GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => German AirGun Gate => Topic started by: Duckfish on December 07, 2020, 02:23:42 PM
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I can't find it. I've got a Diana Meisterschutz on the way, and want to do it like he suggests. Can someone repost it?
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Found it
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-diana-430l-second-entry (https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-diana-430l-second-entry)
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Wow, that's a lot of cleaning. I thought you just cleaned new guns once, from the start. I have one coming today too. Same as yours. Have you or anyone else done this break-in procedure before and felt it is worth the extra time. The posts I've read of Hectors seem to be very informative and detailed. He seems to really know what he's advocating. I'll give it a try if others think it's useful as well. If it matters at all; I use goo-gone to clean.
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Wow, that's a lot of cleaning. I thought you just cleaned new guns once, from the start. I have one coming today too. Same as yours. Have you or anyone else done this break-in procedure before and felt it is worth the extra time. The posts I've read of Hectors seem to be very informative and detailed. He seems to really know what he's advocating. I'll give it a try if others think it's useful as well. If it matters at all; I use goo-gone to clean.
Mike,
Only you can tell what is good enough. Some people here brag about hitting 2 1/2 inch 'pie plates' at 25 yards. If that is good enough, disregard Hector's advice. If you want 1/2 inch groups at 30 yards the more "work" you do the better. Some people weight each pellet and then send it through a pellet sizer to make sure it is the exact head size that your barrel likes.
Some people wash and lube their pellets......
How OCD do you want to get? :-[
-Y
PS I do not warm up my gun, maybe I should??? ::)
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You only go through the break in process once. How valuable is the gun to you? How many years do you plan to keep it? Only you can decide if the reward is worth the effort.
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The way I understand it is you clean the barrel with your cleaner of choice before beginning. Although I do not see it in writing I thought the cleaning between the various shot sequences was just one dry patch. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
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I can't find it. I've got a Diana Meisterschutz on the way, and want to do it like he suggests. Can someone repost it?
Ed,
You are supposed to give it to me.
I will run about 1000 7.9 CPL through it.
It will then be broken in.
BTW...I read that garbage.
If we were shooting a powder burner with copper bullets, I might agree.
We are not.
All of the cleaning is to get the factory lubricants out of the compression chamber.
500 shots will take care of that.
We used to have a break in period for cars.
We don’t anymore.
Shoot it like you know how.
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You only go through the break in process once. How valuable is the gun to you? How many years do you plan to keep it? Only you can decide if the reward is worth the effort.
+1 I sit in my garage with my Champion pellet trap and go thru the shoot, clean, shoot, clean process. Right/wrong, good/bad it's what I've done and the results speak for themselves. I'm retired, time is what I have plenty of. ;D Kick on my Bose Wave and take my time with the 1 time tedious process. It's an investment in my future enjoyment.
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I can't find it. I've got a Diana Meisterschutz on the way, and want to do it like he suggests. Can someone repost it?
Ed,
You are supposed to give it to me.
I will run about 1000 7.9 CPL through it.
It will then be broken in.
BTW...I read that garbage.
If we were shooting a powder burner with copper bullets, I might agree.
We are not.
All of the cleaning is to get the factory lubricants out of the compression chamber.
500 shots will take care of that.
We used to have a break in period for cars.
We don’t anymore.
Shoot it like you know how.
The new Corvette C-8 has a break in period! For first 500-700 miles the engine only gives about 75% of final torque.
-Y
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I read this yesterday and the linked site. Hector is good and I really like his site. That does seem pretty extreme though. I did give the article a quick 5-10 minute scan. Maybe I need to read it again, but what is being accomplished with all this cleaning? What is being done physically to the barrel? What is being changed in the barrel?
I can not argue with success, but I do not think I will be doing anything like that. My loss? Most likely.
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I can't find it. I've got a Diana Meisterschutz on the way, and want to do it like he suggests. Can someone repost it?
Ed,
You are supposed to give it to me.
I will run about 1000 7.9 CPL through it.
It will then be broken in.
BTW...I read that garbage.
If we were shooting a powder burner with copper bullets, I might agree.
We are not.
All of the cleaning is to get the factory lubricants out of the compression chamber.
500 shots will take care of that.
We used to have a break in period for cars.
We don’t anymore.
Shoot it like you know how.
The new Corvette C-8 has a break in period! For first 500-700 miles the engine only gives about 75% of final torque.
-Y
You are correct.
That is why there are so many already available on the used car markets!
Junk..
BTW I drive nothing but Chevrolets..
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I'm brand new to this and more than a little confused after reading the blog post . I searched around on Hector's site but could not find what he means by "clean" . Is this simply running a single patch through the bore once or a much more complicated series of brushes, cleaners, and patches . My first air rifle is supposed to arrive today and I would like to give it the best I can ,,,, Thanks
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Interesting points of view.
And ALL of them valid.
MOST important here is to clarify that in the comments of the blog entry in question a full clarification was posted.
But to save everyone's time I will re-clarify here.
The "Cleanings" take exactly 35 seconds when done correctly. Overall, the whole of the cleanings take less than ½ hour (20 to 25 mins) accumulated time.
If that is too much for you, fine, after all, it is YOUR gun! :-)
Here is a copy and paste of the clarification in the comments, section, that was copied and pasted from a post in GTA back in Feb, 2019, ROFL!
"There are two reasons, one for airguns and one for firearms, not the same, but then neither are the projectiles.
The method I use to clean is using an OTIS "pull-through" it is a steel cable (and before everyone yells "Heresy"! I have to clarify that the steel cable is covered with some very resistant plastic), that uses their own system of round patches with three holes.
Every patch gets used three times and the fit is tight and nice, just follow OTIS' instructions.
Here is a link:
https://otistec.com/17cal-patriot-gun-cleaning-kit/#product-tab-description
and:
https://otistec.com/2-small-caliber-cleaning-patches/
I buy their patches by the thousand's box, LOL! and even though my kit was originally marketed by Marksman (now Marksman-Beeman) MANY years ago, the 2" patches are still available and are as good as ever.
Three pulls (taking care neither to rub the crown, nor to get dust all over your cable), and you're done.
Why it works:
In airguns:
Basically, because using the residual carbon of the burning of the oils as a very mild "cleaning" agent, and doing it always in the same direction, you are micro-polishing the bore, lands, grooves and all. The small amount of antimony in quality pellets, also allows the residues to act as a "cleaner".
Using a cleaning agent, would actually be counterproductive in this case because cleaning agents tend to "lift" the dirt and residues, instead of using pressure and the residues themselves to smooth things out.
Remember that airgun barrels are, usually, not made of "Barrel steel" but of DOM tubing, some stiffer than other (depends on the spec), but basically it is an industrial commodity. So, using the carbon and the salts and the antimony, is usually good enough in a quality airgun barrel.
In Firearms:
Primers' compounds have glass. Yes, silica. With the temperature and friction, some of it converts to silicon oxide. An abrasive.
By cleaning every round, then every 5, then every ten, etc . . . . you ensure that the little irregularities in the steel (product of the way steel is made and worked), do not get overemphasized by the silicon oxide accumulating in the microcavities and then making them grow with the next shot.
The result is a smooth barrel.
Why is smooth important?
Because the irregularities of the barrel are one of the main reasons why barrels vibrate. And vibrations are bad for accuracy. Even more so when you are working at the lower fringe of energy needed for the projectile to come out of the bore. A barrel that is smooth and vibrates little, usually is more pellet tolerant. Rough barrels or barrels that are uneven/non uniform, usually shoot well with only ONE pellet (if at all).
At 35,000 PSI's (not to use CUP's), even medium obstacles can be overcome and ensure a stable flight from a projectile that is between 7 and 30 times heavier than our medium weight pellets. Working at 20 ft-lbs is a completely different game. And if you have ever put a pellet through a Match barrel, you will have noted that the finish is about 10 times better. Because Match guns operate at under 5.5 ft-lbs.
Is this process an absolute, fireproof, bulletproof, foolproof, way of getting an accurate barrel? Nope! there are other things that come into play, but in a sense it is like having a reasonably uniform MV: A perfectly uniform MV does not guarantee accuracy/precision, but a MV that varies all over the place sure ensures the lack thereof.
So, that is how you do it, and that is why it works. You may opt NOT to do it, and that would be fine with me, at least now you will be taking an informed decision.
HTH, Keep well and shoot straight!
HM"
So, there you have it: a copy of a copy but, now, it is a copy in itself, LOL!
We all have different ideas, and that is fine. One thing you need to remember when you read my "stuff" is that I am NOT a common user.
As a professional, I am responsible for things that belong to others.
I CANNOT slip, or take shortcuts, or risks. If they were my things I COULD (though I don't, but that is just the OCD in me), but they are not.
So, I need to err on the safe side.
My Passat TDI is in its 120,000 mile mark and still going strong yielding 42-44 mpg on trips, 40 mpg in semi-rural traffic, 37 mpg in urban traffic, yes I "ran it in properly", LOL!
Even when I test things, the tests are carefully prepared and the whole thing is completely "thought through" and sketched BEFORE making the chips fly.
In the end, it's all about what you want to get out of an activity, because, as with ALL things in life, and even life ITSELF: you get back depending on how much you put into it.
;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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I appreciate the clarification . Thank you .
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Hector,
Thank you for the clarification. A 1/2 hour total does not seem too bad.
Some years back you assisted me with an LGU trigger via a few e-mail chats. I did the Yankee Tune and it worked great.
Thanks again,... Chris
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I guess it’s too late for me to follow Hectors regimen. I got my Meisterschutze on Monday, and I’ve got about 100 shots through it. I did clean the barrel before I shot it, maybe today I’ll clean it again before more shooting. That seems like a really great deal we got of these guns last week, it would be nice to hear opinions from some of the other new Meisterschutze owners.
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I guess it’s too late for me to follow Hectors regimen. I got my Meisterschutze on Monday, and I’ve got about 100 shots through it. I did clean the barrel before I shot it, maybe today I’ll clean it again before more shooting. That seems like a really great deal we got of these guns last week, it would be nice to hear opinions from some of the other new Meisterschutze owners.
If you are concerned, ask Hector to explain fire lapping to you. That can be used to knock high spots off the surface of the bore. It can even be used to reduce tight sections, although if these are severe, lead lapping by hand with a cleaning rod can be used to focus on such areas.
In any event, the goal is to have a uniformly smooth bore that does not scrub material off the projectile. So, if a barrel does not seem to get dirty after hundreds of pellets, "you have arrived".
If your pellets have antimony in them and you shoot them over 850 FPS, then you are more likely to need occasional patching out to remove the build-up.
Pulling through dry patches will show you how much material accumulates. Pulling through a few patches will show how tenacious it is - how many patches before they come out clean.
If the gun shoots tight groups without fliers, then whatever dust is in the bore should be left alone. Removing it can't hurt anything, but you may need 10 shots for the point of impact to settle back to where it is stable.
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My pleasure, guys!
Peter is right.
IF, after some time you discover that your barrel needs frequent cleaning to keep to a standard of accuracy (as in need to clean every 150 shots or so), then a fire-lapping may be in order, but that is a different process, somewhat aggressive and better left as a "fall-back" trench line.
The composition of your pellets is also important. Antimony can "diffuse" itself onto steel, and so it "attracts" lead and lead smears in airguns. Especially those that operate at high MV's.
I received an Email asking "How can an abrasive get into microcavities and get them enlarged?"
Well, the reason is simple and has to do with why and how abrasives are made:
Abrasives are made by fracturing a crystalline substance, whether it is some of the carbides, oxides, or glasses that are naturally available (garnet) or artificially made (carborundum, Silicon Oxide, Alumina, etc.) into small grains, the finer the grain, the finer will be the finish achieved when the abrasive is used at a specific linear speed.
High linear speeds can use "coarser" grains and still obtain fine finishes.
If you have used sandpaper you know that sanding by hand needs fine grains (high number of mesh/grit), but that smaller numbers of grit can provide the same fineness of finish in an orbital/random/band/disc sander. So most of you are already familiar with the relation between linear speed and sanding grit.
What happens when there are microcavities (as those developed when a rifling button is pushed/pulled) and while moving SOME metal away from a section into another section to create lands and grooves, because of the somewhat amorphous nature of the steel (in reality a bunch of crystals dissolved in an iron matrix), microstrips of steel tear metal from one side and drag those tears to another part. Tears are irregularities
Those irregularities can "catch" abrasive particles that can in their turn catch some other particles (like sand accumulating in a dune), and it is this interlocking of sharp edges that can create a larger conglomerate particle that then creates a "groove" when it is torn from its lodging and is dragged by either a projectile, or a cleaning patch.
Bore cleaners are designed to "lift" these particles and prevent the abrasives from doing their job where they shouldn't.
Bore polishers (like JB or Corbin's) are made not of fractured materials, but of carefully sized "Platelets" that, because they are flat, cannot aggregate into a large particle. So that is what is meant by "non-embedding" in both labels.
Now, for the kicker: Smooth is good, but there IS such a thing as TOO smooth. And that is because SOFT metals (lead and gilding) smear onto steel in part by atomic attraction, but also as sort of "surface tension" phenomenon. A too smooth barrel will "lead" more easily than a "just smooth" barrel.
So, if you NOW take the fine "Clover" can and overdo it, you will know why it's not working as it "should".
;-)
Hope this helps!
HM
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So is there a benefit to doing this on a gun that's already had several thousand pellets through it, or is it just for new guns?
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So is there a benefit to doing this on a gun that's already had several thousand pellets through it, or is it just for new guns?
Jimmy;
If your gun is accurate enough for you at present, just keep on shooting until you feel it has lost its accuracy.
THEN give it a good clean with JB bore paste or Corbin's Bore cleaner, and then shoot 20 pellets just to get the bore "seasoned" to the pellet it likes.
If you find that the barrel leads up too much / too often, then we need to talk about a fire-lapping.
But take things one step at a time.
Thanks for reading!
HM
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I've never cleaned a pellet gun barrel bore in all my life except to have been guilty of firing cotton shot wads by Beeman out the bore to smear grease all over the wall I was aiming at to catch the cotton pellets!
I have ruined a few bores from cleaning in the powder realm but never was tempted to ever clean out a pellet rifle bore. I do notice times when a short time or longer time of shooting runs into "problems" but I shoot those every time. Each time I think MAYBE I need to run a brush or patch or oil or solvent or a cord with a ball down the bore the problem disappears without me acting on it.
I call those "rollover" moments with a rifle like a lake has to turnover with all the fish in it every few years (and all the dead fish are everywhere). The rifle just needed a few more pellets to scrape out whatever was in there if anything.
I also change pellets from one weight to the next and brand to the next because I shoot what's on hand. I have lights and heavies too. Then I have to recheck the zero to change pellets--but I can do that in 5 or 6 shots standing. ;D
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Thanks Hector. I did in bore paste a few weeks ago. I always give it a good cleaning in the winter. Don't know if it actually "needs" it but otherwise I don't feel like I'm treating it right. Accuracy is quite good, John in PA tuned it. Can't equal that 65 shot group of yours in that article, I must say that was impressive. But the gun has done the same for 19 out of 20 shot group, so I can't complain.
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Just another opinion here that may be valid or not.
Cleaning after a group of shots is a method of insuring a pellet makes contact with the high and low spots in a machined barrel.
I have had good success by swabbing new barrels with JB bore paste that pretty much does the same thing. It takes off the micro high spots and smooths out the barrel's internals just like the shooting process does. A lot of time and pellets get saved using this method.
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Sorry if I skimmed too much but it seems this break-in method is just for springers?
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Just another opinion here that may be valid or not.
Cleaning after a group of shots is a method of insuring a pellet makes contact with the high and low spots in a machined barrel.
I have had good success by swabbing new barrels with JB bore paste that pretty much does the same thing. It takes off the micro high spots and smooths out the barrel's internals just like the shooting process does. A lot of time and pellets get saved using this method.
Bob;
Yes and no.
When you polish a bore with JB bore paste, you usually use a swab (as I infer from your entry). A swab is "spongy" by definition, and so it will polish the "high" and the "low" spots more or less equally.
Using the pellet as the cleaning body has the advantage that, dimensions-wise "lead is dead"; it is a metal that has no "spring", so you attack the "high" spots more thoroughly than the "low" spots, and therefore achieve, not only a smooth surface, but also more UNIFORM internal dimensions AND surface.
AGAIN, ALL opinions are valid. The MAIN thing here is to understand (even if we opt NOT to do it), the mechanics of the process.
Thanks for reading, keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Sorry if I skimmed too much but it seems this break-in method is just for springers?
Nope!
This method works in almost ANYTHING that has a barrel (Except for the super-polished and then hard-chromed barrels).
Now, that it works for the barrels does not mean it works for all shooters, LOL!
I know we live in the times of the "sound-byte" and the 5 seconds commercials, it is up to each one of us to "disconnect" from this "maelström", to devote time to what is truly important: Family, Health (mental also), G'd, whatever is in your priorities.
Take your time, and smell the roses . . . ;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Hector, thank you for explaining how to and why. It makes sense and I plan on doing it to my next new one.
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Instead of cleaning bores I will be smelling the roses in an easy chair preparing for another volley of pellets to send downrange into their own Maelstroms.......... ::)
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Instead of cleaning bores I will be smelling the roses in an easy chair preparing for another volley of pellets to send downrange into their own Maelstroms.......... ::)
John;
At least in the D54, someone else did that for you . . . ;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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In the end, it's all about what you want to get out of an activity, because, as with ALL things in life, and even life ITSELF: you get back depending on how much you put into it.
;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
Hmmmm...
Homer Simpson taught me that if a thing isn't easy, it's not worth doing.
....now I'm confused :-\
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Hector; not to beat a dead horse here but just want to confirm. The patches you're pulling through with your Otis kit between shots are DRY patches with NO solvent; as a solvent of any kind would be counterintuitive as the solvent would lift out the residues we want in place as the pressures from the residues are essentially at our advantage to smooth things uniformly? I do the initial (new gun) cleaning with Goo Gone and pull through with a Crown Saver until clean patches (similar to the Otis system). I've got an extra 20-25 min and would like to give this a try for its first shots. Just wanted to confirm that they are DRY patches only between shots. Thanks
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In the end, it's all about what you want to get out of an activity, because, as with ALL things in life, and even life ITSELF: you get back depending on how much you put into it.
;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
Hmmmm...
Homer Simpson taught me that if a thing isn't easy, it's not worth doing.
....now I'm confused :-\
Then you must have British ancestry.
;-)
HM
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Hector; not to beat a dead horse here but just want to confirm. The patches you're pulling through with your Otis kit between shots are DRY patches with NO solvent; as a solvent of any kind would be counterintuitive as the solvent would lift out the residues we want in place as the pressures from the residues are essentially at our advantage to smooth things uniformly? I do the initial (new gun) cleaning with Goo Gone and pull through with a Crown Saver until clean patches (similar to the Otis system). I've got an extra 20-25 min and would like to give this a try for its first shots. Just wanted to confirm that they are DRY patches only between shots. Thanks
No problem 3 at 8!
YES, all the patches are DRY.
As I have explained, and you understood correctly: "cleaners" of any kind (solvents are one of them), would "lift" those small particles we are USING to polish and burnish our bore.
Yes you understood correctly.
Good luck and keep us posted!
HM
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This is a very interesting thread. About the time it started, I ordered a 22 barrel for my HW95.
Took a long time to get here but finally arrived two days ago. So I determined to give this procedure a try with an unfired barrel.
First thing was clean with googone to get all the brown out. Then I gave it ten strokes with a mop and JB polish. Then cleaned it again. Wow the patches pull through easier after the polish.
Then installed the barrel and began shooting. This is my first 22 so I did some speed readings with the first five shots. I was getting 197mps or about 646fps consistent for the first five shots with CPHP 14.3s.
Then I followed Hectors procedure through 300 shots. This morning I checked velocity again to find it shooting a consistent 205mps or about 672fps.
So I will now continue to shoot and see how it goes. Small sample, but these are my results so far.
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This is a very interesting thread. About the time it started, I ordered a 22 barrel for my HW95.
Took a long time to get here but finally arrived two days ago. So I determined to give this procedure a try with an unfired barrel.
First thing was clean with googone to get all the brown out. Then I gave it ten strokes with a mop and JB polish. Then cleaned it again. Wow the patches pull through easier after the polish.
Then installed the barrel and began shooting. This is my first 22 so I did some speed readings with the first five shots. I was getting 197mps or about 646fps consistent for the first five shots with CPHP 14.3s.
Then I followed Hectors procedure through 300 shots. This morning I checked velocity again to find it shooting a consistent 205mps or about 672fps.
So I will now continue to shoot and see how it goes. Small sample, but these are my results so far.
Thanks, Kurt!
Keep well, shoot straight and keep us posted.
HM