep the same boat rules for the next challenge.... A return to keel boats would be boring, now.... ::)
Bob
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During the running of the America's Cup I have been very busy, too busy for an old bloke but I made time to watch every race. It is slowly sinking in what a magnificent event that was. Two of the best helmsmen, maybe the best, in the world clashing in the two most advanced sailing vessels in the world.
There is no word on the challenger of record as yet but it has to be Italy because they are well down the track of development. These boats I venture to say have more to give their crews. Speed and safety might be a major point for AC37 because they will top 60 knots. Of that I feel sure. Grant Dalton has said that the boats will be AC75s. They whoever they are have mooted a rule that the boats may be sailed only by sailers from country of origin. There are pros and cons with that but at least it will prevent what happens with the international rugby teams employing highly paid gladiators.
Lets keep the AC37 as sport. Clean good fun sport. The technical spin offs belong to the teams.
For our little forum I note that only three of us were intrigued by this world class event that has so much history of American competition involved in it. I merely note it and certainly don't decry Americans or anyone else that have other interests.
Kapai Te Rehutai. Kapai Luna Rossa. (Luna Rossa second but not losers.