GTA

All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => German AirGun Gate => Topic started by: Oldgringo on November 10, 2020, 10:53:51 PM

Title: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Oldgringo on November 10, 2020, 10:53:51 PM
Home again, home again jiggedy jig!  After 16 nights on the road in our modest RV TT, we return home to find that I am still censored on FB until the end of the month.  Apparently, the limpwristed FB dweebs like left-wing burners, looters, murderers, and rapists, etc. more than I do?

Back on topic, thanks to our good neighbor, there is a recently tuned Diana 48 from Hector Medina and a recently tuned Beeman R9 from John in PA lying in well-packed boxes on our LR floor. These two guns were sent off 3-4 weeks ago and have been treated and returned from their master tuners.  I expect that they both will be great improvements over what left their respective factories. 

Tomorrow after my weekly blood tests, I'll see how they do with various pellets from the bench on our covered patio at 30 yards.  Heck fire, I may even break out the chrony?
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Jshooter71 on November 10, 2020, 11:14:33 PM
Congratulations Greg. Glad you & Mrs. Gringo had a good trip. Hope you enjoy shooting those rifles. Being banned, you can stay focused on them fine tuned machines. Social media is stupid anyway. They deleted my first account after numerous temporary bans. For keeping in touch with friends & family, I’m going back to the old black-book & pencil with phone numbers & addresses. I might even write a letter or 2 every now & then, stick a glossy photo of my dinner in the envelope so they know what we’ve been eating.  ;)
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Yogi on November 11, 2020, 06:56:12 AM
Greg,

Stick with shooting.  Social media is the cause of all the country's current problems.  I'm surprised Kanye West (Ye, as he likes to be called), did not win the election. 8)
Wish people would get off their soapboxs and adjust their scopes.  Rant over. ;D
Hope you like the new Frauleins.

-Y
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Struckat on November 11, 2020, 09:35:38 PM
Greg, having just completed a “Home tune” of my new 95, I can only imagine how sweet those two will be.

Social media? Yogi is on target.
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Oldgringo on November 12, 2020, 12:00:24 AM
This afternoon, the Diana 48 and I shot several different pellets off the bench at 30 yards.  While we never quite equaled the groups that Hector Medina sent with the returned Diana 48, we got close with H&N FTT 4.52 TT's.  Oh well, tomorrow's another day.

OTOH, I dearly love my new Beeman R9 back from John in PA.  No twang, silky smooth and still right on target with my spinner spoons at 25yards.  The gold safety button says, "look at me".  Good John, John!
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: triggerfest on November 12, 2020, 02:57:47 AM
The best models from both brands imo !!

Congrats !
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Jshooter71 on November 12, 2020, 07:00:41 AM
That’s great, Greg!!!
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: chemclay on November 12, 2020, 10:10:37 AM
This afternoon, the Diana 48 and I shot several different pellets off the bench at 30 yards.  While we never quite equaled the groups that Hector Medina sent with the returned Diana 48, we got close with H&N FTT 4.52 TT's.  Oh well, tomorrow's another day.

OTOH, I dearly love my new Beeman R9 back from John in PA.  No twang, silky smooth and still right on target with my spinner spoons at 25yards.  The gold safety button says, "look at me".  Good John, John!

I've been thinking about a magnum springer. Can you give me any more info about the Diana 48?
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Oldgringo on November 13, 2020, 11:28:04 AM
This afternoon, the Diana 48 and I shot several different pellets off the bench at 30 yards.  While we never quite equaled the groups that Hector Medina sent with the returned Diana 48, we got close with H&N FTT 4.52 TT's.  Oh well, tomorrow's another day.

OTOH, I dearly love my new Beeman R9 back from John in PA.  No twang, silky smooth and still right on target with my spinner spoons at 25yards.  The gold safety button says, "look at me".  Good John, John!

I've been thinking about a magnum springer. Can you give me any more info about the Diana 48?

Not really, Ron.  I got it for the novelty of it at a good price from another member.  I sent it to Hector to tune it down and he did a fine job of it.  I shot it pretty much all afternoon without wearing myself out cocking it sideways.  I'm not sure I know what a "magnum airgun" is but my Beeman R9 shoots H&N 4.51 FTT's just shy of 900 fps.  That's plenty magnum for my backyard shooting. 

Good luck with your pursuit.
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Mrblonde40 on November 13, 2020, 11:46:08 AM
John does good work.  He did my HW95 a few months back, and I've been real happy with it.
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Tomcat on November 19, 2020, 04:29:51 PM
This afternoon, the Diana 48 and I shot several different pellets off the bench at 30 yards.  While we never quite equaled the groups that Hector Medina sent with the returned Diana 48, we got close with H&N FTT 4.52 TT's.  Oh well, tomorrow's another day.

OTOH, I dearly love my new Beeman R9 back from John in PA.  No twang, silky smooth and still right on target with my spinner spoons at 25yards.  The gold safety button says, "look at me".  Good John, John!

I've been thinking about a magnum springer. Can you give me any more info about the Diana 48?

Hey chemclay, I'm not Oldgringo, but I do have a Diana 52 from the late 80's-early 90's and a Diana 48 from 3-4 years ago.  My D52 is .177 cal and has been trouble free and has the original Diana 2-7X scope on it.  I also bought a D52 in 22 cal back then and foolishly sold it. About 3-4 years ago I bought another D48 in 22 cal and love it.  Both guns have had a new spring guide and lube tune (by me) but have the original springs and seals. The 52 has a checkered and walnut stained beech stock. It is very accurate IMO and has taken a few squirrels in it's day.

The D48 in 22 cal was also lube tuned with a new spring guide and is very accurate although I have only shot it indoors at 10 yds.  It will make a one pellet sized hole for 5 shots (not ragged but one pellet size). The D48 is also a wood stock but finished black and came from AOA.

They are two of my favorite airguns and although heavy, are pretty smooth shooters for their power level. I recently gave away my HW95 (.177) to my son-in-law and still have a HW50 and HW30.

If I had to rely on putting food on the table and could only have airguns I would turn to either of the Dianas. That is how much I trust them.

Some say the side cock is difficult to get used to, but I have never found it to be a problem and I am 79 yrs old. Also some say they eat scopes, but that has not been my experience. I have a Leapers UTG 3-9X32 on the D48.

If I was to list a down side, it would be the weight, but that's what makes them relatively smooth shooting for their power level.
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Madd Hatter on November 19, 2020, 04:50:11 PM
This afternoon, the Diana 48 and I shot several different pellets off the bench at 30 yards.  While we never quite equaled the groups that Hector Medina sent with the returned Diana 48, we got close with H&N FTT 4.52 TT's.  Oh well, tomorrow's another day.

OTOH, I dearly love my new Beeman R9 back from John in PA.  No twang, silky smooth and still right on target with my spinner spoons at 25yards.  The gold safety button says, "look at me".  Good John, John!

I've been thinking about a magnum springer. Can you give me any more info about the Diana 48?
What do you need to know? I've had one since 1993 that I bought used from Beeman that was made in 1987. I replaced the spring with a vortec kit about a year and a half ago because I thought the spring was either broken or just plain sacked out. Turns out it was the altitude I was living at that made it seem so. It's a.177 cal that's very accurate if I do my part. I do wish I would have saved a little more money and bought a.22 version but that's my only regret. I still have the original 2X7 RWS scope on it that I bought in 1993 brand new. My only problem with it was the pin in the windage adj wore down and would walk changing the poi. I solved that problem by using blue loctite.
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Oldgringo on November 19, 2020, 05:53:18 PM
Ron, Tom and Robert above have given you more Diana 48 experience than I have.  My Diana 48 was tuned down for cocking ease and I like it. 

Below is a 30 yard, 5 shot group made, from the bench, this afternoon with 4.53 JSB 8.44 Exacts. ❤
 
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Jshooter71 on November 19, 2020, 05:56:46 PM
Nice shooting, Greg!
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: HectorMedina on November 20, 2020, 12:32:23 PM
Ron, Tom and Robert above have given you more Diana 48 experience than I have.  My Diana 48 was tuned down for cocking ease and I like it. 

Below is a 30 yard, 5 shot group made, from the bench, this afternoon with 4.53 JSB 8.44 Exacts. ❤

Good shooting!
The gun is the gun, but it is still the shooter the ones that reads the conditions and pulls the trigger!

THANKS!




HM
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: chemclay on November 20, 2020, 04:49:24 PM
My Diana 48 was tuned down for cocking ease and I like it.

Greg
What was your D48 tuned to?
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Oldgringo on November 20, 2020, 06:05:09 PM
My Diana 48 was tuned down for cocking ease and I like it.

Greg
What was your D48 tuned to?

The cocking effort was greatly reduced and some cleanup was done to its innards.  Hector Medina can give you more definitive and technical info.  Whatever Hector did, I like it!
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: HectorMedina on November 20, 2020, 08:10:47 PM
Ron;

Greg's 48 was short stroked using a specially made piston.

Short stroking allows the fulcrum point of the cocking linkage in the lever to be moved, therefore you use the FULL ARC of the stroke to cock the gun.
Since the energy you are putting in the gun is, in a way, the product of multiplying the peak force times the distance; by augmenting the arc, you are increasing the distance.
For less peak force, you can accumulate the same energy/work.

Ron's 48 had some little problems MOST of them I fixed under "warranty" things like re-crowning the barrel, removing pellet debris from the breech, changing the breech seal to an improved-composite seal, trigger was adjusted to the cleanest possible break, and a light tuning using the OEM muzzle piece was done.

In the end, the gun needs 23# of peak cocking to yield over 13 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle with certain lead pellets. As things go, Greg discovered that the JSB's 8.44/4.53 were the most accurate for HIM, and that is what matters.

It may not be a "magnum" by common measure, but an 8.44 grs. JSB flying at 820fps is no slouch, and if it only requires 23# to cock, it makes for a PLEASANT shooting tool. Which will lead to more shooting that, in turn, will lead to more and better shots, which, in the end, is the whole idea: Marksmanship and proficiency.

If it takes a bear to cock the gun, the odds that you will become really and truly proficient in its use are slim.

Just human engineering.

;-)

Keep well and shoot straight!





HM

Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: chemclay on November 20, 2020, 09:24:00 PM
Incredible shooting with an incredible tune. Can short stroking and this type tuning help marksmanship and proficiency in magnum energy guns?
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Oldgringo on November 20, 2020, 10:10:03 PM
Incredible shooting with an incredible tune. Can short stroking and this type tuning help marksmanship and proficiency in magnum energy guns?

What Hector said above.  He is the man!
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: HectorMedina on November 21, 2020, 02:47:00 PM
Incredible shooting with an incredible tune. Can short stroking and this type tuning help marksmanship and proficiency in magnum energy guns?

Ron;

It ALL depends on WHAT you define as "Magnum" energy. LOL!

What happens with waisted/skirted pellets is that because of their shape, they exhibit a stability limit at around 875 fps. And this is ONE, possibly the ONLY, tenet that holds across all the airgunning world. SOME pellets may tolerate a bit more, some a bit less, at some altitudes this number may change slightly (it's a function of the Reynold's number that depends on the density of air), but IN GENERAL, this number is one (possibly the ONLY one, I repeat) of the "HARD" numbers in airgunning.

So, for an 8.44 grs. pellet, the MAX stability velocity under normal atmospheric conditions is a "paltry" 14½ ft-lbs, or thereabouts.
Surprised?  most veteran airgunners are, also. And some don't even believe it, but to each his own.

When you go to 0.22", again talking about STEEL SPRING guns, there seems to be a practical limit at the 16-18 grs. pellet. Some actions are even limited to the 14 grainers. It all depends on the swept volume, length of barrel, and "rail speed" of the piston/guide assembly. So, that with the 0.22" cal. guns you CANNOT exceed the stability limit of the pellets because you would have to find an ACCURATE barrel in a gun that can yield 27 ft-lbs. Those guns that can reach these energy levels, are usually gas springed and take 45-55# of peak cocking force, so they are not truly shootable enough to acquire the necessary skill/muscle memory level.

This is where the 0.20" cal is interesting. at 13.X grains (either the Baracuda or the JSB), the 0.20" cal. CAN be shot at around 23 ft-lbs for 875 fps., maximizing the ballistic potential on all fronts. The guns themselves are the limit here. Apart from the D54 family I know of no other gun capable of achieving this level in a consistent, reliable, and stable manner. Sadly, 0.20" cal D54's are VERY scarce (and expensive), but that is the reason for existence of the few that are around.

What is MORE available is the D48 and the D460 in 0.22". And that is something we can work on together, if you want.
It CANNOT yield top ballistic performance in a short-stroke/easy-cocking version, and the best long range pellets in existence today for the limits of the spring-piston powerplant are probably the 16 and 18 grainers from JSB so if you really want "Magnum" performance from a fixed barrel gun, you should be looking at the D48 or the 460.

IMHO, the 48 is more a "shooter", the 460 is more a "hunter".
At these power levels, you will NEED  to lift the gun from the bench to shoot the next shot, re-positioning the gun into the rests is easier with the 48 than with the long and slender 460. The 460 carries better into the field and comes into action in a more, better, and "quick" ready.

The T06 Trigger CAN be set to around 15 oz safely, though I would advise against a very short first stage pull. The slant of the pistol grip in a sporter stock is better taken advantage of by using a LONG first stage and a "swept back" position for the trigger break; because then you can "squeeze" the trigger between ball at the base of the thumb and index, without putting any pressure/force into the rest of the stock with the trigger hand. It is something that you will probably need to become accustomed to, but a worthwhile skill when shooting springers of any appreciable power level.

Coming back to Greg's gun: it could have rather easily developed the 14.3 ft-lbs with a little more cocking effort, BUT, humans are peculiar creatures, we can think nothing of lifting our 160 # step by step in a staircase, but if you ask us to do a dozen chin-ups, few of us would manage even a few repetitions, let alone the dozen.
Cocking an airgun requires some muscles that we do not generally use, and some shooters substitute muscles they shouldn't, and then get "tennis elbow" or other pains in the joints, especially the shoulder joints.
After some years of seeing some friends leave the spring-piston rifle for the PCP world due to hurt shoulders and/or diminished strength, the short-stroking solution came into being. Since then it has helped quite a lot of Juniors, Ladies, Senior Gentlemen, and friends with torn rotator cuffs/repaired elbows.

Hope this clarifies the intent, the limits and the facilities allowed by the DIANA 48->56 platform.

Keep well and shoot straight!





HM

Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Jshooter71 on November 21, 2020, 03:40:33 PM
Excellent information, Sir Hector! Is there a list of Maximum Stability Velocities and Factors for known pellets for us to look for guidance? And about that Reynolds factor, I’m at 1400 ft... I’d imagine barometric pressure as well plays a part. Not the first time I’ve heard about elevation affecting velocity, but never really been explained other than slower at altitude. Is there a way for us to do some calculations to determine if we’re playing within a certain set of rules for success vs. beating ourselves trying to make something happen that never will? Like you alluded to, I would imagine from one platform to another things would be different. Some things are still trial & error since most advertised FPS per manufacturer is inflated.
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Yogi on November 21, 2020, 04:38:14 PM
" Maximum Stability Velocities" this would be very individual barrel  and pellet specific.  Some barrels are better than others on the same model gun.
Every pellet is different.  That is why top level shooters weight and size their pellets.  However, general rule of thumb that I have heard is 925 fps is about as fast as you want to go.  Most guns shoot well in the 800-875 fps range.  PCP's may be different? :-\

-Y
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: HectorMedina on November 21, 2020, 06:18:41 PM
Yogi brings out an interesting point. SOME barrels may be so badly made that they will not stabilize pellets at speeds even approaching the Max Stability Limit mentioned here.
And this is the difference: For ME a limit is a limit. It is a place beyond which, no matter what you do, you cannot go.
And so, as my experience is concerned, no skirted/waisted pellet can fly well at MV's much higher than 875 fps. EVEN IN THE BEST OF BARRELS, pushing the MV much above that is jut a delusion.

Let me tell you a story from the world of the PCP's:

There was this shooter that claimed that "X" pellets out of his PCP were flying very accurately at around 1,000 fps. He presented a number of different test targets to prove it. All target shot at his normal range (apparently he had a large backyard). We had some discussions and we never agreed, so unilaterally, I agreed to disagree because I really have little time to discuss with people who do not want to understand.
Over time, he reduced the MV's of his guns and when he was queried about it, he said that the shot count had become important.
Then he said that he had detected some "wobbling" of the pellets, but that he thought those were from a "bad batch"
Then he claimed that the wind was playing tricks on him.
Finally, he commented that he had been shooting from a SECLUDED section of his property (indoors), and that the first 15 yards were "protected". It was when he moved from that location that he realized that his pellets had been at the EDGE of stability, and that once they were not afforded the protection of seclusion, pellets started flying "funny".
;-)

It did help that a video appeared a few months later showing that REDUCING some pellets' MV's also reduces the "corkscrewing/wobbling" in the trajectory.

LOL! In any event, he settled into the 950 fps region and, as a hunter, he is happy. So am I!

If that tickles his fancy, so be it.

For design and implementation purposes, I will stick to the 875 fps as a good, solid number at which we can be CONFIDENT that we can do as much as we can and STILL see results of smart improvements.

Now, as to the altitude effect:
Springers are MUCH MORE affected by LACK of air in the powerplant, than the pellets are affected by the change in air density/Reynolds number.

The effect on the stability limit is about 1.7% for every 5,000 ft of elevation. While the loss of power/energy due to altitude changes (on average) at a ratio roughly equivalent to 2.5% loss per 1,000 ft above the first 1,000 ft in a compounded manner.
So the loss of ME is vastly superior to the slowing down of the MV Stability limit.

HTH, keep well and shoot straight!





HM
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: chemclay on November 21, 2020, 08:55:17 PM
Hector

Can the D48 be tuned to be a smooth and accurate shooter at factory energy and cocking effort so as to be enjoyed by a much less knowledgeable air gunner?
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Oldgringo on November 21, 2020, 09:18:50 PM
Hector

Can the D48 be tuned to be a smooth and accurate shooter at factory energy and cocking effort so as to be enjoyed by a much less knowledgeable air gunner?

Hector did it to mine.  Viva Hector!
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: chemclay on November 21, 2020, 09:35:33 PM
Hector

Can the D48 be tuned to be a smooth and accurate shooter at factory energy and cocking effort so as to be enjoyed by a much less knowledgeable air gunner?

Hector did it to mine.  Viva Hector!


Then I really need to get together with Hector!
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Oldgringo on November 22, 2020, 12:03:36 AM
Hector

Can the D48 be tuned to be a smooth and accurate shooter at factory energy and cocking effort so as to be enjoyed by a much less knowledgeable air gunner?

Hector did it to mine.  Viva Hector!


Then I really need to get together with Hector!

YES!  Hector is a Gentleman and a scholar.
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: HectorMedina on November 22, 2020, 12:39:27 PM
Thanks Greg for your kind words. Greatly Appreciated.

Ron.- What is hard to convey through a keyboard is how difficult it is to shoot a powerful springer with REAL consistency. So let me give you two bits of data, that apply to TARGET SHOOTING ONLY:

1.- EVEN where the rules allow up to 20 ft-lbs of energy, the truly good "open piston" class shooters choose to operate at between 12 and 14 ft-lbs using an 0.177" cal gun for shots out to 55 yards.
2.- In MOST shoots, the top 5 WFTF class Piston shooters, usually OUTSHOOT the middle of the pack PCP shooters. And all WFTF shooters shoot at UNDER 12 ft-lbs 0.177 cal rifles.

With a 23# peak coking force, it is much more probable to reach a high level of proficiency, than with a 37-45# PCF level. You will shoot a lot more and, therefore, get better in the long run.

I have prepared a LOT of hunting airguns, and those are different because, at most, you take 30 shots in a session (10 to warm up and re-zero, and 20 to get rid of pests). Then you have lunch and have another go in the afternoon. (we're talking pigeons, starlings. grackles, and other flocking birds under ranch/stable/farm conditions). Squirrels? You take at most 10 "for score" shots. Woodchucks? Maybe three "for score" shots, and so on. So, that is a COMPLETELY different setting and, curiously enough, it has been my experience that stability of the FIRST/COLD bore shot is more important than anything else.

For target shooting, it is much more "human" to stay where the body and mind can stay focused.

So, if you are mostly interested in target shooting out to 55 yards, then I would suggest following Greg's route: A short stroked 48, FITTED to your size, because 48's are a bit "short" for some adults.

If you REALLY have to push the limits out to 100 yards, then you will need to go to a 0.22" Full power, no "easy cocking" (37-45#), smooth yes, but not "easy". You will have to commit to a certain degree of physical fitness, maybe even exercise a little.
Maybe using a heavier than normal piston and a heavier than normal spring, to achieve stability with 18 grs. pellets.
A good Mount, a good scope (36X) because 100 yards is a really long shot for a 0.22 " cal. projectile (even when fired from a RF).

Paraphrasing the Olympic Motto (Citius, Altius, Fortius) into: Forcius Altae Stadia; It takes strength to reach higher and farther.

;-)

Is there a way to reach out to a 100 yards with a short-stroked version?  Not with any reasonable surety.
As you can read here:

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-wide-and-wonderful-range-of-a-short-stroked-d-54 (https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-wide-and-wonderful-range-of-a-short-stroked-d-54)

The performance limit of the short stroked platform (24# of PCF) is about 15 ft-lbs. In a 54, that is still manageable, in a 48, it borders on "bucking bronco" territory. AND, not all barrels will be accurate at this limit (900 fps with an 8.44 pellet).
It COULD be that, with a 0.22" cal. gun, we could reach the 17-18 ft-lbs, just because of the expansion ratio of the barrel.
That would mean a MV of about 720 fps for a 16 grain pellet/750 fps with a 14.3 grainer, and that would entail VERY SHARP wind-reading skills to be precise on target under open field conditions.

So, your choice/your decision. Technologically, it is possible and I am willing to do the experiment for you in any of these two ways.

Drop me a PM through my contact page in the website

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/contact-us.html (https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/contact-us.html)

to get the project launched.

Keep well and shoot straight!





HM
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Yogi on November 22, 2020, 12:52:56 PM
Hector what would be the pellet drop at 100 yards with .22 pellets with your maxed out D48?

FWIW-For me anything that requires more than 3 1/2 hash marks holdover, I consider a lucky shot... ;D ;D ;D

-Y
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: chemclay on November 22, 2020, 01:41:40 PM
Hector

PM sent.

Ron
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Jshooter71 on November 22, 2020, 01:46:58 PM
Fantastic stuff, Hector!
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: HectorMedina on November 22, 2020, 07:38:07 PM
Hector what would be the pellet drop at 100 yards with .22 pellets with your maxed out D48?

FWIW-For me anything that requires more than 3 1/2 hash marks holdover, I consider a lucky shot... ;D ;D ;D

-Y
It all depends on how you are accustomed to shooting, Yogi.

If you think of the old time "Big Fifty" Sharps shooters that used to shoot Bison commercially at between 500 to 1000 yards, the challenge is comparable.
People still use old time Black Powder Cartridges (like the 0.45"-70-405, more commonly known as "45-70 Government") to shoot at 1,000 yards. And some of them do not even use a scope.
Slow projectiles, as long as you shoot them in the velocity ranges where their drag coefficient does not change much can be surprisingly accurate and precise.

Besides, the drop from "Zero" depends on where the "Zero" is ¿no?  ;-)

So, more than enter into a debate of where the zero should be, what is "reasonable" or not, or how each of us shoots, let's look at cold numbers (somewhat hypothetical, but based in reality):

System   Diana 48 SS / Sightron SII Target 36X42                  
Projectile   JSB Exact   0.22   Inch   15.9   Grain      
BC   0.031   Profile   GA            
MV   700   (Ft/s)   ZR   75   (Yard)      
SH   1.75   (Inch)               
AmbT   15   (deg C)   AmbP   29.92   ("Hg)      
Wind   7.5   M/h   Full value            
                     
Range   POI   POI   Drift   Cd   Time   Vel.   Energy
(Yard)(mrad)(clk)(mrad)   (prj)   (sec)   (Ft/s) (FtLbf)
                     
40   4.1   -57   1.3   0.288   0.19   599   12.67
45   3.6   -50   1.5   0.287   0.21   588   12.19
50   3.1   -43   1.7   0.286   0.24   577   11.73
55   2.5   -35   1.9   0.285   0.26   566   11.30
60   2.0   -27   2.1   0.285   0.29   555   10.88
                     
65   1.3   -18   2.3   0.286   0.32   545   10.47
70   0.7   -9   2.5   0.286   0.35   534   10.08
75   0.0   0   2.7   0.287   0.37   524   9.70
80   -0.7   10   2.9   0.288   0.40   514   9.34
85   -1.4   20   3.1   0.288   0.43   505   8.99
                     
90   -2.2   30   3.4   0.289   0.46   495   8.65
95   -3.0   41   3.6   0.289   0.49   486   8.32
100   -3.8   52   3.8   0.290   0.52   476   8.01


Sorry for the misalignment of some numbers, but inserting a graphic table takes too much time.

So, for this hypothetical system, sighted in at 75 yards, you come DOWN 50 something clicks to shoot at 40, and you come UP about the same number of clicks to shoot at 100.
The lowest Cd (Drag coefficient) is 0.285, the highest is 0.290, so we're keeping the Cd and therefore the BC to a reasonably constant value.

Wind drift has been calculated for a 7.5 Mph wind at full value (3 or 9 O'Clock)

Compensating wind with clicks is an interesting skill. At 100 yards, as long as there is enough DIFFERENCE in ground and air temperature you can read the drift by using the rolling waves  of the mirage with a scope backed out about 1/3 of the distance to the target.

Now, if I wanted to do this, I WOULD  choose the SIGHTRON SII Target scope, which would mean that I would need to DOUBLE the clicks on the table (table is calculated at 1/4 MOA, scope has 1/8 MOA). So at 100 clicks EITHER way,  scope is at about 1/2 of its full excursion from one end to the other (60 MOA's)

Of course, MOST probable scenario is that a special scope base would need to be contrived/made, but, again, that is doable and it depends on the real values of the system in question.

Which we will not know until we decide to test the concept.

As to how to make the trajectory to 100 yards keep within the first two or three hash marks, the solution is simple: Use an 8X Crossbow scope with a 50 yard Zero! LOL!

¿Chicken-Egg; Anyone?

Keep well and shoot straight!



HM
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Yogi on November 22, 2020, 10:20:23 PM
Well at least you did not say, "the solution is simple use a Duplex reticled scope," LOL.

I should have said,  a maxed out D48 zeroed at 30 yards.  I believe that +/- 3-5 yards, this is where most springer airgun scopes should be zeroed.  A 75 yard zero might be realistic with a powerful PCP, but not any springers...

-Y
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: HectorMedina on November 23, 2020, 03:43:01 PM
Well at least you did not say, "the solution is simple use a Duplex reticled scope," LOL.

I should have said,  a maxed out D48 zeroed at 30 yards.  I believe that +/- 3-5 yards, this is where most springer airgun scopes should be zeroed.  A 75 yard zero might be realistic with a powerful PCP, but not any springers...

-Y

Yogi;

Again, you are talking about custom and habit.
Some FT shooters use 45 yards "zero" 's, even though they "click" for every shot, so they are ALWAYS on "Zero". Under this set of circumstances, the 45 yards is just where the barrel has been regulated to be at the optical center of the scope.

Those of us that shoot without clicking, normally use the "Apex" of the trajectory, or very nearly so, to set the zero because that offers the most control about mil-dot windage in those reticles that have the Christmas tree style of reticles.
Back when I was shooting my full power 0.20" cal D54, I used to use a 40 meters (about 44½ yards)  zero because at the apex (27 meters), the shots were ½ mrad high, and out to 70 meters (about 77 yards), I was still within the 2 ½ mrad, or 5 divisions in my SIGHTRON SIII MOA-H. But that gun shoots the 14.7 grs at 850 fps.
Again, this is where the 0.20" cal maximizes the possibilities of a piston airgun.
I've shot a few 100 yards groups, normally in the 2½" region, but at times, you CAN get groups in the 1¾" region, which is very enticing.

;-)  You do have to be "top of your game" for that, and, MOSTLY, you need to know the range very well to "feel"/read the wind.

Keep well and shoot straight!





HM
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Yogi on November 23, 2020, 09:08:11 PM
Hector,

I solidly agree,  Never heard of a 45 zero for hunter class though......
At anything over 40 yards, any anglular wind over 10 mph needs to be taken into account.  I'm sure at 100 yds, times 10. ;D
At 15 to 20 yard hunting scenarios, much less so.

What I get is a 18 grain .22 pellet with a BC of .04 (maybe 2 high) leaving the muzzle at 900 fps, zeroed at 30 yds drops 2 inches to the zero and another 2 FEET to 100 yards, with 0mph wind.
2 feet, 24 inches, 60 cm., more hash marks than I can count. ;D ;D ;D ;D

May 2021 be MUCH better than 2020, can't get any worse..... :'(

-Yogi

Ps any chance that you can convince Sightron to make a dicated 16 X fixed power scope just for FT hunter Class?  If they could make a superior scope in the $300-500 range, every FT hunter class shooter I know would buy one. 8)
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: fwbsport on November 24, 2020, 06:16:43 AM
Well Hector this is something I heard from you before leading me to get your D54 .20, which I said was "breaking bricks" at 25 yards behind my reactive targets.

The .177 Daystate Huntsman Regal has the working pressure at 210 BAR for average mv of 898 fps which hits on target closer than all other rifles (I leaned into a rested upright position to make one hole groups at the beginning of 225 BAR and 180 BAR) and still have those groups on paper to see!

The HW95 .177 uses JSB Exact to have an average of the SAME: 898 fps mv and THAT springer is as I have posted AMAZING!  Even nced agrees!

While the Daystate uses 10.33 gr Rangemaster Sovereigns (they are heavier but the PCP is able to deal with it) to get one hole groups the HW95 can use Lite JSB exacts as well with a vertical change in impact not measuring too much.

Shooting your rifle in .20 (mine now!) reminds me of the Daystate PCP in firing character.  The only thing "different" is the sidelever vs the PCP reservoir!

Now, I think by NOW you have my rifle in your hands to re-adjust and I WOULD like you to explicate what you found out with it and what you are intending to do right here on this forum!  May I ask this in view of your fine work here on this with the D48?

Our minds are mesmerized by your revelations!

 8)
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: HectorMedina on November 24, 2020, 12:39:27 PM
John;

I think we have hijacked enough Greg's thread.

So, I'll start another one.

Here:  https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=180541.msg156050341#msg156050341 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=180541.msg156050341#msg156050341)

Keep well and shoot straight!




HM
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: HectorMedina on November 24, 2020, 12:52:12 PM
Hector,

Ps any chance that you can convince Sightron to make a dicated 16 X fixed power scope just for FT hunter Class?  If they could make a superior scope in the $300-500 range, every FT hunter class shooter I know would buy one. 8)

Just to answer your question:
We HAVE been working on a completely new scope with SIGHTRON.
And I say "we" because Scott Hull is also part of the effort. For those that do not know him Scott has been National Champion in Hunter Piston class, he always places top five in any competition he goes to, he is a remarkable marksman, and an all-around nice guy.

The specs of the scope is a 9-45X56 FFP mrad based scope with a really useful reticle. ED glass in the objective, aspherical lenses in the erector assembly. It WOULD have a 16X mark in the mag ring, to be legal for AAFTA Hunter FT.

Why variable? because as SWFA showed, the fixed mag scopes do not have enough market to ensure their commercial survival.
This scope will be a cross-over scope between FT, Hunter FT, Police Marksman and F Class shooters, so we HOPE that that will mean enough users to make it a reality.

The scope specs had been settled and we were in the process of the reticle design when CoViD struck, so the project is somewhat at a standstill, but the interest is there on both sides and I do think that it will become a reality sometime in the future.

The first iteration out of Japan was a disaster BTW, ROFL! At almost 40 oz, it was completely unmanageable.

So, back to the drawing board for the optical engineers, ;-)

HTH, keep well and shoot straight!






HM
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Yogi on November 25, 2020, 02:47:10 AM
Well what do you expect with a  9-45X56 FFP scope?  What was the target weight, 39 oz? ;D
Anything over 20 oz on a 12fpe springer would be a deal killer for me......
One size DOES NOT fit all. :-\

-Y
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: HectorMedina on November 25, 2020, 03:47:51 PM
Well what do you expect with a  9-45X56 FFP scope?  What was the target weight, 39 oz? ;D
Anything over 20 oz on a 12fpe springer would be a deal killer for me......
One size DOES NOT fit all. :-\

-Y

Yogi;

Actually, we were expecting something around 25 Oz.

The Full Size SIII FT 10-50X60 weighs 30 Oz. and the way the optical train was specced, it uses LESS lenses, the ED glass at the end is smaller and THINNER, the tube was to be made in a Mono-Tube construction (as opposed to the three parts that make up the traditional SIII.

All that presented a rough estimate of shaved weight that would approach, or undershoot 25 Oz. getting to 40 was an exercise in futility. And QUITE PROBABLY, an aspect of the "NIH (not invented here)"'Gai-Jin" mentality prevalent in some Asian companies. In the end, we can only suggest and inform what the market likely wants.

So, now, we are discussing diamond lathe-turned one piece aspherics, so that is another (now HUGE) potential weight reduction.

Technology in optics is advancing at a great pace, sometimes the details are somewhat esoteric and change completely what we would expect, or think about, but the benefits can be real if the companies decide to apply them.

Just for completion of this argument, the targeted MSRP (because I know that is a natural question to ask) was going to be in the $2,200-2,400 region. So that MOST people in the US should be able to get it for 1/3 the cost of the March, or 1/2 the cost of the Kahles.

I do agree with you, one size does not fit all, that is why variables outsell fixed mag scopes by a rather large margin.

;-)

Keep well and shoot straight!






HM
Title: Re: New (to me) Diana 48 and Beeman R9
Post by: Yogi on November 26, 2020, 08:07:05 PM
Yes, but there is a built in market for a single 16X scope.  Not even 10 X can offer that.

-Y