GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Adam L. on October 18, 2020, 06:10:14 PM
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We are seeing more Semi-Auto and Full-Auto airguns coming out, one of the main flaws i see that is keeping me from buying one is the odd rotary magazines. I would love to see a more conventional magazine type for airguns.
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The problem with bottom or top fed magazines is that the pellets would be damaged upon loading. There was a gravity fed mag recently that I’m sure was discontinued because of this . I think the more elegant solution is like the HW100/110 or the newly released EDgun semi auto where the magazine doesn’t protrude above the action. The Sig mpx with its belt type feeding would be another alternative that maybe should be explored , but with a complex setup and lots of moving parts I don’t think it’s the solution. I’m with you with thinking there’s got to be a better solution to spring actuated rotary magazines. Some out of the box thinking will be needed to overcome this one . ;)
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Good points. There is wheels that are just that. They hold the pellets. A cog and indexing system does the indexing. Good lead ins (breech) are another issue. A good lead in can make up for a lot of feeding issues. I do not see a magazine/clip fed system like a firearm working for pellets. Maybe?,... for slugs or longer slugs,............ ?
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The projectiles mostly do not lend themselves to "box" magazines.
If the owner is all about how many magazines can be emptied which often seems the case,
there is this belt-feed:
http://air-ordnance.com/guns/ (http://air-ordnance.com/guns/)
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Out of curiosity, what is the ‘problem’ with the current magazines? They serve the same purpose of firearm box mags, a spring feeds the ammo to the gun. If mags that protrude high out of the action is the problem look at the Walther line of PCPs and the Hammerli 850, also the Urban and BSA Buccaneer family of guns.
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Most PCPs have airtubes, valves in front of the trigger, it would be impossible to have a bottom loader stick mag with that configuration.
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The projectiles mostly do not lend themselves to "box" magazines.
If the owner is all about how many magazines can be emptied which often seems the case,
there is this belt-feed:
http://air-ordnance.com/guns/ (http://air-ordnance.com/guns/)
I wanted one of these a few years ago... but the problem is... I'd need to keep a pellet plant (ie: Crosman) in my backyard... LOL
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The projectiles mostly do not lend themselves to "box" magazines.
If the owner is all about how many magazines can be emptied which often seems the case,
there is this belt-feed:
http://air-ordnance.com/guns/ (http://air-ordnance.com/guns/)
I wanted one of these a few years ago... but the problem is... I'd need to keep a pellet plant (ie: Crosman) in my backyard... LOL
So did I, but resisted. A short time later, facilitated the urge with an M712. Cheap fun for a short while - have not had it out of the box in three or more years.
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Ruger has had great success with the 10/22 rotary mag. It’s greatest attribute to me is that it leaves the bottom of the rifle smooth albeit while making the stock a bit wide.
As mentioned, the design of most air rifles doesn’t allow ‘from bottom’ feeding. As such, a box mag would end up sticking out the side more than a rotary.
It does seem like one could come up with a box style (sort of) that utilized a flexible elevator that ran around a top roller (think bull dozer track). It could be spring wound at the bottom of mag. The ‘track’ could have it’s grooves shaped like the rotary mag grooves.
The high capacity 10/22 mags use something remotely similar but the spring is in the top. It is a flat wound clock type spring like a tape measure.
Dave
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The S16 has a double mag that feeds from the bottom...round double mag...I have one.
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Other than belt fed, the answer is we won't see them. Yes, it could be done for slugs, but I'm not sure that any manufacturer is going to go through the effort of developing a magazine strictly for slug use. That is, short of small or niche makers. Air gun makers all use the rotary type magazines, because they are what works for pellets. The slug trend won't necessitate a slug only magazine, until the manufacturers completely catch up with barrels/power levels that can truly capitalize on slugs imo. I could be wrong, but there really isn't a solid reason to re-invent the wheel when it comes to pellet magazines.
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The trouble with the round mags the more shot's the bigger in diameter , but they work ,... A side loading rectangular box shape with round ends with a spring loaded wheel at each end with a belt with spacers internally for pellets would work , lets call it ,and oval track mag ... ;D 20 to 40 shots would be cool
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Our Career 707s in the early 1990's had linear feed mags. Somehow the mechanism at the front of the stack grabbed the lead pellet and pulled it sideways into the breech...kinda like a Crosman 600? I don't recall, but they cycled smooth and everything, but the cocking lever effort was disproportionately humongous.
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Our Career 707s in the early 1990's had linear feed mags. Somehow the mechanism at the front of the stack grabbed the lead pellet and pulled it sideways into the breech...kinda like a Crosman 600? I don't recall, but they cycled smooth and everything, but the cocking lever effort was disproportionately humongous.
Also the Crosman 400 rifle with removable inline magazine.
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Does anyone remember the Daisy 2003 semi auto air pistol?
It had a 35 round helical mag that worked fairly well in semi auto.
Not so much as a full auto
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The projectiles mostly do not lend themselves to "box" magazines.
If the owner is all about how many magazines can be emptied which often seems the case,
there is this belt-feed:
It doesn't have to be a belt, the "Real Action Marker" type paintball guns for example use the same system of putting the projectile in a tube and eject it:
(https://i.imgur.com/qpO3JJd.gif)
There was also a conversion kit that allowed it to fire pellets or BBs (https://mcsus.com/blogs/archive/rap4-bb-pellet-airgun)
Also worth mentioning is the "Gas Machine Gun" that also used ejectable casings, it does not seem to have made it to production but it seems the prototypes are still for sale (http://fullyautomaticairgun.com/buynow).
(https://i.imgur.com/HHL3vdR.jpg)
While this can be made to work, the down side of course is that the system becomes more complex, and while ejectable shells add a "cool" factor, they are also an added consumable which also increases loading time.
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Awesome info in here guys! Learning about things that I never knew existed.
I actually like the idea of a chain/belt fed magazine, but wonder how wonky it would make a rifle that wasn't specifically designed for it. Seems you'd need either a double wide chamber hanging off of one side or a single width loop hanging off both sides. Without some serious modicification of a standard rifle this would be worse than the rotary mags.
However, with the additional space that "could" be made available in the butt of a bullpup that could be a promising concept if the other internals back there were made as narrow as possible.
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Guys
Here is a stick type mag for the Crosman type air guns, have been thinking of one for my QB SS air guns,
https://www.airgun-parts-shop.co.uk/collections/magazine-collection/products/10-shot-magazine-for-crosman-2240-2250-steel-breech (https://www.airgun-parts-shop.co.uk/collections/magazine-collection/products/10-shot-magazine-for-crosman-2240-2250-steel-breech)
Don
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A traditional magazine will not work in air guns because you will damage pellets loading them and pellets are just to small.
Steyr Hunter 5 has a interesting magazine where it is a bar with holes cut out for pellets, it looks like you put some spring tension on it because you insert and that is how the gun cycles through, the spring tension is built into the gun instead of the magazine but you only get 5 rounds with each mag in the Steyr.
I think the only way mags will work in airguns other then rotary mags is by the gun having some kind of system to cycle each round like a spring system you have to set before you insert the mag over relying full on the magazine.
I remember one of my Daisy 1911 replicas from the early 90's had a mag system where you pulled the spring back on this mag you stuck on top of the gun and then loaded the pullets and the spring would push the pellets into a chamber each time the trigger got pulled. It worked pretty well.
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Does anyone remember the Daisy 2003 semi auto air pistol?
It had a 35 round helical mag that worked fairly well in semi auto.
Not so much as a full auto
I had one of those... very little issues with its magazine...a good concept. Loved that gun
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With slugs becoming close to or even cheaper than some pellets I think we will see a shift to guns shooting mainly slugs and when that happens having magazines fitted from all directions with bullets stacked up and not in a circle will be the norm. JMHO
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The projectiles mostly do not lend themselves to "box" magazines.
If the owner is all about how many magazines can be emptied which often seems the case,
there is this belt-feed:
It doesn't have to be a belt, the "Real Action Marker" type paintball guns for example use the same system of putting the projectile in a tube and eject it:
(https://i.imgur.com/qpO3JJd.gif)
There was also a conversion kit that allowed it to fire pellets or BBs (https://mcsus.com/blogs/archive/rap4-bb-pellet-airgun)
Also worth mentioning is the "Gas Machine Gun" that also used ejectable casings, it does not seem to have made it to production but it seems the prototypes are still for sale (http://fullyautomaticairgun.com/buynow).
(https://i.imgur.com/HHL3vdR.jpg)
While this can be made to work, the down side of course is that the system becomes more complex, and while ejectable shells add a "cool" factor, they are also an added consumable which also increases loading time.
What did happen to the GMG and the Ajax bb gun?
I throught they where going to release plans and sell parts for them, but seems like nothing came out of it?
Looks like they would be a lot of fun ;D
Also there are the caselman open bolt airgun that use "normal" stick mags with slugs.
The problem is that airgun projectiles doesn't have any casing to hold it so the soft lead is easily damage especially with pellets which are quite thin.
The plastic casing is a great idea imo and can be used with darts, bb, pellets and slugs.
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What did happen to the GMG and the Ajax bb gun?
I throught they where going to release plans and sell parts for them, but seems like nothing came out of it?
I have a feeling the makers overestimated the market for the GMG vis a vis their pricing.
The Ajax website is still up (https://libertyairguns.webnode.com/about-us/) but the last updates seem to have been in 2011.
The plastic casing is a great idea imo and can be used with darts, bb, pellets and slugs.
It also evokes the possibility of a shotgun repeater, the Farco (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=150231.msg1540958#msg1540958) shotgun for example already uses little brass "shells":
(https://i.imgur.com/H8voiEJ.jpg)
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Form follows function.
As Manny mentioned, most ags are designed with their reservoir and valve in front of the trigger. Only easy way I can see to have a bottom fed magazine would be to have a line that goes from the valve around the magazine and comes up behind it. This will lead to a lot of issues, reliability being one, and unless you have a way to seal the gaps between the breech and the single pellet inside the magazine, you will have a real power problem. Because the air may push the pellet forward into the breech, but there's nothing there to make it continue pushing forward, so it will take the path of least resistance, down into the magazine. So it's quite likely you would probably end up having a pellet stuck in your barrel, and a few damaged pellets in the magazine.
Now, a gun with the reservoir in the rear such as the AF lineup, it may be possible. Still would have the problem of how to completely seal the pellet in line with the tp sending air to push it forward into the breech and not down into the magazine.
What we have works, and works well. I don't see engineers looking for a way to do something like that. What's the use of aesthetics and added capacity if the reliability isn't there because the system is complicated and wrought with issues
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I have wondered if for a compact low-capacity mag, being built into the valve above the stem wouldn't work-
Example shown is 1" valve body, .125" stem, .22" slugs; and the bore centerline .375" above the top of the valve body. Just a thought,
Jesse
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What's wrong with rotary magazines anyway ?
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What's wrong with rotary magazines anyway ?
One they are low capacity and two if they are higher capacity then you need really high scope rings to clear it. Last if you go on a long walk you have to have several extra expensive magazines in your pocket. I love how my Impact has the magazine under the gun true genius in my opinion but a magazine with 50 plus rounds isn’t out of the question with a powder burner style magazine
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What's wrong with rotary magazines anyway ?
One they are low capacity and two if they are higher capacity then you need really high scope rings to clear it. Last if you go on a long walk you have to have several extra expensive magazines in your pocket. I love how my Impact has the magazine under the gun true genius in my opinion but a magazine with 50 plus rounds isn’t out of the question with a powder burner style magazine
I guess, if we where going into battle :) :) LOL
I bring pellets with me and just reload the magazine, no need to bring a bunch of expensive magazines :) :) :)
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Preparing for a rabid squirrel charge, I suppose.
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Semi-autos.
Not thinking the original poster really cares HOW the mag. works as much as having it contain a large number of pellets.
Isn't wanting more shots in a mag endemic to semi-auto firearms.....seems logical that it would also be the urge in PCP's....and belt feed (perhaps contained in a detachable self-contined unit) for full auto.
Not that I agree with the need in an airgun....but folks want what they want,and someone out there will likely supply it.
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I can see it now. ::)
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What's wrong with rotary magazines anyway ?
One they are low capacity and two if they are higher capacity then you need really high scope rings to clear it. Last if you go on a long walk you have to have several extra expensive magazines in your pocket. I love how my Impact has the magazine under the gun true genius in my opinion but a magazine with 50 plus rounds isn’t out of the question with a powder burner style magazine
Yep, and oddly enough, the first successful modern pcp had a mag that was low in the action and fed from the top of the rotary mag as well. The HW 100. ;)
Always wondered why the industry went away from such a well thought out design.
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I can see it now. ::)
Nope, that is a rotary mag. LOL
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Here you go,...nice toy
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/sig-sauer-asp-mcx-virtus-pcp-air-rifle?m=5130 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/sig-sauer-asp-mcx-virtus-pcp-air-rifle?m=5130)
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What's wrong with rotary magazines anyway ?
One they are low capacity and two if they are higher capacity then you need really high scope rings to clear it. Last if you go on a long walk you have to have several extra expensive magazines in your pocket. I love how my Impact has the magazine under the gun true genius in my opinion but a magazine with 50 plus rounds isn’t out of the question with a powder burner style magazine
Capacity might be an issue for some, I get that, for the fun factor at least, and if one might be shooting at multiple targets in an area in quick succession.
But many guns use rotary mags and clips that are for the most part relatively low cost and easy to switch out quickly, and some are almost impossible to jam or malfunction or break, so the option is there to simply load up multiple clips, drop them into a pocket, and head out into the field, withas much ammo as one might want or think they'd need and reload. Sure, you still have to switch clips every 8-10 shots, but if a hunter in the field needs more shots than his clip can hold to drop an animal he shouldn't be using an airgun, maybe they shouldn't be in the field hunting animals either. Just my humble opinion.
Now, if a gun were developed to use high capacity non rotary mag that functions flawlessly and reliably I'd be willing to give it a try. But as things are I'm content with what we've got so far.
You never know, what your thinking about might already be an idea rattling around in some distant engineers cranial cavity.
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OK so lets look at a different design going away from the vast majority of PCPs on the market today.
AR style like the SIG but rather then a bottle the buttstock is made by a series of tubes like the Leshiy II ( much better to keep the cheek weld low )
Now a Firearm style magazine is possible in front of the trigger, the trick is to make it reliable.
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Our Career 707s in the early 1990's had linear feed mags. Somehow the mechanism at the front of the stack grabbed the lead pellet and pulled it sideways into the breech...kinda like a Crosman 600? I don't recall, but they cycled smooth and everything, but the cocking lever effort was disproportionately humongous.
Also the Crosman 400 rifle with removable inline magazine.
The biggest issue I have with the Crosman 400 inline (or "stacked") style is that you can only use wadcutters. Otherwise the following pellet's nose will stick inside the leading pellet's skirt and prevent it from moving sideways.
I really wish I could have worded that differently.
???
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Inline magazines like the Career ones required to re-tune the loading shuttle if you changed pellets length, also didn't hold any more pellets then the current circular ones.
I did like them tho, because you didn't need to cock the gun to insert the mag.