GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Motorhead on January 12, 2021, 07:13:13 PM
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First off not my idea, but taken from a few recent posts about low velocity slugs that mushroom easily. Thank you guys !!
So ... taking a #2 Phillips screw driver tip then dressing each blade web with a dremel tool cut-off wheel, we get each web a tad thinner / sharper.
* Took me 3 tries getting my grinding technique right & having control over equal thinning where it would contact the slugs hollow point making a uniform impression.
Placing a NSA slug on a piece of flat and thick leather, gave three TAP TAP TAP's on the end of driver tip with a small tac hammer so the hollow cavity of slug took on this look.
Once establishing how hard to strike was able to go threw a 375 count of NSA 20.2's in @ 45 minuets. Neurotic YES !!!
AS TO TESTING .... O' yes they now POP open where before was not that impressed :P
Shot from @ 20 yards into 1 gallon jug of water at @ 1040 fps a stock 20.2 HP passed right threw the jug exiting leaving a round hole ... had tried this prior with a few bottles in line to catch the slug. In the past recovered slug was only slightly opened at HP cavity and in no was mushrooming :P
MODIFIED with an X from tool described and shown, slug enters jug and does this !!! POP peeling away to the depth of the HP cavity in a near perfect clover leaf shape. Started as a .22 caliber and opened up to a .380" clover having no measurable weight loss still weighing 20.2 grains.
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Excellent! I love home experimentation just like that. Well done!
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how did effect accuracy?
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Awesome idea and relatively quick once one gets the hang of TAP-TAP-TAPPING it.👍🏼
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Accuracy unchanged. symmetry is important and you want to keep the disruption of the meplat to a minimum
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Awesome work Scott! Boy, that slug opened up perfectly and symmetrically...ouch, that would hurt! I bet you can’t wait to try those out on some ground squirrels! Will have to try that. Thank you for sharing 👍.
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Great! Now I have another project seeking perfection. ;D Looks fantastic. Thanks!
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Just did @ 100 JSA .177 @ 12.5 grains using a "0" size jewelers Phillips tip.
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I'll be interested to see what those open up to Scott.
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That is what we used to do with our .38 specials...
Dumb Dumb bullets..
Devastating on high desert jackrabbits..
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I'll be interested to see what those open up to Scott.
Well here is that anwser ...
12.5 grain at 20 yards into a jug of water ( @ 1020 fps )
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Pretty interesting s Scott, Love-it! Simple, fast, inexpensive! What could you ask more of! But you know me, I just had to ask, so----
Pretty much were I started from. I will share tonight, or tomorrow how I get them to open at 400+ fps. ;) And very explosive at higher fps form a pcp long gun.
It is so simple that it is going to be a letdown. But doable, just has one more step in the name of long range accuracy. ;D
Bonus, I will include a simple way to get perfect mushroom and not have explosive expansion in high fps slugs as well. 8)
Well, maybe. For what ever reason, the ms card for my old Sony won't let me delete any pic's and it is full! GRRRRR!!
I'll put what I can over here--- Feel free to post there as well. We need to help folks out as much as we can.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=182487.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=182487.0)
Mike
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When I came up with that, about a year ago, I called NSA, and chatted with them about it. They had actually tried things like that, but had production problems with it. I can see that. I had some problems with the punch bit sticking in the cavity. I've experimented with different pellet modifications for about 50 years. Some work, some don't.
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If you have a drill press you can make a jig to hold the slug and use the drill press for an arbor press. For those who have a hard time being consistant with a hammer.
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Just did @ 100 JSA .177 @ 12.5 grains using a "0" size jewelers Phillips tip.
Anything shot with those will be screwed :)
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Gripping the sharpened Philips bit in a drill press chuck and setting the limit stop would seem more to enable a more repeatable hollow point wall thinning, than tapping the bit with a hammer.
Imagine the die or mold HP core pin having that shape already. Calling Nick...
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Ok thats awesome!!
Wonder how hard it would be to make some parts for a reloading press. Be easy to pump out modified ammo. Have a cup base to hold the slug, and a modified dye to be pushed into the slug. With the dye you would be able to accurately control the depth of the splits, instead if the " tap tap tap" method.
I do have a dye set that I use to modify .22lr shells and it works great. Wonder if I can find a tip to use in that.
Hmmmmm
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Just did @ 100 JSA .177 @ 12.5 grains using a "0" size jewelers Phillips tip.
Anything shot with those will be screwed :)
I see what ya did there ... clever ;)
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If you have a drill press you can make a jig to hold the slug and use the drill press for an arbor press. For those who have a hard time being consistant with a hammer.
LIGHT hammer .. I'm using this:
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/200821409491-0-1/s-l1000.jpg)
Weight just 4 ounces and can be purchased threw E-bay https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=Awr9LtbsKf9fRYwALZuWnIlQ;_ylu=c2VjA2ZwLWF0dHJpYgRzbGsDcnVybA--/RV=2/RE=1610586732/RO=11/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.ebay.com%2fitm%2fJEWELERS-HAMMER-BRASS-AND-NYLON-HEAD-MALLET-METALSMITH-JEWELRY-MAKING-5-8-FACE-%2f200821409491/RK=2/RS=qJbP16un14LwCtVNbIpjRCFj_ow- (https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=Awr9LtbsKf9fRYwALZuWnIlQ;_ylu=c2VjA2ZwLWF0dHJpYgRzbGsDcnVybA--/RV=2/RE=1610586732/RO=11/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.ebay.com%2fitm%2fJEWELERS-HAMMER-BRASS-AND-NYLON-HEAD-MALLET-METALSMITH-JEWELRY-MAKING-5-8-FACE-%2f200821409491/RK=2/RS=qJbP16un14LwCtVNbIpjRCFj_ow-)
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Funny, I have that same hammer.
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More testing ...
Using the "0" size jewelers phillips it has thinner edges already and far more symmetrical than a reground #2 tip and self centers far better as well.
Same Tap tap tap with the light hammer has the X being IMO very consistent with some practice.
Todays test was using the .22 cal NSA in the 24.8 grain weight which has a known deeper HP pocket. still keeping the X inside the meplat.
Test again into a water jug @ 20 yards shot at @ 940fps. Unmodified slug passed right threw the jug >:( modified opened up to .460" being over DOUBLE the caliber diameter ... Wowzer ;D
Scott S
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Scott,
Haven't posted over here on GTA in quite a while, but stumbled across this thread.
Just a suggestion for consistency, if you can get that size Phillip's bit in a long enough shank, you could turn it to the size of a de-capping pin and use it in a die on a reloading press. That way you can control the depth using the die. You can make a simple shell holder to center the slug.
It might be more than you want to mess with, but I figured I would throw it out there.
Regards
Mark
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Interesting guess I be spending some time in the garage this weekend.
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Thanks for posting this information Scott.
Last night I decided to give it a go and used a #2 bit and gave it a sharp edge and that worked well. That was before I saw your post about the #0 Jeweler bit. The real trick for consistency is definitely the #0 jeweler Philip bit. The #0 only takes two taps and it is done, while the #2 took 3 taps and more finesse. I did about 20 this AM with the jeweler bit and a piece of cardboard as the mat, took 35 seconds max. These now remind me of the H&N Baracuda Hunter Extreme.
This is not extensive testing, just shot a 10 shot group with normal NSA and then 10 shot with the cross tip. I'm using the NSA 17.5 .2165 @970 fps (I think, somewhere in that range) and could see no difference in group size @30 yards. I have not stretched it out to past 50 yet, still see no reason why it would change.
Have not tested for expansion, really don't see the need as your results show quite clearly how effective the mod is.
To me this is fantastic as I really like the NSA due to cost, consistency and accuracy, yet never cared for the lack of expansion in .22 in feathers, at least for me that is. People have talked about game changers, and for me, this is one heck of a game changer.
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I’m having some fun with this. The bit I’m using is a 1/8th Philips bit, is that a # 0, no idea? I started thinking if a cross stamp is good, what about two and getting more of a star pattern? For giggles, I made some up, it took a couple of slugs before I started getting it right as you can see from the picture. Do they shoot as accurate as the single cross stamp? I don’t know, yet. It does look like the nose of the slug is more likely to get out of round, so perhaps accuracy is affected. Really thinking to use at closer ranges anyway, they might open faster on smaller less dense targets. That is the thought process behind it anyway. The other down side is that the petals will most likely separate/shear at higher fps, not a good thing, unless the immediate goal is for fast expansion.
The real reason for doing this is because once I got started, just couldn’t stop. :o The picture shows, the single stamped cross and the and also the double stamped slugs and as already mentioned you will see my learning curve. Included in the pic is the Philips bit I’m using. The end results to the slug hp seems to look like what Scott is getting, yet, uncertain.
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Your tool states PH1 which is the #1 size tip.
They look good
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Thanks for the clarification Scott. Looking on the interwebs, PH3: 0.141 inches, PH2: 0.086 inches, PH1: 0.071 inches, PH0: 0.055 inches, PH00: 0.048 inches. My little screwdriver set included two PH00 bits and apparently none of the PH0.
The PH1 is slightly bigger, wonder what that will do regarding petal expansion, will they tear easier? The expansion you are getting with the smaller bit is amazing and the petals are staying intact. I don't typically have plastic milk jugs or pop bottles around to test with. I'll have to keep my eye out for some test targets so I can answer that question.
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Some really cool stuff; you can't beat a simple and available method that works. Got lot's of small Phillips driver bits that I don't use; I think I know what to do with them now. :D
Thanks Motorhead; and Knifemaker for sparking the idea,
Jesse
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Bob's ballistic soap, might show some interesting results for expansion......... ;)
And if you have the video capability's, it would really show the temp cavity being created,
during the impact phase etc.
Then we have a big block of modeling clay, using a thin fishing line for cutting the block lengthways,
would be a permeant record, until reuse....
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Here are my results using a few taps on a #1 phillips. That's an unfired slug on the right. The next one is fired but not modified. All shots were into a 1/2 gallon jug of water at 20 yards.
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Better results using a 1 gallon jug of water.
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Don't understand the 6 petals peeling .... phillips tip should create just 4 ???
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Don't understand the 6 petals peeling .... phillips tip should create just 4 ???
This might explain it. What I assumed was a #1phillips really wasn't.
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Here's another one I did with the same bit that only has 4 petals. It was shot into a 20 oz water bottle. Maybe I sunk the bit a little deeper on the other one?
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PZ tips are POZI-DRIVE and while looking like a phillips is different in drive web shape and angle. Still may work ... but does tell why the odd petal peel away count ???
yea the newest slug shown with a "phillips" makes 4 somewhat symmetrical petals for sure !
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PZ tips are POZI-DRIVE and while looking like a phillips is different in drive web shape and angle. Still may work ... but does tell why the odd petal peel away count ???
yea the newest slug shown with a "phillips" makes 4 somewhat symmetrical petals for sure !
I must say that you have really inspired me. I've always been one to chase expansion at subsonic velocities in my cast bullets, and that translates well to airguns. Here's a new one I'm playing with. That bit came from a cheap set of countersinks I bought off Amazon.
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After seeing the expansions in the "optimistic ballistic medium" that water* presents.... —
I would really really like to see if the modded slugs expand in a "realistic ballistic medium" — a quarry, a thawed chicken, or ballistic gel (10%)..... 😄
Cheering you on! 👍🏼👍🏼
Matthias
*Water is extremely hard when hit at high velocity (ever made a belly flop...?) — which makes for perfect HP expansion. And water fills out the hollow point cup perfectly, thus exerting perfect force to expand the cup.
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Play-doh was the best I could do tonight. 25 caliber 26.8 gr NSA at 750 fps. This was made with the penta shaped countersink bit.
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I was doing this with ratsniper "paul" a couple months ago to split some rats in half.
Check out ratsnipers video's with shorty's modified slugs.
We never split them in half yet. Very quick kills but no real split in half.
I could get every slug I had to expand awesomely at and under 500 fps. 4 splices are cool but six really open easily.
It's cool to see others testing this out.
My technique is different to make the hashes though but looks like the method you guys are using works just as good.
My latest testing has been on tangerines. To me, this has been the best ballistics "reality" to tiny critters.
Boy do they pop.
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I'm going to try this out tomorrow using the Griffin 17gr 177 cal slugs, we will see what happens ..
Will take a couple of coke bottles out to see the damage ;- )
wll
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I see this thread was made a sticky (thanks mods!); and that one of Knife's 2 threads is already linked-here is a link to the other thread of Knife's on hollowpoint mods so they are all here: (HP's in air Pistols?)
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=182343.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=182343.0)
Jesse
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I just realized I have an old Dremel drill-press gizmo. It's pretty worthless as a drill press (to put it mildly) but might make a really good pellet press. ;)
I'm gonna' see if I can rig a bit-holder into it, and a slug-specific self-centering clamp. If so, then I can swap various Phillips, torx, etc tips & go to town.
I can then experiment with various (consistent) punch depths.
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Have any of you gu yswho've already done this tested for short-range accuracy?
I know Motorhead said his original cut slugs had no change in accuracy, but he didn't give a target distance.
Plus, other shapes might mushroom better but not fly as true.
If these can do maybe a 1" circle at 20 yards, that would be pesting heaven.
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Nice thank you! I have some rabbits here in SLO that need some lead
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That is what we used to do with our .38 specials...
Dumb Dumb bullets..
Devastating on high desert jackrabbits..
Haha! "Dumb Dumb bullets" I like it! Since dum dum bullets were softpoints, you gotta call it something else anyway. ;D
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Great info and great results. So at close range it seems accuracy has not been affected. Has anyone done some chrono results, accuracy results, and expansion results at 50 or so yards in ballistic gel? Obviously before and after with similar test conditions ie. pressure, temp, wind.
Good stuff. I don't hunt but don't mind shooting rats at all. Those creatures deserve to be shot in my book.
Thanks for the good info!
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I'd rather just cast my own slugs but many don't want to, evidently people don't think they're accurate but I agree to disagree. I shot a chipmunk straight on with this hollowpoint BBT from the gun in my signature at about 25 yards, it entered its skull just to the right of it's left eye and settled in the hide next to it's tail. It literally flew back about 2 feet from where it was shot.
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Excellent idea but for folks with a drill press I think it can be improved. Just chuck the modified driver in the drill press and using the depth scale you can get the same deformation every time for a more uniform modification. Just a thought that popped up. Living and shooting in a suburban area I like that pellets lose velocity fast. For me its a safety feature so slugs may be a thing in the future but for now 31 grain H&N Barracudas are the closest thing to slugs I plan on shooting.
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I’m having some fun with this. The bit I’m using is a 1/8th Philips bit, is that a # 0, no idea? I started thinking if a cross stamp is good, what about two and getting more of a star pattern? For giggles, I made some up, it took a couple of slugs before I started getting it right as you can see from the picture. Do they shoot as accurate as the single cross stamp? I don’t know, yet. It does look like the nose of the slug is more likely to get out of round, so perhaps accuracy is affected. Really thinking to use at closer ranges anyway, they might open faster on smaller less dense targets. That is the thought process behind it anyway. The other down side is that the petals will most likely separate/shear at higher fps, not a good thing, unless the immediate goal is for fast expansion.
The real reason for doing this is because once I got started, just couldn’t stop. :o The picture shows, the single stamped cross and the and also the double stamped slugs and as already mentioned you will see my learning curve. Included in the pic is the Philips bit I’m using. The end results to the slug hp seems to look like what Scott is getting, yet, uncertain.
If you want more than four flutes you could get small torx driver bit. You might have to sharpen the tip a bit, think of a shallow pencil type tip. It would be easier if you use one of the extended length driver bits. If you mess it up grind it flat and have another go at it. Worst case bring it to a machine shop and they can get the exact profile you want. If you have access to a drill press chuck it up and hold a file against it and get your profile. Get a small triangle file and sharpen the leading edges of the flutes and there ya go.
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First off not my idea, but taken from a few recent posts about low velocity slugs that mushroom easily. Thank you guys !!
So ... taking a #2 Phillips screw driver tip then dressing each blade web with a dremel tool cut-off wheel, we get each web a tad thinner / sharper.
* Took me 3 tries getting my grinding technique right & having control over equal thinning where it would contact the slugs hollow point making a uniform impression.
Placing a NSA slug on a piece of flat and thick leather, gave three TAP TAP TAP's on the end of driver tip with a small tac hammer so the hollow cavity of slug took on this look.
Once establishing how hard to strike was able to go threw a 375 count of NSA 20.2's in @ 45 minuets. Neurotic YES !!!
AS TO TESTING .... O' yes they now POP open where before was not that impressed :P
Shot from @ 20 yards into 1 gallon jug of water at @ 1040 fps a stock 20.2 HP passed right threw the jug exiting leaving a round hole ... had tried this prior with a few bottles in line to catch the slug. In the past recovered slug was only slightly opened at HP cavity and in no was mushrooming :P
MODIFIED with an X from tool described and shown, slug enters jug and does this !!! POP peeling away to the depth of the HP cavity in a near perfect clover leaf shape. Started as a .22 caliber and opened up to a .380" clover having no measurable weight loss still weighing 20.2 grains.
Talk about ingenuity! Air rifle dumbdumbs. I imagine the big ores would even effectively use glaser rounds, the hollow headed slugs filled with Teflon shavings a lube. Destroy the soft tissue, leave the bone alone, no pass through.
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For the past 6 months or so been further experimenting shooting modified NSA's ( .22 in particular )
last fall got my hands on one of TROY HAMMERS ( His web name ) prototype TJ's 3 groove barrel.
With just 3 narrow LANDS the bulk of bore contact is GROOVE having as with most slug shooting in air guns, have a very small clearance slug O.D. to Bore Lands I.D. which leads to a little bit of sealing losses.
Ok ... Said, here is something found out that actually has increased the slugs speed @ 15-25 fps and also appears the ES value is running just a tad tighter.
When X scoring the H.P. cavity via hammer Tap Tap, did so on a HARD surface rather than on leather or plastic ???
RESULT is the Cup Base of the slug also slightly flattens on the outer most diameter. Measured looks to be @ .001" or so.
What we get in this case is a .217 slug with very small Flair or Bulge right at the slugs base. It loads and shoots like a .217' but barrel seals as if a .218" or so ;)
Picture of slug on side was loaded, then pushed back out from muzzle using a cleaning rod. Hard to get picture sharp enough, but you can see the shine of Groove contact right at base area.
Picture of Slug bottoms clearly shows the very slight widening of dish outer most edge.
Just sharing & your mileage may vary 8)
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Love seeing these experiments and your experiences with them. I'd love to get my hands on one of his barrels eventually.
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also noticed more energy with flat base slugs which i had attributed to it leaving more space in front of the bolt probe, that's prolly adding some pew
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Just thinking out loud here, but I wonder if any consistency could be gained using a single stage press. I'm thinking about a collet type die to hold the x bit and a modified flat top shell plate.
I see someone already mentioned something similar earlier in the thread. Should have looked over it before I posted.
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I'm having no issue hand holding and a light tap tap tap.
keep bit vertical and don't get too aggressive ... practice makes perfect :-*
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Thanks for the clarification Scott. Looking on the interwebs, PH3: 0.141 inches, PH2: 0.086 inches, PH1: 0.071 inches, PH0: 0.055 inches, PH00: 0.048 inches. My little screwdriver set included two PH00 bits and apparently none of the PH0.
The PH1 is slightly bigger, wonder what that will do regarding petal expansion, will they tear easier? The expansion you are getting with the smaller bit is amazing and the petals are staying intact. I don't typically have plastic milk jugs or pop bottles around to test with. I'll have to keep my eye out for some test targets so I can answer that question.
Just thought this up so haven't had a chance to test it. Idea: put a baloon inside another and fill it with water. Place 2 of them on the table if one isn't thick enough.